Dual flying qualification - pilot/navigator

[Tankertrashnav]

I was reading the obituary of Ward Thomas, founder of Yorkshire Television, and it said that he trained as a pilot and navigator in South Africa, before being posted to 100 Squadron as a Lancaster pilot and then as a navigator on 550 Squadron. There is a photograph of Thomas with his crew on 550 where he is clearly wearing a nav brevet. The obituary goes on to say that he subsequently flew as a pilot with Swissair until 1953.

My question is - was there any system of "dual training" where you could come out with both qualifications? It seems unlikely to me, I am more inclined to think that the obit writer has got it wrong and that he was "remustered" as a nav after his time on 100, or perhaps he was always a nav. Indeed he may well have flown as a navigator with Swissair, not as a pilot as the writer assumed.

Anybody have any info on this?

[ACW418]

TTN,

Ward Thomas, Gwyn Edward "Ward" Thomas, was certainly on the Bowen-Bravery crew of 550 Sqn. and is definitely shown as the Nav. 550 Sqn. was formed out of 100 Sqn. at Waltham in November 1943 so it is most likely that he was part of the same crew on 100 and thus probably a Nav as well. On the formation of 550 the crew photograph shows him as a Flt Sgt which would fit after a year or so on 100. 100 Sqn was re-formed at Waltham in December 1942 out of the same Sqn that was in Singapore and then Australia becoming 100 Sqn RAAF. After the war he became a pilot with Swissair which leads to the puzzle did he first qualify as a pilot. I certainly know of a gentleman near here who qualified as a pilot about that time but when he arrived back in the UK was told that they had enough pilots and he became a Rear Gunner on IX Sqn. so the same may have happened to your man.

ACW

[Bengo]

There several Royal Navy Aviators who are trained as both Observers and as Pilots. They are describef officially as seaman officers of the X(F) specialisation rather than X(O) or X(P). Don't know if there are any still serving though.

N

[harrym]

I recall being told by a South African Air Force officer on exchange (way back in 1950) that SAAF pilots were multi-taskers, having been trained also as navigators and radio operators; I have no reason to believe I was being conned!

However when on exchange to the RAF they were required only to act as pilot or navigator, WOPs not being included in the exchange scheme.

[JW411]

Without even thinking too deeply about it, I know of 2 navs, an AEO and a Cpl Armourer that spring to mind who went on to have long and successful careers as airline captains.

[rolling20]

TTN, I am with you and think there is a mistake somewhere. His service number indicates he joined up around September 1941. He arrived as a Navigator on 550 from 1667 HCU on 18.12.43 and was posted out on 9.7.44 to 11 Base,partof 1 Groups training organisation. I am assuming he trained intially as a pilot and then remustered as a Navigator. The period of just over 2 years to an operational squadron would seem about right if he had to change trades as a Navigator, not knowing of course if and when he was 'washed out'. Not sure where 100 squadron comes in. If after 6 months rest at 11 Base he may have gone back on ops with 100? Or have been a 'spare bod', who may have filled in as when needed in 1 Group squadrons. Post war Swiss Air, flew DC4s across the Atlantic and they carried a navigator. There is a story on the net of a chap who joined in July 41, went for pilot training in the US and was found to be 'unsuitable' and was shipped to Canada to be a nav. He made it to an operational squadron in June 43.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the help so far. As an aside I remember a chap on the staff of the sea survival school at Mount Batten (Simon something or other?) whose party trick was to appear wearing pilots' wings on day one and as a nav on day two. In his case I believe he had been a nav and had managed to retrain as a pilot, and was thus entitled to wear either flying badge.

[oldmansquipper]

Without even thinking too deeply about it, I know of 2 navs, an AEO and a Cpl Armourer that spring to mind who went on to have long and successful careers as airline captains.

JW. Begs the question which of the Navs provided reedin and which provided rytin skills for the plumber? �� Or was it the other way round?��

Add the recently retired 777 captain who was a Cpl electronics (I think) out in Germany with me.

����

[Melchett01]

Thanks for the help so far. As an aside I remember a chap on the staff of the sea survival school at Mount Batten (Simon something or other?) whose party trick was to appear wearing pilots' wings on day one and as a nav on day two. In his case I believe he had been a nav and had managed to retrain as a pilot, and was thus entitled to wear either flying badge.

As a further aside, I know of at least 2 pilots who before receiving their 'wings' were RW Nav / LM respectively. They wore their wings on a daily basis when on Sqn, but had their original brevet sewn under the lapel of their No 1s and 5s as a reminder.

[wub]

On a slight thread drift, a friend of mine was an RAF Dental Officer who was offered aircrew training and became a rotary pilot.

[Yellow Sun]

On a slight thread drift, a friend of mine was an RAF Dental Officer who was offered aircrew training and became a rotary pilot.
.....and there was a tanker navigator who became a RAF Dental Officer.

YS

[dctyke]

Isn't every single seater is a pilot/navigator ��

[Homelover]

I’ve known one or two navs who’ve made decent pilots after crossing over. But mostly, they were streamed as ‘not pilots’ for good reason!

I’ll get my coat.....

[Wensleydale]

Before WW2, the pilot was responsible for everything to do with the aircraft and the observer "observed". At the beginning of WW2, a directive from Bomber Command stated that each bomber had to carry two pilots and two WOps in case the primary was incapacitated. On 4 seat aircraft, such as the Hampden therefore, the observer role was carried out by a junior pilot who gained experience from the aircraft nose before being given his own crew. Indeed, breaches in flying discipline by pilots often led to a spell as observer for the unfortunate miscreant. One pilot at Waddington was peeved when he had to air test his Hampden rather than go to the outdoor swimming pool in Lincoln with the rest of his Squadron. He therefore treated the pool to a very low flypast which was unfortunate because the chap on the diving board who had to jump in to avoid the Hampden happened to be his Squadron Commander. The result was a month restricted to flying as observer. Shortly after, the pilot (Dave Romans) was on a raid when he felt the aircraft begin to reach the stall and dive. He made his way through the tunnel under the pilot to find his pilot slumped unconscious over the controls. Unable to move him, Romans collapsed the back of the pilots' seat and sat on the prone body of the pilot to bring the Hampden back under control. The wireless operator eventually noticed what was happening and pulled the pilot from under Romans allowing him to safely bring the aircraft back to Waddington. Unfortunately, the pilot later died - he had been hit by a piece of flak shrapnel that had punctured his skull, just behind his ear. Dave Romans was awarded an immediate DFC - and got his captaincy back. The two pilot rule was later rescinded as there were insufficient pilots being trained to cover losses of two per aircraft.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mike Bush was a Rhodesian I think who qualified as a nav but managed to get a pilot slot. Qualified as a pilot flying Buccs and finally retired to fly Civvie. I remember seeing his photo in a paper once.

[langleybaston]

I believe there was more than one medical doctor with wings but have no examples. One of my sons-in-law qualified as a doctor, did his PPL, but decided to go on to be a consultant orthopaedic surgeon, with income roughly that of an air commodore with power to add.
Good decision.

[TBM-Legend]

I know at least a dozen RAAF Navs that went onto being RAAF pilots....

[5aday]

I started as an AEOp on Shacks in Ballykelly,and AEOp Dryman in Malta - and in civilian life as a Pilot on a wide range of twin turbines followed by B747.100 to 400 series and B737,B757 and B767 (all in Maersk Air and British Airways .and as a TRE and IRE ( Fixed Wing) and at the same time. Then in the VR as Dryman AEOp from 1986 until 1994 at Kinloss,and finally retiring from flying in 2002. As an aside I ran a weather information system from 1996 until 2016 in Formula 1 For McLaren, Jordan, and finally Renault unti 2016,
Le Mans Series and DTM, plus 5 years at the Lawn Tennis at wimbledon, and another five years at the Opera in Verona. It was a busy life with five radar rigs circulating Europe and three sets following F1 around the world in containers.As an aside I was on the Nimrod MK3 AEW as test team on the Comet XV626 for a couple of years as Marconi Eliott Avionic Systems Staff down the back end.. And I installed a radar system on a flower farm in Tarlton, near Johannesberg in South Africa. I did all my licences at CSE Oxford .
and paid for them myself by part time work (non flying)
After finishing with the Nimrod and Shackleton fleet, the only Navigator was on the AEW Comet (Reg Castle?) or the occasional pax who wanted to see how he had been replaced on the Boeings.
As and aside my favorite opera was Nabucco and I had a beautiful villa beside Lake Garda while doing the approximate four months of Opera each year.
Oh, and I forgot - I ferryed new aeroplanes for De Havilland Canada out of Downsview, Toronto
I'm 71 now and wouldn't have missed a single thing.
.

[ve3id]

On a slight thread drift, a friend of mine was an RAF Dental Officer who was offered aircrew training and became a rotary pilot.
Perhaps he did a bad root canal for the C.O.?

[air pig]

On a slight thread drift, a friend of mine was an RAF Dental Officer who was offered aircrew training and became a rotary pilot.

The interesting part is he/she will have done SERE not main course at Cranwell, did he/she have to go back through IOT and start from the beginning?

[air pig]

Phil Leckenby, two tours on Vulcans 44 and 101 then a flying instructional tour at Cranwell, where he lost his left eye in an RTA. Fought admin and medical establishments and went to Finningley to nav school. Graduated and did two tours on Buccanners as an navigator, one with the RN and one on 12 Squadron of film fame.

[BEagle]

Of course there was 'Pippa', who was initially a V-bomber pilot and was subsequently unsuccessful at TWU during FJ cross-over training after the Vulcan left service. Rather than go back to being a ME pilot on another type, he elected to become a FJ navigator and was quite successful, if less than popular.

But when he took a Gp Capt position with the Air Cadets, presiding over the death of Air Cadet gliding, he wore his pilot badge rather than his nav brevet...:confused:

[rolling20]

Before WW2, the pilot was responsible for everything to do with the aircraft and the observer "observed". At the beginning of WW2, a directive from Bomber Command stated that each bomber had to carry two pilots and two WOps in case the primary was incapacitated. On 4 seat aircraft, such as the Hampden therefore, the observer role was carried out by a junior pilot who gained experience from the aircraft nose before being given his own crew. Indeed, breaches in flying discipline by pilots often led to a spell as observer for the unfortunate miscreant. One pilot at Waddington was peeved when he had to air test his Hampden rather than go to the outdoor swimming pool in Lincoln with the rest of his Squadron. He therefore treated the pool to a very low flypast which was unfortunate because the chap on the diving board who had to jump in to avoid the Hampden happened to be his Squadron Commander. The result was a month restricted to flying as observer. Shortly after, the pilot (Dave Romans) was on a raid when he felt the aircraft begin to reach the stall and dive. He made his way through the tunnel under the pilot to find his pilot slumped unconscious over the controls. Unable to move him, Romans collapsed the back of the pilots' seat and sat on the prone body of the pilot to bring the Hampden back under control. The wireless operator eventually noticed what was happening and pulled the pilot from under Romans allowing him to safely bring the aircraft back to Waddington. Unfortunately, the pilot later died - he had been hit by a piece of flak shrapnel that had punctured his skull, just behind his ear. Dave Romans was awarded an immediate DFC - and got his captaincy back. The two pilot rule was later rescinded as there were insufficient pilots being trained to cover losses of two per aircraft.
I think before the war all multi engined bombers ( aside of the Hampden) carried 2 pilots. The change back to single pilots was more to do with the expansion of the force and the introduction of the 4 engined heavies/ flight engineers being introduced.

[rolling20]

I believe there was more than one medical doctor with wings but have no examples. One of my sons-in-law qualified as a doctor, did his PPL, but decided to go on to be a consultant orthopaedic surgeon, with income roughly that of an air commodore with power to add.
Good decision.
I had the pleasure of taking a winged lady doctor up from CFS in 92. Can't remember her name however.

[Barksdale Boy]

The SMO at South Cerney in 1965, a Wg Cdr Cheshire (no relation as far as I know) wore pilot wings.

[Wensleydale]

I think before the war all multi engined bombers ( aside of the Hampden) carried 2 pilots. The change back to single pilots was more to do with the expansion of the force and the introduction of the 4 engined heavies/ flight engineers being introduced.

That is true - however, by a quirk of the "rule book", it also applied to the Hampden for a while....the two pilot Hampden rule disappeared before the introduction of the flight engineer. On a similar subject, I have vague memories of introducing the Sentry into RAF Service, with some wag from Group insisting that the Sentry crew carried out regular parachute drills iaw the 11 Group Flying Order Book. There were many rules that didn't specify FJ crew only and the documents had to be amended quite quickly.

[Hydromet]

In the Australian Army in about 1970, we had a Chaplain with pilot wings, and, slightly earlier, one with SAS wings. The SAS Chaplain also had WW II naval gongs.

[BEagle]

At RAFC in 1968, the senior CofE god-botherer had pilot's wings and kept his hand in flying the JP. "Going up to be a bit closer to the Boss", as he put it.

At one time, the chaplaincy branch had members with enough varied brevets to crew a medium bomber.

[langleybaston]

And there were Rocks that flew through the air, or pilots who became Rocks.

[Wander00]

Gp Capt SMO at the Towers '63 time was also pilot qualified, as was Goeffrey Dhenin who flew a Canberra though at least one of the nuclear test clouds and went on to be an Air Marshal. Oddly, called in at a small French airfield (Pons-Avy) one day and got talking to a guy there, turned out to be Dhenin's son in law

[Pontius Navigator]

With the move to high altitude and more extreme flight conditions it was thought beneficial to train doctors who wanted to specialise in AvMed to fly. Remember aircraft in the 50s were either pressurised or pressurised to much lower pressures than now.

[Tankertrashnav]

.....and there was a tanker navigator who became a RAF Dental Officer.

Retired and living in Plymouth the last I heard. He came to a couple of the V Force reunions at Newark and kept us amused with his tales of his time as an RAF dentist.

[Yellow Sun]

Retired and living in Plymouth the last I heard. He came to a couple of the V Force reunions at Newark and kept us amused with his tales of his time as an RAF dentist.

Glad to hear he is OK, he was a fine chap. Even though I was a bit apprehensive about letting someone who resembled a navy stoker loose in my mouth.

;)YS

[NRU74]

Glad to hear he is OK, he was a fine chap. Even though I was a bit apprehensive about letting someone who resembled a navy stoker loose in my mouth.

;)YS

I seem to recall that he did do an exchange tour, as a Dentist, with the fishheads.

[beardy]

Of course there was 'Pippa', who was initially a V-bomber pilot and was subsequently unsuccessful at TWU during FJ cross-over training after the Vulcan left service. Rather than go back to being a ME pilot on another type, he elected to become a FJ navigator and was quite successful, if less than popular.

But when he took a Gp Capt position with the Air Cadets, presiding over the death of Air Cadet gliding, he wore his pilot badge rather than his nav brevet...:confused:

He was 'initially' an F4 nav and QWI both in ground attack and air defence roles long before becoming a Vulcan copilot. He was entitled to wear the badge appropriate to the role he was executing.

[BEagle]

Thanks for the correction, beardy, it's important to get the facts straight!

But if Pippa held such a high qualification in the art of 'triggernometry' as an FJ nav, it is surprising that he chose to wear his pilot's badge during his time with the Air Cadet Organisation?

The F-4 QWI course was a very tough one! During my OCU course at Coningsby, one of their students was asked by his instructor "Who do you think you are to turn up and bash off a quick 12 hour day?"

[Union Jack]

I was reading the obituary of Ward Thomas, founder of Yorkshire Television, and it said that he trained as a pilot and navigator in South Africa, before being posted to 100 Squadron as a Lancaster pilot and then as a navigator on 550 Squadron. There is a photograph of Thomas with his crew on 550 where he is clearly wearing a nav brevet. The obituary goes on to say that he subsequently flew as a pilot with Swissair until 1953.

My question is - was there any system of "dual training" where you could come out with both qualifications? It seems unlikely to me, I am more inclined to think that the obit writer has got it wrong and that he was "remustered" as a nav after his time on 100, or perhaps he was always a nav. Indeed he may well have flown as a navigator with Swissair, not as a pilot as the writer assumed.

Anybody have any info on this?

I can only answer for the dark blue but, having greatly enjoyed all the interesting responses to date, I hope that I may be allowed to highlight the question TTN actually posed, namely “... was there any system of "dual training" where you could come out with both qualifications?”. I take this to mean where aircrew were specifically trained for the dual role, rather than the myriad of responses relating to people going from one sub specialisation or branch to another for whatever reason, either consecutively, on transfer, or subsequently in the big outside world - even a flying "fang farrier"!

Bengo’s response is therefore really the only one that’s completely on track, whereby a limited number of seaman specialist officers sub specialised as aircrew did indeed qualify as (F) rather than (P) or (O), and I decided to have a look to see what I could find. I therefore started by selecting the 1980 Navy List and the 1981 List of Retired Officers, which seemed good places to look for an indication of those shown as (F) whom some PPRuNers might have met or known. Unfortunately, however, there is no indication of sub specialisation shown either for officers on the Flag List or the Captains’ List in either volume, or the List of Retired Officers, or indeed on the latter on the Commanders’ List, although I am confident that there must have been some still around, as evidenced by dipping into a 1945 Navy List which showed quite a few (F)s, coupled with the explanation at the end of my sixth paragraph.

Moving quickly on, I was therefore quite surprised not to find a single solitary (F) in the Commanders’ and Lieutenant Commanders’ List for General List (Full Career) officers and only one Commander (F) and one Lieutenant Commander (F) on the Supplementary List (Extended Medium Career Commissions), M J Holmes and R Warren respectively.

That’s enough about the general, now to the particular, and I’m glad to say that I recalled one very interesting (F), namely Commander David “Shorty” Hamilton, whose death at the age of 91 was in fact recorded by Lordflasheart in 2017 at https://www.pprune.org/where-they-now/601945-commander-f-dmah-shorty-hamilton-rn-rip.html and whose flying career ranged from Tiger Moths to command of of 892 and 899 Naval Air Squadrons flying Sea Vixens, after service in 700Y Naval Air Squadron, the first Sea Vixen Trials Unit.

I would like to think that the three links shown below, which contain several references to his (F) qualification, will prove worth reading by those interested. The first is his own account of his naval career, including war service in HMS WHELP with the Duke of Edinburgh, then participating in the post war sinking and destruction of the 221 surrendered U-boats whilst serving in HMS OFFA and "lording" it over the Kriegsmarine immediately post war, before going on to solo after six hours dual in Tiger Moths at RAF Yatesbury, followed by Harvard time at RAF Ouston (a thread on which coincidentally was resuscitated in this forum as recently as 3 February). His views on the bombing of Germany, including Dresden, are also stated.

The first link is also notable for containing the entry, "1948 - After Aerodrome Dummy Deck Landings [ADDLS] at Milltown carried out first deck landings on board HMS Implacable in the English Channel on 22 June. After leaving OFS became member of the first pilot cross qualification [F] course and graduated as Observer [Navigator]. The Admiralty had decided that future COs should have dual qualifications."

Commander Shorty Hamilton RN, Fleet Air Arm (http://www.naval-history.net/WXMemoirHamilton.htm) -

https://www.seavixen.org/aircrew-careers/commander-shorty-hamilton

https://navalairhistory.com/2017/11/12/in-memoriam-sub-lt-david-mitchell-rnvr-and-cdr-david-hamilton-rn/

As a personal footnote, and a nice surprise when I saw it, I had the pleasure of sailing off Sydney many times in the yacht NIRIMBA whose picture is shown at the end of the first link.

Jack