From low cost airline to executive aviation

[a-ricky-town]

Hi everyone!

I am starting to explore the executive aviation industry with the purpose of changing careers but honestly I do not quite know where to start as this is a segment I have never been interested in.

Currently I am an SFO in an orange lo-co European airline and should start my command process next year but to be honest the prospect of flying the 320 back and forth always to the same destinations until I retire is not enticing at all.

I am completely unaware about the peculiarities of this job market other than is more volatile and unpredictable than the airlines so any help would be greatly appreciated: blogs, websites, pprune threads or your own personal advice, everything I can sit and read thouroughly.

My age is 42 and I have total of 3700h of which 3500h on the 320.

Many thanks in advance!

[GlenQuagmire]

don’t even consider it without your command and some time in the left seat. Even then I would definitely not recommend it. It is impossible to convey quite how precarious the business jet job market is and you would be jumping from a solid career to endless uncertainty. If you want more exciting flying why don’t you move to a more exciting company?

[SaulGoodman]

Why don’t you consider the cargo biz if you don’t want to fly the same routes over and over again? Or perhaps an outfit like HiFly?

[a-ricky-town]

Thanks GQ. Looking for some excitement lead me to exec av but if the market is so precarious I am not willing to make the move then.

I was under the impression that with so many airlines/countries needing pilots that would also have a positive impact on the business aviation conditions.

Believe me, this segment is a totally new option to me.

Thanks again for the feedback!
:)

EDIT:

Thanks SG, actually talking to people what keeps me going :} If you put me in a plane full of boxes I am not sure I am gonna enjoy it... :)

[SaulGoodman]

Up to you mate. But I can honoustly say definately no passenger flying for me anymore. Exec biz might be good, but personally I would only do it for the big companies that have there own fleet, like BP, Shell, VW, Daimler etc. Not for a company like netjets or vistajey. Way to insecure!

[a-ricky-town]

And these companies who have their own fleet, how do they recruit? do they work with any contractor?

[EatMyShorts!]

Not for a company like netjets or vistajey. Way to insecure!Insecure in what way?

[Dan_Brown]

Insecure in what way?

Netjets Eu put a lot of crews off a few years back. Bombadia/Flexjet EU recruited crews for the start-up in Europe. 2 years later they pulled the plug and left the crews high and dry.

[His dudeness]

Up to you mate. But I can honoustly say definately no passenger flying for me anymore. Exec biz might be good, but personally I would only do it for the big companies that have there own fleet, like Daimler etc. Not for a company like netjets or vistajey. Way to insecure!

You might wanna do some research on that one. I know for sure that they thought they were having a secure job....

[Hodin]

[...] the prospect of flying the 320 back and forth always to the same destinations until I retire is not enticing at all. [...]

Depending on what type of operation you end up in GA this could be exactly the same without the more secure background of a big airline.

If you fly for an owner exclusively it could be that he is going between a hand full places 90% of the time, f.ex. home in UK, yacht in Nice, summer house in Ibiza. Thats it.
The other 10%, which is not much considering you will be only flying about 300h TT per year, are other destinations like ski holiday once per year, race track visits, wedding anniversary for a weekend.

It will be more diverse in a charter only operation, but again, rich people tend to go where other rich people are - and you end up in the same places with some new places inbetween.
And all that for the cost of a more secure job at an airline.

I met several guys that cut their airline job to somewhat 50% and went freelance GA flying during the other 50%. Maybe thats an option for you as well.

[a-ricky-town]

Thanks Hodin for your insight. I get the feeling this market is not as fulfilling as I thought it was going to be and way more precaurious than I originally foresaw. I will have to reassess my priorities and find an aviation model that suits my interests.

Cheers! :)

[Aso]

Netjets Eu put a lot of crews off a few years back. Ehh unless you were french or belgium thanks to your local laws yes you are right. All others were treated extremely well after 2008 including job shares etc... So agree that the local operator around the corner might be insecure but NJE is not on that list in my book!

[Proline21]

Don't do it before you got your CMD in the A320 and plenty of hours PIC. Even then, consider the move very carefully.

Business Aviation can be the job of your dream on a fancy Global Express or Gulfstream and takes you to the most beautiful places, 5 star hotels and on top of that a great salary...

Reality for most Bizav pilots is the exact opposite. Most fly on smaller jets such as Citations, Embraer Phenom, King Air, etc and barely make a living from that. Lots of freelancers that compete for days and drive down the daily rates. Most smaller outfits are too small to participate with the bigger charter companies and it's a race to the bottom condition and even safetywise.

Plus - without any offense - many Airline pilots that flew Boeings or Airbusses before assume, that this experience will lead to immediate Gulfstream, Global Express or Falcon epmployment or even BBJ/ACJ jobs. The reality could be that these guys need to work their way up starting on a smaller jet, possibly with self paid training.

If you really consider it, I would try to go part time with your current job (if that's even possible), try some networking or even consider to buy a cheap typerating (King Air, Cessna Citation, XLS, etc) to get started. Knock on a few doors and get a foot into the world of Business Aviation.

Needless to say that you might have to book your own hotels, arrange transportation, arrange maintenance enroute (oil, oxygen, tire svc), print (or even plan) your flightplans, pay handling fees, arrange fueling, arrange permits, arrange (or buy or even create) catering, buy magazines/newspapers/flowers/alcohol/toys,whatever... for VIP clients, download and install NAV updates on board, update and charge iPads, do online training while in the hotel - and that all is done before you even get to fly the thing... Imagine that with a fresh CPL graduate doing his first rotation with you, with a very demanding client on board, marginal weather into funny planes such as Samedan, Cannes, Sion or Chambery (where you have never been before)... and don't forget the broker who calls you every 15 minutes to ask you if the aircraft is ready :) And that you do on every day while on duty for 7-15 days in a row for less pay than you make with your current job.

cheers

[dirk85]

I have been in business aviation for 6 years, and now in the same orange loco as you, also close to be upgraded.

Very simple: DO NOT DO IT, the grass in not always greener on the other side. Easyjet, especially if based in France, Italy or Germany, is one hell of an employer, and you would be mad to give up an upgrade there. Aside from KLM, Air France and LH you probably have one of the best gigs available in Europe, money and overall conditions wise.

[Aso]

PS: this I agree with :8

Don't do it before you got your CMD in the A320 and plenty of hours PIC. Even then, consider the move very carefully.

[Phalare]

Why is everyone so negative ?

Surely an airline career is better in terms of job security and for the money but if he is not happy and willing for a new challenge then why not GA ?
From my small experience there are all kind of GA companies / owners / contracts... Hard do make a general statement on roster, job conditions, destinations..
But if you are lucky enough you can find the contract thats fits you, with a decent roster, homebase, salary and exciting operations...

Only hard thing will probably be to learn how to deal with changes all the time and to do everything by yourself as Proline21 said... But that's part of the charm of the job isnt it ? ;)

Good luck anyways !

[His dudeness]

One thing is for sure:

nothing is sure. I started in business aviation 29 years ago and EVERYTHING was different then. Just as with the airlines. And the changes won´t stop.

[GlenQuagmire]

We could jobshare. You can come and fly the global for a month and I will bus billies around. At least I would get home now and again!

I bet you would miss your table..

[a-ricky-town]

Proline21, many thanks for your thorough and detailed answer, plenty of food for thought and frankly an "eye-opener"
dirk85, I have come to that conclusion as well, I'd rather stay where I am now and assess the situation later on. Thanks :)
Phalare, in theory I should agree with you but now I feel quite "scared" about the overview I am getting from almost everyone
GlenQuagmire, I wouldn't mind jobsharing but the table is something I would really hate to lose! :8 :) Thanks, mate

[Daddy Fantastic]

Depending on what type of operation you end up in GA this could be exactly the same without the more secure background of a big airline.

If you fly for an owner exclusively it could be that he is going between a hand full places 90% of the time, f.ex. home in UK, yacht in Nice, summer house in Ibiza. Thats it.
The other 10%, which is not much considering you will be only flying about 300h TT per year, are other destinations like ski holiday once per year, race track visits, wedding anniversary for a weekend.

It will be more diverse in a charter only operation, but again, rich people tend to go where other rich people are - and you end up in the same places with some new places inbetween.
And all that for the cost of a more secure job at an airline.

I met several guys that cut their airline job to somewhat 50% and went freelance GA flying during the other 50%. Maybe thats an option for you as well.

300 hours a year.....PERFECT!!!

[what next]

300 hours a year.....PERFECT!!!

200 would be even more perfect ;-) Doing my 300 hours per year I alredy feel exploited by my employer...

But kidding apart, I have never encoutered this "the-grass-is/may-be-greener-somewhere-else" attitude as much as in the aviation community. Everybody seems to be more busy looking at what he might miss than to actually enjoy what he has. In my previous occupations everyone was more or less content with what he had and organised his life around it. I must have been the only excemption because I would look at the contrails outside the window and dream of flying while the project manager displayed endless powerpoints about the distribution of man-hours across our tasks on hand.

So really we should be glad that we are among the few (compared to the masses of people confined to the four walls of their offices) who are actually paid for being up there. 200 hours per year or 800 does make a little difference, but the real big difference is in up or down in the first place. And we already are part of the "up" minority. That alone should make us happy.

As I have never been in an airline I cannot really answer the basic question in this thread. From my (very!) personal point of view, business aviation beats airline flying by a wide margin. But all the comparisons I have are actually other people's experience. As already written above, no two jobs in business aviation are the same. There are awful ones and there are terrific ones - just as with the airlines. What an individual considers as "awful" and what as "terrific" is so totally different that I sometimes can hardly believe what I hear... Personally, I hate commuting and proceeding very much (lifetime destroyed completely) and living in hotels for more than one night per week (lifetime partly lost). This is because in my previous life I got used to work close to where I live, started a family there, bought a house, joined local communities, etc. Being moved from base to base depending on passenger numbers (as some airlines did to former pilot buddies of mine) would kill everything that I value in life, as would rosters like 15/15 or 19/11 or what else most companies have on offer that operate the real "sexy" bizjets. But again, without wife and family and no house and no local connections, maybe the money and the adventure would win?

A few thoughts about what has been said so far:

- Fly for a company that has no connection with aviation: 100% agreement. Your job will be totally independent of the job situation in the aviation market. Airlines laying off pilots? Why should I worry as long as people keep buying sports goods (in case my employer makes them or or deals with them - just an example). A real big number of companies have their own flying department without anyone much knowing about that. Just look at what is tucked inside the hangers opposite from the passenger terminals. Like my employer whose name no one seems to have ever heard. The problem is that it is very diffiult to get into this kind of occupation because jobs are not advertised. When I will retire one day (in a private operation this will either be when I want to retire or when the doctor finally says no!) my successor will be chosen or at least proposed to the boss by me.
- If you want to fly for a commercial bizjet operator choose wisely. There are good ones and bad ones, just like in the airline world. NetJets have already been mentioned. I have heard bad things told about many companies but never about them. If you can live with a 6 days on / 5 days off roster (I can't - still way too many nights spent in hotel rooms) and the fact that it will take you something like 9 years to make left seat (no matter how many hours you had when you joined and whether you were captain before or not) then this would be the first choice. You don't even need to be upgraded in your current company because it won't matter anyway.
- The fancy destinations? Nice with one's girlfriend/wife/family, but with that stupid idiot of first officer certainly not. This is one of the main differences between airline and bizjet: In the airline, you fly with someone different every day. In a bizjet it might be the same guy/lady for years and years. If you don't get along with them, the situation can be quite annoying.
- The flying itself? Bizjets and airliners are flown the same way basically: By the autopilot. Watch it do it's job and look down at the overcast. From 10,000ft higher in a bizjet than in an airliner, but clouds look the same from every height. Occasionally in business aviation we go to a destination with no instrument approach and difficult topography, where real flying skills are required. These are the moments worth living for and because of which I would never swap jobs with an airline guy who flies from CAT III airport to CAT III airport :-)
- Job sharing: This might actually be an opportunity for an airline pilot. I know quite a few collegues from the airline who reduced their employment to part-time, bought themselves a Citation rating and fly one or two days per week in the business aviation world. It might be wotrh asking that orange-coloured employer about it. After a couple of years one could maybe make a final choice, having known both worlds by then.

Happy landings
Max

[a-ricky-town]

Thank you very much what next for your extensive and deep message. I actually feel attracted for a more "hands on" operation as with my airline job I am given all done, having said that, the general consensus says that conditions in bizav are less than ideal unless you find one of those rare employers.

I have decided to postpone it for the time being and maybe in the future, before I quit flying for good, I will give it a go.

Thanks everybody for you input, it has been crucial to help me make a decision.

All the best!

:)

[Private jet]

- Job sharing: This might actually be an opportunity for an airline pilot. I know quite a few collegues from the airline who reduced their employment to part-time, bought themselves a Citation rating and fly one or two days per week in the business aviation world. It might be wotrh asking that orange-coloured employer about it. After a couple of years one could maybe make a final choice, having known both worlds by then.

Happy landings

That's right, encourage airline "moonlighting" and water down the T's & C's for us even more. Who's side are you on?? . Happy landings....

[DCThumb]

300 hours a year.....PERFECT!!!

That’s 300 flying hours. Many of them might be fly out, sit around for several days, Fly back. The 300 hours might actually represent more time away from home/family than a busy airline, if that’s important to you

[josephfeatherweight]

...but the table is something I would really hate to lose!
Gettin' one of those nice tables in the 7500... :E

[what next]

That's right, encourage airline "moonlighting" and water down the T's & C's for us even more. Who's side are you on?? . Happy landings....

Myself I fly part-time in business aviation so that I can freelance as a flying instructor in my spare time. Does that mean that I ruin the T's&C's of the flying school business?
There are lots of freelancers in the bizjet world. It has alsways been like this for as long as I can remember. Many of them have another profession or another job beside it. What does it matter if that other job is "musician", "dentist" or "airline pilot"?

[Private jet]

Myself I fly part-time in business aviation so that I can freelance as a flying instructor in my spare time. Does that mean that I ruin the T's&C's of the flying school business?
There are lots of freelancers in the bizjet world. It has alsways been like this for as long as I can remember. Many of them have another profession or another job beside it. What does it matter if that other job is "musician", "dentist" or "airline pilot"?

Yes I know. I was a part timer myself for several years & I had another income well away from aviation. (I still am a part timer now but without the other income haha) My point was badly worded. Any increase in supply over demand will push down wages, so we don't really want to encourage people into our little world do we? Besides, many (but to be fair not all) airline pilots are boring to fly with. Give me a musician or dentist or porn actress anyday! They are much more interesting people to work and chat with in the main (Actually the last one was one of our flight attendants but you get the idea)

[Marlon Brando]

....
. Give me a musician or dentist or porn actress anyday! They are much more interesting people to work and chat with in the main (Actually the last one was one of our flight attendants but you get the idea)

Does she freelance sometimes ?
we use freelancers a lot as F/A

[Dan_Brown]

Private Jet.

I prefer the PC discription, Exotic Actress. Porn, makes it sound so smutty.

[Flying Mechanic]

I went airline to corporate back in 2009. Took unpaid leave from the airline and never looked back. My plan was if all else failed I could go back and fly an airbus . Before you make the leap , really network and reach out to as many people as you can . Where do you want to live in the world?

[Flying Mechanic]

Also as said before , get your command. Even in Asia where I am based , you could easily wait 5 years for a left seat job.

[a-ricky-town]

Well, I love Europe so moving to another continent is not on my agenda. Regarding the Command I am not in any rush neither here with the A320 nor if I went to Executive aviation unless the environment in that segment wasn't as good as it is with my current orange employer, in which case I would be more prone to move quickly to the left seat.

In all these weeks I have been reading and gathering info about this market but most importantly I have been fine tuning my motivations and I can clearly say now that what I am looking for is just "more fun", excitement, variety, "hands on" operation, closer contact to customers, more of a pilot and less of a number, etc....The A320 pays the bills but honestly I can't see myself doing that until retirement. I find no excitement in the way I fly now so sooner or later I will make some sort of "move".

For the time being I will stay here, will save some money and consolidate my financial situation, maybe get myself a small jet type rating, I totally LOVE the Pilatus PC24 and its amazing versatility, and in the future either I request unpaid leave or look for a way to get closer to bizav. All this with the utmost respect for the fellow pilots already in this segment and my commitment to make sure that my entry into this field does not harm nor promotes the devaluation of the T&Cs of this business.

Thanks again everyone for your valuable contribution to this thread :)

FCC

[FlyTCI]

With the high likelihood of an economic downturn in the next 1 to 2 years I would highly advice you to sit still in your orange seat, which will protect you much better from being out on the streets during a downturn vs the very sensitive corporate scene. Coming from a life long corporate guy.

[chr]

you know guys what funny me a lot ?
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...

[FlyTCI]

you know guys what funny me a lot ?
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ...

You may want to check out the currently ongoing live ECB broadcast of their monetary policy meeting. Not very optimistic, at least not in terms of the Euro areas economic conditions.

But I guess it’s easier to bury your head in the sand and not consider potential pitfalls by making a big career move as discussed here.

[Duca]

you know guys what funny me a lot ?
that nothing seems to be happen in next 1-2 years , of course everything can happen but nothing special , everything is quite good and I have full of worries that crisis you mentioned will come only because of more and more people are talking about it , that’s it , nothing more , only speculations ... Didn’t age well… 😂

[stilton]

Don't do it before you got your CMD in the A320 and plenty of hours PIC. Even then, consider the move very carefully.

Business Aviation can be the job of your dream on a fancy Global Express or Gulfstream and takes you to the most beautiful places, 5 star hotels and on top of that a great salary...

Reality for most Bizav pilots is the exact opposite. Most fly on smaller jets such as Citations, Embraer Phenom, King Air, etc and barely make a living from that. Lots of freelancers that compete for days and drive down the daily rates. Most smaller outfits are too small to participate with the bigger charter companies and it's a race to the bottom condition and even safetywise.

Plus - without any offense - many Airline pilots that flew Boeings or Airbusses before assume, that this experience will lead to immediate Gulfstream, Global Express or Falcon epmployment or even BBJ/ACJ jobs. The reality could be that these guys need to work their way up starting on a smaller jet, possibly with self paid training.

If you really consider it, I would try to go part time with your current job (if that's even possible), try some networking or even consider to buy a cheap typerating (King Air, Cessna Citation, XLS, etc) to get started. Knock on a few doors and get a foot into the world of Business Aviation.

Needless to say that you might have to book your own hotels, arrange transportation, arrange maintenance enroute (oil, oxygen, tire svc), print (or even plan) your flightplans, pay handling fees, arrange fueling, arrange permits, arrange (or buy or even create) catering, buy magazines/newspapers/flowers/alcohol/toys,whatever... for VIP clients, download and install NAV updates on board, update and charge iPads, do online training while in the hotel - and that all is done before you even get to fly the thing... Imagine that with a fresh CPL graduate doing his first rotation with you, with a very demanding client on board, marginal weather into funny planes such as Samedan, Cannes, Sion or Chambery (where you have never been before)... and don't forget the broker who calls you every 15 minutes to ask you if the aircraft is ready :) And that you do on every day while on duty for 7-15 days in a row for less pay than you make with your current job.

cheers


This is why I never wanted anything to do with business aviation, it’s good that it suits some but airline flying was much better for me

[Moonwalker]

This is why I never wanted anything to do with business aviation, it’s good that it suits some but airline flying was much better for me

It depends what you compare it to. Joining outfits like Netjets, Flexjet or Vistajet is more like working for an airline but flying a business jet. All you have to think about is flying the plane (but to a greater variety of airports and everything that comes with doing so). It's just a different lifestyle and usually offers you a better flexibility in terms of where to live. Airlines are usually only good long term if you live or want to live where you have your base. Airlines rarely offers rosters liks 6/5, 7/6, 10/8, 17/13, 14/14 etc. That said, for most trained pilots. Business jet flying is not ideal to their type of personality. When I flew in the airlines I had a feeling that the majority of people were more of the bureaucratic type. They don't like the unknown. They want something predictable which they can plan days in advance. While my impression of my colleagues in the business jet sector is that they embrace the unknown and like the variety and challenges that comes with it. So in the end it comes down to how you are as a person.

[stilton]

It depends what you compare it to. Joining outfits like Netjets, Flexjet or Vistajet is more like working for an airline but flying a business jet. All you have to think about is flying the plane (but to a greater variety of airports and everything that comes with doing so). It's just a different lifestyle and usually offers you a better flexibility in terms of where to live. Airlines are usually only good long term if you live or want to live where you have your base. Airlines rarely offers rosters liks 6/5, 7/6, 10/8, 17/13, 14/14 etc. That said, for most trained pilots. Business jet flying is not ideal to their type of personality. When I flew in the airlines I had a feeling that the majority of people were more of the bureaucratic type. They don't like the unknown. They want something predictable which they can plan days in advance. While my impression of my colleagues in the business jet sector is that they embrace the unknown and like the variety and challenges that comes with it. So in the end it comes down to how you are as a person.


I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe


I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few



There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans

[Klimax]

I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe


I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few



There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans

I think the poster might have slightly confused bureaucratic types with ridged types. I´ve spend half of my almost 30 year commercial pilot career with 3 airlines, of which were 2 "legacy". The other half have more or less been in Biz aviation, albeit the "large cabin" segment of the industry.

Each to his own - for sure. But, I can truly say that I find it much more enjoyable to participate and be part of a "proper" biz jet operation, with all the support functions in place, than it is to be flying an airliner around - which is simply too boring for some of us. There is a much larger span from good to bad operations in biz aviation for sure. In the "large segment" private operations we of have very predictable rotations (eg. 16 on / 14 off (as guaranteed as the airlines - almost!)., where you end up spending a couple of weeks in locations where the wealthy (monetarily speaking!) clients (owners) relax it out. Sit it out, eat, drink, explore, sunbath. Most decent clients have a schedule, so yeah you´re on standby, but you also know the habits.
I´ve never cleaned a toilets on an airplane and I´ve spend more days doing airport standby in the airline, than I ever have in Biz Av. I do load the baggage of both the crew and pax.
The "equipment" that I fly (not that I care to much anymore) is so much more technologically advanced and fun - than any of the airliners I´ve ever flown.

The only airline operations that offer better overall CoS are the legacy ones. The likes of Easyjet, Wizz etc. don´t get where we are in large segment of biz av. You´re right we don´t generally have most of "other" benefits, such as insurances, retirement plans etc., this is compensated directly via the salary, which gives you the influence of how you prefer to invest.
When it comes to uncertainties - I don´t really know. Seniority lists (when followed!) only protects you that much. When you´re qualified in the biz av, it´s not that hard to find another position (even if just tempo).

[TheAirMission]

I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe


I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few



There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans

Sounds like someone doesnt really know the biz industry that well, or worked for really sketchy operators.

[dirk85]

Sounds like someone doesnt really know the biz industry that well, or worked for really sketchy operators.

The problem is that you don’t want to work for 80%, if not more, of the operators currently flying in Europe. Sketchy doesn’t even start to describe them.
Not everyone works for Netjets.

The odds are better, not by much but still, in the airlines world.

[EatMyShorts!]

That's the unfortunate truth. Unless you get into one of the more organized companies, I'd stay out. You may have to spend some limited time with some bizjet operator to build hours, but you should not stay with them, they will just ruin your character and your aviation habits.

[Moonwalker]

The problem is that you don’t want to work for 80%, if not more, of the operators currently flying in Europe. Sketchy doesn’t even start to describe them.
Not everyone works for Netjets.

The odds are better, not by much but still, in the airlines world.

But that goes for the airlines as well doesn't it? How many good airlines are there left in Europe? Just a handful at most.

[Moonwalker]

I don’t remember too many ‘bureaucratic types’ at the airline I flew for and there were plenty of unknown challenges and variety on every single trip flying on a route system that spanned the globe


I’ve heard this mindset promoted before from pilots in the business jet community who try to rationalize the job benefits of flying into a greater variety of sub par airports, loading their passengers bags, emptying the aircraft toilets, hanging around at the airport all day waiting for the boss who expects no limit to their duty day and always being on call to name just a few



There’s simply no comparison to the airlines who offer greater benefits, much higher pay, bigger, more comfortable equipment with proper crew rest facilities, significantly greater choices in predictable monthly schedules with days off that are guaranteed and better vacation and retirement plans

All I can say is that I've seen both the airline and business jet side of this industry and the challenges I face in the day to day ops in a long range business jet is not even comparable to the ones I experienced in the airlines. If you want an easy life. Stay in the airlines.

I had much more airport stand by with my airlines compared to my business jet "airline". I haven't had an airport stand by for as long as I remember. Either you fly or you don't.

I've never emptied a toilet on my business jet

What I mean with bureaucratic types is that I've seen plenty of airline guys joining and some see it as they've finally found their home and others don't last more than 6 months. Their mindset is too rigid and close-minded.

[Duca]

That's the unfortunate truth. Unless you get into one of the more organized companies, I'd stay out. You may have to spend some limited time with some bizjet operator to build hours, but you should not stay with them, they will just ruin your character and your aviation habits.
How many hours as PIC would you suggest to accumulate before jumping from airline to biz jet, just in case something goes wrong and I might want to get back to airlining?

[EatMyShorts!]

How many hours as PIC would you suggest to accumulate before jumping from airline to biz jet, just in case something goes wrong and I might want to get back to airlining?
Well, for the that you need to know what your fallback options would be. How many hours do they want as minimum? And also be aware that you will most likely go back to the airlines at the bottom of the queue, as first officer.

In my opinion the best way to become a professional bizjet pilot is to first start with the airlines, lots of flying, lots of situations, then join the biz aviation. This way you will learn the proper way how to safely operate an aircraft and a crew. People who started on bizjets can be a bit cowboy-style ("let me show you something").

[Duca]

Well, for the that you need to know what your fallback options would be. How many hours do they want as minimum? And also be aware that you will most likely go back to the airlines at the bottom of the queue, as first officer.

In my opinion the best way to become a professional bizjet pilot is to first start with the airlines, lots of flying, lots of situations, then join the biz aviation. This way you will learn the proper way how to safely operate an aircraft and a crew. People who started on bizjets can be a bit cowboy-style ("let me show you something"). Got it! Thank you!

[dirk85]

But that goes for the airlines as well doesn't it? How many good airlines are there left in Europe? Just a handful at most.

Not as bad. There are still all the majors and a few charters and low cost that make a decent % of the planes flying around, with more than decent conditions. While I cannot think of more than a couple of business jets companies where I wouldn't mind to fly.
And I have seen both worlds, from both seats.

[flylevel390]

Interesting thread. Fits quite nicely to my current dilemma. Maybe one can give me a career advice.

I'm really a GA guy (lots of private flying in my past). Now I have been offered a job in a reputable corporate jet company in Europe and also Eurowings too....

I would start on a Citation with the possibility to a upgrade to a Gulfstream later on (they pay for everything...). This job opportunity really motivates me and I'm glad I got the offer.
And then there is Eurowings (A320)... Better pay, more routine, more stress (block time per y), of course all the benefits you get with the airlines, but maybe more boredom in the end?

What do you think? Should I go for the more interesting, reputable corporate gig or take the option with more money and join the airlines?
Thanks in advance.

[TheAirMission]

Interesting thread. Fits quite nicely to my current dilemma. Maybe one can give me a career advice.

I'm really a GA guy (lots of private flying in my past). Now I have been offered a job in a reputable corporate jet company in Europe and also Eurowings too....

I would start on a Citation with the possibility to a upgrade to a Gulfstream later on (they pay for everything...). This job opportunity really motivates me and I'm glad I got the offer.
And then there is Eurowings (A320)... Better pay, more routine, more stress (block time per y), of course all the benefits you get with the airlines, but maybe more boredom in the end?

What do you think? Should I go for the more interesting, reputable corporate gig or take the option with more money and join the airlines?
Thanks in advance.

The Corporate job must be pretty low pay if Eurowings will be better pay, is that guranteed or just based on average block hours at EW? If you're a private guy and this is your first airline job offer, is it worth the risk, have you spoke to anyone within EW ops that gives you the low down of the work lifestyle there. Also, how does it work with your commute from home, which is better for you?

[global2express]

From personal experience, 90% of what's promised during a business aviation interview will never happen: you'll most likely stay on the Citation, you'll be on standby 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there won't be any career progression, you'll be asked to fly broken airplanes, and if you refuse, you'll most likely get fired. Take the Eurowings job—it's not great but it's a start.

I would start on a Citation with the possibility to a upgrade to a Gulfstream later on (they pay for everything...).

[TheAirMission]

From personal experience, 90% of what is promised during an interview in business aviation will never happen: you'll most likely stay on the Citation, you'll be on standby 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there won't be any career progression, you'll be asked to fly broken airplanes, and if you refuse, you'll most likely get fired. Take the Eurowings job—it's not great but it's a start.

The big operators such as NetJets/FlexJet etc do not have 24/7 standbys, my roster is fixed 6 on 5 off. Considering the outfit has citations and gulfstreams, I assume its one of the bigger operators. Don't paint the whole industry with your personal experience brush.

[EatMyShorts!]

If an airline would bore you, go for the corporate gig. Have you tried Netjets Europe, Flexjet Europe? NJE is accepting applications at the moment, until January 16, so hurry up.

[global2express]

Point taken. flylevel390 take the Eurowings job, unless you got an offer with a confirmed start date from NetJets (it might take 12+ months between application and actual employment).

[flylevel390]

Eurowings pays around 65k before taxes.. Coporate gig would be -15% (roughly). That would be enough for normal living expenses.
No, there is no 24/7/365 standby there, they have got a stable roster and there would be also the opportunity to move on to NJE if this gig doesn't suit, when TT>1500h (for FOs), if I understood the requirements at NJE correctly.

TheAirMission No minimum block hours at EW. Commuting is a factor. Here the corp gig wins I would say....

EatMyShorts! I don't see any open positions for NJE Europe! Only for the US (plus the 1500h TT requirement).

[EatMyShorts!]

EatMyShorts! I don't see any open positions for NJE Europe! Only for the US (plus the 1500h TT requirement).
It is being discussed in the parallel thread about Netjets Europe: https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/642679-netjets-europe-hiring-again-23.html#post11572267

https://kuraairlineresourcing.co.uk/netjets/

In any case, if you do not have the correct amount of hours right now, subscribe to Kura Aviation on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/kura-airline-resourcing/) to receive a notification when Netjets Europe will be hiring again. NJE is requesting at least 1500h TT, including 500h multi-pilot on multi-engine aircraft, see the website in the paragraph before.

[stilton]

All I can say is that I've seen both the airline and business jet side of this industry and the challenges I face in the day to day ops in a long range business jet is not even comparable to the ones I experienced in the airlines. If you want an easy life. Stay in the airlines.

I had much more airport stand by with my airlines compared to my business jet "airline". I haven't had an airport stand by for as long as I remember. Either you fly or you don't.

I've never emptied a toilet on my business jet

What I mean with bureaucratic types is that I've seen plenty of airline guys joining and some see it as they've finally found their home and others don't last more than 6 months. Their mindset is too rigid and close-minded.


I definitely want the easiest life possible, why would you deliberately choose a more difficult career with far less pay, benefits and lifestyle ?


I certainly had enough hard times in aviation working for unscrupulous operators before I had the experience necessary to work for an airline


I sat ‘airport standby’ about half a dozen times total in a 23 year airline career


When I was flying freight many years ago I saw business jet pilots sitting around in FBOs all the time, waiting all day for the boss to return


Airline pilots are no more ‘rigid and closed minded’ than other pilots


On the other hand they are used to a highly organized, very large organization with a high level of support, well maintained aircraft and union labor contracts that look out for their interests


That is a very good thing

[EatMyShorts!]

On the other hand they are used to a highly organized, very large organization with a high level of support, well maintained aircraft and union labor contracts that look out for their interests
Exactly what outfits like Netjets and Flexjet offer. An airline like operation of aircraft that are far more fun to fly and operate than those dull Boeings and Airbus'. I jumped from the airlines to biz aviation exactly 20 years ago and do not regret it a single second! Some people are made for airlines with a fixed set of destinations that they can prepare for hours, days, weeks before they fly there, or they'd feel uncomfortable. Others would get bored to death by this and prefer a more dynamic environment. And, yes, there are many GA operators that are great to start your career with, but you'll need to jump **** ASAP to advance your career and life. We are not talking about those jobs. We are talking about jobs in GA that pay well, that don't make you sit on standby on a regular basis, that offer a stable roster and enough rest time and that stick to the rules and regulations.

[His dudeness]

I´ll be the devils advocate, sorta...

If you care looking at an increasingly unpleasant passenger crowd at the finger and never really see and have time to explore foreign cities and countries - then the airline is the way to go. A lot offer even being home every night. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your day?" ", "well Postion 493 at FRA to Gate24 in Mallorca and back, then had the police come and take a unruly drunkard off my aircraft, then I flew to Edinburgh and back with even more drunks on board"

If you like to meet (some) interesting people and are an explorer - go to the business jet side of things. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your week ? "Well monday mornin I flew to Cairo and visited the pyramids, courtesy of the company, then I had dinner with the boss in the 5 Star Hotel we stayed in and the next day, at a civilized hour, we took off for Accra in Ghana, stayed 2 nights in a 5 Star with a fantastic pool and restaurant poolside and then we took of for Fez at 0900 in the morning and visited the medina and had lamb with humus in the evening under a full moon. Next day we took of at 1400 back home, then I did a toilet service, catered the airplane up, put it in the hangar, checked the oil and tire pressure, did my paperwork, the flight planning for the next big trip, hugged the aircraft and wished it a good rest, closed the hangar doors and now I´m here to be at home for 6 days before we go flying again - if the company does not change its mind, that is..."

Thats my take on my work life in a corporate flight department these days. Business aviation is a multifacetted world, very few operations are like the one next door, just like Ryanair is - I guess - really different than say Lufthansa.

[Enigma01]

I would think very deeply before making that move to the GA. Been there myself for 9 years. I must admit, i did not fly for a well known outfit with big shiny privet jets and was flying a small jet. The good thing is you see a lot. We were flying to places that you would normally never visit. But like everything, novelty wears off after a while and you start thinking about other things that are getting more important to you. Lifestyle, roster, money, social life and yes, having hobbies without being disturbed.

Afterwards i joined the airline. First pax airline, then cargo airline. BEST CHOICE EVER!!!!!! I must admit: it is also not all that perfect and sometimes tedious. Yes we do fly all the time the same routes and yes, sometimes i miss those GA flights to these odd places. But the quality of life i have now: much better and much more stability.

I would say it is for an outsider difficult to get in GA and flying immediate a Gulfstream or Global express. The best GA jobs are simply not advertised and it is all about connections. You will high likely start at the bottom, like a citation or king air (which can be also fun!!!). You will get to see the bits and pieces and everything that involves GA. And you have to be extreme flexible and planning your private life is almost impossible. As a younster who is fresh in the job this is not hard, but for an old timer like me......:bored:.
Most of the GA outfits are just crap. You simply dont want to work for them. Low salary and they push you all the time. In the end, it is just work. Nothing more. Perhaps 1 exception: Netjets. In general i hear a lot of goods stuff about them. But i must warn you. Even though Netjets is a great place, if you ever get made redundant, you are left behind with a useless typerating. So make sure you keep yourself current on that Airbus/Boeing.

My best advice is to stay with your airline gig. Try to go parttime and explore GA as an freelancer. Betting on 2 horses never hurts.

[His dudeness]

Interesting thread. Fits quite nicely to my current dilemma. Maybe one can give me a career advice.

Sure, but do you honestly think that one of us has the knowledge what YOU really like best ? How old you are ? What the circumstances of either operator really are? How much fun you need to have in the workplace to be happy outside of it ? Thats fairly individual... and there is much more.

One thing that has sometimes great bearing on you as an employee, is how you are covered in case of illness - you know, not the flu, but something that might put you out of action and your medical so long that you`d have to renew you rating as an example. Thats where you USUALLY are better covered in a bigger operation or as the employee of a company with a workers council. Is loss of license included or paid for in case you have your own ? OTOH I have a friend who started his airline flying after been lucky enough to have flown a KingAir - then, when is seniority number as a co was #2, the place (Aero-Lloyd in EDDF) closed shop, he went to LTU, was scheduled for a command a few years on, then....LTU went bust. Moved to Air Berlin, the same play unfolded, he nowadays flies for a Spanish outfit, which seems to be...welll.....not the very best place to work. But he made his fourth stripe there finally, after about 25 yrs in Aviation. That could happen to you - and if you are in a big company that goes bust, suddenly you are swept out of the place with HUNDREDS of your fellow airman....Eurowings could be put out of action when Carsten Spohr has a hickup. Granted, for the time being there seem to be job opportunities, but for how long is that going to last ? Economic downturn anyone ?

To predict or just give good career advice in Aviation in Europe sounds like a oxymoron to me, especially with all that idiotic climate stuff etc going on. For us GA types I think the future is less bright - Eindhoven are shutting down GA completely in 2025 IIRC and Dublin are thinking of the same, Amsterdam has a plan too. Portugal has put taxes on GA in place and getting slots in certain place there (and a lot of other place) is getting increasingly harder by the day.
The lobby power airlines have is CERTAINLY way bigger than what business/executive aviation can bring to bear - and that is going to hurt us hard, I´m sure. In part that is a problem within the 'community' NJE/FleaxJet/Vista play a different game than say corporate FDs, cause they see each other as competitors and are way too stupid (all sides) to understand what the divide and conquer strategy really is. In part its the populistic nature of our politics, where it is so easy (and frankly the lifeline of many politicians) to foster greed and envy towards the people sitting in our back. They are evil and thus their airplanes are as well, to say it in simple terms....

[EatMyShorts!]

Well said, His dudeness
As I wrote before, I first worked in the airlines and looked down (you and stupid) on biz aviation. Once I accidentally got into Netjets I really enjoyed, 20 years it is now! If you are an airline pilot and get bored there, the sorts of Netjets and Flexjet are an excellent option. But be prepared to fly on tiny aircraft for a long time, although the remuneration is really good. The company pension scheme still leaves things to be desired, so you better use your extra salary to organize your own stuff. Should these two items already be a deal breaker, then better stay in the airlines.

[flylevel390]

Thanks for all your advice!

You're right. I have to evaluate the facts for me personally. No one can do that for me...
It would be so much easier if I wouldn't have so many choices here, but there are so many chances.

I think this job in the Biz Av isn't too bad. From what I've heard this company is already at the upper edge of the GA spectrum. With the possible move to a Gulfstream in a few years that shouldn't be that bad. Sounds for me personally like loads of fun compared to scheduled air service. I see it in the same way as EatMyShorts!. Technically I would prefer bizjets to old ac. like B737 and A320. I know one working for NJE and he suggested to move later on to NJE, if this job isn't for me. He seams to be also quite happy at NJE. Could be a way.
On the other hand the airlines offer huge benefits from the beginning as fully paid insurance, great compensation, travel opportunities, stability (but NJ also tries to provide these apparently)...

As you can see I'm more into BizAv as my feeling / heart or whatever says so. But I didn't fully decide yet.

At my current age of 27 a good financial perspective would be beneficial (living, wife, etc.) so this is fundamental for me right now. I think I'll try to get an exemplary duty schedule and talk to prospective colleagues from the cockpit there.

[Boabity]

It’s not too hard to go from airlines to biz av, it is comparatively much harder to go to airlines from biz. Personally for a bunch of reasons I would recommend airlines as the place to learn. It’s safer, training standards are higher and if you decide you like it - you can’t stay or if you still have the desire for biz, then you can still go that way. It’s the least risk to your career.

if on the other hand you’ve made up your mind, then ignore me and be you.

for context, I flew 18 months in a terrible turboprop outfit “airline” then went biz and never looked back. Airlines just ain’t for me, I love managing the craziness and the level of autonomy that I couldn’t get in an airline. That being said I much prefer the safety and training in a bigger company like NJE, which is why I’m happy here.

[stilton]

Exactly what outfits like Netjets and Flexjet offer. An airline like operation of aircraft that are far more fun to fly and operate than those dull Boeings and Airbus'. I jumped from the airlines to biz aviation exactly 20 years ago and do not regret it a single second! Some people are made for airlines with a fixed set of destinations that they can prepare for hours, days, weeks before they fly there, or they'd feel uncomfortable. Others would get bored to death by this and prefer a more dynamic environment. And, yes, there are many GA operators that are great to start your career with, but you'll need to jump **** ASAP to advance your career and life. We are not talking about those jobs. We are talking about jobs in GA that pay well, that don't make you sit on standby on a regular basis, that offer a stable roster and enough rest time and that stick to the rules and regulations.



I never found flying the 727, MD80, 757 and 767 ‘boring’ and we never had a ‘fixed set of destinations’

Our schedule was bid for but then could be modified as desired

With a worldwide route system the variety was outstanding

[stilton]

I´ll be the devils advocate, sorta...

If you care looking at an increasingly unpleasant passenger crowd at the finger and never really see and have time to explore foreign cities and countries - then the airline is the way to go. A lot offer even being home every night. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your day?" ", "well Postion 493 at FRA to Gate24 in Mallorca and back, then had the police come and take a unruly drunkard off my aircraft, then I flew to Edinburgh and back with even more drunks on board"

If you like to meet (some) interesting people and are an explorer - go to the business jet side of things. "Hi Honey, were have you been today and how was your week ? "Well monday mornin I flew to Cairo and visited the pyramids, courtesy of the company, then I had dinner with the boss in the 5 Star Hotel we stayed in and the next day, at a civilized hour, we took off for Accra in Ghana, stayed 2 nights in a 5 Star with a fantastic pool and restaurant poolside and then we took of for Fez at 0900 in the morning and visited the medina and had lamb with humus in the evening under a full moon. Next day we took of at 1400 back home, then I did a toilet service, catered the airplane up, put it in the hangar, checked the oil and tire pressure, did my paperwork, the flight planning for the next big trip, hugged the aircraft and wished it a good rest, closed the hangar doors and now I´m here to be at home for 6 days before we go flying again - if the company does not change its mind, that is..."

Thats my take on my work life in a corporate flight department these days. Business aviation is a multifacetted world, very few operations are like the one next door, just like Ryanair is - I guess - really different than say Lufthansa.


Never had to deal with passengers, they’re behind the cockpit door and taken care of by professionals


As to staying in nice hotels in exotic spots that’s normal with a good airline however I don’t want to hang around them for days, I’d prefer to be at home

[EatMyShorts!]

With a worldwide route system the variety was outstanding
According to my logbook I have been to over 360 destinations, worldwide. In my previous job as airline donkey I had maybe 50 destinations (which is already quite good for a European regional carrier).

On top of it, it is mostly interesting and positive to deal with a certain breed of people, except for the odd a$$hole, but they exist everywhere.

Never had to deal with passengers, they’re behind the cockpit door and taken care of by professionals

As to staying in nice hotels in exotic spots that’s normal with a good airline however I don’t want to hang around them for days, I’d prefer to be at homeWhich means you fit perfectly for the airlines and that is fine. There are other personalities who'd find your way of thinking and operating quite boring. Live and let live.

[stilton]

According to my logbook I have been to over 360 destinations, worldwide. In my previous job as airline donkey I had maybe 50 destinations (which is already quite good for a European regional carrier).

On top of it, it is mostly interesting and positive to deal with a certain breed of people, except for the odd a$$hole, but they exist everywhere.

Which means you fit perfectly for the airlines and that is fine. There are other personalities who'd find your way of thinking and operating quite boring. Live and let live.


Dont really understand your point, been to more airports, so what ?

Doesnt affect the paycheck


Big difference between working for a European regional carrier or a U.S. Major


Don’t know what an ‘airline donkey’ is

Seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of something

[angel.pilot]

Dont really understand your point, been to more airports, so what ?

Doesnt affect the paycheck


Big difference between working for a European regional carrier or a U.S. Major


Don’t know what an ‘airline donkey’ is

Seems like you’re trying to convince yourself of something

It’s not about convincing oneself of something. EatMyShorts! is just trying to say that there are different kind of people and pilots. Some pilots want monotony, sitting all day in a flight deck and do always the same things over and over, and just something that “affects the pay-check”, like you said.
Some others want adventures, something different every day, not knowing where you’ll end up that night considering the very variable schedule, flying to many different airport and mostly never feel completely in a comfort zone, which instead happens in an airline.

We’re all different personalities and like different things, that’s all!

[EatMyShorts!]

Thanks angel.pilot, I meant it exactly as you explained it as well. I guess stilton 's CRM was outstanding and his first officers loved flying with him.

[His dudeness]

Never had to deal with passengers, they’re behind the cockpit door and taken care of by professionals

Nor did ever say that you had to. Don´t put words in my mouth.

As to staying in nice hotels in exotic spots that’s normal with a good airline however I don’t want to hang around them for days, I’d prefer to be at home

Fine, so you are different then - e.g. - me. Which was one of my points to begin with: we are all different with different takes on life. I could also have said: you don´t know my wife then ?

Last but not least: working an airline in Europe vs. the US is vastly different, as is bizjet flying. My comments are made fro a european perspective after 34 yrs in business aviation. I do know some people in 'the airlines' very well, namely copilots that did their first baby steps in 'my' cockpit. One of them is PIC on 777s in airfreight, one flies A340s and is now in a regional, the other guy was with Emirates and now drives a 320 around Europe. One is with NetJets finally after many years in command. I talk regularly to these folks and think I know the other side(s) a bit.

[Onuk]

Thanks angel.pilot, I meant it exactly as you explained it as well. I guess stilton 's CRM was outstanding and his first officers loved flying with him.
Well said Sir)
and thanks for opening up previous topic questions. It was useful for me.