When did airway colour naming end?

[Timothy]

When did Amber become Alpha and Red Romeo?

ISTR mid eighties, but others are saying mid nineties.

[DaveReidUK]

I'm pretty sure is was the eighties rather than the nineties, but I can't be any more precise than that.

[chevvron]

Early 90s, then all the desgnations changed again Europe wide in about 2002 eg Green 1 became Golf 1 then Lima 9.(You figure it out, I can't)

[DaveReidUK]

Some interesting history on Green One here. The Green One (http://pdboyinsuffolk.********.com/2012/11/the-green-one.html)

It would seem that even by the mid-1950s, airways had started to be identified on charts just by the first letter of their colour (so "G1" rather than "Green One"), and presumably in the same way on flightplans, etc, though I certainly recall airways clearance readbacks, for example, quoting "White Nine, Amber One", etc in the 60s.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x428/uk_aatc_system_wales_dec_1953_from_ap3192e_ae07079ffdcbfd2af 026b4d62ceb87773977f7fd.jpg



So the change from "Green" to "Golf", when it came, wouldn't have resulted in any change to airways charts, though of course it would have been apparent on R/T.

[treadigraph]

I was labouring under the misconception that it was was still Green 1, etc! :)

What does ASR stand for? Chatham ASR, Lundy ASR, etc... I naturally think Air Sea Rescue, but somehow Barnsley seems a bit strange... Radar?

[ex82watcher]

Tread - it's Altimeter Setting Region.

[Pontius Navigator]

Interesting chart. I remember Green 2 as the Blue Way - ,Blue 1 from Otringham. Also Amber 25 I'd missing.

[dook]

David Gunson wouldn't be impressed.

[Brian 48nav]

PN

Bunny Gunson, ex-Coastal Siggie then CAA ATCO at Brum', well known for his after dinner talks about ATC - very funny but with a lot of poetic licence as I think he only ever worked as an ATCO at Brum'. I've just seen you've deleted your post PN - to make sense of this post PN put ???? after Dook's reference to David Gunson.

[dook]

ATC after dinner speaker.

"what goes up might come down".

Very famous speech.

Part of it was how to give instructions to pilots.

This is not accurate but you'll get the idea:

"You go up the green one, then the red one and then the blue one".

I remember the last line:

"And does anyone know why the toilets in Concorde have frosted glass ?

[treadigraph]

Tread - it's Altimeter Setting Region.

Ah! Obvious! Thanks!

[chevvron]

Tread - it's Altimeter Setting Region.
I wonder what the Transition Altitude was in those days ('50s).

[kcockayne]

Wasn't it 3000 feet ?

[eckhard]

It still is, outside TMAs.

Thanks to Dave Reid’s chart, I now understand why they chose such amusing locations for the names of the ASRs; e.g. “Chatham” and “Barnsley”. They seem to be near the geographic centre of the region.

[chevvron]

Wasn't it 3000 feet ?
I don't know; the inclusion of ASRs on the IFR chart might indicate that the TA is very high or even that at the time of printing, ISA hadn't even been adopted.

[Pontius Navigator]

No, the TA was definitely 3,000 feet.

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't know; the inclusion of ASRs on the IFR chart might indicate that the TA is very high or even that at the time of printing, ISA hadn't even been adopted.
In the Varsity nav trainer the rear crew altimeter had the ability to set SPS (1013.2) but not QFE or QNH. Before take-off we would zero the altimeter giving us an effective QFE. Passing transition we would reset the altimeter by adjusting the setting until a white line was aligned which gave us 1013.

On descent to base we had no direct means of resetting to QFE, nor were we taught to calculate the difference between SPS and QFE and adjust the altimeter by the appropriate number of feet.

Not quite sure why but In those days, 1962, our navigation ceased at the entry point some 15 miles from base when we were picked up for an ACR7 approach. Our base had no nav aids except the pundit.

[kcockayne]

I wouldn’t make a definitive statement that it was 3000 ft., but when I took up air band listening in the early ‘60s the lowest level allocated on Red 1 south of IBY was regularly FL40.

[NRU74]

[QUOTE Not quite sure why but In those days, 1962, our navigation ceased at the entry point some 15 miles from base when we were picked up for an AR7 approach. Our base had no nav aids except the pundit.[/QUOTE]

PN Remind me (did you mean ACR7) was that azimuth only ?
I think one of the surviving ACR7s was at Topcliffe (until the mid to late 60’s).

[Pontius Navigator]

NRU74, indeed you are correct (57 years ago) :)

[Pontius Navigator]

I wouldn’t make a definitive statement that it was 3000 ft., but when I took up air band listening in the early ‘60s the lowest level allocated on Red 1 south of IBY was regularly FL40.

kcockayne, the lowest even flight level is 40. I can't recall whether the quadrantal system applied within the airway but either was 40 was the lowest westbound flight level.

Transitioning from QNH SPS and a flight level depended on the transition layer. FL30 could be above or below TA. If it was below TA the next available FL would be 35 or higher depending on magnetic course being flown.

Then the allocated FL also had to allow for safety altitude. This would be the MSFL or minimum safe flight level.

[ex82watcher]

Are Purple Airways still created for short periods,or did that concept disappear when the Royal Flight was disbanded ?

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex82, apparently no longer used but Royal Low Level Corridors are used for helos.

[ZOOKER]

The earliest AERADs I have are from 1970/'71, and the TA, outside CAS was generally 3000'.

In the EGCC TMA, in 1979, TA was 4000', allegedly because of the proximity of 2 of The U.K.'s highest land-based obtsructions. Winter Hill and Holme Moss were both close to 2,500' AMSL.

[Pontius Navigator]

Zooker, I think the Lyneham and Honington zones were also much higher but I can't remember specifics. Both were larger zones because of the congested military airspace. In the case of Lyneham it pushed the lowest airway FL up. East of Lyneham the lowest height was 5,000 and to the West 7,000 with the Brecons causing it to be higher still.

[ZOOKER]

Thanks Pontius,

I'll have to dig them out and check. I'm always on the lookout for aeronautical/airways charts dated between 1945 to 1971. If you have any, or know someone who has, please get in touch.

It's for my own personal interest, but also for GATCO's atchistory project.

[Pontius Navigator]

Do an image search for the chart at #4. You will find a blog up That may interest you.

[ve3id]

ATC after dinner speaker.

"what goes up might come down".

Very famous speech.

Part of it was how to give instructions to pilots.

This is not accurate but you'll get the idea:

"You go up the green one, then the red one and then the blue one".

I remember the last line:

"And does anyone know why the toilets in Concorde have frosted glass ?

"Bugger! I thought I had reached the age of retirement without missing anything. Now I will never be able to fly the Concorde to find out :-)

[ex82watcher]

PN,thanks for that.- I'd forgotten about the LLCs.

[kcockayne]

Appreciative of your reply. I was just reflecting that the use of FL40 was indicative of the use of 3000 ft. as the transition altitude. Obviously, the lowest actual available FL on the airway would depend on the regional QNH.

[ex82watcher]

Flight levels on Airways were not allocated according to the Quadrantal Rule ie odd 500' levels were not used.Generally,even levels were used for Westbound flights,odd levels used for Eastbounds.There would ALWAYS be 1000' between aircraft when separation was provided by height alone.However,above FL 290,the minimum vertical separation was 2000',thus the first available level above this would have been FL310.Bear in mind however,that airways were etablished only in the lower airspace(FIR),up to FL245.Above that lay the UIR (Upper Information Region),which was all controlled Airspace (Special Rules Airspace to be exact),and there were not Airways,but Upper Air Routes.Things have now changed of course,with the advent of RMVSAs (Reduced Minimum Vertical Separation Areas),and 1000' separation is pretty much standard at all levels.

[chevvron]

Are Purple Airways still created for short periods,or did that concept disappear when the Royal Flight was disbanded ?
The 'Royal Flight' was not disbanded, it wae elevated to squadron status and still exists in the form of No 32 (The Royal) Sqdn RAF.
Purple airspace was dispensed with however and if and when extra airspace for Royal Flights is required, AUS will notify the creation of temporary controlled airspace in the form of a Class D CTR around departure and destination airfields plus temporary Class A airways joining the Class D CTRs to the national airways system.

[chevvron]

Ex82, apparently no longer used but Royal Low Level Corridors are used for helos.
RLLCs are not regulated airspace but are merely advisory for the benefit of other trffic.

[chevvron]

Not quite sure why but In those days, 1962, our navigation ceased at the entry point some 15 miles from base when we were picked up for an AR7 approach. Our base had no nav aids except the pundit.

PN Remind me (did you mean ACR7) was that azimuth only ?
I think one of the surviving ACR7s was at Topcliffe (until the mid to late 60’s).





ACR7 or Decca 424 as it was known in the civilian world was a 3 cm pencil beam radar suitable for providing half mile SRAs; it had no glidepath element therefore its decision height sorry 'procedure minima' was higher than that used for PARs.
I saw the ACR7 at Topcliffe in 1971 when I was there for summer camp, there was another at Lindholme until late 1972 and as far as I'm aware, only one survives at Lasham airfield however this has got serviceability problems due lack of spares. Talkdownman of these pages is one of the controllers at Lasham.

[Pontius Navigator]

The 'Royal Flight' was not disbanded, it still exists in the form of No 32 (The Royal) Sqdn RAF.
Disbanded in the sense that that particular name ceased. What happened to the Captain of the Queen's Flight? Does the sqn cdr hold that historic title of has it lapsed?

[binbrook]

Slight thread drift, but when did TA come down to 3000ft? AFIR in the 50s it was up at something like 10000ft. Below that we were all on QNH - no QFE even in the circuit - which meant mental arithmetic for BABS/ACR7 approaches.

[chevvron]

Slight thread drift, but when did TA come down to 3000ft? AFIR in the 50s it was up at something like 10000ft. Below that we were all on QNH - no QFE even in the circuit - which meant mental arithmetic for BABS/ACR7 approaches.
Thank you Binbrook; that's what I suspected and why I queried the depiction of ASRs on the IFR airways chart; there would be no need to depict the ASRs if the TA was 3,000ft as everybody would be using ISA.

[binbrook]

A further thought - AFAIR the upper limit of UK airways in the 50s was something like 12000ft, not that we had the nav kit to use them. I have a vague memory that we could go through airways at X000+500ft, but maybe that was only in emergency. Anyone out there got an old RAFAC?

[ShyTorque]

Ex82, apparently no longer used but Royal Low Level Corridors are used for helos.

If that's correct, it's a pointless exercise because as from a few months ago they are no longer published.

AIC Y009/2018, which was the relevant one, has been cancelled.

[Pontius Navigator]

Chevron, we used the Regional pressure setting in the event of flight below transition away from an airfield so that everyone would be measuring altitude on a common datum.

It was also to calculate the MSFL.

[chevvron]

Disbanded in the sense that that particular name ceased. What happened to the Captain of the Queen's Flight? Does the sqn cdr hold that historic title of has it lapsed?
Apart from the '146s, I'm not sure what aircraft they have nowadays as they disposed of all the '125s about 6 years ago. They might still have a helicopter to transport government ministers but Royal Heli Flights are handled by the civilian operated the Royal Helicopter Flght based at RAF Odiham and in the case of multiple bookings, they sub contract to another approved helicopter operator.

[Pontius Navigator]

. I have a vague memory that we could go through airways at X000+500ft, but maybe that was only in emergency. Anyone out there got an old RAFAC?
I am pretty sure that was correct for a VFR transit. We used to request a procedural crossing. We used to request the airways crossing some 10 minutes in advance (30 miles in our case) and rarely we had to change level too. If we arrived early we had to orbit and if late reapply.

[chevvron]

I am pretty sure that was correct for a VFR transit. We used to request a procedural crossing. We used to request the airways crossing some 10 minutes in advance (30 miles in our case) and rarely we had to change level too. If we arrived early we had to orbit and if late reapply.
Unless it was a Purple Airway.https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/mpangel.gif

[India Four Two]

PN,

In June 1968, I was in a Varsity that was ferrying a group of us from Binbrook back to Shawbury after we had delivered four Chipmunks for UBAS Summer Camp. We did an airways crossing en route. It sticks in my mind because of a minor disagreement about the time we entered the airway, between the radar controller (Midland Radar?) and the Varsity's navigator, who was using Gee for position fixing. I knew about Gee, but had no idea it was still being used.

[Pontius Navigator]

I42, Gee in the Varsity was a rapid fixing aid! Having installed the correct box for the chain in use you would fiddle around with the oscilloscope and using a n electronic upscale measure the time differencees .Having logged the readings you plotted them on the hyperbolic chart.

Properly you should now log the position on the hyperbolic chart before transferring the position to the plotting chart. Having now established your position, and considering previous positions you could work out the groundspeed. Using that and the position you could work out the ETA.

Quite simple really. You could also use the AP I to calculate a wind and then groundspeed.

[NRU74]

Pontius,
You were kind enough to respond to my ACR7 query.
I recall we had Gee with the so called Universal Indicator (or some similar terminology) on the Valiant - I think it was Gee2ish but it was a long time ago -
Any info/recall ?
(Guilty of thread drift)

[Pontius Navigator]

NRU, it depends.

The later model was the Mk3. It was easier to use. You rotated the knobs, can't remember much detail as I only used it a couple of times on the Meteor and the readings were presented as numbers.

The Vulcan also had the Mk3. It was SOP to switch it off after the climb and back on at TOP of descent before doing a Gee homing to overhead. In 1964 Gee was replaced with TACAN.

It is likely that the Valiant had Mk3. The control panel was roughly 6inch by 2inch compared with the laboratory size box of Gee 2.

I do know that the Valiant tankers had TACAN in 1964 as it was part of the AAR RV procedures.

[GLIDER 90]

What years was the Lichfield & Scunthorpe RVC's set up?

Also did military traffic departing Coningsby, Scampton,& Waddington have to fly through the Scunthorpe RVC, if for example they wanted to fly to Ottringham?

[Pontius Navigator]

Glider, we would climb above 245 and had no need for the RVC. The RVCs were for traffic seeking a medium level transit rather than climbing into upper air. The Vulcans operated latterly from Cottesmore. Otttingham is a beacon on the airway so the Scunthorpe RVC didn't go there.I

Typically for the high level phases we invariably flew above 410 up to 490. Trying to thread a bombing run through civil traffic in the 30s was a nightmare.BBC

On recovery, under radar control we would be guided through the airways.

[ex82watcher]

Glider90 & PN, possibly relevant to your posts - I don't know when it started,but certainly in 1982 onwards Airway Blue 1 (latterly Bravo 1 as previously discussed ), was not available to GAT from 5NM East of OTR to 5 West of DOGGER (later,DOGGA ) at FL140-FL160,as these levels were reserved for crossing military aircraft not under radar control .

[spekesoftly]

I have a vague memory that we could go through airways at X000+500ft, but maybe that was only in emergency. Anyone out there got an old RAFAC?


I have an old RAF En Route Supplement (BINA) from 1983 and it confirms that procedure for use in an emergency when neither a radar nor procedural crossing could be obtained. The circumstances had to be reported to the Parent ATCC after landing.

[ex82watcher]

Having just watched the 'In on the beam' film on the above 'Historic Videos' thread,it seems that I was wrong to assert that odd 500' levels were not used on Airways,as all the A/C in that seemed to be flying at such levels.This seems to make no sense that military A/C in an emergency were supposed to cross Airways at x000+500'.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ex82, not entirely. I am not sure but take Amber 1. Levels in use would be Odds Plus south and Evens Plus north. A VFR or IFR crosser would be at plus 500. On the Blue way it would be 000.

[Pom Pax]

PN
Gee in the Varsity was a rapid fixing aid!
Gee 2 about a 6 minute exercise except when pretend flying a "supersonic" Canberra in the D.R. sweat box where eventually your pencil was outpaced. However this seasoned one such that a 3 minute cycle was easy with Gee 3. In fact once I managed a 2 minute cycle for the length of England.

binbrook
​​​​​​​ AFAIR the upper limit of UK airways in the 50s was something like 12000ft, not that we had the nav kit to use them.
I thought it was 10 thou but I'll accept 12 but early '58 it became 15000ft'. With this came FLs and all the other gubbins upwards and above FL 290.

[binbrook]

Pom Pax - that sounds right. I was on my first squadron. 6 minute fixing was the norm with Gee on Canberras but occasionally it went to 3 - getting near the tracker for GH perhaps? Limited aids was more leisurely and the whole squadron on one Malta detachment went pressure-pattern on a single heading from Dover to the corner of Sicily. All the navs had to do was plot our track.

[Pontius Navigator]

Three minute fixing, and no transferring from Gee to plotting chart, and no DRing was easy in the Meteor.

I think the procedures on the Varsity were designed to be awkward: various Gee Chain charts, a consol chart, the ERC, topo, and everything plotted on the 1:1m plotting chart. Not forgetting that every radio beacon etc that you planned to use had to be plotted too.

[Pom Pax]

the ERC ................. luxury!!!!!
Had to put that lot on the 1:1m , admittedly from a template.

[Pontius Navigator]

PP, I didn't say we could write on the ERC. We had to manually plot the lot, airways and all. Probably because the charts predated the airways 😀

Remember the Topos all had to be drawn up too. Luxury was covering the maps in fablon. We soon discovered that sticking the fablon on was not easy. A few bob and the flt planning clerks would draw up the topo and cover with fablon.

[Discorde]

Another diagram of UK CAS in the 1950s:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1632x1248/cas_1950_v2_7de4e0018627eb0a87ee26129a44e8fc9df71ad5.jpg