380 to 350?

[ironbutt57]

Interesting....


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-confirms-talks-with-emirates-over-a380-contra-455446/

[Dropp the Pilot]

It appears that an airline can't make a business plan which is dependant on an airplane that cannot possibly be operated at a profit. Who could have known?

[ironbutt57]

It appears that an airline can't make a business plan which is dependant on an airplane that cannot possibly be operated at a profit. Who could have known?

hmmmm...ya think?? Im wondering if Airbus is trying to re-market the ones due for delivery down the street....piss out the immediate fire just now, sort the other one later

[ucankedi]

I don’t understand where this ‘unprofitable’ idea coming from. It is profitable if you use it what it was designed for, which Emirates is doing.

A380 is designed for a major hub airline. If you buy a few for prestige, without an actual operable plan (Malaysian, British, etc) then yes, it is not profitable. It has nothing to do with the aircraft itself. It has everything to do with the operation.

For example: ATR-72 is profitable for regional short haul flights; not so much if you try to use it for oceanic flights.

[ironbutt57]

true, for unsubsidized airlines indeed it's not profitable...regardless, it looks like the "salvation order" placed by EK is now on the rocks again, and so is the A380 program

[Joker11]

Whats happening with the 787s?

[tdracer]

More information here:

Airbus Confirms Discussions With Emirates About A380 Order | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/airbus-confirms-discussions-emirates-about-a380-order?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20190201_AW-05_76&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPEN1000002544393&utm_campaign=18344&utm_medium=email&elq2=c141888698bf45cea00b01549210378b)

Sounds like a lot of the problem is unhappiness with the performance of the Trent 900, and Rolls unwilling to do much about it.

[Dropp the Pilot]

It's true that the Trents are part of the problem. If you removed two of them, removed the idiotic superstructure for the second floor and capped the seats at about 430 it would be a pure winner.

Like a 777.

[Tom Sawyer]

More information here:

Airbus Confirms Discussions With Emirates About A380 Order | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/airbus-confirms-discussions-emirates-about-a380-order?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20190201_AW-05_76&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPEN1000002544393&utm_campaign=18344&utm_medium=email&elq2=c141888698bf45cea00b01549210378b)

Sounds like a lot of the problem is unhappiness with the performance of the Trent 900, and Rolls unwilling to do much about it.

I would think Rolls have their hands full;
Trent 700 still in production for A330
Trent 7000 ramping up as A330NEO production increases.
Trent 1000 known issues still to be revised.
Trent XWB for A350 in full swing by now I would think.
Trent 800 gone like the Trent 500, but still supported along with quite a few RB211's still in service.
Development of next gen "intelligent" engine for rumoured Boeing B797/NMA and next round of new design aircraft.

Last thing they need is to start tweaking/redesigning/recertifying for what is more than likely a limited production run of aTrent 900 "-X".

[General Dogsbody]

The other Rumor is that they are looking at 20 more 777X and cancelling the 787 order..

[skeggman]

I don’t understand where this ‘unprofitable’ idea coming from. It is profitable if you use it what it was designed for, which Emirates is doing.

A380 is designed for a major hub airline. If you buy a few for prestige, without an actual operable plan (Malaysian, British, etc) then yes, it is not profitable. It has nothing to do with the aircraft itself. It has everything to do with the operation.

For example: ATR-72 is profitable for regional short haul flights; not so much if you try to use it for oceanic flights.
A380 is not now and has never been profitable for EK. For them it was, and still is, all about image.

I am ex EK, not a pilot, but a VP in IT. I was emailed every week the loads of all aircraft outbound from DXB. For an A380 to break even, it had to have 82% loads, most were around 77% with quite a few less than 60%.

I flew many times in business class where out of the 76 seats available, only 10 or so were occupied.

[skeggman]

Replying to my own post here. "Emirates Airlines" haven't been profitable for many years. It's all creative accounting that makes them look like they are. Dnata makes all the money. Carry a few 1's and 0's across the balance sheet ("charging" dnata $$$$$$ to fly on EK) and it all looks good.

Glad I got out when I did. Toxic culture, toxic place. Too many people sucked into it and living with blinkers on.

[PanAmFalcon]

Regardless of what you say, still one of the best airlines to fly with. Recently flew with Lufthansa j class and was underwhelmed

[safelife]

...but their business class is full and making profit.

[sheikhthecamel]

A380 is not now and has never been profitable for EK. For them it was, and still is, all about image.

I am ex EK, not a pilot, but a VP in IT. I was emailed every week the loads of all aircraft outbound from DXB. For an A380 to break even, it had to have 82% loads, most were around 77% with quite a few less than 60%.

I flew many times in business class where out of the 76 seats available, only 10 or so were occupied.

Curious - Is the 82% passenger load factor figure an aggregate across all A380 routes on an annual basis? I would think that an A380 on a DXB - JED flight would have a different load factor break-even than DXB - LHR. Also it must surely be greatly dependent on how many bums are on the fancy seats upstairs?

[skeggman]

Curious - Is the 82% passenger load factor figure an aggregate across all A380 routes on an annual basis? I would think that an A380 on a DXB - JED flight would have a different load factor break-even than DXB - LHR. Also it must surely be greatly dependent on how many bums are on the fancy seats upstairs?

Yes, that was aggregated across the fleet on a weekly basis, and took into account staff, fuel, maintenance, taxes, etc. And was usually based on economy being at capacity, and the rest (up to the magical 82%) across the top deck.

Obviously not an exact science, but was used as a rough guide as to what routes were profitable (and could possibly take an extra flight) and which ones to either cut completely or swap for a 777.

[chuboy]

Any airline that can turn a profit on a route with an A380 will be able to make at least as much with a new-gen twin. So it seems as if closing the A380 production line is really a win-win-win for Airbus/Rolls/operators.

Surely there has been a discussion of some kind involving an A350 customer just up the road?

[cerbus]

Any airline that can turn a profit on a route with an A380 will be able to make at least as much with a new-gen twin. So it seems as if closing the A380 production line is really a win-win-win for Airbus/Rolls/operators.

Surely there has been a discussion of some kind involving an A350 customer just up the road?


With our incredibly low cost structure,ie Slave Labour surely the 380 has a much better chance of being profitable here then at any other airline.

[sheikhthecamel]

Yes, that was aggregated across the fleet on a weekly basis, and took into account staff, fuel, maintenance, taxes, etc. And was usually based on economy being at capacity, and the rest (up to the magical 82%) across the top deck.

Obviously not an exact science, but was used as a rough guide as to what routes were profitable (and could possibly take an extra flight) and which ones to either cut completely or swap for a 777.

Sounds like EK are between a rock and a hard place with their A380 fleet. If they can't get the fuel efficiency improvements from RR, other aircraft in the fleet are likely to be better suited to some routes. Also, not sure how much of the fleet is on operating leases, and how much is on the balance sheet - but with re-sale values sure to fall if Airbus pulls the plug, they may have to review their depreciation figures.

[Buckshot]

Everything that's old is new again?

https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-production/boeing-787-deal-in-jeopardy-too-as-emirates-weighs-killing-a380-for-a330neo/

[Commander Taco]

really a win-win-win for Airbus/Rolls/operators.
Indeed - a win-win-win after big losses-losses-losses!

[Joker11]

30 A350-900 and 40 A330-900neos.

[Odins Raven]

30 A350-900 and 40 A330-900neos.

A380 production to stop in its entirety from 2021. They’ll still be a common but sort of unique sight at many airports for a good few years yet.

[Adam Barfy]

A380 production to stop in its entirety from 2021. They’ll still be a common but sort of unique sight at many airports for a good few years yet.

Especially at Tarbes Airport.......


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/c55e5a97_5bc8_491f_ae80_02e3c93dbdb8_64b4427995dcc817526d296 c1a292f8934de740d.jpeg
Tarbes. Grounded A380s etc

[PanAmFalcon]

Goodbye sky bars and showers

[glofish]

Goodbye sky bars and showers
Any airline can fit a wide body with a lounge and a shower, if they wish to make it a (mostly free-two or upgraded) passengers darling but a commercial flop.
I don't know how popular it was to cut the Y bag max weight by 5kgs to compensate the huge over-burn of the +/- 5 tons of the F bathrooms ......

[halas]

Fuel burn per shower per flight per usage.

Salak is taboo.

halas