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skidbuggy
9th Feb 2019, 12:14
https://www.instagram.com/p/Btn2B8ihOmV/

jimjim1
9th Feb 2019, 12:25
Is that a boing 787?

Jet Jockey A4
9th Feb 2019, 12:28
You mean this one...

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-47177383/plane-struggles-to-land-in-strong-winds-at-heathrow-airport

DaveReidUK
9th Feb 2019, 12:29
Assuming the invisible link is a reference to the BA B788 at LHR yesterday, try Spectators Balcony here:

PPRuNe: Anyone know this pilot? Buy him a pint! (https://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/618151-anyone-know-pilot-buy-him-pint.html)

jimjim1
9th Feb 2019, 12:53
https://www.instagram.com/p/Btn2B8ihOmV/

Didn't think to check for invisible link.

Sailvi767
9th Feb 2019, 12:55
It looked like a well handled go around and was appropriate given the conditions.

jurassicjockey
9th Feb 2019, 12:59
Looks like full elevator input as the nose dropped. That was some ugly shear.

Jet Jockey A4
9th Feb 2019, 13:03
Looks like full elevator input as the nose dropped. That was some ugly shear.

Yes I noticed that too in the picture from the BBC link... Personally I think they did a great job recuperating from the event and the go-around was the right decision.

Capn Bloggs
9th Feb 2019, 13:34
That looks a bit crazy. Why would windshear suddenly pitch the nose down so abruptly? Fair enough the @rse drops out of it if you lose speed, but that was a violent pitch down. That was not the secondary effect of controls lowering the nose because the speed has reduced. Something fishy somewhere. Reminds me a bit of that Prune 787 (IIRC) video of weird nose down pitches on short final. Brother of MACS??

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/612655-ana-roller-coaster.html?highlight=787

jurassicjockey
9th Feb 2019, 13:36
Yes I noticed that too in the picture from the BBC link... Personally I think they did a great job recuperating from the event and the go-around was the right decision.

Reminds me of flying into St. John's on a nice day

CHfour
9th Feb 2019, 14:26
Looks like full elevator input as the nose dropped. That was some ugly shear.
True but there was a large down elevator input just before the nose pitched down.

The Ancient Geek
9th Feb 2019, 14:46
Looks to me like he should have gone around rather earlier rather than try to save an approach that had clearly gone wrong.
But he was there and I was not so what do I know.........

Carbon Bootprint
9th Feb 2019, 14:50
Didn't think to check for invisible link.
No one ever does. Very clever on the part of the OP. :O

Clearly, they should have should have tootled around the coast a bit before diverting to MAN. :}

Hotel Tango
9th Feb 2019, 14:55
Looks to me like he should have gone around rather earlier rather than try to save an approach that had clearly gone wrong.

Looked quite the opposite to me! It only went "wrong" in the last seconds and they immediately took the correct action which was well executed.

jurassicjockey
9th Feb 2019, 15:09
True but there was a large down elevator input just before the nose pitched down.

I think that you're looking at the flaperons. The elevator is visually blocked by the wing except for when it goes up. There is a large amount of flaperon movement just before the * hits the wall

Locked door
9th Feb 2019, 15:16
As per the previous poster, the elevator is completely obscured until the pitch up input. It looks like a really nasty shear late on with an excellent catch and well flown windshear go around, hence the gear staying down.

Nice job, stay safe out there.

Akrapovic
9th Feb 2019, 16:56
Reminds me of an incident easyJet had with an Airbus going in to Luton. FO under training for the left hand seat had a brain melt and stuffed the nose forward at low level. Not saying this is the case, but can’t be ruled out....

wiggy
9th Feb 2019, 17:02
Jeepers....I thought the NFL season finished last weekend and in any event it isn’t Monday for a couple of days.....

:oh:

Global Aviator
9th Feb 2019, 17:20
Approach in gusty conditions, wind does weird things!

Shite got real very low level...

Go around, perfectly executed!

BluSdUp
9th Feb 2019, 17:31
Windshear?
Or gust? Big difference!
Does anyone have the Metar and the Tower wind when cleared to land. And any " wind check"?

old,not bold
9th Feb 2019, 17:56
FO under training for the left hand seat had a brain melt and stuffed the nose forward at low level. Not saying this is the case, but can’t be ruled out.... Nice to have the AAIB on board, especially with such insight. But did you consider the possibility that all the passengers, seeing the problems the crew were having with gusts, decided to rush forward and advise them how to handle it? Not saying this is the case, but can’t be ruled out....

Global Aviator
9th Feb 2019, 18:23
Nice to have the AAIB on board, especially with such insight. But did you consider the possibility that all the passengers, seeing the problems the crew were having with gusts, decided to rush forward and advise them how to handle it? Not saying this is the case, but canít be ruled out....

Where is the like button!!!

student88
9th Feb 2019, 19:50
Excellent job by the professionals sat at the front :ok:

Well done to the crew.

srjumbo747
9th Feb 2019, 20:02
Perfectly flown. Last minute windshear and gone around hence the reason to leave the gear down until above MSA.

ILS27LEFT
9th Feb 2019, 20:49
Perfectly executed. Horrible ground level gusts at the time of this go around, excellent job done indeed. No reason to go around any earlier, all incoming flights were having very bumpy approaches at LHR most of yesterday and it would have meant all flights going around based on footage. GA started when appropriate and actually very very quickly considering the very sudden wind gust at basically ground level vs reaction time of pilot & then GA delay on aircraft.

Locked door
9th Feb 2019, 20:57
Perfectly flown. Last minute windshear and gone around hence the reason to leave the gear down until above MSA.


Really? Youíre confusing windshear with gpws. Back to flight sim.

Suvarnabhumi
9th Feb 2019, 21:01
Anyone know if the aircraft has flown again yet ? Or the max g load on touchdown?

Was it 27R and wind from the south ?

ManaAdaSystem
9th Feb 2019, 21:04
Really? Youíre confusing windshear with gpws. Back to flight sim.

Actually, the windshear escape manouvre calls for no configuration changes.

Locked door
9th Feb 2019, 21:09
Actually, the windshear escape manouvre calls for no configuration changes.



/bangs head against brick wall/

Correct, but MSA is irrelevant for windshear escape but very relevant for gpws escape.

I really wonder how many genuine commercial pilots there are on this forum.

ManaAdaSystem
9th Feb 2019, 21:12
The windshear escape manouvre does not consider terrain, it deals with windshear only.
You make me wonder.

FlightDetent
9th Feb 2019, 21:43
M.A.S, he was picking on the MSA bit of the previous post, not the no-change of configuration. You are both on the same page.

MaydayMaydayMayday
9th Feb 2019, 22:16
/bangs head against brick wall/

Correct, but MSA is irrelevant for windshear escape but very relevant for gpws escape.

I really wonder how many genuine commercial pilots there are on this forum.

I was already banging my head on the wall after the first one. Glad to see I've got some company! :ugh:

OntimeexceptACARS
9th Feb 2019, 22:35
When do you think they pressed TOGA? Before first touchdown? Looked an impressive climb out, no doubt helped by the windspeed. Asking as SLF...

CHfour
9th Feb 2019, 23:22
I think that you're looking at the flaperons. The elevator is visually blocked by the wing except for when it goes up. There is a large amount of flaperon movement just before the * hits the wall
You could well be right as I didn't know they had flaperons.

Gipsy Queen
9th Feb 2019, 23:27
As has been noted, it is difficult to see because the view is obscured by the wing, but it's almost as if the up-elevator anticipated the shear/gust. Commendably quick response on the part of the PF.

Loose rivets
10th Feb 2019, 01:40
Without making comment about this particular go-around, is it mandatory to buzz off, or can one legally push it back on?

wiggy
10th Feb 2019, 02:20
Anyone know if the aircraft has flown again yet ?



I gather it had a hard landing check (as did a handful of other aircraft at LHR that day) and I believe flew again with little if any change to it’s next planned rotation.

Capn Bloggs
10th Feb 2019, 03:32
or can one legally push it back on?
You could try, but this might be the result...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by4w6sapQ90

maggot
10th Feb 2019, 06:15
You could try, but this might be the result...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by4w6sapQ90

A tad dramatic perhaps but maybe. It depends. Maybe. In this case, probably not.

Bravohotel
10th Feb 2019, 06:38
Have you seen the second approach, almost did the same thing but did not go-around and landed ok.I have replayed both arrivals many times and its strange that a lot of the other arrivals around that time before & after seemed ok considering the condition.

overstress
10th Feb 2019, 07:26
Bravohotel, I land on that runway several times a month and I don’t think it was strange.

DaveReidUK
10th Feb 2019, 08:33
Was it 27R and wind from the south ?

Yes, 27R - you can see the BA 747 hangars in the background.

METAR 10 minutes before the GA was wind SSW 210/20 kt, gusting 34 kt. In fact you can see the windsock in the video.

Akrapovic
10th Feb 2019, 08:59
(Nice to have the AAIB on board, especially with such insight. But did you consider the possibility that all the passengers, seeing the problems the crew were having with gusts, decided to rush forward and advise them how to handle it? Not saying this is the case, but canít be ruled out....

Very droll

For info, hereís the incident;

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/airbus-a319-111-g-ezfv-14-february-2012

Something that actually happened, compared to your somewhat unlikely scenario....)

sleeper
10th Feb 2019, 10:22
When do you think they pressed TOGA? Before first touchdown? Looked an impressive climb out, no doubt helped by the windspeed. Asking as SLF...

No need to press toga immediately, just push the throttles forward and climb away. Toga can be pushed anytime in that sequence. Unless they were on an autoland, but I seriously doubt that.

Midland63
10th Feb 2019, 10:36
well flown windshear go around, hence the gear staying down.

Would the pro's care to explain to an SLF why gear stays down in a windshear (but not any other type of???) G/A?

wiggy
10th Feb 2019, 10:39
It stays down (intially) for both a Windshear Go Around or (if down) a GPWS pull up in case of ground contact.

Locked door
10th Feb 2019, 10:40
Not the only reason Wiggy

During a windshear or gpws event you need maximum performance from the aircraft immediately. The first thing that happens when you raise the gear is the huge gear doors open creating a large amount of extra drag before the gear legs start to move, significantly reducing the available performance. The gear raising process takes approximately ten seconds, during which time your performance is compromised.

donpizmeov
10th Feb 2019, 11:43
Not the only reason Wiggy

During a windshear or gpws event you need maximum performance from the aircraft immediately. The first thing that happens when you raise the gear is the huge gear doors open creating a large amount of extra drag before the gear legs start to move, significantly reducing the available performance. The gear raising process takes approximately ten seconds, during which time your performance is compromised.
Do you leave the gear down after an EFATO then?

Locked door
10th Feb 2019, 12:03
No, because an EFATO doesnít contain an immediately performance critical segment. The perf calculation includes the gear retraction and included in the type certification.

GPWS and windshear are immediate, unique dynamic events with no pre calculations where instantaneous max available performance may be required depending on the severity of the event.

if you donít believe me, try googling it!

wiggy
10th Feb 2019, 12:35
Not the only reason Wiggy..



Err, yes, I did appreciate that......I wasn’t sure at what level the questioner was operating at, so to speak, but thanks for providing the extra ...

and yes, FWIW I second the info in your reply to donpizmeov. :ok:

Mylius
10th Feb 2019, 14:42
Reminds me of an incident easyJet had with an Airbus going in to Luton. FO under training for the left hand seat had a brain melt and stuffed the nose forward at low level. Not saying this is the case, but canít be ruled out....

It can totally be ruled out because there were two Captains on this flight as well as a First Officer. Neither Captain is a trainer and the FO isnít senior enough for a 787 command.

What happened is the handling pilot flew a textbook rejected landing followed by what looks to be a windshear go-around in tricky conditions. Great job by the guys up front. It

Locked door
10th Feb 2019, 14:50
Thanks Wiggy, you’re much more sympathetic than me!

ATB

Midland63
10th Feb 2019, 17:30
During a windshear or gpws event you need maximum performance from the aircraft immediately. The first thing that happens when you raise the gear is the huge gear doors open creating a large amount of extra drag before the gear legs start to move, significantly reducing the available performance.

Thanks. Didn't appreciate the thing about the gear doors creating extra drag but understand now. But there seemed to be an implication that there was a different procedure re the gear (leaving them down for longer) in a G/A due to windshear compared with other G/As. Or did I misunderstand that wrongly and gear is left down longer in all G/As, for any reason, from a very low height, or having touched, compared with a G/A from higher up.

Locked door
10th Feb 2019, 17:53
The gear goes up almost immediately after a positive climb is achieved on a normal go around but stays down until the windshear is exited or positive terrain clearance is achieved ( often above msa) for gpws.

FlightDetent
10th Feb 2019, 18:12
Midland63 The L/G is kept down during the wind shear escape routine (also) because terrain impact is a possibility. The loads absorbed by the collapsing undercarriage structure make survival of the occupants more likely, any straw counts.

While the doors protruding into the airflow will add drag, and the explanations above that it is accounted for in the EFATO case are sound, the mainstay B737 does not have any on the main landing gear. Go figure? The priority on both GWPS (terrain) and WSHR (loss of lift) scenarios must be to fly the aeroplane up, as the single objective. I gather that history teaches us messing with configuration might be detrimental to the crew's coordinated effort to ensure max thrust is set and peak climb performance is established (with speed-brakes retracted).

My best guess is that avoiding the doors' extra drag applies for GPWS, where the danger of impact is truly immediate. For WSHR, the impact-survival aspect would be the reason, which covers the 737 too. As well you want to keep the procedures simple and similar as much as practicable. What is seen in the video may be better described as a low-level G/A with unavoidable touchdown due to a de-stabilized flare, owing to gust (most likely). The industry standard wind shear model is probably different, though related. Still, the L/G lever is not to be touched!

FlightDetent
10th Feb 2019, 18:24
Just realized that opening the NW bay, thus exposing the whell-well into the airflow at higher AoA, might in fact be quite significant.

greenfields
10th Feb 2019, 19:00
No need to press toga immediately, just push the throttles forward and climb away. Toga can be pushed anytime in that sequence. Unless they were on an autoland, but I seriously doubt that.

Unless it was for WINDSHEAR, in which case the TOGA switches are pressed prior to advancing the TLs.

The L/G is kept down during the wind shear escape routine (also) because terrain impact is a possibility

This is a by product of the escape manoeuvres, not a reason for it to remain down. The gear is left down (no change to config) for one reason only - the performance of the aircraft. It is not left down in case of ground contact, rather it is left down to avoid ground contact (by not increasing drag as the doors open.)

JanetFlight
10th Feb 2019, 19:57
Seen and heard from the inside...a few shouts ...


facebook.com/BigJetTV/videos/vb.168124773665425/351089042153464

BluSdUp
10th Feb 2019, 20:06
All my Types have the same: Max Pwr NO Config change!
Industry standard for GPWS and Low level Wind Shear escape I gather:

Greenfields
I do disagree, the Gear stays as there is plenty of times the aircraft touches down after a momentary positive climb.( Microburst mostly).
Secondary touchdown with gear in transit will ruin Your day.
Also remember if You have to trade all your airspeed down towards shaker, that gear does not give you much drag as it is the old " Parasite Drag" so it gets less with less speed.

Bravohotel
10th Feb 2019, 21:39
Overstress I was referring to the Aircraft and the crews action ,not the runway. 27R was in use and all other arrivals seemed normal (some crews nailed it) considering the conditions,those hangers can cause issues in SSW winds.I wish I could post the video of the second approach and landing but unable too.

CONSO
10th Feb 2019, 23:25
Thanks. Didn't appreciate the thing about the gear doors creating extra drag but understand now. But there seemed to be an implication that there was a different procedure re the gear (leaving them down for longer) in a G/A due to windshear compared with other G/As. Or did I misunderstand that wrongly and gear is left down longer in all G/As, for any reason, from a very low height, or having touched, compared with a G/A from higher up.

Uhhh 737 do not really have ' doors' over the main gear- so discussion re gear doors on 737 are ??

CONSO
10th Feb 2019, 23:31
Thanks. Didn't appreciate the thing about the gear doors creating extra drag but understand now. But there seemed to be an implication that there was a different procedure re the gear (leaving them down for longer) in a G/A due to windshear compared with other G/As. Or did I misunderstand that wrongly and gear is left down longer in all G/As, for any reason, from a very low height, or having touched, compared with a G/A from higher up.

Uhhh 737 do not really have ' doors' over the MAIN gear- so discussion re gear doors on 737 are ??

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/16476/how-is-the-737-main-landing-gear-protected-from-weather

ManaAdaSystem
11th Feb 2019, 02:27
All my Types have the same: Max Pwr NO Config change!
Industry standard for GPWS and Low level Wind Shear escape I gather:

Greenfields
I do disagree, the Gear stays as there is plenty of times the aircraft touches down after a momentary positive climb.( Microburst mostly).
Secondary touchdown with gear in transit will ruin Your day.
Also remember if You have to trade all your airspeed down towards shaker, that gear does not give you much drag as it is the old " Parasite Drag" so it gets less with less speed.

Can we have one example of an aircraft touching down after a momentary positive climb in a microburst, please?

ROW_BOT
11th Feb 2019, 03:15
Airbus have a ‘baulked landing procedure’ for this very situation and it instructs the pilot to make no immediate configuration changes in the go-around from such a situation. The reason is nothing to do with windshear or whatever - it’s because the standard action of retracting some Flap might result in sink. If the gear has been/is being retracted too, you could be in for ground contact and a disaster.

i don’t know if Boeing teach this, but it seems like a good idea to me, and the crew on this flight got it absolutely right.
maybe they were ex Airbus ;)

donpizmeov
11th Feb 2019, 05:22
Midland63 The L/G is kept down during the wind shear escape routine (also) because terrain impact is a possibility. The loads absorbed by the collapsing undercarriage structure make survival of the occupants more likely, any straw counts.

While the doors protruding into the airflow will add drag, and the explanations above that it is accounted for in the EFATO case are sound, the mainstay B737 does not have any on the main landing gear. Go figure? The priority on both GWPS (terrain) and WSHR (loss of lift) scenarios must be to fly the aeroplane up, as the single objective. I gather that history teaches us messing with configuration might be detrimental to the crew's coordinated effort to ensure max thrust is set and peak climb performance is established (with speed-brakes retracted).

My best guess is that avoiding the doors' extra drag applies for GPWS, where the danger of impact is truly immediate. For WSHR, the impact-survival aspect would be the reason, which covers the 737 too. As well you want to keep the procedures simple and similar as much as practicable. What is seen in the video may be better described as a low-level G/A with unavoidable touchdown due to a de-stabilized flare, owing to gust (most likely). The industry standard wind shear model is probably different, though related. Still, the L/G lever is not to be touched!

it was some years ago, but an Airbus Flight Test Pilot, Engineer and performance geek gave a very close answer to the above WRT windshear escape at a getting to grips chat . They stated that in days of old, with older designed airframes, and less powerful engines, raising the gear was performance limiting, in some cases even in benign conditions. These aircraft needed full power for missed approaches , and had little power to reduce for takeoff .
But with modern designed, engine thrust can be reduced by upto 40% for takeoff at lighter weights (A380) and have max landing weights almost 200T lighter than takeoff weights (A380) . For missed approaches reduced thrust is used to limit climb rates. Performance wise, modern design of airframe and engines is far superior to a lot of older designs (not all though) .
As speed when after takeoff or fully configured for landing is low, and for modern Airbus FBW the effect of raising the gear is considered minimal .
However, they consider windshear encountered below 500 feet as the most performance limiting . As on approach speed will be established at Vapp and, with autothrust, Eng RPM may be low, putting the aircraft in a low energy situation. Due to the chance of ground contact, it was decided not to change any procedure, but rather have both pilots fully concentrating on flying the aeroplane without any distraction .

PW1830
11th Feb 2019, 05:50
As above
"Due to the chance of ground contact, it was decided not to change any procedure, but rather have both pilots fully concentrating on flying the aeroplane without any distraction ."

That's the answer.

KelvinD
11th Feb 2019, 06:43
Uhhh 737 do not really have ' doors' over the MAIN gear- so discussion re gear doors on 737 are ??
I thought the aircraft central to this discussion was a 787?

The Fat Controller
11th Feb 2019, 07:42
After this event, it's being renamed the BOING 787, according to my mate Zebedee.....

DaveReidUK
11th Feb 2019, 07:58
After this event, it's being renamed the BOING 787, according to my mate Zebedee.....

As per post #2, for those who have been reading the thread from the start ...

donpizmeov
11th Feb 2019, 07:58
After this event, it's being renamed the BOING 787, according to my mate Zebedee.....

like it :D

yeoman
11th Feb 2019, 08:34
Unless it was for WINDSHEAR, in which case the TOGA switches are pressed prior to advancing the TLs.



This is a by product of the escape manoeuvres, not a reason for it to remain down. The gear is left down (no change to config) for one reason only - the performance of the aircraft. It is not left down in case of ground contact, rather it is left down to avoid ground contact (by not increasing drag as the doors open.)

NP on the 787 leaves the A/T engaged at all times. A gotcha is that should the main gear contact the ground, the A/T drops out. No idea if the TOGA switches were pressed before or after touch down in this case? Also, if WINDSHEAR is detected the AFDS function is altered. I believe this is common to the 777 and was a factor in the EK accident a while back in which TOGA was presumably pressed but the T/L didn’t advance as the aircraft had touched down and the crew rotated and residual energy started a climb which was short lived as there was no / little thrust.

Happy to be corrected on any / all of the above.

Check Airman
11th Feb 2019, 11:37
Alternatively, they may have flown a "normal" GA profile, and forgot/failed to raise the gear right away. Seen it happen before.

Good job saving the aircraft though.

Global Aviator
11th Feb 2019, 12:07
Is this thread still going? How? Such a non event!

How many of you here have landed after an aircraft in front has gone around? Or for that matter you have gone around and next aircraft landed?

It is called weather, called gusts for that reason... At one point in time is not the same as a minute later!

I’ve listebed to GA, land, land, GA, GA, land... My turn eeeee it’s rough very GA minded but landed, oh another time thought landing no problem (decent cross) and wala went around.

Aviation 101 taught from day dot.

INKJET
11th Feb 2019, 12:32
Missed approaches or go around are frequently mishandled, the most common being delayed gear retraction, no big deal on what will have been a fairly light aircraft with both engines operating.

If if there was wind shear even without a warning I would delay gear/ flap retraction as the wind shear guidance computer gets messed up by configuration change.

TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft.

For wind shear escape after a wind shear warning (not caution) its all about terrain avoidance and advancing the thrust levers to full thrust ( FDEC prevents exceeding thrust limits) and pitching to the PLI’s ( pitch limit indicators)

In this go around and given the forecast wx covered an extended period I too would have diverted to my alternate, yes they might have got in on a second attempt but why push it? go to MAN refuel and put the passengers on a MAH LHR shuttle if need be.

rog747
11th Feb 2019, 12:34
Filmed from inside the 787 GA - Twas a ruff day mind....


https://twitter.com/Silveri54534683/status/1094689443007606785

BluSdUp
11th Feb 2019, 12:54
Sure
Quite a few in simulators of say 5-600 instructed if executed wrong or starting of to strong.
It have to be said the CAE models are a bit rough, and if run at 100% it is a bit negative training as it is easy to end up with a crash.
The FAA (Nasa/ Ntsb?) models are a bit better.
Mind You I have not done any Sim Instruction the last 10 years so they may have gotten more realistic.
In real life cant say I recall any, no, Ergo training has worked , Eh Mana!?
Mind you , there is one on approach that is modeled after a US accident were it looks like you are out of the shear and then the BIG one hits. This one is quite late on approach so it ends with ground contact at time , during training.
Anyway
Second touch down or a controlled crash ,just do not mess with the gear until climbing away, and out of shear.

misd-agin
11th Feb 2019, 17:28
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.

Locked door
11th Feb 2019, 19:50
Yes they do. Been there, done that, learned from it.

jimjim1
11th Feb 2019, 19:59
As per post #2, for those who have been reading the thread from the start ...
A simple "boing" was it seems mostly not enough.

I know what to do next time -

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/298x110/coollogo_com_296151279_1b098a1deeed9725d7a52da51ec6ff00bf566 c80.gif





Thanks, https://flamingtext.com.

4runner
12th Feb 2019, 02:04
Really? Youíre confusing windshear with gpws. Back to flight sim.

youíre confusing the two actually.

wiggy
12th Feb 2019, 06:11
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.

Just my simplistic tenpennies worth again...;)

Those that land on that runway a lot ( LHR 27R) will no doubt testify that with the sort of wind strength and direction on the day in question (i.e. lots from a south westerly direction) it gets very very “bumpy”:ooh: on final due to airflow over the west base and central area structures. As a result I’d hazard a guess you are not just dealing with aircraft and flight path behaviour due to horizontal gusts and simple wind shear 101 as taught with respect to CBs, etc, there are possibly also issues with rotors, chaotic flow, and whatever else is churned up or shed by the upwind structures...Translated into pilot speak it can get “rough as ****” on finals to 27R in those circumstances, and IMVHO I don’t think it is possible to simply look at that video and then analyse the nature of the airflow, aircraft response and say what is seen is down to any single cause.

FWIW for a few years if the Met was as forecast/observed that day the preferential runway system was junked and landings were assigned 27L to stay upwind on West/base central area and so avoid the turbulence​​​​​.

DaveReidUK
12th Feb 2019, 08:08
FWIW for a few years if the Met was as forecast/observed that day the preferential runway system was junked and landings were assigned 27L to stay upwind on West/base central area and so avoid the turbulence​​​​​.

I believe that policy is still nominally in place, at least according to Heathrow's website:

Weather can also affect the use of alternation. For example, strong south-westerly winds can blow across the various buildings in Heathrowís maintenance area and affect the approach for aircraft landing on the northern runway on westerly operations. When this occurs, we switch to landing on the southern runway for safety reasons.

https://www.heathrow.com/noise/heathrow-operations/runway-alternation

That said, it's well over a year, maybe longer, since that appears to have been last used in anger.

Capn Bloggs
12th Feb 2019, 08:29
I wish they'd hold those cameras steady... and Landscape! Got a sore neck trying to follow the Boing... :}

sleeper
12th Feb 2019, 09:42
TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft.





Technically correct if you leave the autopilot engaged. I doubt however that that was the case here, they were flying manually and then the first response in such a quick changing environment is pull and push, in other words, fly the aircraft. All the fancy auto and guidance systems can be used and engaged later.

For clarity, pull the yoke and push the trottle.

TURIN
12th Feb 2019, 10:19
If the gusts were that bad you'd think there'd be multiple videos of planes going around. Airliners don't suddenly nose over, especially at that pitch rate, due to windshear.

I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.

HPSOV L
12th Feb 2019, 11:43
There’s something weird here.
Even a fairly large reduction in airspeed should not result such an aggressive pitch down. It begs the question of whether it could be a problem in the Flight Control FBW logic. Especially given the similarity to the ANA event in alluded to by an earlier poster.

OLNEY2d
12th Feb 2019, 12:37
"Translated into pilot speak it can get “rough as ****” on finals to 27R in those circumstances"

Indeed.

A few words of non-sentimental remembrance and lament for R/W 23 are called for.

Although, it too was quite capable of generating some "rough as ****" approaches. I remember the shaky-voiced RT emanating from the Air Canada TriStar landing in front of us one wintry night: "Man, that was something" he said in tremulous tones. ATC agreed and said that it looked like quite the ride. A hush descended on our flight deck.

Mike6567
12th Feb 2019, 13:10
I agree with HPSOV that the aggressive pitch down is difficult to understand. The FDR readout would be interesting.
Well done to the crew.

DaveReidUK
12th Feb 2019, 13:28
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.

Interesting. Are you sure ?

All but 4 of BA's B744s have been in action as recently as yesterday.

The exceptions are two a/c at Cardiff on maintenance, one at Dublin for painting and one that hasn't flown since arriving from CPT on Friday morning. The latter arrived just ahead of a DL A333, so if it bent anything on landing, it didn't stop it taxying off the runway.

ironbutt57
13th Feb 2019, 10:48
Thereís something weird here.
Even a fairly large reduction in airspeed should not result such an aggressive pitch down. It begs the question of whether it could be a problem in the Flight Control FBW logic. Especially given the similarity to the ANA event in alluded to by an earlier poster.

one might suspect the pitch down was environmentally effected......

DaveReidUK
13th Feb 2019, 12:27
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.

Further to my post yesterday, the one remaining BA B744 that could have been a candidate is currently airborne enroute to Denver, so the suggestion that one is grounded at LHR and unairworthy after a hard landing appears to be without any basis.

woodpecker
15th Feb 2019, 18:49
A few words of non-sentimental remembrance and lament for R/W 23 are called for

23L departed years ago, now the Southall gasometer has gone!

Once landed a Trident on 23R.

Sorry, didn't mean to mention the "T" word!

eckhard
15th Feb 2019, 19:10
Iíve used both 23L and 05R in a Citation.

pianoforte
16th Feb 2019, 06:32
Not sure what "done that" means. Could you amplify?

Paulm1949
16th Feb 2019, 10:52
My 2 pence worth.. caused by gust and not windshear. Over controlled/ too many control inputs by the crew.

Fargoo
16th Feb 2019, 10:53
I'm led to believe there is currently a company 747 at LHR with more evidence of this sort of thing. Damage so bad it may not fly again.

I'm led to believe your source was speaking equine excrement on this occasion.

porkflyer
16th Feb 2019, 11:17
Really? Youíre confusing windshear with gpws. Back to flight sim.
Well I think probably you should go back to the sim. No change of configuration recites the QRH

TURIN
16th Feb 2019, 11:18
I'm led to believe your source was speaking equine excrement on this occasion.

I tend to agree. Serves me right for earwigging. My apologies.

woodpecker
17th Feb 2019, 19:44
Sorry, didn't mean to mention the "T" word!

Those who understand the the "T" word might be saddened to learn that they're planning to demolish the Fawley chimney

DuctOvht
18th Feb 2019, 08:17
Missed approaches or go around are frequently mishandled, the most common being delayed gear retraction, no big deal on what will have been a fairly light aircraft with both engines operating.

If if there was wind shear even without a warning I would delay gear/ flap retraction as the wind shear guidance computer gets messed up by configuration change.

TOGA should always be pressed other wise advancing the thrust alone will simply accelerate the aircraft towards the ground as it could still in in G/S mode, one press of TOGA ( TAKE OFF/GO AROUND) will give you a FD pitch up and thrust guidance and change from G/S and normally a 1000-2000 fpm rate of climb using reduced go around thrust, a second press will give you full G/A thrust and a ballistic rate of climb in a light and very powerful aircraft.

For wind shear escape after a wind shear warning (not caution) its all about terrain avoidance and advancing the thrust levers to full thrust ( FDEC prevents exceeding thrust limits) and pitching to the PLIís ( pitch limit indicators)

In this go around and given the forecast wx covered an extended period I too would have diverted to my alternate, yes they might have got in on a second attempt but why push it? go to MAN refuel and put the passengers on a MAH LHR shuttle if need be.


Inkjet,

Iíve always assumed you were an airline pilot, and suspect that we possibly worked for the same company at one point. Other than the utter drivel written on this particular thread by people who clearly have no idea what theyíre talking about, Iím not sure that Iíve ever read so much twaddle from someone who should seemingly know better.

Just because one company does things a certain way, doesnít mean that they all do. Stop criticising professionals from behind your keyboard when you werenít there, donít know the circumstances and have no idea as to what SOPs the crew were working to. Your last paragraph demonstrates a staggering level of naivety.

The simple truth is that this was a well handled baulked landing/windshear go-around in nasty conditions that happened to be caught on camera by some spotters who want views on their website, nothing more. In the very sad world in which we now live, it was dramatised, picked up as click bait by other news organisations & websites, passed around social media and poured over by armchair experts. The last thing it needs is fellow Ďprofessionalí pilots to publicly confuse their arse for their elbow and start talking from the former.