First Female USAF F-16 Demo Team Commander Fired After Two Weeks

[Airbubba]

Very unusual for a 'poster child' to be relieved of command in my observation.

From the Air Force Times:

First female Viper demo team pilot relieved of command after two weeks

By: Stephen Losey (https://www.airforcetimes.com/author/stephen-losey)   16 minutes ago Capt. Zoe Kotnik, the first female pilot to head the F-16 Viper demonstration team (https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/07/30/f-16-demonstration-pilot-used-a-cockpit-camera-during-recent-show-and-the-result-is-stunning/), was relieved of command Monday.

“Col. Derek O’Malley, 20th Fighter Wing (https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/06/05/this-is-the-f-16-and-a-10-pilot-whos-going-to-run-the-air-forces-wars-in-the-middle-east/) commander, relieved Capt. Zoe Kotnik from command Feb. 11 due to a loss of confidence in her ability to lead and command the Air Combat Command F-16 Viper demonstration team,” Col. Allen Herritage, director of public affairs at ACC, said in a statement. “The Viper demonstration team (https://www.airforcetimes.com/off-duty/military-sports/2018/01/29/a-10s-and-a-p-51-super-bowl-flyover-wont-be-the-usual-demonstration/) is working to minimize impacts on scheduled performances and looks forward to inspiring crowds around the country during the upcoming season as soon as a new commander is selected.”

Herritage would not comment further on what led to Kotnik’s removal, citing privacy concerns.

Air Force Times asked the 20th if Kotnik wished to comment, but has not yet received a response.

Kotnik, an F-16C pilot whose call sign is “SiS,” was certified as the Viper team leader by ACC commander Gen. Mike Holmes on Jan. 29. She graduated from the Air Force Academy in 2011, earned her wings in 2013, and has more than 1,000 flying hours in military aircraft. She deployed to Kunsan Air Base in South Korea for a year, from February 2015 to February 2016. She also has flown air defense missions in support of Operation Noble Eagle.



Kotnik’s selection garnered a great deal of press and social media attention. The Viper team posted a tweet last month announcing her selection that nodded to the advertising campaign for the Marvel Studios movie “Captain Marvel,” which depicts a superhero who starts out as a female Air Force fighter pilot.

Kotnik’s first show as part of the Viper team’s 2019 schedule was to be at an air show at Naval Air Station Key West in Florida, on March 30 and 31, according to ACC’s website






https://twitter.com/ViperDemoTeam/status/1090249070411685889

Just a few days earlier she had superhero status in USAF media releases:

‘Higher, further, faster’: Air Force names first female fighter pilot to command F-16 Viper team By CHAD GARLAND (https://www.stripes.com/reporters/2.2248?author=Chad_Garland) | STARS AND STRIPES Published: February 4, 2019

The Air Force has named its first female commander of a single-aircraft demonstration team, as the service looks to leverage the anticipated popularity of an upcoming superhero movie featuring a female fighter pilot to spur recruitment. Capt. Zoe “SiS” Kotnik was named pilot and commander of the Air Combat Command’s F-16 Viper Demonstration Team last week after completing a series of certification flights. The team showcases the F-16V Viper, the latest variant of the Fighting Falcon, at dozens of airshows each year.


In announcing Kotnik’s selection on Twitter, the team posted a video and photos framed and lettered like a comic panel. “In that instant ... She knew she could fly her F-16 higher, further and faster than anyone else,” reads text that appears in the images.

The line is a clear nod to the “Captain Marvel” film, which premieres on March 8 and features Brie Larson in the role of the titular superhero, whose alter ego Carol Danvers is an F-16 pilot in the Air Force. Air Force pilots, including Brig. Gen. Jeannie Leavitt, the service’s first female fighter pilot, assisted in the production. A new trailer, aired during the Super Bowl on Sunday, shows Larson’s character on the flight line walking beside fellow pilot Maria Rambeau, played by Lashana Lynch.


“About to show these boys how we do it,” Lynch says. “You ready?” Larson’s reply, which is partly echoed throughout the 30-second spot: “Higher, further, faster, baby.” In another nod to the movie, the Air Force Recruiting Service included the hashtag #higherfurtherfaster in a post on Friday announcing that Leavitt, who heads the recruiting service, hosted dozens of female pilots for an event at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. Kotnik was among them. “Every hero has an origin story,” said the post, which included a photo the women on a foggy tarmac in front of a formation of aircraft. “We asked over 80 female pilots to share theirs.”

Kotnik’s origin story started in Poynette, Wis., where she was born into a family of aviators. Her uncle was skydiver and airshow hall of fame pilot Charlie Hillard, who in 1972 became the first American to win the World Aerobatic Championships. Her mother was also a private pilot. But Kotnik’s path to becoming a fighter pilot really began when she saw a NASA T-38 Talon supersonic jet trainer pull up at an airshow, she told Live Airshow TV last fall in a video interview. The pilot shut down the engines, popped the canopy and pulled off the flight helmet, revealing a female fighter pilot.“It was at that moment that I realized, ‘Oh my god, that’s exactly what I can do,’” Kotnik said.




https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1140x641/1000w_q95_f1b9ff89769805a5d82ea7a638fd91a302e79aa2.jpg

[Airbubba]

A message from Col. O'Malley posted today about the firing.

Viper Demo Team friends and family, please see a message below from the 20th Fighter Wing commander.

I removed Capt. Kotnik from her position as the commander of the Viper Demo team yesterday, because I lost confidence in her ability to lead the team.

I know that loss of confidence is a common response from the Air Force, whenever someone is removed from a command position, and I think it’s important to understand why we take this approach.

We have thousands of Airmen across our Air Force serving our country, and not one of them is perfect. As good people, like Capt. Kotnik make mistakes, I want them to have the opportunity to learn from them without being under public scrutiny, and to continue to be a part of this great service. They’ll be better for the experience, and in turn, we’ll be better as an Air Force.
In these types of situations, I never forget that we’re dealing with real human beings, that I care deeply about, and that we are charged to take care of. This will be a difficult time for Capt. Kotnik, but she’s surrounded by wingmen that will help her every step of the way.

It was exciting to have the first female demo team pilot here at Shaw, but I’m also just as excited about the many other females that are serving with great distinction across our Air Force. I’m proud to serve with them, and I’m inspired by them. Even as I speak, another female pilot from the 20th Fighter Wing is flying combat missions in the Middle East.

Maj. Waters, last season’s Viper Demo pilot has resumed command, so the team is in great hands, and the show will go on. We’re looking forward to another amazing season with this team.

Col. Derek O’Malley
Commander, 20th Fighter Wing

[ShyTorque]

I feel sorry for her.

My first thought was: "1000 hours? That's not many hours at all for such a huge responsibility".

[Harley Quinn]

It's a pretty rapid 'loss of confidence' too. Was there a flawed selection process?

[Airbubba]

In these types of situations, I never forget that we’re dealing with real human beings, that I care deeply about, and that we are charged to take care of. This will be a difficult time for Capt. Kotnik, but she’s surrounded by wingmen that will help her every step of the way.

Almost sounds like one of those 'she will get the help that she needs' proclamations when a civilian pilot is involved in an incident involving drugs or alcohol.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Not the first junior officer (of either sex) pushed too far too fast.......

Nobody is going to come out of this looking very good.

[Runaway Gun]

As usual, they create a monster pushing the big "Look - it's a Girl!", and the unfortunate fall hits the media even harder.

[Pontius Navigator]

That process was so fast it almost suggests a massive personality clash. It brings to mind an arrival interview I had once. It was a bollocking and entirely because he had taken a dislike if me.

I am happy to say he got kicked out and I survived.

[SASless]

I should think the fault is less with the new Leader and far more with who made the decision to put her in the Lead Position.

I cannot wait to hear the full account of both decisions.


The nice lady's Resume


https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1743628/capt-zoe-m-kotnik/

[Pontius Navigator]

And the Commander:

https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1544363/colonel-derek-j-omalley/

[Training Risky]

Overpromotion of women and pandering to the PR spin doctors. The rot set in with Wimmins Lib and it will only get worse for the West.

We are doing the enemy’s job for them.

[Monarch Man]

DUI is the scuttlebutt

[ExAscoteer]

Rubbish

The 1950s 'phoned. Apparently they'd like their sexist back.

[Dog Star]

From the pages of the Air Force Times

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/02/06/air-forces-f-16-viper-demonstration-team-commander-is-the-real-captain-marvel/

[Longtimer]

By COREY DICKSTEIN (https://www.stripes.com/reporters/2.2149?author=Corey_Dickstein) STARS AND STRIPES Published: February 12, 2019WASHINGTON – Air Force Capt. Zoe Kotnik, the first female F-16 pilot to lead the service’s Viper demonstration team, was relieved of command Monday, just two weeks after taking the team’s reins, officials said Tuesday.

Col. Derek O’Malley, the commander of the 20th Fighter Wing, removed Kotnik from her position after losing confidence in her ability to lead and command the demonstration team, which showcases the newest model of F-16V fighter jets at airshows throughout the country, according to an Air Combat Command statement.

O’Malley attempted to explain his decision in a social media post on the Shaw Air Force Base’s Facebook page.

“We have thousands of airmen across our Air Force serving our country, and not one of them is perfect,” he wrote. “As good people, like Capt. Kotnik make mistakes, I want them to have the opportunity to learn from them without being under public scrutiny, and to continue to be a part of this great service. They’ll be better for the experience, and in turn, we’ll be better as an Air Force.”

O’Malley acknowledged Kotnik’s removal would be tough on her, but he said she was “surrounded by wingmen [who] will help her every step of the way.”

[tartare]

Genuine question from a civilian... without of course knowing if she was promoted too far too fast.
If a manifestly incompetent commander is appointed to a unit like this - how does it work in terms of military culture and the on the ground reality of command and control?
Do the subordinates just grin and bear it - hoping more senior officers will notice?
Does one of the subordinates go over their commanders head - and have a quiet word with the bosses boss?
Or is there a `work to rule' type scenario - where subordinates more or less tacitly rebel against the commander?
Obviously the dangers and safety issues in a team like this make it absolutely imperative the commander is at the top of their game.
Just wondering...

[golder]

DUI is the scuttlebutt
Out celebrating her new gig?

[Two's in]

The 1950s 'phoned. Apparently they'd like their sexist back.

Damn! You stole my exact post.

[Airbubba]

DUI is the scuttlebutt

Out celebrating her new gig?

If so, it sure wouldn't be the first time a pilot overindulged while celebrating a promotion.

[Airbubba]

Here's a hit piece on Col. O'Malley for the #MeToo era:

Commander That Fired First Female USAF Demo Team Leader Made This Crass Video 15 Years Ago - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26479/commander-that-fired-zoe-kotnik-from-f-16-demo-team-made-this-crass-video-15-years-ago)

Col. O'Malley's callsign is Maestro. Someone attempted to upload the Gold Bond Powder video to YouTube but it was removed according to this note:


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1298x353/maestro_de55b4618cef9ef2be2741498ac0cb8f728cf08c.jpg

[orca]

Qualified pilot leads demo team - not news.
Qualified female pilot leads demo team - newsworthy in a very ‘passing interest’ sense.
Qualified female pilot leads demo team - absolutely no reason to suspect over promotion, too much too soon or any other agenda.
Team leader removed due to a slip up that itself didn’t make the news - newsworthy in a very ‘passing interest’ sense.
Person who removed person made a puerile video - not news.

[Bob Viking]

If it proves one thing, it is that men and women are equally capable of making mistakes.

BV

[Pontius Navigator]

Taking this as a straight and unlinked question:

Generally you suck it up, know you will be posted before them or they will be posted within 2_years[/b]

Do the subordinates just grin and bear it - hoping more senior officers will notice?

Yes

Does one of the subordinates go over their commanders head - and have a quiet word with the bosses boss?

Possibly but you need to consider personal politics. The person may have friends in high places Or the subordinate has friends in high places.

​​​​​​
Or is there a `work to rule' type scenario - where subordinates more or less tacitly rebel against the commander?

Yes, often occurs with 'old hands - new broom' scenario

Just wondering...

Some bosses have history. Old sweats just keep their heads down. Within a sqn it is essential that there is loyalty and loyalty is a two way street.

Years ago we had a farewell speech by out commander. It began 'never before have I experienced such a bunch of rebellious junior officers . . . '

Said it all really.

[charliegolf]

Taking this as a straight and unlinked question:



Years ago we had a farewell speech by out commander. It began 'never before have I experienced such a bunch of rebellious junior officers . . . '

Said it all really.

But that could have been the start of a great speech...

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

. . . but I was very grateful for the support of my senior officers."

As you may gather there was a huge schism between the Execs and the plebes. The sqn cdrs were fine but this was a time of general discontent with lack of information and reliance on the Daily Express for news.

[roybert]

I'm sure the Colonel had solid reasons for the removal and I think it would have been appropriate to share it with the world because right now people are thinking old boys club.

[langleybaston]

That process was so fast it almost suggests a massive personality clash. It brings to mind an arrival interview I had once. It was a bollocking and entirely because he had taken a dislike if me.

I am happy to say he got kicked out and I survived.

#metoo!

New boss took an instant [mutual] dislike. I waited until the last straw [delivered in writing to me] and then asked for interview with his boss.
Interview seemed neutral and noncommittal until I asked to be moved.
"Don't do that, I am moving him!"

Result

[Lonewolf_50]

I am a bit more concerned about this Air Force member's performance (https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-military/2019/02/13/former-air-force-tech-sergeant-who-defected-to-iran-charged-with-spying/?utm_source=clavis) than the young captain's. Sleeping with the enemy, as it were.
Back on topic:
Some of you seem to forget how one becomes a wise old mil aviator.

A good friend of mine lost his aircraft commander papers for 90 days due to flying a bit too low and our CO getting a phone call. XO, OPSO, and CO, called him in, standard Navy ass chewing was administered.
He began his "you are a second pilot again" tour the next day as my copilot on a maintenance check flight.
Who knew? Our squadron, the squadron we shared a hangar with, and of course the Wing.
As the weeks went by and scuttlebutt spread, a few of the other squadrons on the air station also learned of our squadron's black eye. It wasn't broadcast to the whole world via electronic means.

For this hard charging young captain I feel great empathy.
We all trip here and there on the way to becoming seasoned professionals. Her CO should have been able to call her into his office, tell her
"I can't have you doing (whatever) if you are in this billet, so I am reassigning you to ___"
and it remain within the wing. Granted, there is some PR stuff involved with this, but this isn't national news.

Here sit some of you who have been through a similar journey to mine, getting all on board with the naming and shaming game.
There but for the grace of God go I,
F**k the internet age.

[Pontius Navigator]

LW, very true. Also secrecy means the rumours abound, the truth gets embellished and told often enough becomes the true story. Unless you can keep it in house, best get it in the open.

[sycamore]

I`ll bet `Maestro16` is a real `fun` guy,wears lumberjacks spurs to climb the greasy flagpole of promotion and placements;
not a lot of `stick time` either for his 22yrs.....

The General will also have a bit of `egg `on his tie as well....

[tartare]

Thanks PN.
I find it fascinating to learn about how military command and control really works.
At times a lot more fluid and political in practice than many civilians seem to think it is - quite like corporate politics in fact.
Back on thread - if the DUI allegation is true - I wonder if the Captain reported herself?
Technically just over the limit - or rat-arsed...?

[Airbubba]

Here's a hit piece on Col. O'Malley for the #MeToo era:

The Daily Mail has picked up Col. O'Malley's 'Breath mint for his b***s' video in an 'exclusive':

EXCLUSIVE: 'If there's one thing more important to me than tactical aviation, it's a healthy pair of b***s!' Colonel who removed first female captain of an Air Force demo team is seen singing in spoof video about discomfort in male genitaliaColonel Derek O'Malley, 45, is seen performing a song and dance about the discomfort of men's genitalia while flying, in a video filmed in the mid-2000s
O'Malley recently dismissed the first female captain of an elite Air Force Viper demo team, Zoe 'SiS' Kotnik, 30, of her command after just two weeks
Officials did not provide specific details on why she had been ousted, but O'Malley said in a statement that Kotnik had made 'mistakes'
A resurfaced video shows the colonel sprinkling Gold Bond Powder on the puppet-like penis and testes
'If there's one thing more important to me than tactical aviation, it's a healthy pair of balls,' he says in the video


Pictures and lyrics from the video in the link below.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6705423/Colonel-removed-female-captain-Air-Force-seen-crude-video.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6705423/Colonel-removed-female-captain-Air-Force-seen-crude-video.html)

I'm telling you, those Air Force pilots will never be accepted by polite society. :)

[SASless]

Bubba....Air Force Pilots are Altar Boys compared to your common US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot!

[Pontius Navigator]

SASLess, officer and gentleman or professional aviator. Your call 👹

[SASless]

PN, Real Live Officers (RLO's) were commissioned as an "Officer and Gentleman" by Congress.....Warrant Officers were appointed as such by the Secretary of the Army with zero mention of the "Gentleman" part thus imparting an interesting dynamic into the situation.

[falcon900]

Joining the dots together, something binary like DUI sounds the most plausible. Timeframe too compressed otherwise, as 99% of other reasons to remove a commander would take a little time to percolate, and ironically, given O'Malleys history, I suspect he might be on the less hasty side when it comes to such a drastic step. An infringement of that nature, involving external authorities would leave him little choice, a judgement which I am sure he would have "road tested" up the line before implementing.

[Airbubba]

Joining the dots together, something binary like DUI sounds the most plausible. Timeframe too compressed otherwise, as 99% of other reasons to remove a commander would take a little time to percolate, and ironically, given O'Malleys history, I suspect he might be on the less hasty side when it comes to such a drastic step. An infringement of that nature, involving external authorities would leave him little choice, a judgement which I am sure he would have "road tested" up the line before implementing.

Author Tyler Rogoway interviewed Col. O'Malley about his own road to redemption after the raunchy Gold Bond video inadvertently went viral in the pre-YouTube era.

We Talk Mistakes, Redemption, And Leadership With Commander Who Fired First Female Demo Team LeaderLong before removing F-16 pilot Zoe Kotnik from her post, Colonel O'Malley faced his own controversy and he's finally ready to talk about it publicly.BY TYLER ROGOWAY (http://www.thedrive.com/author/tyler-rogoway)FEBRUARY 14, 2019Derek "Maestro" O'Malley was a young fighter pilot rising quickly in the ranks when he decided to make a particularly crass gag video. What came next was nothing he ever imagined. All that he had worked for was suddenly at stake. But the Air Force gave him another chance, one that he ran with and has since achieved incredible heights of success, becoming the wing commander (https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1544363/colonel-derek-j-omalley/) of the prestigious 20th Fighter Wing based at Shaw Air Force Base. Then, just days ago, it was his turn to make a disciplinary decision just like his superiors had in regards to his mistake a decade and a half ago. This one would be far more publicized. Now Colonel O'Malley relieved the first female demonstration team (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26469/air-force-sacks-first-female-to-lead-a-fighter-demonstration-team-after-just-two-weeks) leader the Air Force ever had, Captain Zoe Kotnik (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26295/it-has-been-one-hell-of-an-important-two-weeks-for-u-s-military-aviatrixes), after just two weeks on duty. His decision made international headlines and the details surrounding it are still shrouded in secrecy.

After the video he created years ago, which is infamous in the fighter pilot community, was published on this site (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26479/commander-that-fired-zoe-kotnik-from-f-16-demo-team-made-this-crass-video-15-years-ago) in relation to the ongoing story about the dismissal of Zoe Kotnik, O'Malley made the decision to reach out to us to share his story publically for the first time. And an amazing and intimate one it is. It speaks to the failings in all of us and how it's not necessarily how you fail, but how you redeem yourself and use your experiences, no matter how unpleasant, to become a better person and a more thoughtful leader.

Judging by his responses alone, we need more people like O'Malley in the top echelons of the USAF's leadership, ones who have learned to see the potential in people even when it is highly inconvenient to do so. For a force that is struggling to retain personnel, including pilots (left=http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/January%202019/Bonus-Pay-Up-to-420K-Available-To-Certain-Pilots-In-Fiscal-2019.aspx) and maintainers (left=https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/02/08/air-force-has-fixed-its-active-duty-maintainer-shortage-secaf-says.html&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1550275698398000&usg=AFQjCNEnHw8h4H6c9EZtdXNmv5YoOQvZPg)—those who are absolutely critical to its core mission—giving people a second shot when it is possible to do so is really a necessity not a luxury.


The interview is here, it's a good read in my opinion:

We Talk Mistakes, Redemption, And Leadership With Commander Who Fired First Female Demo Team Leader - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26494/we-talk-mistakes-redemption-and-leadership-with-commander-who-fired-first-female-demo-team-leader)

[falcon900]

Airbubba,
I had already read the interview you refer to, which is what made me think O'Malley would be inherently less likely to be hasty or indeed unforgiving. Given his own experience, I suspect whatever she did must have left him / The Air Force with little choice. Added to which, he wouldnt need much in the imagination department to realise that this would reignite interest in his own past incident, so another reason to believe that he had no choice but to remove her.

[jayteeto]

Go to the links above and look beyond THIS story. There are lots and lots of sub links to AF personnel who lost the confidence of their boss. It’s an SOP title whenever ANYONE gets sacked. Some do criminal things, some sexual, some violent, some neglectful, but ALL get the same headline. Don’t read anything into what she has done , you’re always just guessing

[ihoharv]

interesting background - just seven years ago was flying King Airs around Afghanistan...
https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1756017/major-john-waters/ (https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1756017/major-john-waters/)

[Airbubba]

interesting background - just seven years ago was flying King Airs around Afghanistan...
https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1756017/major-john-waters/ (https://www.shaw.af.mil/About-Us/Biographies/Display/Article/1756017/major-john-waters/)

And just to confirm, Maj. Waters is both the new boss and the old boss from last year's F-16 demo team.

A Tech graduate from Peachtree City, I'd say he's quite possibly the son of a Delta pilot.

_______________________________________________

After listening to a podcast featuring Maj. Waters it turns out that his father wasn't a pilot but that many of the neighbors were Deltoids with military backgrounds.

[BVRAAM]

A friend suggested that she may have been sleeping with a junior enlisted Airman, and a fellow Officer may have ratted her out to the Wing Commander because they were jealous that they weren't selected to be the display pilot.

If all of that is true - again, it was a mere suggestion of what *COULD* have happened - then sh*t happens. You cannot put men and women together and not expect intimacy to occur, every now and again. It's simply nature.

Let's face it gents, how many of you would refuse her if you were young and single? I wouldn't....

[Airbubba]

A couple of decades ago a similar 'poster child', 1st Lt. Kelly Flinn, was all over Air Force publications and press releases as the first female B-52 pilot.

COLUMBUS AFB, Miss. (AFNS) -- A Columbus student pilot will make history March 31 when she takes the initial step toward becoming the country's first woman pilot to enter B-52 combat crew training.

Following undergraduate pilot training graduation and several weeks of follow-on training, 2nd Lt. Kelly Flinn will enter the formal training unit at the 11th Bomb Squadron, Barksdale AFB, La., to learn to fly the B-52 Stratofortress.

During the recent assignment selection process for UPT class 95-04, Flinn gained national attention when she picked the venerable bomber. Although she was aware there was a possibility she would be the first woman to get a B-52 assignment, it did not factor into her decision.

"There were several aircraft available that had the mission I wanted," she said. "But the B-52 encompassed them all. It's a combat aircraft with a worldwide mission, and it's involved in almost all our defensive and offensive actions."

After talking to several B-52 pilots during the two weeks she had to finalize her decision, Flinn said she realized it was the mission she wanted. "The fact I'm the first is an additional benefit to an already great assignment," she said.

She had an affair with the civilian husband of an enlisted woman in her B-52 squadron. She was counseled more than once in writing to knock it off but she persisted to the point that UCMJ charges were filed. Kelly claimed in her subsequent book that her only mistake was 'to fall in love with the wrong man'. Her family in Atlanta hired a public relations firm and molded her image as the female victim of male chauvinist superiors.

She was facing a court martial at Minot and a media circus ensued.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1029x1181/cjdw5gkwsaag8k5_823f9f271fa0b22aa57bb1845927e3315955245a.jpg

Sheila Widnall was Secretary of the Air Force and befriended Kelly to help her cut a deal to leave with a general discharge. Unfortunately, several other careers were scuttled by the charges of sexism and bias from what coworkers from the B-52 community have told me.

Years later Kelly is 'a pilot with a major airline' and lives outside of Denver.

Like Kelly Flinn, Capt. Zoe Kotnik is a Zoomie (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zoomie) (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zoomie)with a female Secretary of the Air Force. I doubt things will play out so publicly this time. But, we'll see.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

If all of that is true - again, it was a mere suggestion of what *COULD* have happened - then sh*t happens. You cannot put men and women together and not expect intimacy to occur, every now and again. It's simply nature.


I may have you confused with another poster on here, but aren't you hoping to join the military?


Let's face it gents, how many of you would refuse her if you were young and single? I wouldn't....

My God.

[BVRAAM]

I may have you confused with another poster on here, but aren't you hoping to join the military?.

But it is reality, isn't it? And it happens in every, single profession you can think of.

These are the consequences - rightly or wrongly - of allowing men and women to serve, side-by-side. I am not suggesting for a minute that I'd want a country with Western values to go back to the dark ages where men and women worked separately, but it really is time that attitudes changed to reflect the reality of what progress has created.
The Military reflects the society that it serves and it is becoming increasingly unacceptable to fire somebody from their job for simply sleeping with a co-worker. This is the view of society, so it's time for the military to change with that.
You can either embrace the reality of the "new" world we live in, and be a part of the force that strives to change the currently accepted norms, or you can be a dinosaur that takes your current views to your grave.

[MPN11]

You can either embrace the reality of the "new" world we live in, and be a part of the force that strives to change the currently accepted norms, or you can be a dinosaur that takes your current views to your grave
Unfortunately, whatever civilian ‘society’ may or may not accept as the norm, in the military world that soesn’t really work. The simple, and rigid, rank structure and the differentiation of commissioned and non-commissioned requires clear differentiation on the moral plane. The system cannot accept the potential of coercion through rank/status differentiation if the structure is to survive.

I have known a few officer colleagues who have crossed the line. It’s not a good thing hearing about a female cpl being seen emerging from her sqn ldr boss’s room in the Mess in the small hours, or a female fg off having sex in a toilet with a cpl, or a married wg cdr doing it with a female plt off in her room in the Mess.

Proud to be a dinosaur.

[SASless]

Chalk me up as being a Dinosaur.....the Military does not reflect civilian society.

The Military has much more stringent standards of conduct than does civvy street.

Unity of Command, Unit Cohesion, and Discipline are ways of life and not subjects to be discussed or negotiated.

Fraternization between ranks and members of the same unit are very bad karma.

[BVRAAM]

Chaps,
It is simply a fact that the military represents the society it serves. It has to or else it isn't serving the public, it's serving something else and that wouldn't be a democracy at that point.
Therefore, its values must be based on the societal values. In civilian life, people are fired when relationships disrupt the work environment, not for the relationship its self and it is incredibly difficult to treat a person equally when your romantic feelings are wrapped around your judgement.
If she was screwing a team member, or a young guy on her then-former Squadron, then I completely agree with her being dismissed.

However there needs to be a serious discussion about it going on when it isn't in the same unit. It absolutely does go on and you can't stop it, so you might as well embrace it when it is possible to do so. If that is what she did, and he wasn't under her direct command, then according to societal values, the dismissal was unfair so it's time to make some changes, I think.

[westhawk]

One of my company first Sergeants had this to say on the subject of military discipline: "We're here to defend democracy, NOT to practice it!"

Even though I may not have been pleased to hear it at the time, he was right all along. Accountability, serviceability and uniformity are the hallmarks of military order. A military without order is just a rabble.

Not that I wish to go back to living as a soldier now, but having done it, I have to agree that most of the rules are necessary to maintain order. How this can be applied in times of changing social mores in the civilian sector will always be a moving target. Sexual relations between members has always been problematic, it's not new.

[SASless]

BVRAAM, Are we correct in assuming you have never been in a Military Unit of any kind?

[Fortissimo]

However there needs to be a serious discussion about it going on when it isn't in the same unit. It absolutely does go on and you can't stop it, so you might as well embrace it when it is possible to do so

BVRAAM, you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your suggestion (or your friend's suggestion) that some form of sexual impropriety is involved here. None of us does. There are many possibilities for a 'loss of confidence' including a range of indiscretions, poor management/leadership style, bullying (yes, women do it too), financial difficulties, personality clashes, straightforward failure to deal with the administrative aspects of job, or poor performance in the air for a post like the one in question.

As for your point about reflecting society, officers in particular have a duty to uphold standards that often exceed those found in civil society. for example, in the 1950s (and unlike in civil society) getting a divorce was a career foul in the military, but that is no longer the case, likewise being a part of the LGBT community. Up until the early 90's, getting pregnant even when married was incompatible with continued service; again, no longer the case. The world has moved on, but being e.g. an undischarged bankrupt will still have an impact on any security clearance you might hold and on your suitability to be in command of anything or anybody.

Similarly, if your behaviour undermines or risks undermining your credibility as an officer, especially if you are in a position of command, you can expect to be on the end of some form of sanction. That is why the RAF has for some years had a simple 'Service test' that is applied, which starts with any impact on the operational effectiveness of the unit; the significance of the impact increases with rank and it will also differentiate between someone in a command appointment and someone serving on the staff. If the 'offence' does not breach the terms of the Service test it is treated as a private life matter, otherwise action will follow

If you get into training, you will find that much is made of the need to trust your fellow servicemen and women, which includes where relationships are concerned. "Service before self" is a good working mantra for all military personnel - I hope one day you get to realise what that means.

[Training Risky]

Chaps,
It is simply a fact that the military represents the society it serves. It has to or else it isn't serving the public, it's serving something else and that wouldn't be a democracy at that point.
Therefore, its values must be based on the societal values.

Seriously. Stop digging...

((And if you do hope to join, you'll be serving the Monarch with OPCOM delegated to the PM and MOD! I don't see Society or the Public written down anywhere in the kill chain.)

[Airbubba]

Yet another 'first female' 'milestone' and 'role model' for the U.S. Air Force. :ok: Her dad Jon flew back seat in Weasel F-4's and front seat in F-15's while she was growing up.

Nice short video with some of the F-35 demo in the article link below.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/583x820/beo_wolfe_2_9b7e842cc7722eb8ec1d0f55c955f1287730aaa0.png


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/621x414/kristen_beo_wolfe_1800_fd864a5ac9f0592a049f05dc9ce75d7c29117 70b.jpg


The Air Force Has its First Female F-35 Demo Team Commander and Pilot3 Mar 2020
Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk (https://www.military.com/author/oriana-pawlyk)

The U.S. Air Force (http://www.military.com/air-force)'s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (http://www.military.com/topics/joint-strike-fighter) demonstration team is making history.

Capt. Kristin "Beo" Wolfe of the 388th Fighter Wing at Hill Air Force Base (http://www.military.com/base-guide/hill-air-force-base), Utah, was recently inducted as the new team commander for the 2020-2021 air show season, the service announced Monday. She is the first woman to command the team and follows Capt. Andrew "Dojo" Olson, who was the first solo F-35 performer for the team out of Luke Air Force Base (http://www.military.com/base-guide/luke-air-force-base), Arizona.

The demonstration team is now part of Air Combat Command and is assigned to the 388th, where Wolfe is an F-35 instructor pilot, according to a news release.

"We are extremely proud to have Capt. Wolfe leading the new F-35A (http://www.military.com/equipment/f-35a-lightning-ii) Demonstration Team," said Col. Steven Behmer, 388th Fighter Wing commander.

"She's an incredibly accomplished pilot, and we can't wait to see her and the team showcase the capabilities of our wing and the F-35s to the world," Behmer said in the release.

Wolfe is already a stealth fighter pilot. She transitioned to flying the F-35A Lightning II from the F-22 Raptor (http://www.military.com/equipment/f-22-raptor) in 2017 and has racked up 800 total fighter hours across the two fifth-generation aircraft, the service said.

"She will serve as an outstanding role model and ambassador for the Air Force and the F-35 enterprise (https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/01/08/first-female-air-force-f-35-test-pilot-marks-mission-milestone.html), and I look forward to seeing her take this team to the next level," Olson said.

As the team lead, Wolfe will perform alongside the Heritage Flight Foundation. The foundation is a contractor with Air Combat Command and performs across the U.S. and overseas, flying old warbirds such as the P-51 Mustang.

Only four aircraft -- the A-10 Thunderbolt II (http://www.military.com/equipment/a-10-thunderbolt-ii), F-16 Fighting Falcon (http://www.military.com/equipment/f-16-fighting-falcon), F-22 Raptor (http://www.military.com/equipment/f-22-raptor) and F-35 -- are certified to fly alongside the planes from a bygone era. The F-35 has been part of the Heritage Flight for four seasons.

The team is scheduled for 20 flight performances across the country, "showcasing the approximately 18-minute-long profile as well as a maintenance team jet-launch and recovery," the release states. The first demo is slated for March 13 at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma (http://www.military.com/base-guide/marine-corps-air-station-yuma), Arizona. The team's schedule can be found here (https://www.388fw.acc.af.mil/F-35A-Demo-Team/#_blank).

"It's extremely humbling and rewarding to get the opportunity to showcase the F-35A at so many different locations," Wolfe said. "It's a privilege to work with the best airmen from Hill Air Force Base and to give people a small glimpse of what this jet is capable of."


https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/03/air-force-has-its-first-female-f-35-demo-team-commander-and-pilot.html

[NutLoose]

Bubba....Air Force Pilots are Altar Boys compared to your common US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilot!


Sasless have you watched this? https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/80216003


Bar being a total screw up in many ways, it struck me the female in the front of one of them wasn't giving her pilot accurate situation information... she could see the rounds coming at them, where as he couldn't and she seemed not to grasp the idea of telling him from where and the direction.. it was compounded by the stupidity of telling the crews before the off their footage would be gone through with surgical precision to ensure they only engaged active targets, thus making them second guess themselves whether to open fire or not, even when taking rounds they were asking should I fire?

[India Four Two]

Not being in the UK, I had to do some searching to find the movie in NutLoose's link. It is Apache Warrior.

[NutLoose]

Read for more on it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_attack_on_Karbala

Of the 29 returning Apaches, all but one suffered serious damage. On average, each Apache had 15-20 bullet holes. One Apache took 29 hits. Sixteen main rotor blades, six tail blades, six engines, and five drive shafts were damaged beyond repair. In one squadron only a single helicopter was fit to fly.

[etudiant]

Read for more on it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_attack_on_Karbala

Of the 29 returning Apaches, all but one suffered serious damage. On average, each Apache had 15-20 bullet holes. One Apache took 29 hits. Sixteen main rotor blades, six tail blades, six engines, and five drive shafts were damaged beyond repair. In one squadron only a single helicopter was fit to fly.

Thought it was the best possible thing that could have happened !
The US Army got a very forceful lesson as to the limitations of airborne attack, I just hope that the flood of money currently is not producing amnesia.

[Islandlad]

What has any of this got to do with Captain Wolfe and her successful achievements?

[[email protected]]

And the question is - would she have been treated the same way if she had been a male Sqn Cdr playing away from home? I suspect not.

That is the lot of many women in the military - a male who sees a lot of ladies is a top bloke/swordsman/player - a female who does it is a slag - not really fair treatment and this is the dinosaur attitude that needs to change.

[Easy Street]

And the question is - would she have been treated the same way if she had been a male Sqn Cdr playing away from home? I suspect not.

That is the lot of many women in the military - a male who sees a lot of ladies is a top bloke/swordsman/player - a female who does it is a slag - not really fair treatment and this is the dinosaur attitude that needs to change.

A) What evidence have you got for the reason behind her dismissal? The only suggestion of sexual misconduct is in this thread by BVRAAM who is a UK wannabe with not the first idea about things and some ‘friend’ who at the very most might be UK mil. In other words, clueless.

B) Marital infidelity used to be career-limiting and to all intents career-ending for male officers in the UK forces. These days it is all about the effect on unit efficiency, a test which is gender-blind and subject to redress through the Service complaints process. My impression of the USAF is that it is still quite socially conservative. What evidence have you for your assertions about disparity of treatment in the contemporary services besides gender-stereotypical hand-waving ?

[[email protected]]

A) What evidence have you got for the reason behind her dismissal? The only suggestion of sexual misconduct is in this thread by BVRAAM who is a UK wannabe with not the first idea about things and some ‘friend’ who at the very most might be UK mil. In other words, clueless.

B) Marital infidelity used to be career-limiting and to all intents career-ending for male officers in the UK forces. These days it is all about the effect on unit efficiency, a test which is gender-blind and subject to redress through the Service complaints process. My impression of the USAF is that it is still quite socially conservative. What evidence have you for your assertions about disparity of treatment in the contemporary services besides gender-stereotypical hand-waving ?
A - what evidence do you have to the contrary? This is a rumour network and who made you the truth police?
B. 32 years of military service watching plenty of 'career-limiting/ending' offences swept under the carpet if the person's profile and career trajectory was high. The same 32 years in Officers Messes seeing the continued disparity of treatment for playing away from home. Your impression of the USAF is yours but is in no way more valid than mine.

[Hektor057]

Three years later, the revealed reasons for Capt Zoe Kotnik's removal showed that she suffered for committing exactly the kind of overconfidence in her own leadership that senior commanders admire in their fighter pilots, while firmly counsel-correcting them for minor mistakes. But the Thunderbirds' zero tolerance for any variations in displays other than the briefed manoeuvres, unfortunately (wrongly, in my opinion) doomed a history-making young lady's career. Just reading the USAF's justification broke my heart and made me convinced again that the Z -T is a bad rule if not modified with good judgement. She was sorry for her mistakes (neither of them dangerous) but was not forgiven.

But what did she do, just two weeks into her job (with a stellar record as a team member and a reputed solo F-16 pilot in the same team) that carried such a harsh punishment?

She once flew her team safely below the briefed height in a flypast, not an aerobatic manoeuvre. And she once took her formation to supersonic speed, again not a dangerous condition.
The writer has flown the F-16, flown formation aeros for seven years, trained many pilots on jet fighters, and flown with many USAF pilots for many happy years. Belongs to a different but well-regarded air force.

[[email protected]]

Except that breaking minimum heights and exceeding maximum speeds are the thin end of an overconfidence wedge - if not nipped in the bud, what would have been her next exploration of the rules?

[Two's in]

It's a shame there aren't some terrible and tragic examples out there of what can happen when display pilots and teams don't stick to the plan....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_air_show_accidents_and_incidents_in_the_21st_century

[The Helpful Stacker]

Except that breaking minimum heights and exceeding maximum speeds are the thin end of an overconfidence wedge - if not nipped in the bud, what would have been her next exploration of the rules?

Indeed.

I may only be an ex-stacker but even I know where that overconfidence wedge can lead. Czar 52 ...

[OvertHawk]

Brief it - Fly it.

Limits are there for reasons, especially in display / formation / aerobatics.

History is full of examples of what goes wrong when you break those limits and many people have died - including "civilians" on the ground.

The Thunderbirds themselves have suffered a number of tragedies as a result of deliberate or inadvertent deviation from SOP / minimums including a horrific formation crash that wiped out the whole flight. (*edit - see comment at bottom of post)



I can understand the USAF having zero tolerance of deliberate deviation. She'd been in the job two weeks and she broke the rules twice!!??

* edit - I stand corrected Gums - I had recalled that there was the suggestion that the lead had entered below the required datum but had not remembered the actual conclusion of the inquiry about the elevator linkage - Sorry!

[gums]

Salute!

I assume Hektor found some new news release about that gal at Shaw's demo team. I haven't seen anything on normal places. So a ref would be nice.

Secondly, the Thunderbird four ship smoking holes were because the lead had debris or broken part in the elevator linkage and was using both hands on stick to no avail... about only criticism was he should have let go with left hand for 2 or 3 seconds and called abort.
I was at a Blues show when the lead went below planned/briefed altitude and they aborted. We thot it was a bit low but also a new maneuver when wingies went left and right and up. He resigned that night or next day cause he felt he was "losing it" and they needed another lead. This was about 9 or 10 years ago at Lakeland Sun and Fun, if memory serves me.

Gums sends...

[admikar]

Brief it - Fly it.

Limits are there for reasons, especially in display / formation / aerobatics.

History is full of examples of what goes wrong when you break those limits and many people have died - including "civilians" on the ground.

The Thunderbirds themselves have suffered a number of tragedies as a result of deliberate or inadvertent deviation from SOP / minimums including a horrific formation crash that wiped out the whole flight.

I can understand the USAF having zero tolerance of deliberate deviation. She'd been in the job two weeks and she broke the rules twice!!??
This forum really needs like button

[Finningley Boy]

This forum really needs like button
Al "ike Button" you mean so you can simply endorse some posts?:)

FB