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juzanuthapilot
1st Feb 2019, 00:04
Well that was unexpected. It seems to have caught Alliance by surprise as they have since announced to the market that they were unaware of the transaction.

Going Nowhere
1st Feb 2019, 00:39
https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-acquires-19-9-per-cent-stake-in-alliance-airlines/

Qantas expects to ultimately seek regulatory approval from the ACCC to build on its current shareholding, with a longer-term view of taking a majority position in Alliance Airlines in order to better serve the charter market by unlocking synergies.

GoldCoastTobacconist
1st Feb 2019, 00:45
Had been mentioned at Watermark around 6 months ago as Alliance crew were operating on behalf of Qantas on behalf of Network on behalf of Qantaslink ... came to fruition ...

Is this the Network of Queensland?

Goat Whisperer
1st Feb 2019, 00:51
Not just Queensland, SA, NT, and a very significant WA market share too!

VA will be scrambling for a response. A lot of their Qld flying is done by QQ!

chickoroll
1st Feb 2019, 02:00
This could be a good thing for VA, if they get someone who knows the they are doing they could easily expand VARA to replace them.

Johhny Utah
1st Feb 2019, 02:07
Great....another ‘rainy day’ purchase, ala Impulse... just great.

morno
1st Feb 2019, 02:12
Wasnít that the whole point of buying Network? The wording from Qantas sounds very familiar.....

Icarus2001
1st Feb 2019, 02:20
Qantas expects to ultimately seek regulatory approval from the ACCC to build on its current shareholding, If I recall correctly Virgin tried to buy Alliance but they were thwarted by the ACCC, anti competitive and all. So if QF owns Network already how on earth could the ACCC approve them owning another competitor in the market? It would be like Coles buying IGA. This would clearly decrease competition in the market.

Oh wait...

Acebucket
1st Feb 2019, 02:26
This could be extremely good news for VA pilots, accelerated phase out of the notoriously unreliable F100 and the return of a 100 seat east coast jet to take over the routes presently operated by QQ.

Assuming of course the ACCC approve a takeover, a big ask given the market share Qantas group currently controls....

The Green Goblin
1st Feb 2019, 05:11
This is there to leverage the network guys, who leverage the Jetstar guys who leverage the qantas guys.

It also looks like they are building up a national fifo operation. They will end up with pretty much all the fokkers in the world. Netlance will also be big enough to take on 320s from JQ as they reach the end of their high utilisation life.

It could be a formidable operation if merged with sunstate, eastern and eventually the cobham airline division.

It will also pincer VA who use alliance as a stop gap to cover network shortages.

Interesting times.

machtuk
1st Feb 2019, 05:35
If I recall correctly Virgin tried to buy Alliance but they were thwarted by the ACCC, anti competitive and all. So if QF owns Network already how on earth could the ACCC approve them owning another competitor in the market? It would be like Coles buying IGA. This would clearly decrease competition in the market.

Oh wait...

.....oh wait...indeed, it's QF, the SkyGods have plenty of friends in high places.,

neville_nobody
1st Feb 2019, 05:38
What makes QF believe they will get ACCC approval? If it was anti competitive for VA to own it I can hardly see how QF owning it isn't.

What do QF know that everybody else doesn't?

Rated De
1st Feb 2019, 05:45
What makes QF believe they will get ACCC approval? If it was anti competitive for VA to own it I can hardly see how QF owning it isn't.

What do QF know that everybody else doesn't?

Ask Olivia, she is pretty handy dispensing freebies...

Qantas and Virgin Australia are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year feting watchdogs, public servants, and politicians and their families with complimentary memberships to private airline lounges, limousines and business and first-class flight upgrades. More than two thirds of parliamentarians accept the travel freebies, as do senior officials from the Australian Securities and Investments Commission, Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, Department of Infrastructure and the Treasury.

Soft corruption has wood panelling!

https://www.ausbt.com.au/what-it-s-really-like-inside-the-qantas-chairman-s-lounge

AxialCompressor
1st Feb 2019, 05:52
VA never tried to own it - they wanted to enter into an anti competitive trade alliance and were knocked back. QF have said they will not go on the board , or attempt to change the model . They are at this stage no different from HSBC owing the shares . So they will not have an issue with this level of ownership . The trick will be taking control , but in the meantime VA will have to withstand the embarrassment of Code share aircraft 20% owned by QF ! This is like Game of Thrones . Strategy with the goal of cutting off VA's supply chain , and taking control of the FIFO market .

PlasticFantastic
1st Feb 2019, 06:12
My recollection (which is hazy) was that the accc's decision on VA/QQ rested on silentme fairly detailed analysis on particular markets and routes.

At a quick glance, I struggle to see how QF/QQ would get approved. But, perhaps QF thinks/has advice that it wouldn't fall foul on a market-by-market analysis, or that it could make enough adjustments to assuage any concerns.

Roj approved
1st Feb 2019, 06:43
So, just to be clear,

QF didn't "buy" Alliance Airlines.

They did however buy 19.9% of Alliance. Looking at the financial report from 8/9/2018, https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20180809/pdf/43x60hhp9dh3gp.pdf
that makes them the second largest share holder behind HSBC at 22%.

Of course, since that report there has been some buying and selling of shares, Who sold that 19.9% is the question?

But everyone needs to cool their Jets a little.

I'm sure its a strategic move to squeeze VA some more and sure up some control over the FIFO contracts and of course, QF's favourite IR game of playing pilot/engineering groups against each other.

neville_nobody
1st Feb 2019, 07:23
But everyone needs to cool their Jets a little. I'm sure its a strategic move to squeeze VA some more and sure up some control over the FIFO contracts and of course, QF's favourite IR game of playing pilot/engineering groups against each other.

No it's the first move in a takeover. If it comes off VA will be in a world of hurt on many levels.

Qantas expects to ultimately seek regulatory approval from the ACCC to build on its current shareholding, with a longer-term view of taking a majority position in Alliance Airlines in order to better serve the charter market by unlocking synergies.

Soft corruption has wood panelling!
Maybe so but I can't see QF buying their way out of this one it would be just a little to obvious given the previous ruling

blow.n.gasket
1st Feb 2019, 08:09
So, just to be clear,

QF didn't "buy" Alliance Airlines.

They did however buy 19.9% of Alliance. Looking at the financial report from 8/9/2018, https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20180809/pdf/43x60hhp9dh3gp.pdf
that makes them the second largest share holder behind HSBC at 22%.


Wonder what sort of connections could be found between HSBC , Alan Joyce Pty Ltd , and the airframe Leases of all these burgeoning Qantas Subsidiaries, that happen to lie outside the Qantas Sale Act provisions !

Rated De
1st Feb 2019, 08:33
Wonder what sort of connections could be found between HSBC , Alan Joyce Pty Ltd , and the airframe Leases of all these burgeoning Qantas Subsidiaries, that happen to lie outside the Qantas Sale Act provisions !





What sort of connections indeed.
A tangled grubby web.

As Charlie Munger stated " Show me an incentive and I show you the outcome"

coaldemon
1st Feb 2019, 09:23
Brilliant blocking strategic move. VA will be in a diabolical position if the new shareholder in Alliance can demand better returns i.e higher prices for the machines currently doing work in the charter market. VA's already problematic Costs just goes North to cover off flying they voluntarily handed over. Watch the Tasman and any Pacific routes that are direct competition areas. Could be a Blood bath for a while.

The Bullwinkle
1st Feb 2019, 13:52
What VA needs is it’s own fleet of modern 100 seat aircraft. Maybe something like, I dunno, an Embraer E-190.
Oh, hang on a minute, that’s right.

Arthur D
1st Feb 2019, 15:42
There is no doubt this is a disrupter.

At $2.40 a share, QF are not buying for the aircraft or the business, if they wanted it for that reason they could have paid over $1 a share less only 18 months ago. Furthermore, $60m investment in further fleet expansion at QF would return more than the dividend theyíll pick up from Scott & co.

So this is purely strategic. Question then is what is the strategy?

To disrupt Virgin?
To gain control of FIFO?
to block a potential new competitor?

Or is it a stalking horse, a rainy day play ala Geoff Dixonís Impulse purchase, where the real disruption (Jetstar) was the ability to both stop an aggressive competitor in their tracks whilst simultaneously disrupting Qantasí own labour force. Fast forward and we are potentially looking at a federal government change to a far more labour friendly regime, together with an increasingly ambitious and agressive labour force.

if AJ has shown anything, itís that when it comes to the workforce, he will stop at nothing to win the day.

if you put all of the above together, itís strategically brilliant, whilst simultaneously very concerning for existing employees, customers and the government.

One things for sure, it will consume Alliance and Virgin managements full attention for some time.

AJ needs a legacy before he departs. Even if they do Sunrise or order new aircraft thatís not enough. Dixonís was the Impulse purchase and birth of Jetstar, will Alans be Alliance?

Rated De
1st Feb 2019, 19:28
There is no doubt this is a disrupter.

At $2.40 a share, QF are not buying for the aircraft or the business, if they wanted it for that reason they could have paid over $1 a share less only 18 months ago. Furthermore, $60m investment in further fleet expansion at QF would return more than the dividend they’ll pick up from Scott & co.

So this is purely strategic. Question then is what is the strategy?

To disrupt Virgin?
To gain control of FIFO?
to block a potential new competitor?

Or is it a stalking horse, a rainy day play ala Geoff Dixon’s Impulse purchase, where the real disruption (Jetstar) was the ability to both stop an aggressive competitor in their tracks whilst simultaneously disrupting Qantas’ own labour force. Fast forward and we are potentially looking at a federal government change to a far more labour friendly regime, together with an increasingly ambitious and agressive labour force.

if AJ has shown anything, it’s that when it comes to the workforce, he will stop at nothing to win the day.

if you put all of the above together, it’s strategically brilliant, whilst simultaneously very concerning for existing employees, customers and the government.

One things for sure, it will consume Alliance and Virgin managements full attention for some time.

AJ needs a legacy before he departs. Even if they do Sunrise or order new aircraft that’s not enough. Dixon’s was the Impulse purchase and birth of Jetstar, will Alans be Alliance?


Little Napoleon has had a decade to drive a 'legacy'.
His big megaphone order in 2011 for 110 A320, with 99 to go to JQ and 11 to his Red Q venture a case in point.

Of the 110 aircraft, 11 have been allocated to the new Qantas premium airline which will be established in Kuala Lumpur or Singapore – possibly the first time the A320 will be seen in Qantas mainline colours – while the other 99 will go to Jetstar to accommodate growth and to replace aircraft coming off lease.

Jetstar is an overscale business, despite their desperate prayers the model is 'saturated' Thus, given the genetic desire to 'disrupt' labour, finding a home for the JQ A320 is very important.
First Network now Alliance.

Their fleet decisions are their legacy. That in a decade this inept board, along with Little Napoleon and his zealots have not ordered a single aircraft for Qantas, while exponentially expanding a low margin Jetstar in pursuit of purported labour cost advantage their only focus. With a fossil like Leigh Clifford, looking for for Napoleonic victory over those unions, Little Napoleon and he became the dynamic duo, the poster children of IR.

Efficiently running an airline is a tough business. It requires a high capital investment to build the fleet, high labour costs, strong exposure to market fluctuations, and it involves making decisions today with long-lasting impacts in a volatile and ever-changing industry

That during his tenure, Qantas has been 'terminal', needed $3 billion then didn't, moved to Dubai, moved back, impaired the fleet, then miraculously transformed and yet still talking about an aircraft for its International business that most other airlines settled on a decade ago is his legacy.

FightDeck
1st Feb 2019, 20:04
This is not Impulse or Jetstar over again.
Its only a 20% stake.
Time for a tea and a lie down you lot.
Like Rated D mentioned Red Q was a 100% Qantas owned play. Except it never got off the ground.
JQ HKG. Disasterous loss of shareholder funds without flying a sector.
Dubai one minute. Singapore the next.
Its a 20% shareholding and no more.

Kiwiconehead
1st Feb 2019, 20:53
Its a 20% shareholding and no more.


Except - straight from the horses mouth :

Qantas expects to ultimately seek regulatory approval from the ACCC to build on its current shareholding, with a longer-term view of taking a majority position in Alliance Airlines in order to better serve the charter market by unlocking synergies.

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-acquires-19-9-per-cent-stake-in-alliance-airlines/

dirty deeds
1st Feb 2019, 21:45
What VA needs is itís own fleet of modern 100 seat aircraft. Maybe something like, I dunno, an Embraer E-190.
Oh, hang on a minute, thatís right.

What were the E-190 seat/km operating costs Bullwinkle compared to the Alliance F100........?

Cravenmorehead
2nd Feb 2019, 03:26
Hi everyone here's another way of looking at the Qantas purchase of 19.9% of Alliance
Qantas taking a stake in Alliance is actually quite a clever thing to do. It is not unlike Mum and Dad investors buying shares in the Banks, Telstra , Transurban, AGL etc. These companies are a necessary evil. So while you are paying for the privilege for using their services, you are receiving dividends back at the end of the financial year, if they are successful and well run.
Qantas have no input on the board as such, and I doubt they will receive the regulatory approve to do so. Hence they will be at the mercy of the board who seem very competent.
Alliance have made some very wise and strategic decisions, good luck to them.

XanaduX
2nd Feb 2019, 05:24
What VA needs is itís own fleet of modern 100 seat aircraft. Maybe something like, I dunno, an Embraer E-190.
Oh, hang on a minute, thatís right.

Some of Virgin's E190s are still on the CASA register. It's not too late to bring them back in to service, surely!

Icarus2001
2nd Feb 2019, 06:10
Some of Virgin's E190s are still on the CASA register. It's not too late to bring them back in to service, surely!Would you believe yes? They are still paying the leases on at least three air-frames until 2020.

Street garbage
2nd Feb 2019, 07:21
Would you believe yes? They are still paying the leases on at least three air-frames until 2020.
In whose name are the leases?

737pnf
2nd Feb 2019, 21:45
5 airframes - Wells Fargo and Emerald Aviation AOE 7 Limited https://www.regosearch.com/search/results/?&co=au&Nf2=model&Of2=eq&Vf2=ERJ+190-100+IGW

geeup
2nd Feb 2019, 21:48
Should be a good thing for the Alliance crew.
Network seem to have gone from strength to strength.

Street garbage
3rd Feb 2019, 01:50
5 airframes - Wells Fargo and Emerald Aviation AOE 7 Limited https://www.regosearch.com/search/results/?&co=au&Nf2=model&Of2=eq&Vf2=ERJ+190-100+IGW
Thanks for that. Anybody know anything else about this company? I see QF lease at least one 330 off them...

longlegs
3rd Feb 2019, 02:20
https://avolon.aero/about-us majority owned by WHO WE ARE_BohaiLeasing (http://www.bohaiholding.com/en/About-BCH/about-us.html#a0) owned by HNA Capital (http://www.hnagroup.com/en-us/what-we-do/capital/)

Street garbage
3rd Feb 2019, 04:14
https://avolon.aero/about-us majority owned by WHO WE ARE_BohaiLeasing (http://www.bohaiholding.com/en/About-BCH/about-us.html#a0) owned by HNA Capital (http://www.hnagroup.com/en-us/what-we-do/capital/)
Thanks again, so HNA owns the lease on at least on QF A330...

Chocks Away
4th Feb 2019, 07:08
E190's? The Townsville refueller tells me three are turning up at Cobham/Perth, shortly.

The Bullwinkle
4th Feb 2019, 09:56
Which doesnít make any sense - and therefore itís probably true! If it doesnít make sense, Virgin will do it.

So true! :ok:

TBM-Legend
4th Feb 2019, 10:35
Cobham are in the market right now for some Q400's for WA

Berealgetreal
4th Feb 2019, 23:38
Sounds like the VA leasing arrangements are about to get a tad more expensive. Better start looking to somewhere else to farm out mainline flying. How long before we see VARA on ML-SY-ML?

ebt
5th Feb 2019, 03:25
Thanks for that. Anybody know anything else about this company? I see QF lease at least one 330 off them...

All five are owned by Avolon, with some showing under the trustee (Wells Fargo) which I suspect is because they are part of an ABS deal. From that data I see, they are in storage in Nashville and scheduled to be bought by Falko (former BAE Systems leasing arm). An earlier lot of ex-VA 190s was bought by Nordic Aviation Capital, and a few have gone across to Airlink in South Africa. Incidentally, Nordic have about a dozen 190s in storage that could be activated easily enough, along with a sh**load of ATRs which I am sure they could offer at a "great" rate to JB, if he is allowed to get his chequebook back.

VH-FTS
5th Feb 2019, 04:04
So no one sees the share purchases as a way of ensuring future spare parts for the Network F100s?

geeup
5th Feb 2019, 09:05
Network Alliance merger will be the future.
Refleet to A320

Going Nowhere
5th Feb 2019, 09:44
Maybe;
Alliance to stick to the Fokker
Network to move to all A320

A320's to spread around the country just like the 717's have.

The Bullwinkle
5th Feb 2019, 11:18
How long before we see VARA on ML-SY-ML?

Not long I suspect.
Pretty sure they’re already doing ML-AD-ML.

VH DSJ
5th Feb 2019, 12:04
How long before we see VARA on ML-SY-ML?

VARA is already doing PER-ADL-PER using the Fokker 100

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-fnj#1f6664bb

Icarus2001
5th Feb 2019, 21:40
So what sort of IFE can the business traveller expect on a Fokker 100? Doing PER-ADL-PER or MEL-SY-MEL.

wishiwasupthere
5th Feb 2019, 21:52
VARA has been operating an A320 out of Melbourne over the past week. PER-KAL-MEL, then a few of MEL-ADL-MEL before going back to PER.

Transition Layer
6th Feb 2019, 00:13
VARA has also been running the 320 PER-DRW-PER, effectively handing the Business Class market on that route on a platter to QF.


So what sort of IFE can the business traveller expect on a Fokker 100? Doing PER-ADL-PER or MEL-SY-MEL

Hah! Good one

regional_flyer
6th Feb 2019, 04:22
So what sort of IFE can the business traveller expect on a Fokker 100? Doing PER-ADL-PER or MEL-SY-MEL.

Having flown the VARA F100 several times recently PER-ADL, it has the same BYOD streaming IFE system as the 737s. Only, a lot less reliable.

splat72
6th Feb 2019, 10:46
The IFE system for the F100 is called Blue box from memory it was introduced by Air Niugini
Standard BYOD system thatís cheap to install and I believe works well.

AerialPerspective
6th Feb 2019, 14:10
This could be a good thing for VA, if they get someone who knows the they are doing they could easily expand VARA to replace them.

You mean buy all the aeroplanes back that they retired and re-hire all the staff they let go... seriously, I have no idea why the mail room boy bought SkyWest... it was like buying a house then demolishing everything except the garage and living in that...

AerialPerspective
6th Feb 2019, 14:15
This is there to leverage the network guys, who leverage the Jetstar guys who leverage the qantas guys.

It also looks like they are building up a national fifo operation. They will end up with pretty much all the fokkers in the world. Netlance will also be big enough to take on 320s from JQ as they reach the end of their high utilisation life.

It could be a formidable operation if merged with sunstate, eastern and eventually the cobham airline division.

It will also pincer VA who use alliance as a stop gap to cover network shortages.

Interesting times.

I actually wonder if with the 717s maintenance going offshore and the aeroplanes getting older if this isn't a pre-cursor to giving Cobham the flick and offloading the 717s (given the 71s are younger possibly but I think with Alliance, QF must have access to more F100s now than it has 717s...). This would standardise the fleet to 787, A330, 737, F100, Dash8... maybe not but it is certainly a possibility.

AerialPerspective
6th Feb 2019, 14:26
VARA has been operating an A320 out of Melbourne over the past week. PER-KAL-MEL, then a few of MEL-ADL-MEL before going back to PER.

I think that's KGI if you're talking about Kalgoorlie. Just sayin'

wishiwasupthere
6th Feb 2019, 23:36
No, I’m talking about the VARA flight that goes from Perth to Melbourne, via Kaltag in Alaska. Just sayin’.

AerialPerspective
7th Feb 2019, 01:58
No, Iím talking about the VARA flight that goes from Perth to Melbourne, via Kaltag in Alaska. Just sayiní.

LOL... That's funny, I'll pay that...

longlegs
8th Feb 2019, 09:36
The ACCC is investigating Qantas’ acquisition of a 19.9 per cent stake in Alliance Airlines, to assess whether there has been a breach of section 50 of the Competition and Consumer Act.

https://www.accc.gov.au/public-registers/mergers-registers/public-informal-merger-reviews/qantas-airways-ltd-acquisition-of-199-interest-in-alliance-aviation-services-ltdQantas Airways Ltd - acquisition of 19.9% interest in Alliance Aviation Services LtdStatus:
Under consideration
Industry:
Aviation
Commenced public review:
7 February 2019Acquirer(s)

Qantas Airways Limited

Target(s)

Alliance Aviation Services Ltd

Summary Investigation of Qantas' completed acquisition of a 19.9 per cent interest in Alliance Airlines.Market inquiriesThe ACCC is investigating Qantas’ acquisition of a 19.9 per cent stake in Alliance Airlines, to assess whether there has been a breach of section 50 of the Competition and Consumer Act. The issues on which the ACCC will focus, and seek submissions, will be detailed in a market inquiry letter that will be published on this public register shortly. The due date for submissions will be 4 March 2019.

The ACCC will not provide a provisional decision date, as we do not generally publish provisional decision dates when investigating completed acquisitions.

If you have any queries about this matter or wish to make a submission, please contact [email protected], John Rouw (03) 9290 1402 or Andrew Mahony on (03) 9290 1983.TimelineDateEvent07/02/2019ACCC commenced investigation.04/03/2019Closing date for submissions.Project staff

John Rouw
Andrew Mahony

Contact [email protected]

Mr Google Head
8th Feb 2019, 11:51
Theyíre probably working on the theory that forgiveness is easier than permission

4 Holer
8th Feb 2019, 14:00
Plus Shorten should be in in May and Albo would think its a great idea..... so they will get the lot in the end. AUS the Island with no competition at any level or any industry excellent.

Rated De
8th Feb 2019, 21:00
Qantas won't be too bothered.

Rocket Rod Sims despite dismissing the 'terminal decline' argument (which Qantas used as reason for an exemption to Competition Law) nonetheless approved a captive 'alliance' between Qantas and Emirates granting them an 'exemption'.
What 'marginal material benefits' were supposedly bestowed on Australian consumers was left scantily detailed.
Light handed regulation by Australia's regulators shows impressive results, the Hayne Royal Commission making headlines worldwide and 76 recommendations, somehow expects the same regulators and their light touch that got Australia into the mess will miraculously also fix the problem.

Rest assured Rocket Rod is on it, if not already a member of the Chairman's lounge, an invite should ensure the right answer...
Soft corruption is a beautiful thing.

TBM-Legend
8th Feb 2019, 21:50
Don't think for one minute that the QF bunker wouldn't have anticipated this before their move...

angryrat
9th Feb 2019, 01:17
Plus Shorten should be in in May and Albo would think its a great idea..... so they will get the lot in the end. AUS the Island with no competition at any level or any industry excellent.Wow, throwing rocks from a country that is run by a TV host and will bailout their banks, all the while letting the guys that caused the GFC to sail off into the sunset with a huge chunk of the bailout money as bonuses. No country is perfect but your bitterness towards Australia is not healthy.

Oriana
10th Feb 2019, 00:49
Angry - he ain't that far off the mark, actually.

4 Holer
10th Feb 2019, 02:20
Not bitter just pointing out you have fallen into deep socialism in AUS.... Government controls everything including when and where you can have a beer.... Naughty boys driving at 65 in 60 zone here is your picture we took while monitoring you of the offense, give the government $225. Sad really bring back the 80/90s be free again.

Trump maybe a nutter in your view but you can do here as you please and things are good.

Popgun
10th Feb 2019, 02:54
Trump maybe a nutter in your view but you can do here as you please and things are good.

Hahahahaha LOL!!! Best laugh I've had in quite a while. Yes, Australia has certainly become a lot more nanny state than it was...

But...you can "do as you please" in America? Hardly...That certainly was not my experience having lived and worked there for many years before and after 911.

Anyway, with the comedy show over...back to the topic...

This does look like yet another move to establish a further QF pilot group that can be leveraged and used for industrial relations purposes.

This is one area where the Virgin pilots have been savvy and fortunate enough to establish a group wide list. I think its much too late and probably impossible now for QF group pilots to achieve. I'd love to be wrong.

PG

Berealgetreal
10th Feb 2019, 04:17
bring back the 80/90s be free again.

Spot on, donít recognise the place anymore. At least there was an identity back then.

Berealgetreal
10th Feb 2019, 04:35
Group list main beneficiaries are super senior or junior pilots. I guess another benefit might be during a downturn as mentioned for the F50 Pilots at VARA. Sorry for the drift.

coaldemon
10th Feb 2019, 10:02
This one looks like a business to business proposition and nothing to do with much else. From a strategic point of view it makes sense as a blocker.

Oriana
10th Feb 2019, 11:42
Actually, 4HOLER you are off the mark. That's not called socialism, that's called fascism.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
10th Feb 2019, 12:08
Socialism is more like where you use lots of public money to enable inefficient enterprises to make crappy products.
Such as the US government propping up GM and Chrysler to the tune of nearly $100 billion.

Scooter Rassmussin
10th Feb 2019, 22:37
How is Virgin group allowed to operate domestically when they are predominantly foreign owned ?

Beer Baron
10th Feb 2019, 22:47
How is Virgin group allowed to operate domestically when they are predominantly foreign owned ?
Because there are no restrictions on foreign airlines operating domestic services in Australia. Thatís why Tiger were able to start when entirely foreign owned.

The real question should be, how is Virgin group allowed to operate internationally from Australia when they are predominantly foreign owned?
That is supposed to be restricted to Australian carriers but cunning ownership structures seem to be able to side-step such rules.

Air Ace
10th Feb 2019, 23:05
The Tom-Toms tell me that Austrian Airlines may have sold 25 million shares to QF for $2.40 each, which they acquired in part exchange for the Fokker airframes and parts, with a share face value at that time of 64 cents each.

Mac Bank may know the details. :E

Nice win, eh? :}

ebt
11th Feb 2019, 00:29
Qantas won't be too bothered.

Rocket Rod Sims despite dismissing the 'terminal decline' argument (which Qantas used as reason for an exemption to Competition Law) nonetheless approved a captive 'alliance' between Qantas and Emirates granting them an 'exemption'.
What 'marginal material benefits' were supposedly bestowed on Australian consumers was left scantily detailed.
Light handed regulation by Australia's regulators shows impressive results, the Hayne Royal Commission making headlines worldwide and 76 recommendations, somehow expects the same regulators and their light touch that got Australia into the mess will miraculously also fix the problem.

Rest assured Rocket Rod is on it, if not already a member of the Chairman's lounge, an invite should ensure the right answer...
Soft corruption is a beautiful thing.

I wouldn't be so sure. ACCC first proposed rejecting the VARA-Alliance tie-up, and Alliance had to bend over backwards and get other competitors to say that the contract charter market is still competitive with one less airline there to get it across the line. If only to be consistent, the ACCC will put this one through a lot of scrutiny, and Virgin will be pushing hard to make sure Qantas gets blocked from taking control.

hoss
11th Feb 2019, 02:03
Just my 2 cents worth, isnít Alliance a basket case, a ticking time bomb.

Let QF have it, Joyce obviously needs drama in his life.

Sure there might be some short term pain for VAA but it would serve as a healthy reality check for the industry in general.

Icarus2001
11th Feb 2019, 02:09
Because there are no restrictions on foreign airlines operating domestic services in Australia.

Not really. Virgin Australia is an Australian company. If there were no restrictions SIA would be in here tomorrow, as would Air Asia, Lion Air etc.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-04/international-airlines-allowed-fly-domestic-routes-reduce-fares/9617598

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/qantas-warns-against-allowing-foreign-carriers-to-fly-domestic-routes-20170417-gvm61u.html

http://theconversation.com/explainer-cabotage-and-why-foreign-airlines-dont-fly-domestic-42350

Torres
11th Feb 2019, 04:30
Just my 2 cents worth, isnít Alliance a basket case, ticking time bomb.

I doubt that comment would be worth 2 cents? Qantas paid $60 mill for their 20% indicating a market capitalization of $300 mill. AQZ shares today up 1.43% to $2.50.

Unless you know something the financial world doesn't, Alliance does not appear to be a "ticking time bomb".

Ken Borough
11th Feb 2019, 06:08
Virgin Australia is an Australian company

Really? It might be incorporated in Australia but what does its share register look like? It's dominated by foreign entities: five foreign investors, including Etihad, Singapore Airlines and Richard Branson, own more than 90% of Virgin Australia. How can one define that company as being "Australian"? :ugh:

Icarus2001
11th Feb 2019, 06:46
How can one define that company as being "Australian"? :ugh:

I don't define them that way, the Australian government does. They are an Australian company, domiciled in Australia, operating from bases in Australia, employing mostly Australian nationals on an Australian AOC (or four...). If they ever manage to make a profit they will pay tax in Australia. Their share holders however are overseas entities (mostly).

How can one not understand that? :ugh:

Edited to add: Oh yeah, Qantas still call Australia 51% home.

Gate_15L
11th Feb 2019, 07:07
51% home.....

TBM-Legend
11th Feb 2019, 07:10
What's the argument for the Qantas 51% then given its biggest competitor is 90% foreign owned? One rule for all I thought. VA situation would not work in USA eg.

PS: Nice video but 51% beats 10% by any measure...

Berealgetreal
11th Feb 2019, 07:51
Employing about 10,000 Australians. They needed foreign money to keep the business going and keep 10,000 people employed against a much larger and established competitor who has had the market to themselves for decades. Maybe Virgin could have a greater Australian ownership if QF and VA split the government contracts say 50/50. Easy to ride in on the high horse.

Alliance is hardly a ticking time bomb, exactly the opposite.
'

TBM-Legend
11th Feb 2019, 09:03
Split the Govt contracts equals another 'work for the dole' issue! It is a competitive market. The Mail Room Clerk promised to take the game to QF. What happened? Opportunities lost I'd say. Many good girls and boys at VA . Lions led by sheep methinks!

Ken Borough
11th Feb 2019, 09:55
Hey Icarus! I refuse to argue with fools so I won't argue with you. I think you've been flying too close to the sun. :ok:

Icarus2001
11th Feb 2019, 10:13
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x224/tenor_9c7e14ebfbd76da470a121f4f0708a0685465889.gif

Goat Whisperer
11th Feb 2019, 11:11
What if Qantasí plan isnít to own Alliance, but to prevent Virgin from owning it?

If the ACCC knocks back Qantas on competition reduction then it would make it virtually impossible for Virgin to argue that they should be allowed to buy Alliance.

If the ACCC allowed the takeover that too would stick a branch in Virginís spokes.

Gate_15L
11th Feb 2019, 16:19
What if Qantasí plan isnít to own Alliance, but to prevent Virgin from owning it?

If the ACCC knocks back Qantas on competition reduction then it would make it virtually impossible for Virgin to argue that they should be allowed to buy Alliance.

If the ACCC allowed the takeover that too would stick a branch in Virginís spokes.

well, if Virgin were sticking to their playbook, theyíll just buy 20% of Alliance on the market....

at least theyíd used to board meetings with strange bedfellows....

Air Ace
11th Feb 2019, 20:01
Qantas indicated in their Press Release that they were not seeking a Board seat in Alliance ... at least not at this time.

"Strategic Investment" waiting for an appropriate time to act?

ebt
12th Feb 2019, 02:24
Qantas indicated in their Press Release that they were not seeking a Board seat in Alliance ... at least not at this time.

"Strategic Investment" waiting for an appropriate time to act?

Which would be fine, except that they made clear that they plan to take control of Alliance if/when given the green light by the ACCC. Not wanting a board seat "yet" is their way of being able to argue that they are not exerting control over a major supplier of their competitor, but there is no way in hell they are going to let the board stay like that if their shareholding is allowed to grow. That's also why Qantas have said nada to Alliance's management before, during or after the raid on their shares.

Qantas picked the right time, waiting for Austrian's lock-up period on its 9% stake to expire. Before the sale, Austrian was the second largest shareholder after a mystery investor through HSBC Nominees. And for them $60 million is change that fell down the back of the couch, while allowing them to snooker Virgin who cannot afford to get into a bidding war, or if they do will end up paying over the odds for it. Those with longer memories than mine will remember that QF and AN did that over Kendell's a long time ago, which saw AN win, but then ultimately lose for a whole bunch of reasons. For the sake of the industry, let's hope that bit of history doesn't repeat.

SYDnewby
13th Feb 2019, 02:55
just got this email 2nd hand from ACCC ...................................................The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) is investigating Qantasí acquisition of a 19.9% stake in Alliance Airlines, to assess its potential impact on competition and whether there has been a breach of section 50 of the Competition and Consumer Act. Attached to this email is a market inquiry letter that provides further details of the acquisition and questions that you may wish to address. In particular, we are seeking your views on:∑ whether Qantas and Alliance Airlines compete closely, and how the acquisition affects the incentive to compete∑ the impact of the acquisition on prices or service quality∑ impacts relating to the Virgin Australia-Alliance Airlines Charter Alliance Agreement. The letter can also be accessed on the .ACCC mergers register. Please note that comments and written submissions are requested by Monday, 4 March 2019. Please be assured that we will treat any written or oral submissions on a confidential basis. Please feel free to forward this email to any other person you consider may be interested. If you have any questions in relation to this matter, please contact me using the details below or John Rouw on 03 9290 1402.

Section28- BE
13th Feb 2019, 10:12
What 'ebt' said..............

Rgds
S28

4 Holer
13th Feb 2019, 15:11
If Virgin had half a brain they would go buy 19.9% of alliance tomorrow morning and advise ASX and ACCC they want to buy 50%.................... Maybe thats to simple for Straya.

Forced JV with QF excellent.

4 Holer
13th Feb 2019, 23:53
Virgin should then buy the shares available say 5% and start jumping up and down as a minority shareholder..... in the end agree to hold same shares amount as QF and the ACCC goes away. You know the Government will let QF buy Alliance they grounded Ansett/Tiger the list goes on etc etc to help QF so as if they won't let this share purchase by QF proceed.

Have a go, fight like an old school Aussie....

ebt
14th Feb 2019, 07:40
Virgin should then buy the shares available say 5% and start jumping up and down as a minority shareholder..... in the end agree to hold same shares amount as QF and the ACCC goes away. You know the Government will let QF buy Alliance they grounded Ansett/Tiger the list goes on etc etc to help QF so as if they won't let this share purchase by QF proceed.

Have a go, fight like an old school Aussie....

If they were to buy a stake, they would want to take at least 10%, which would stop Qantas getting to 90% and thus being able to force a compulsory acquisition of Alliance. Or they could put their chequebook away, and just lobby the ACCC hard to make sure that Qantas can't gain control of Alliance. Much cheaper option, and I imagine Scurrah would want to tread carefully once he's in the hot seat.

Section28- BE
14th Feb 2019, 10:53
What 'ebt' said, .... again!!!!

Rgds
S28

meatbomb01
22nd Apr 2019, 08:38
Any update on QF's interests in Alliance? Anyone know how long the ACCC process normally takes?

Rated De
22nd Apr 2019, 09:46
Any update on QF's interests in Alliance? Anyone know how long the ACCC process normally takes?



It allegedly depends entirely on whether the Chairman's lounge membership of Rodney is up for renewal...

GA Driver
22nd Apr 2019, 10:06
It allegedly depends entirely on whether the Chairman's lounge membership of Rodney is up for renewal...

I think Virgins past experience on the topic might just thwart that well worn route.