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slate100
8th Feb 2019, 05:04
I couldn't find any reference in the FCOM/FCTM unless I missed it, but where does Airbus want our feet to be for Takeoff and Taxiing.

Fully on the pedals or heals on the floor?

QuarterInchSocket
8th Feb 2019, 05:43
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, you put your left foot in.....

joke aside, you put them where directional and braking control is assured, common sense (I’m not a pilot)

iggy
8th Feb 2019, 08:39
Not in the FCOM, but keep in mind that under certain situations the pilot is required to maintain directional control through differential braking. This is best achieved by placing the full feet on the pedal and using the heels for directional control and the tips for braking.

STFMD80
8th Feb 2019, 09:33
Hi,

the FCTM PR-NP-SOP-70 says that one should be able to immediately and simultaneously apply full rudder deflection and full braking.
The way to achieve this is delegated to the individual operators as each have got their own view of this old time argument.
Nevertheless Airbus at one of its training conferences mentioned that their suggestion is for both pilots to keep feet up. The design of the pedals is such to have your whole feet resting on it.
try slide up you feet on that rubber material when landing on 38kt crosswind, or have an engine failure at low speed (below 72kt) on a 30m wide runway, good luck!

Goldenrivett
8th Feb 2019, 10:22
This is best achieved by placing the full feet on the pedal and using the heels for directional control and the tips for braking.
Oooo!
For take off, my heels were always on the floor to prevent inadvertent braking like these chaps.
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/world/europe/pilot-error-found-in-crash-that-killed-russian-hockey-players.html
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5423046f40f0b61342000b77/Gulfstream_G150__D-CKDM_12-11.pdf (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/world/europe/pilot-error-found-in-crash-that-killed-russian-hockey-players.html)

iggy
8th Feb 2019, 10:28
If you need to reject and you have loss of braking on wet/slippery runway you will need to modulate braking pressure with the tips while maintaining directional control with the heels.

As I said, nothing written in the manuals, just my personal view.

Skornogr4phy
8th Feb 2019, 10:49
Airbus doesn't specify as far as I'm aware, but talking to some of our training captain, I shifted from heels on the floor to heels up. The risk of brake application is minimal during TO if you keep your toes up, but needing to apply differential braking at max crosswind could be difficult otherwise. The time taken to shift heels up to the pedals in a heavy crosswind might be just the thing that puts you off the side of the runway. Same with max manual braking if needed.

sonicbum
8th Feb 2019, 12:35
Check the Airbus CBT, You will see in lesson 1 the correct seating position including the proper positioning of feet on rudder, that is fully on the rudder, no heels on the floor.

Nightstop
8th Feb 2019, 15:46
I’m a heels on the floor man for take-off. It’s much easier to accurately control the yaw with rudder input after an engine failure above V1 if your heels are on the floor imho.

Flaps0
8th Feb 2019, 19:45
Iím a heels on the floor man for take-off. Itís much easier to accurately control the yaw with rudder input after an engine failure above V1 if your heels are on the floor imho.

I concur. In the event of engine failure below 72kts, it only takes a fraction of a second to shift the feet up on the brakes.

simufly
8th Feb 2019, 21:12
I concur. In the event of engine failure below 72kts, it only takes a fraction of a second to shift the feet up on the brakes.
Not sure what 72kts has to do with it, is it 320thing? I have heard 80 kts on small jets and 100kts on bigger ones? We seem to have forgotten suprise and startle?

Flaps0
8th Feb 2019, 21:30
Not sure what 72kts has to do with it, is it 320thing? I have heard 80 kts on small jets and 100kts on bigger ones? We seem to have forgotten suprise and startle?

A320 thing. Autobrake wonít activate if speed never exceeds 72 kts.

Valmont
8th Feb 2019, 22:34
I did a Technical Request to Airbus a few months back regarding this.

XXX: My name,
ZZZ, ICAO Code of the airline I did the request for.

Dear XXX,

The following is in response to your message that is outlined below:

QUESTION:
We would like clarification on the recommended feet position during taxi, takeoff and landing.
FCTM PR-NP-SOP 70 P1/2 gives us informations but the wording is not very clear. Should the feet be on the rudder pedals or heels to the ground ?

ANSWER:
Airbus would like to inform ZZZ that as mentioned in ZZZ A320 Family FCTM PR-NP-SOP-70, the feet position has to ensure full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even in differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay.
As long as the above combined actions are met. Airbus does not have any specific recommendation on the where feet position should be.
We hope this satisfactorily responds to your request and we remain available for any additional information and assistance.

Best regards,

compressor stall
8th Feb 2019, 23:19
Yes, I spoke in person to a couple of Airbus guys (and not sales reps/TREs...) about this at a conference and they confirmed that Airbus will never be so prescriptive to tell people where to put their feet, but the pilot must be able to apply full braking immediately without any delay. They unofficially verbally confirmed to me that the only way to achieve this is to have your toes on the brakes.

AerocatS2A
8th Feb 2019, 23:39
I used to be heels on the floor. Having started flying an Airbus, I have changed my ways. The issue I find is that the pedals are grippy and I don’t find it easy sliding my feet up, particularly if I’m already holding some rudder in. I don’t particularly like it as it means I have to use my whole leg to move the rudder instead of just my toes which is what I was used to.

dream747
9th Feb 2019, 01:23
For those of you who have your heels on the floor for landing in strong crosswinds, how do you move your feet up when you want to transit to manual braking without releasing the pressure on the rudder pedal for a moment?

flown-it
9th Feb 2019, 01:28
Less than 72 kts is not a killer speed so you have time to move your feet to apply brakes. Auto brakes and heels on the floor for me. I'm flown Airbus, BAe, Boeing , Gulfstream and McDonald Douglas with and without auto brake and regardless I'm always heels on floor. And I've rejected close to V1.

stilton
9th Feb 2019, 05:46
For those of you who have your heels on the floor for landing in strong crosswinds, how do you move your feet up when you want to transit to manual braking without releasing the pressure on the rudder pedal for a moment?



You shouldnít have to release any, just carefully and smoothly slide your feet up the rudder pedals while keeping the same input until you can operate the brakes


Otherwise itís heels on the floor, better for control and avoiding inadvertent brake application

hikoushi
9th Feb 2019, 07:44
You shouldn’t have to release any, just carefully and smoothly slide your feet up the rudder pedals while keeping the same input until you can operate the brakes


Otherwise it’s heels on the floor, better for control and avoiding inadvertent brake application



Absolutely. Coming from Boeings and having flown for many years into a home airport where strong crosswinds are the standard, I agree that as long as a person has developed the exact technique you described, it works great. I use it. Maintain the exact position and pressure on the pedals for the crosswind correction, while sliding the feet the pedals to initiate even braking. The tricky bit with Airbus rudder pedals is that they are LONG. If your foot is not ALL the way to the top (your toe will hit the stop on the top of the pedal), your braking will be uneven. Folks coming from other types often don't realize they are not using the entire pedal, and that full brake deflection is not possible unless you do so. If you regularly land the Airbus and wonder why you always have to hold the pedals one side or another even in calm wind, or have one side brakes that always heat up more, check you foot position and feel for the stop all the way up on the top of the pedals next time. For the same reason, the angle of the pedal is somewhat different than other types, so it is difficult to inadvertently brake even if your heels are up.

In other words both techniques work. The key point is to use whichever one gives you best control at all times, which is more than likely dependent on past experience and the shape of your foot and flexibility in your ankles! The other key is to again, make sure that both feet are all the way up to the top of the pedals during manual braking.

vilas
9th Feb 2019, 09:43
Since speed for taxiing is slow it's not an issue, keep it up or down. For takeoff there is no recommended position. But in adverse conditions sliding the feet up for differential braking with full rudder in EFATO low speed reject can be a handful. In B747 classic rudders were not connected to nose wheel making very difficult. I always kept my feet on top and was very easy to slam the brake and rudder. In A320 with A/BRAKE and some control of nosewheel through rudders should not be difficult. As stated by Airbus as long as the objective to use full rudder deflection and differential braking can be achieved use any position you are comfortable with.

Capt Fathom
9th Feb 2019, 10:51
Feet position? Somewhere on or above the dashboard works for me! :E

Right Way Up
9th Feb 2019, 10:52
Feet position? Somewhere on or above the dashboard works for me! images/smilies/evil.gif

Otherwise known as the low-cost foot warmer ;)

Meikleour
9th Feb 2019, 11:13
vilas: you are coming across as far too sensible and reasonable - that never goes down well on PPRUNE!!!

Check Airman
9th Feb 2019, 15:56
I'm comfortable with my feet up or down. One point that hasn't been made is inadvertent autobrake disconnection. With feet on thd floor, you're less likely to accidentally disconnect autobrakes, which is particularly undesirable in the RTO case. If I'm not mistaken, a few years ago, Boeing or Airbus put out some info stating that autobrakes are far superior in that case.

sonicbum
9th Feb 2019, 16:57
I am a strong supporter of the "feet up" position, as this is the way we were taught back in 1994 during the A320 type rating. Since then I kept teaching it this way to my trainees and that was also the policy in the airline where I have spent the most of my career. I believe that the "feet up" position has only pros and only 1 single con that I have had the chance to experience a few times on some trainees, that it is the possibility of applying brake pressure during take offs with strong cross winds on the upwind brake, especially if the trainee pumps the rudder. That happened maybe 3 or 4 times in 25 years so I am happy with that statistics compared to all the benefits of the feet up position.

vilas
9th Feb 2019, 17:23
One point that hasn't been made is inadvertent autobrake disconnection. With feet on thd floor, you're less likely to accidentally disconnect autobrakes, That's true. With feet up one needs to use rudder with pressure on heels and keeping the ball of the feet lightly on the pedals. In case of AB malfunction it's very easy to slam both brakes without any delay. Also true that in case of reject AB provides instant symetrical braking.

stilton
11th Feb 2019, 08:54
Absolutely. Coming from Boeings and having flown for many years into a home airport where strong crosswinds are the standard, I agree that as long as a person has developed the exact technique you described, it works great. I use it. Maintain the exact position and pressure on the pedals for the crosswind correction, while sliding the feet the pedals to initiate even braking. The tricky bit with Airbus rudder pedals is that they are LONG. If your foot is not ALL the way to the top (your toe will hit the stop on the top of the pedal), your braking will be uneven. Folks coming from other types often don't realize they are not using the entire pedal, and that full brake deflection is not possible unless you do so. If you regularly land the Airbus and wonder why you always have to hold the pedals one side or another even in calm wind, or have one side brakes that always heat up more, check you foot position and feel for the stop all the way up on the top of the pedals next time. For the same reason, the angle of the pedal is somewhat different than other types, so it is difficult to inadvertently brake even if your heels are up.

In other words both techniques work. The key point is to use whichever one gives you best control at all times, which is more than likely dependent on past experience and the shape of your foot and flexibility in your ankles! The other key is to again, make sure that both feet are all the way up to the top of the pedals during manual braking.



Very interesting and instructive HK, Iíve not flown an Airbus, the pedal design on the Boeingís and Douglas aircraft Iíve flown are different than what you describe


Iíve never done anything other than Ďheels on the floorí except when braking and, apart from the risk of inadvertent braking Iím sure I would find rudder and nose wheel control considerably trickier and clumsy using my heels



It does sound like the Airbus design may lend itself more to that technique

Airbus_a321
11th Feb 2019, 12:50
Feet DOWN for T/O, feet UP for LDG.

Airbus pedals are not like on e.g MD80, where you can stay on heels and just slide up easily when you need to brake. Almost impossible on Airbus.
Especially in x-wind ldgs, when you need rudder input and same time need/want to disengage Autobrake, you will be very happy having placed your feet on the upper stop of the pedals. The rubber cover prevent sliding up and you have to lift you feet to go on brakes, so reducing rudder input all that in x-wind. Doesnt feel good.

For T/O on heels prevents inadvertently disconnecting Autobrake in case of T/O abort above 72 kts. Below 72 not really a problem.
Dont know on Boeing a/c.

hans brinker
11th Feb 2019, 17:41
In the SIM it is much easier to do the aborted high speed T/O and engine failure above V1 with the heels on the ground. Off course, in the SIM I haven't had the auto-brakes fail either....
I think, based on the way the pedals are designed that it is Airbus unspoken preference to keep the heels of the ground, just IMHO.

Farmer106
11th Feb 2019, 17:43
It takes quite a lot of pressure to disconnect the autobrake in case of an abort (A320) . And even then I can still brake manually.
So for me it is feet up. Always.
Imagine an takeoff abort with crosswind. And then the autobrake does not kick in, and your heels are on the floor. I guess it will take several seconds to get your feet into position for braking.

pineteam
12th Feb 2019, 05:22
Airbus test pilots do recommend feet up on the pedals for take off and landing. Feet down are acceptable tho but not their first choice. They speak about it in one of the WIN videos by Airbus. The CBT also illustrates feet up on the pedals. I used to put my heels on the floor for take off and up for landing as FO but now it’s always feet up and I’m loving it. I like having the same feet position for both take off and landing. I feel much more in control also.

Check Airman
12th Feb 2019, 08:01
Does anyone know if the certification for RTO was done using autobrakes or manual braking? That may shed some light on this recurring question.

sonicbum
12th Feb 2019, 08:53
Does anyone know if the certification for RTO was done using autobrakes or manual braking? That may shed some light on this recurring question.

Manual braking with brakes worn to their overhaul limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irTizOVM-3U

Cak
12th Feb 2019, 16:02
Airbus test pilots do recommend feet up on the pedals for take off and landing. Feet down are acceptable tho but not their first choice. They speak about it in one of the WIN videos by Airbus. The CBT also illustrates feet up on the pedals. I used to put my heels on the floor for take off and up for landing as FO but now itís always feet up and Iím loving it. I like having the same feet position for both take off and landing. I feel much more in control also.
Well, actually in one of those video, they say that they did survey among their test pilots and it's 50/50%
At the end, they state that Airbus has no recommendation on that one

pineteam
13th Feb 2019, 05:04
Hello Cak,

That’s true. I saw that video. But I’m still on the side that feet up is safer. In a sim, if the instructor gives you a sudden power loss at low speed with Toga thrust on a narrow runway, there is a big chance you will end up in the grass with heels down as the autobrake will not kick in. With your feet up, you can control the aircraft and brake at the same time with no delay. But like you say, I don’t bother anyone if they have their feet up or down as Airbus is not 100% clear on that aspect.

Check Airman
13th Feb 2019, 08:57
At the end of the day, is it really necessary for Airbus to get into that level of detail? Do what you think is appropriate. Are there discussions on how to hold the sidestick as well?

sabenaboy
13th Feb 2019, 10:49
In the A320 series, your feet should be fully on the pedals for T.O. and landing. I feel very strongly about that!

'My' FCTM says: 'The flight crew must have their feet in a position so that full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay.
The only way that can be achieved in tha A320 is by having your feet ON the pedal.
If you ever need to abort t.o. after a severe engine failure at very low speed or at any speed with a 38 kts crosswind, you will need to use full rudder + differential braking immediately if you want to keep it on the runway!
Autobrakes will not help you to keep in on the runway! Worse: you WILL be giving hard and full rudder instinctively and from that moment on it becomes very difficult to move that foot up to brake!!

Keeping your heels on the floor will work nicely as long as all goes well, but that's not what we're getting paid for. We earn our salary by being ready for the unexpected when the sh*t hits the fan!

Airbus would like to inform ZZZ that as mentioned in ZZZ A320 Family FCTM PR-NP-SOP-70, the feet position has to ensure full rudder deflection combined with full braking, even in differential, can be applied instinctively and without delay.
As long as the above combined actions are met. Airbus does not have any specific recommendation on the where feet position should be. When the day comes that an A320 leaves the rwy after a half second delay in differential braking by a pilot having his feet on the floor, Airbus will say: 'Hey, we told you to be ready. Why weren't you?

The A320 pedals are designed to have your feet ON the pedals. I know that's not the case in most other airliners. Pilots transitioning from other types should be instructed to have their feet on the pedals. It might take some time to get used to, but after a while it feels very normal, comfortable and not hard at all.

vilas
13th Feb 2019, 11:16
If you ever need to abort t.o. after a severe engine failure at very low speed or at any speed with a 38 kts crosswind, you will need to use full rudder + differential braking immediately if you want to keep it on the runway!
Autobrakes will not help you to keep in on the runway! Worse: you WILL be giving hard and full rudder instinctively and from that moment on it becomes very difficult to move that foot up to brake!! At low speed Auto brake wouldn't work to start with and stopping is not critical but keeping it on the RW is. There was a RW excursion because differential braking could not be applied although due to improper seat adjustment the toes could not reach the deflected rudder top. But even with proper seating it's difficult to slide the foot up after full rudder application. It is very easy to do that if you place the feet on top.

sonicbum
13th Feb 2019, 11:37
Are there discussions on how to hold the sidestick as well?

Yes there are, and that is in the CBT as well. in the past 25 years I have seen people coming up with so many funny theories on how to place the hand on the sidestick that I could't believe it.

Check Airman
13th Feb 2019, 13:22
Yes there are, and that is in the CBT as well. in the past 25 years I have seen people coming up with so many funny theories on how to place the hand on the sidestick that I could't believe it.

My initial question was rhetorical, but it's clear that some people are overly concerned with minute details. Not quite 25 years, but I've observed a range of grips. As long as the plane's doing what it's supposed to, I'd like to hope that nobody would tell another crewmember how to hold the sidestick.

sonicbum
13th Feb 2019, 13:47
My initial question was rhetorical, but it's clear that some people are overly concerned with minute details. Not quite 25 years, but I've observed a range of grips. As long as the plane's doing what it's supposed to, I'd like to hope that nobody would tell another crewmember how to hold the sidestick.

I am afraid I have to disagree on that one. I am not sure You would be too happy to see Your low hours FO handling the sidestick with two fingers close to the ground as "somebody told me it is better this way to avoid over control".

CaptainMongo
13th Feb 2019, 17:34
I am afraid I have to disagree on that one. I am not sure You would be too happy to see Your low hours FO handling the sidestick with two fingers close to the ground as "somebody told me it is better this way to avoid over control".

How do you suggest a pilot grip the side stick? Does the appropriate grip change during the course of the flight? Ie TO, cruise, approach or landing?

(rereading this, it sounds snarky, that is not my intention)

Goldenrivett
13th Feb 2019, 18:14
Does the appropriate grip change during the course of the flight?
You may well ask. There are even study papers on the subject.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268506309_The_way_pilots_handle_their_control_stick_-_effects_shown_in_a_flight_simulator_study

Cak
13th Feb 2019, 20:11
The A320 pedals are designed to have your feet ON the pedals. I know that's not the case in most other airliners. Pilots transitioning from other types should be instructed to have their feet on the pedals. It might take some time to get used to, but after a while it feels very normal, comfortable and not hard at all.

I mostly agree with your point of view, but pedals are not designed only for feet up. In that case we would have carpet below the pedals like in the rest of the cockpit and not metal strips to reduce friction between heels and floor :)

Personaly, I use mostly heels on the floor as I find it to be more precise with better control. Had 2 rejected take-offs on quite narrow RWY, 2 times complete brakes stucked on one side for landing and numerous landings with max crrosswind with extremly violent gusts and full rudder deflection for landing (DBV airport is very famous for that) and never had any problem sliding my feet instantly up

Vessbot
14th Feb 2019, 02:20
Oh man, where things have gone since I last looked at this. Reminds me of a memo we got about pilots twisting the autopilot knobs too fast and causing premature wear and malfunction -- turns out there's a recommended max twist rate of 3 revs per second or something like that. The Fleet Manager concluded the memo with some self-conscious humor about the banality of the topic, with the note "and be on the lookout for our next update, 'How to Push Buttons'."

sabenaboy
29th Mar 2019, 13:50
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/612657-correct-position-feet-rudder-pedals-landing-airbus-2.html#post10433306
It's clear now: Airbus -of course (sic)- recommends feet up on the pedals for T.O. and LANDING. Look at the link above for my reply in an other thread about the same subject.!
I consider the discussion closed! :} :O