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Okihara
5th Feb 2019, 04:52
Are you allowed to practise stalls when flying solo in Australia? Assume the pilot holds current licence and medical certificate but is endorsed for neither spinning nor aerobatics.

As outlined in previous threads, CAR used to define straight and steady stalls as no aerobatic manoeuvre. In the meantime the paragraph was removed and I can't find regulation that says an instructor has to be present if stalls are to be done.

Assume also best practice: sufficient altitude to recover by 3000 ft. AGL, HASELL checks, no populated areas, daytime, no whisky in the 8 hours immediately preceding departure for said stall practice.

Is there a definite answer to this question?

Okihara
5th Feb 2019, 05:03
My interpretation of the very question is that the applicable context falls under CASR 61.385, aka. General competency rule, https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/general-competency-pilots. (https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/general-competency-pilots)

As such, the decision to practice of straight and steady stalls when solo rests with the pilot and is allowed under this rule.

Icarus2001
5th Feb 2019, 06:23
Yes you can.

Okihara
5th Feb 2019, 06:44
Yes you can.

Any reference/regulation/reasoning to support that?

djpil
5th Feb 2019, 06:59
No rule anywhere which states that a pilot with a licence may not do stalls but note the new definition of aerobatics. Don't abruptly pitch nose down to recover because that would be aerobatics!

A few years ago CASA redefined aerobatics as:
"aerobatic manoeuvres, for an aircraft, means manoeuvres of the aircraft that involve:(a) bank angles that are greater than 60°; or
(b) pitch angles that are greater than 45°, or are otherwise abnormal to the aircraft type; or
(c) abrupt changes of speed, direction, angle of bank or angle of pitch."

So no longer conforms to the ICAO definition.

Andy_G
5th Feb 2019, 07:47
Watch the old FAA "stalling for safety" video on youtube. Keeps it real without getting gnarly.
Just do it with lots of height, remember your training?

Okihara
5th Feb 2019, 08:33
No rule anywhere which states that a pilot with a licence may not do stalls but note the new definition of aerobatics. Don't abruptly pitch nose down to recover because that would be aerobatics!

A few years ago CASA redefined aerobatics as:
"aerobatic manoeuvres, for an aircraft, means manoeuvres of the aircraft that involve:(a) bank angles that are greater than 60°; or
(b) pitch angles that are greater than 45°, or are otherwise abnormal to the aircraft type; or
(c) abrupt changes of speed, direction, angle of bank or angle of pitch."

So no longer conforms to the ICAO definition.

... aka. as long as you're comfortably in the stall and at no cost trying to recovering from it then you should be fine doing it solo :ugh:

Sunfish
5th Feb 2019, 08:38
So no dramatic youtube videoclips to be posted.

Capt Fathom
5th Feb 2019, 08:39
Are you allowed to practise stalls when flying solo in Australia?

Who is going to know... unless you tell someone! :}​​​​​​​

Sunfish
5th Feb 2019, 09:38
your ADSB will tell on you

Car RAMROD
5th Feb 2019, 09:39
What if you accidentally stall?

multiple times...

Vref+5
5th Feb 2019, 10:02
If you have the appropriate rating, flight review, proficiency check, your fine. Just operate within the AFM limits. It should tell you what the permissible manoeuvres are.

Sunfish
5th Feb 2019, 11:11
you need to recognise the characteristics of each type with different configurations. practice away.

Okihara
5th Feb 2019, 11:42
If you have the appropriate rating, flight review, proficiency check, your fine. Just operate within the AFM limits. It should tell you what the permissible manoeuvres are.
If so, what exactly are those?

Ex FSO GRIFFO
5th Feb 2019, 13:25
Hey Bravo.....et Al....

I AM 'old', and I still like to practice 'stalls and 'spins' etc... just to 'ensure' that I will continue to grow a whole lot 'older'.....and still enjoy my 'dancing amongst the clouds'....

Live Life..!!!
Cheers...…...

Ollie Onion
5th Feb 2019, 18:49
Why wouldn’t you practise stalling, it is a basic training manoeuvre that all pilots should be competent in carrying out.

DeRated
5th Feb 2019, 22:14
... when you 'nearly' practice stalling every landing!

djpil
5th Feb 2019, 22:27
If so, what exactly are those?The ones written in the POH for your aeroplane.

Okihara
5th Feb 2019, 22:40
The ones written in the POH for your aeroplane.

I was referring to:
If you have the appropriate rating, flight review, proficiency check, your fine

What rating other the class or type rating?

gerry111
6th Feb 2019, 05:26
....and still enjoy my 'dancing amongst the clouds'....

Careful there Griffo, the walls have ears. Perhaps 'dancing between the clouds'?

jonkster
6th Feb 2019, 07:37
I was referring to:

What rating other the class or type rating?

I am assuming the poster meant that the POH or FM may list a series of manouvres approved for the aircraft and might include some that now require an aerobatic or spin 'flight activity endorsement' on your part 61 licence before you can do them.

sheppey
6th Feb 2019, 12:46
Assume also best practice: sufficient altitude to recover by 3000 ft. AGL, HASELL checks,

Best Practice? Where does that gem come from? Where is the regulation requiring stalling to be conducted above 3000 ft or to be recovered by 3000 ft? It would surely depend on aircraft type. With Cessna, Warrior et al, a competent pilot should recover with less than 100 feet height loss so why 3000 ft? Of course it could be a flying school money making exercise since it takes a long time to get to 3000 ft in most light singles especially on a warm day. All the time VDO is merrily clicking away..
What is a HASELL check? Unable to find reference under Definitions in in AIP or in any manufacturer's POH

Okihara
6th Feb 2019, 14:08
What is a HASELL check? Unable to find reference under Definitions in in AIP or in any manufacturer's POH
MOS: A5.1 (a).

Best Practice? Where does that gem come from?
urbandictionary.com sums it up quite well:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/672x174/screen_shot_2019_02_07_at_02_08_36_c4cee48aaf3783339718da3f0 18a32eb63540c20.png

Sunfish
6th Feb 2019, 23:13
3000ft? Allow for spin recovery if you botch the stall. I’ve had one idiot instructor demonstrate the “benign ” stalling characteristics of an Evector sportstar down to 500ft. Overconfident prick.

engine out
7th Feb 2019, 00:08
I guess the 3000ft comes from the flight instructors handbook.


“is important that sufficient height is gained to ensure recovery by 3,000 feet above ground level and that
the aeroplane is in the appropriate training area. The pre-stalling check will of course vary from aeroplane to aeroplane, but will normally cover such items as harness, hatches, loose articles, trims, brakes, mixture, carburettor heat, fuel, etc. The student should be provided with and expected to learn such a check list. A turn through 360 degrees to ensure that all is clear around and below
should be carried out immediately prior to commencing the first stall and a 90 degree turn should be carried out before subsequent stalls.”

Okihara
7th Feb 2019, 00:31
As the discussion is slightly drifting out of context, I'd like to ask flight instructors reading this:


When sending your students solo, do you ever ask them to practise stalls? e.g. on consolidation solo flights before their flight tests.

The Bullwinkle
7th Feb 2019, 01:37
your ADSB will tell on you

But it won't tell anyone how many were on board! :ok:

Squawk7700
7th Feb 2019, 02:22
... and of course, anyone running one of the major EFB’s also has their entire flight recorded and possibly available to the authorities.

So if you’re going to do something shonky, you’ll need to turn off your ADSB AND put your iPad on standby!

chance
7th Feb 2019, 02:34
Why limit the query to stalls. Would you not also want to practice forced landings, precautionary search and landings, low level circuits, flapless approaches, go arounds, simulated brake failure landings and the list goes on?

Okihara
7th Feb 2019, 02:47
Why limit the query to stalls. Would you not also want to practice forced landings, precautionary search and landings, low level circuits, flapless approaches, go arounds, simulated brake failure landings and the list goes on?

By all means do. Hereby happy to extend the query to include those activities.

Squawk7700
7th Feb 2019, 03:10
Why limit the query to stalls. Would you not also want to practice forced landings, precautionary search and landings, low level circuits, flapless approaches, go arounds, simulated brake failure landings and the list goes on?

Because generally none of those are portrayed by many instructors as being allowed when solo.

One that comes to mind is an actual engine off landing. Not sure about GA but in RA world it can only be done with the CFI on board (from memory).

uncle8
7th Feb 2019, 09:21
One that comes to mind is an actual engine off landing. Not sure about GA but in RA world it can only be done with the CFI on board (from memory).

Don't know about RA but you must practise engine off (idle) approaches if you are to have any confidence in carrying out a real one. You will become rusty or very rusty without some practice.
Stalling doesn't require the same amount of judgement and calculations so, while it is good to practise, doesn't need so much.

Lead Balloon
7th Feb 2019, 09:46
Is a private pilot permitted to urinate into an empty drink container, while in command in flight?

Squawk7700
7th Feb 2019, 09:51
Don't know about RA but you must practise engine off (idle) approaches if you are to have any confidence in carrying out a real one. You will become rusty or very rusty without some practice.
Stalling doesn't require the same amount of judgement and calculations so, while it is good to practise, doesn't need so much.

In RAA you do engine off as in engine TURNED off... as in propellor not spinning.

Probably not a great idea for a hot Lycoming or Continental when it may need to be restarted quickly. Not an issue for a Rotax though.

Lead Balloon
7th Feb 2019, 09:55
How does one get the propeller to stop spinning if it’s attached to a “hot Lycoming or Continental” in the air, Squawk?

uncle8
7th Feb 2019, 10:28
Is a private pilot permitted to urinate into an empty drink container, while in command in flight?
From what I have read, it is permitted but there are some requirements:
For a male pilot-
Both hands must remain on the controls,
The passenger/co-pilot/best friend/wife/girlfriend must hold the container and "steer"
Don't know about female.

sheppey
7th Feb 2019, 11:23
I’ve had one idiot instructor demonstrate the “benign ” stalling characteristics of an Evector sportstar down to 500ft. Overconfident prick.
Glider pilots are taught stalls and stall recoveries often at 1500 feet. None of this 3000 ft rubbish and gliders don't have an engine to help recover with minimum loss of height. 3000 ft just in case the stall turns into a spin was never the reason why 3000 ft was mandated years ago. That was purely for aerobatics and a stall is not an aerobatic manoeuvre.

On the other hand if you are in a Mustang fighter and you inadvertently hold the control column back in a stall the Pilots Notes states: "a wing will drop very rapidly and the aircraft will become inverted" "Power on spins should never be intentionally performed. As many as five or six turns may be made after recovery action and 9000 ft to 10,000 ft lost" Page 33 RAAF Publication No 780 dated September 1950. So there is one case you would be wise to practice stalling above 3000 ft..

Lead Balloon
7th Feb 2019, 19:07
From what I have read, it is permitted but there are some requirements:
For a male pilot-
Both hands must remain on the controls,
The passenger/co-pilot/best friend/wife/girlfriend must hold the container and "steer"
Don't know about female.
​​​​​What if the pilot self-identifies as a women? ​​

jonkster
7th Feb 2019, 21:02
As the discussion is slightly drifting out of context, I'd like to ask flight instructors reading this:When sending your students solo, do you ever ask them to practise stalls? e.g. on consolidation solo flights before their flight tests.

Stalling is not an aerobatic manouvre otherwise instructors without an aero activity endorsement (and the majority won't), would not be able to do them - let alone teach them.

There is no 'stalling' flight activity endorsement (like there is for spinning) so you can stall without holding a licence (ie a student), therefore a student should be able to legally stall an aircraft solo.

As I see it...

I can see no regulation that would prevent allowing a student who had been assessed as competent to enter and recover from a stall, to practise them as part of their supervised solo consolidation. (Would love to know if there is a regulation though - is there anything I am missing?)

The decision to allow a student to practise stalling solo on any particular flight would depend on the student's training, ability and currency on the aircraft (as assessed by the instructor supervising the solo). The instructor would have to explicitly brief the student on what manouvres and sequences they would practise on the solo flight.

Am I missing something?

djpil
8th Feb 2019, 00:09
Agreed jonkster, although I don't think that Okihara is a student?

Stalls were mentioned in the old version of CAR 155 and my interpretation of the rambling text was that stalling had to comply with all the rules about aerobatics except the one about needing an aerobatic endorsement i.e. harness secure and above 3,000 ft etc. These days there is no minimum altitude specified in the rules. Except that some pilots will be trapped by CASA's new definition of aerobatics - some of my students and PPLs have nicely put me into a spin unintentionally.

jonkster
8th Feb 2019, 01:08
on a side note, can an instructor without an aero endorsement teach (or even demo) incipient spin recovery? Or a stall off a climbing turn?
reason I ask is, if aerobatics now means:

(a) bank angles that are greater than 60°; or
(b) pitch angles that are greater than 45°, or are otherwise abnormal to the aircraft type or
(c) abrupt changes of speed, direction, angle of bank or angle of pitch.

surely such stall training could come close to falling under some of those criteria (particularly (c)).

Genuine question.

Okihara
8th Feb 2019, 01:40
That's it, djpil, not longer a student, but happy to stay sharp by practising those manoeuvres every now and then, hence (the legitimacy of) the question.

Squawk7700
8th Feb 2019, 02:51
How does one get the propeller to stop spinning if it’s attached to a “hot Lycoming or Continental” in the air, Squawk?

Oh dear, there’s always one peanut in the crowd that thinks the prop will always keep spinning :-(

Lead Balloon
8th Feb 2019, 03:09
And I do apologise for being that peanut.

But I would appreciate the benefit of your experience and obvious wisdom.

How does a peanut like me get the propellor to stop spinning if it’s attached to a hot Lycoming or Continental in the air? I know from first-hand experience that it’s not by turning the fuel off or the magnetos off, or both.

Aussie Bob
8th Feb 2019, 03:51
How does a peanut like me get the propellor to stop spinning if it’s attached to a hot Lycoming or Continental in the air? I know from first-hand experience that it’s not by turning the fuel off or the magnetos off, or both.

Pull the mixture and hold in level stall till it stops ..... re-establish glide and use starter to get it turning again - when you're ready - or do a dive and see what speed autorotation commences. Over an airport may be prudent.

Lead Balloon
8th Feb 2019, 03:59
Yeah the stall sometimes works, but it’s amazing how long you have to hold it there before the windmilling ceases. And sometimes other stuff happens that means the level stall can’t be maintained!

Vag277
8th Feb 2019, 04:20
If you stop the VW in a Starlet nothing will get the prop to turn to airstart. A couple of interesting forced landings, at least one in the water near Rottnest attest to that.

Capt Fathom
8th Feb 2019, 05:07
Probably not a great idea for a hot Lycoming or Continental when it may need to be restarted quickly.



Once you pull the mixture inflight, your Lycoming or Continental is not going to stay hot for long! :eek:

Lead Balloon
8th Feb 2019, 05:12
The CHTs tend to take quite a bit of time to cool down. Not much difference from pulling the throttle to idle.