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June737
4th Feb 2019, 10:57
Hello, I'm B737 FO and I'd like to ask about the relationship among LOC, main landing gear and FD for heavy crosswind landing.

- According to B737 TM, "whenever a crab is maintained during a crosswind approach, offset the flight deck on the upwind side of centerline so that the main gear touches down in the center of the runway."

- LOC antenna is located at radom.

Q.When crab is maintained during heavy crosswind(ex 30 kts)
If the LOC pointer and FDs are on center, does it mean A/C nose(radom) is on extended RWY centerline and main landing gear on downwind side?
If yes, how can I maintain main landing gear on extended RWY centerline during crab approach? Should I be on upwind side while LOC pointer and FD on downwind side?

Best regards,

safelife
4th Feb 2019, 19:19
You're to look outside at that stage... yes the LOC bar won't be centered any more.

pattern_is_full
4th Feb 2019, 20:04
Seems like it would be a real but minimal effect.

A little trigonometry says that for a 737-8, with the main gear about 20 meters behind the nose, and a crab angle of 5°, the nose would be offset about 1.7 meters upwind of the runway centerline when the main gear are centered either side of the runway centerline.

For a 3000-meter runway, with a TD zone 500 meters down the runway (2500-meter LOC range), the nose being 1.7 meters left or right of centerline would show a 0.04° needle deflection downwind at the touchdown zone.

And since full-scale deflection of the LOC needle for an ILS is 2.5°, that would mean the LOC needle deflection would be about 1.6% of the full deflection.

Probably less than the width of the needle itself!

Longer runway or shorter airframe (731/2/3/4/7) or smaller crab angle - the LOC needle deflection will be even less. Over the threshold it will also be even less. Longer airframe or shorter runway or larger crab angle would result in more visible deflection.

Someone can check my math - sines and cosines were never my favorite subject.

winterOPS
4th Feb 2019, 21:33
You're to look outside at that stage... yes the LOC bar won't be centered any more.


+1

use the Window....

Check Airman
4th Feb 2019, 21:35
pattern_is_full

I won't double check your math, but to at first glance, I'm sure your conclusion is right, and the effect is negligible.

RVF750
4th Feb 2019, 22:19
Too much thinking and not enough hands on! You definitely shouldn't worry about this, just look out the window and fly the plane! You can de-crab a 737-800w up to about 20kts of crosswind, but after that there's not enough aileron authority to keep the wings level so you crab the rest.

Even if the mains are not on the centre line, they soon will be as they're pointing the right way to make their way onto it! Just remember, the autobrake will effectively de-crab for you, just keep it going down the middle with the rudder and keep the into-wind aileron fully in at least until you get control taken off you by the skipper. the untidiness is his/her problem after that.

ImbracableCrunk
5th Feb 2019, 03:53
This sounds like my time at KAL. After a captain would smash the plane on the ground, he would have me print up a landing report.

"Ah. I flared 3.2 degrees. I should have flared 3.3 degrees!"

No, you should have been looking out the window.

ManaAdaSystem
6th Feb 2019, 09:01
The big rudder on the 737 makes it capable of crosswind landings way above the demonstrated limits.
I don’t look at the localizer when I fly close to the ground, but I keep the nose upwind of the centreline.
I don’t fly in a wing down/de crabbed state ever, just kick the nose straight and drop the wing just before touch down.
It works but takes a bit of coordination to get it right.
With this procedure I have done crosswind landings with 50kts crosswind in the simulator.

RVF750
6th Feb 2019, 14:30
The big rudder on the 737 makes it capable of crosswind landings way above the demonstrated limits.
I don’t look at the localizer when I fly close to the ground, but I keep the nose upwind of the centreline.
I don’t fly in a wing down/de crabbed state ever, just kick the nose straight and drop the wing just before touch down.
It works but takes a bit of coordination to get it right.
With this procedure I have done crosswind landings with 50kts crosswind in the simulator.

That would take a VERY accurate piece of co-ordination. As I said, the adverse roll secondary effect of yaw is way more than the roll control of an-800 can cope with. one moment too soon with your method and it will drop the out of wind wing pretty quickly. Unless you're Red 1 I wouldn't recommend it.... well, maybe if you're messing about in the Simulator but not in the real world.

Chesty Morgan
6th Feb 2019, 14:44
What on earth are you talking about?

That's the exact way I've landed every 737 in a crosswind for the last decade. I'm not Red 1.

ManaAdaSystem
6th Feb 2019, 21:10
What on earth are you talking about?

That's the exact way I've landed every 737 in a crosswind for the last decade. I'm not Red 1.

Same for me. Not that complicated. Doesn’t take that much aileron either. Just don’t start this at 50 - 100 ft.
No, I don’t do 50 kts xwind landings in RL but it is nice to know it’s within the aircraft capability.
After all, the tables are just demonstrated limits.

stilton
7th Feb 2019, 01:37
The big rudder on the 737 makes it capable of crosswind landings way above the demonstrated limits.
I don’t look at the localizer when I fly close to the ground, but I keep the nose upwind of the centreline.
I don’t fly in a wing down/de crabbed state ever, just kick the nose straight and drop the wing just before touch down.
It works but takes a bit of coordination to get it right.
With this procedure I have done crosswind landings with 50kts crosswind in the simulator.



I hope this is just your vernacular and you don’t really ‘kick’ the nose straight


Drift should be pushed off smoothly

ManaAdaSystem
7th Feb 2019, 07:58
I hope this is just your vernacular and you don’t really ‘kick’ the nose straight


Drift should be pushed off smoothly

I think 999 out of 1000 pilots understand what I’m saying, but if you want to go into the finer details of aligning the nose of the aircraft with the runway, I’m happy to do so.
For a landing in 50 kts xwind I don’t just press the rudder to get the nose where I want it to be, there is an element of inertia involved. A firmer application of rudder than in a 20 kts xwind.
I had the pleasure of landing in 50 kts just a few days ago. Xwind was 30 ish. Again, a more firm use of rudder to to put the nose in the right direction.
I like xwind landings. That is because I’m confident in what the aircraft can do.
It doesn’t mean I don’t stuff up my xwind landings every now and then, but it doesn’t happen very often.

exeng
7th Feb 2019, 12:46
I'm with Chesty and ManaAda here.

On the 737 (200 to 800 variants). Crab until shortly before touchdown and then squeeze the drift off applying aileron to keep the wings level and erring (if that is the right word) into lowering the into wind wing a little. Worked well in very strong crosswinds with plenty of rudder and aileron left. That was how I was taught and it seems to work for me. Ditto the 757.

The 777 was a somewhat different matter as we were taught the wing down method but also that crab was acceptable. Aiming to keep the main gear on the centreline was required. Never did any limiting crosswind landings as at that time I was an F/O.

The A320: I once had difficulty in keeping the into wind level on a strong crosswind despite full into wind sidestick (I was reasonably new to type). Talking to some A320 old hands who told me that the drift needed to be removed early in order for 'the system' to catch up. Not sure about the truth in that. The Bus always held some 'mystery' for me but many others loved it.

The final approach and landing, whether crosswind or not, and regardless of type, should always be carried out visually.


Regards
Exeng

PEI_3721
8th Feb 2019, 10:02
ManaAdaSystem, re # 8, 11, 13
When expressing alternative views it would help if the basis for these were provided.
Whilst the size of a control surface could be interpreted as providing greater theoretical crosswind capability, this might not consider if control power can be achieved, or any adverse consequences when attempting to use it.

The control response or aircraft motion could be insufficient for the conditions; similarly piloting finesse. Thus the well considered advice to smoothly control the aircraft. The need to ‘kick’ the rudder could be an indication that you are near your crosswind limit; a lack of experience in the conditions, control coordination, or poor feedback - lacking a good feel for the aircraft.
Feel is particularly important in judging sideways motion, lateral movement vice sway of normal flight, seat of the pants accelerations - poorly represented (if at all) in simulation.

The consequences of large and/or fast yaw inputs in the roll axis requires similar consideration; and beware control reversals or cross control. The aircraft is physically limited, wind tip or pod scrape; both require significant margin to ensure an adequate level of safety.
In addition, even if an aircraft can be aligned with the runway for a landing, control is still required on the ground, perhaps a greater need than that required in the air.

A hazard of self reference definitions - your ‘max demonstrated’, is that any difference with the agreed industry definition increases risk in operation, reducing safety margins, and adds confusion to the complexities of operation.
Furthermore, there may be a greater hazard if an unwary pilot believes these erroneous statements.
In a professional forum individuals must consider their responsibilities in what is said; this is best defended with well considered opinion without assumption.

For general info:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zq6lxugvocvhmio/A-B%20Crosswind%20presentation.pdf?dl=0
(If no App, use website option)

Capn Bloggs
8th Feb 2019, 13:10
Say whaaat??

RVF750
8th Feb 2019, 13:53
I think that was what I was saying but slightly more complicated. Yes ManaAdaSystem, I was talking about more of a steady state control ability. The 737-800 can't hold more than about 20kts without wing drop from the adverse yaw, despite full aileron, plus the increased drag really costs you speed and lift.

So yes, I concure, a last second swing round onto centreline can be achieved, but I've seen a lot of these on Youtube, as many where it goes horribly wrong, with overcontrol, wing rocking and other effects as the lucky ones that don't.
If you can't hold it steady, then it's what it is. I can smoothy bring it into wind in the flare and hit the aileron stops shortly after 20kts. so over that I accept crab. The aircraft doesn't seem to mind at all. I've always tried to de-crab earlier than some. My bad perhaps. Too late now to chance, I'm closer to retirement than I was....but not close enough.

safetypee
8th Feb 2019, 14:05
June737, #1,
Don’t get too concerned about the theory of electronic guidance. The runway is always the primary reference for landing.
Crosswind operations are more art than science, although science provides the boundary conditions.
Getting a feel for the situation is important, as is being in the loop. These aspects are subjective, something which you have to learn with experience, looking - following through, and practice as allowed; knowing where the aircraft (cg) is, and direction and speed of movement.

Re #15 link: has anyone experienced the downwind turning effect during take off?
Would this particular mechanism have an opposite effect when using reverse thrust?
Is this a concern during takeoff in 737s with the larger engines - intake / fan influence?

Capn Bloggs
8th Feb 2019, 15:11
"turning"?? How about "yawing"? Although I suppose it is Airbus/Boeing...

I was surprised they said the effect was "dramatic" and may be limiting. Looking forward to reading comments from the "underslung" people...

As for "Max Demonstrated", in my view this is a major copout. An aeroplane must have a limiting crosswind based on the technique used to get it on the ground eg forward slip, the bank angle will be limiting. For the manufacturers to state only the max demonstrated crosswind and not call it a limit (which we all interpret it as) is pretty weak, I reckon.

PEI_3721
8th Feb 2019, 16:52
Bloggs, in the air an aircraft yaws; on the ground it turns relative to a ground reference - wheels.
Being either in the air or on the ground, an aircraft can translate laterally due to wind side force, this is ‘very relative’ to the edge of runway. ;)

Certification requirements specify the conditions when the crosswind is to be published as a limit; this is rarely used. Certification is not an absolute science, more probability; in addition we might be surprised by the influence that the operating industry has had on the ‘need’ for max demonstrated.

Defining personal limits is a very good safety policy, but not to forget that changes should only be considered after evaluation of landings experienced and not that just before landing. :ok:

ManaAdaSystem
9th Feb 2019, 12:37
I’ve been reading your answers and after careful consideration I have reached a conclusion: I’m Red 1!
I never knew landing a 737 could be this dangerous or difficult!
Running out of ailerons at 20 kts xwind? Are you sure we are flying the same 737?
When I started on the NG some 20 years ago, one of the first tables I looked at was what it took to put a wing, engine pod or flap track fairing on the ground. You really need to mess up the landing in a severe way to do this. Never looked at it again
It does happen out there, but very seldom.

As for Real Life flying: A week or two before xmas 2018 I did a flight to LHR. Wind from the south with gusts at 40 kts. The type of weather that make you miss runway 23. We landed and so did everybody else.
You two would probably be on your way to MAN along with EK.
Flying and reading the manual at the same time is very difficult, I imagine.

Chesty Morgan
9th Feb 2019, 13:10
No, I'm Red 1....and so is my wife.

ManaAdaSystem
9th Feb 2019, 13:32
No, I'm Red 1....and so is my wife.

OK, I’ll take RED 3. I don’t dare to challenge your wife.

Correction to the date for the LHR flight. It was Oct 12, not in December. Afternoon landing.

Global Aviator
9th Feb 2019, 19:31
What ever happened to plane (yes delibrate) old aviator navigate communicate?

I’ve flown a few different types and at the end of it all it’s no different to when I learnt crosswind in a C150!

Be it AB or B, kick it straight at the right point and ooohhh you’ve landed.

Ok fair enough you can completely fook it up and not use rudder but it ain’t pretty.

Why do we have to try to reinvent flying?

de facto
10th Feb 2019, 10:48
This sounds like my time at KAL. After a captain would smash the plane on the ground, he would have me print up a landing report.

"Ah. I flared 3.2 degrees. I should have flared 3.3 degrees!"

No, you should have been looking out the window.

Priceless!!😂😂🤘🏻

PEI_3721
10th Feb 2019, 17:35
Global Aviator, et al,
Although it might be difficult, try to remember how you learnt to fly, how you gained knowledge and ability to land in a crosswind.
Being more of an art than most flying, you can watch, a but only really learn from doing.
Each aircraft type is different; coordination yaw and roll, how much of each, when, how quickly. Every wind, runway, aircraft configuration, speed, create different situations; its very rare to encounter the same ‘crosswind’ twice.

The challenge is how to accumulate the necessary experience; even when something is ‘right’ we might not be satisfied, or how do we know what is right until we have done ‘it right’ before.

“Things go wrong so that we will know when they go right”, but in today’s industry we may not be allowed to be wrong, not even a little bit. So how might we learn, gain tacit knowledge, experience, ‘you can’t do that until you have done it before’, or until promoted.
Simulator they cry, but crosswind simulation is one of the most difficult to represent, particularly the inadequacy of side-force.

Instead of us oldies reminiscing how easy ‘it’ is based in many years of experience in vastly different situations and aircraft, consider how relevant ‘experience’ might be transferred to less experienced pilots.
Gaining experience in modern aviation might be a greater problem than finessing a crosswind landing.

flyfan
10th Feb 2019, 18:06
Global Aviator, et al,
Although it might be difficult, try to remember how you learnt to fly, how you gained knowledge and ability to land in a crosswind.
Being more of an art than most flying, you can watch, a but only really learn from doing.
Each aircraft type is different; coordination yaw and roll, how much of each, when, how quickly. Every wind, runway, aircraft configuration, speed, create different situations; its very rare to encounter the same ‘crosswind’ twice.

The challenge is how to accumulate the necessary experience; even when something is ‘right’ we might not be satisfied, or how do we know what is right until we have done ‘it right’ before.

“Things go wrong so that we will know when they go right”, but in today’s industry we may not be allowed to be wrong, not even a little bit. So how might we learn, gain tacit knowledge, experience, ‘you can’t do that until you have done it before’, or until promoted.
Simulator they cry, but crosswind simulation is one of the most difficult to represent, particularly the inadequacy of side-force.

Instead of us oldies reminiscing how easy ‘it’ is based in many years of experience in vastly different situations and aircraft, consider how relevant ‘experience’ might be transferred to less experienced pilots.
Gaining experience in modern aviation might be a greater problem than finessing a crosswind landing.



Thanks for that. In fact I think this thread is pretty interesting to read for newer pilots like I am.

Capn Bloggs
11th Feb 2019, 00:34
I think there's a bit of overthinking going on here. You either kick it straight at the last second (decrab in the flare, bank if needed) or fly a forward slip (Boeing's preferred technique-in mine, at least). You certainly don't do what the OP is doing. I like doing max crosswinds in the sim; they are close enough to the real aeroplane to not matter, and you can certainly get the hang of the technique, whichever one you use, so when you do one for real, it's not that difficult.

jimtx
11th Feb 2019, 01:28
I think there's a bit of overthinking going on here. You either kick it straight at the last second (decrab in the flare, bank if needed) or fly a forward slip (Boeing's preferred technique-in mine, at least). You certainly don't do what the OP is doing. I like doing max crosswinds in the sim; they are close enough to the real aeroplane to not matter, and you can certainly get the hang of the technique, whichever one you use, so when you do one for real, it's not that difficult.
Isn't the decrab in the flare a forward slip if done correctly, applying opposite aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to yaw?

Capn Bloggs
11th Feb 2019, 02:25
Isn't the decrab in the flare a forward slip if done correctly, applying opposite aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to yaw?
Forward slip=straighten her up with rudder at 200ft (Boeing then changed it to "below" 200ft), use aileron to keep on the CL. Crossed controls, obviously, for a good number of seconds (feels awful), not just kick it straight, drop the wing and drop it on. Boeing changed (introduced) the Forward Slip on my machine a few years back, I suspect because what used to be "natural" was no longer so to the Magenta Children.

Vessbot
11th Feb 2019, 02:29
It's the same thing, just a matter of how long before touchdown.

PEI_3721
11th Feb 2019, 16:00
Bloggs,
… you appear to have missed a previous point. No matter how capable we are, or think we are, we are only as good as the next landing.
How might we, individually, compare the simulator with the real world. By experiencing a range of spot points, but not every situation, by relating to theory, but what is the theory of your aircraft, or do we just assume.

Rating the difficulty of a flight manoeuvre (‘it not that difficult’) is an individual, subjective assessment, there is no universal scale, thus no easy means of exchanging hard-earned knowledge with those not so experienced.
The problem is not so much in performing the manoeuvre, it’s understanding why it did not turn out as expected and explaining how it might be bettered; and then how to judge those conditions (within the max demo limit) when the manoeuvre should not be attempted.

Operational crosswind limits might be proportional to the number of stripes on the sleeve, but that does not translate to ability; neither the aircraft or runway width recognise stripes or experience.

June737,
further info re your question #1.
https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corporate-topics/publications/safety-first/Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_20.pdf Page 22 ->
Although the article states “… correct lateral flight path” means localizer centered or nose of the aircraft trajectory aligned with the runway axis, thus ensuring the pilot’s eye is aligned with the runway axis”; this should not be taken to extremes, there is a point of visual transition as explained in earlier posts, so that the difference between LOC and visual is not a concern. Also, remember that the autoland references LOC and minimises drift, although perhaps not allowed in high crosswinds.

And a previous view of crosswind landing certification; https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corporate-topics/publications/safety-first/Airbus_Safety_first_magazine_15.pdf Page 8 ->

Capn Bloggs
11th Feb 2019, 22:38
PEI, Yes, there is overthinking going on here. Get in the sim and practice them. The visual bit. Simple! Then you get better at them and eventually can handle the limit (whatever that is). The concept isn't that difficult! :rolleyes:

And stop quoting me out of context. I said:

so when you do one for real, it's not that difficult.

Mansfield
13th Feb 2019, 15:10
"Running out of ailerons at 20 kts xwind? Are you sure we are flying the same 737?"

Excerpted from my admittedly 10 year old 737 NG Flight Crew Training Manual: "Sideslip only (zero crab) landings are not recommended with crosswind components in excess of 17 knots at flaps 15, 20 knots at flaps 30, or 23 knots at flaps 40. This recommendation ensures adequate ground clearance and is based on maintaining adequate control margin."

"That would take a VERY accurate piece of co-ordination."

Boeing advertises three crosswind landing techniques: decrab-during-flare, touchdown in crab, and sideslip. The decrab-during-flare technique does not involve lowering a wing; the intention is to decrab just before touchdown while maintaining wings level. I'm not a four engine guy, but my understanding is that this is not a new idea to the DC-8 crowd. It was required training at my operator before we could utilize the full crosswind capability of the 737 MAX, because of the reduced wingtip clearance.

A particularly useful reference for the topic of crosswind landings is here:

​​​​​​​https://reports.nlr.nl/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10921/759/TP-2001-217.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y