B717 Heavy Maintenance

[LeadSled]

Folks,
I am a little surprised that closure of B717 heavy maintenance at Canberra, and its move to Singapore seems to have gone unnoticed.
Apparently about 40 redundancies of skilled/licensed labor reported.
As always, the terrible labor productivity, brought about by ratbag CASA regulation, working in lockstep with equally ratbag award demarcation, is a major culprit.
And, if you think Singapore is "cheap labor", you obviously don't know much about Singapore.
The "Australian Way" triumphs again.
Tootle pip!!

[TBM-Legend]

The over regulated sheltered workshop syndrome strikes again.

[Rated De]

Folks,
I am a little surprised that closure of B717 heavy maintenance at Canberra, and its move to Singapore seems to have gone unnoticed.
Apparently about 40 redundancies of skilled/licensed labor reported.
As always, the terrible labor productivity, brought about by ratbag CASA regulation, working in lockstep with equally ratbag award demarcation, is a major culprit.
And, if you think Singapore is "cheap labor", you obviously don't know much about Singapore.
The "Australian Way" triumphs again.
Tootle pip!!

Penny wise, pound stupid.

Control of engineering work process used to be considered strategic.
To support the assertion of 'uneconomic' Qantas progressively shrunk its heavy maintenance in Australia reducing the fleet to arrive at a non-sustainable cost base. That the infrastructure was largely a result of the taxpayer benevolence, wasn't noticed. That Qantas 'competitively tendered' with John Holland whilst convicted felon former CFO Gregg sat incredibly in both camps seemed not to worry anybody.

Once the facility was closed and all heavy maintenance transferred offshore, a strange thing happened.

The overseas facilities reported 'increased workload' and less availability; it became commonplace for 'customer aircraft' like those of the airline Qantas, to slip down the priority list.

With newly minted MBA running around minimising cost, at least in the short term, this remains the standard play book.
Given the relative size of the 717 fleet and the declining numbers in operation worldwide, maintenance may become harder to find..

[travelator]

Given the relative size of the 717 fleet and the rapidly declining numbers in operation worldwide, maintenance may become harder to find..

Pretty sure that every single 717 built is still in continuous service. There may be a couple that have been neglected and no operators want to touch them though.

[Rated De]

Pretty sure that every single 717 built is still in continuous service. There may be a couple that have been neglected and no operators want to touch them though.


Thank you for correcting the oversight!
Had meant to edit the 'rapid decline' in numbers.

Delta airlines have leased well over 50% of the operating aircraft and have indicated their plans, with orders to replace the aging fleet. Almost the entire remaining complement are operated by US Carriers, thus it remains an interesting question as to how long the maintenance will be supported outside the USA when the only customer in Asia Pacific is Qantas?
Perhaps Qantas will shove a whole bunch of JQ A320 at them too?

[markis10]

Pretty sure that every single 717 built is still in continuous service. There may be a couple that have been neglected and no operators want to touch them though.

There is about 12 stored inc 1 scrapped (the first one)

https://www.airfleets.net/listing/b717-4-statasc.htm

[717tech]

Feel sorry for the families that are being disrupted for the second time in recent years.

[LeadSled]

Feel sorry for the families that are being disrupted for the second time in recent years.

Very sad ( and expensive) for those who uprooted families to move to the Peoples Popular and Democratic Green Republic of ACT in the reasonable expectation of long term employment.
Tootle pip!!

[Rated De]

Very sad ( and expensive) for those who uprooted families to move to the Peoples Popular and Democratic Green Republic of ACT in the reasonable expectation of long term employment.
Tootle pip!!

Yes as humans are simply impersonal units of labour cost, the spreadsheet records nothing other than legal minimum enforceable amount this unit cost must be paid.
Qantas taking the unparalleled step of grounding their fleet and locking out their staff on a flimsy and curiously unchallenged pretext, broke forever any semblance of trust.

[Redpanda]

What else would you expect from QF management???

[bazza stub]

Very sad ( and expensive) for those who uprooted families to move to the Peoples Popular and Democratic Green Republic of ACT in the reasonable expectation of long term employment.
Tootle pip!!

Aren't Qlink doing the heavy maintenance? I thought it was just Dash 8 guys who got a crash course on the 717 and who were already in Can'tberra.

I still wouldn't put it past QF!

[RickNRoll]

Very sad ( and expensive) for those who uprooted families to move to the Peoples Popular and Democratic Green Republic of ACT in the reasonable expectation of long term employment.
Tootle pip!!

This has nothing to do with the Canberra Government or the people who vote therein. It is a purely "Capitalist" driven decision.

[VH DSJ]

I would have thought sending the B717 across to Perth would have been a better solution with lots of experienced LAMES there compared with Singapore. Can't recall ever seeing a B717 in South East Asia other than a handful at Bangkok Airways many years ago, perhaps?

[LostontheLOC]

With first hand knowledge and experience with ST doing work on aircraft I am very concerned about what's about to happen.

I hope the LAME's are ready to put in extra work and hours to bring the aircraft back up to standard when they hit Australian shores again.

[Blitzkrieger]

Who's LAMEs?

[LostontheLOC]

Cobham and Qlinks.

[tfx]

Off shore maintenance? Bad idea. You spend a million dollars here in Australia it remains in the Australian system and goes into the various things Australians buy, including air fares. So you eventually get it back. Do the job overseas, the money is gone forever.
Not only that, as someone mentioned, off-shore you pretty much have to have an inspector behind every man. They just don't care. When the ship comes back you will have to spend many hours getting it back up to scratch.

[gtseraf]

Off shore maintenance? Bad idea. You spend a million dollars here in Australia it remains in the Australian system and goes into the various things Australians buy, including air fares. So you eventually get it back. Do the job overseas, the money is gone forever.
Not only that, as someone mentioned, off-shore you pretty much have to have an inspector behind every man. They just don't care. When the ship comes back you will have to spend many hours getting it back up to scratch.

That comment makes so much sense, just don't let logic and good sense get in the way of a short term money saving idea, which will probably only secure someone a healthy bonus and achieve very little positive apart from that.

[LeadSled]

This has nothing to do with the Canerra Government or the people who vote therein. It is a purely "Capitalist" driven decision.

RollNRick,
Bit touchy there, aren't you?? I didn't suggest it did, although quite how you have them there, ( or any large aircraft) despite said ACT being a "nuclear free zone", I don't know.
Tootle pip!!

[AerialPerspective]

Yes as humans are simply impersonal units of labour cost, the spreadsheet records nothing other than legal minimum enforceable amount this unit cost must be paid.
Qantas taking the unparalleled step of grounding their fleet and locking out their staff on a flimsy and curiously unchallenged pretext, broke forever any semblance of trust.

I remember when that happened and Keating tore into the Gillard Government... asked what he would have done... he said "I certainly wouldn't have referred it to the FWC for mediation... I would have just let it stay shut down for a few days or a week and let the CEO swing in the breeze for a while and I think you'd find after that time, there'd be no more dispute and no more AJ" He said the Labor Government (at the time) had "...played right into Joyce's hands when it should have given him NO comfort at all, let his little strategy collapse around him fixing the problem once and for all..."

I take it from that Mr K is no fan of AJ.

[LeadSled]

That comment makes so much sense, just don't let logic and good sense get in the way of a short term money saving idea, which will probably only secure someone a healthy bonus and achieve very little positive apart from that.

In the real world, the $$ quantum difference is quite substantial, not a couple of percent, and the major issue is regulations/awards working hand in glove to produce world leading lack of productivity ---- solve that problem and heavy maintenance will in large lumps come back on-shore.
Hoping to see contract maintenance here again is probably a dream too far, sadly.
I am right on the airline's side on this one, we have lost tens of thousands of skilled jobs offshore thanks to the ratbag regulations.
The cost disparity is now so great that even top end GA aircraft are going elsewhere for major checks.
As I have often remarked, Qantas has not built the newest and arguably biggest hanger at Los Angeles just to park their aircraft out of the SoCal sunshine.
Tootle pip!!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Regulations? Isn’t it a lack of regulatory spine that has allowed big business in this country run amok? As for awards, why is it inconceivable to some people that the coal face should be remunerated for the value they bring to the company. 100’s of millions in hardware and possibly billions in human liability and the coal face is overpaid, give me strength!

[AerialPerspective]

Regulations? Isn’t it a lack of regulatory spine that has allowed big business in this country run amok? As for awards, why is it inconceivable to some people that the coal face should be remunerated for the value they bring to the company. 100’s of millions in hardware and possibly billions in human liability and the coal face is overpaid, give me strength!

I remember at AN, there was a $245,000 Honda NSX in the staff car park... everyone assumed it belonged to a pilot... Nope, an engineer... the fact that someone who does what is in effect a process job could afford a quarter of a million dollar sports car means there is at least a possibility they are overpaid... and that was 20 years ago...

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Aerialperspective, who’s business is it what car someone drives? You don’t know what their sircumstances are, whether they were particularly astute at investing their income and were enjoying the spoils, or if they inherited a sum of money from a relative etc. The fact that an expensive car was noticed in a car park somewhere means nothing.

The problem with with this country is that people would rather see an other human being held back rather than seeing them prosper, the politics of jealousy is a huge barrier to our national psyche.

Of shoring the most internal of an airlines organs is both dumb and unnecessary. The simple fact is this: all of our major airlines CAN do it here and still make MONEY. They CHOOSE to do it overseas because it DIVIDES the AUSTRALIAN workforce and makes way for greater PERSONAL gain for MANAGEMENT.

[AerialPerspective]

Aerialperspective, who’s business is it what car someone drives? You don’t know what their sircumstances are, whether they were particularly astute at investing their income and were enjoying the spoils, or if they inherited a sum of money from a relative etc. The fact that an expensive car was noticed in a car park somewhere means nothing.

The problem with with this country is that people would rather see an other human being held back rather than seeing them prosper, the politics of jealousy is a huge barrier to our national psyche.

Of shoring the most internal of an airlines organs is both dumb and unnecessary. The simple fact is this: all of our major airlines CAN do it here and still make MONEY. They CHOOSE to do it overseas because it DIVIDES the AUSTRALIAN workforce and makes way for greater PERSONAL gain for MANAGEMENT.


Well, thanks for that strident response. I never said we couldn't do maintenance here, etc. and in fact I think we SHOULD... I would state though that whenever QF 'off-shores' something it gets a world of criticism on here and in the press yet VA off shores virtually everything and not a peep.

OK, so in fact I DID know that person's circumstances and they DID pay for it out of wages. Everyone knows the engineers have had conditions over the years that any reasonable person would consider excessive. Please let's not pretend that the domestic airlines (both AN and TN) didn't just 'roll over' every time a strong union threatened industrial action and just upped the wages. Good luck to them, but your statement "the problem with this country is that people would rather see another human being held back" is utter rubbish... So, what you are saying is that EVERYONE in the country thinks that way??? Everyone is 100%... so you can't possibly know that.

It's not like you say... the tall poppy syndrome is very much a myth. Australians don't universally try to cut down someone who's done well. What they hate is people who get an advantage over others - people who the troops know are incompetent and yet still get promoted. Politicians who pontificate to everyone about doing the right thing then rort the system - that's not tall poppy syndrome, that's cutting someone down to size. As for the rest, what's wrong with this country, besides the 27 uninterrupted years of growth, amongst the largest pool of national savings in the world due to superannuation (now well in excess of annual GDP), one of the highest standards of living in the world, lowest infant mortality (with the exception of the indigenous population unfortunately), relatively low corruption, incredible mineral wealth and one of the lowest levels of debt as a % of GDP in the OECD. Every time someone starts a sentence with 'the problem with this country' I feel like suggesting they go and live in PNG or Libya or Iraq. Many of the 'problems' of this country are first world problems. The only serious problem in this country at the moment is wealth inequality... being facilitated by an incompetent government who only supports the management side of the equation. It is the main existential threat that could derail the system and make this an unfair country. No, we don't begrudge someone who got out there and through skill or entrepreneurial spirit or inspiration made a million... what we don't like and call out for what it is, is people who are overpaid and structure things to line their own pockets. There are people within every group that do it, not all, whether it be engineers or pilots in years gone by using their industrial strength to get more than perhaps they should or a conga-line of ramp workers lining up by a coffin and touching it so they can claim the coffin handling allowance. Nothing to do with people working hard and doing the right thing but those that are taking the p-ss are the ones that the general populace tends to want to cut down a peg or two.

Secondly, it doesn't matter a crap whether we think it's fair or not, if it costs more here than it does elsewhere (Is anyone seriously going to say that the only people in the world that can maintain aeroplanes are Australians... because that's a big statement, especially considering the bloody aeroplanes are BUILT by companies overseas). Despite that, I don't buy the argument that it's too expensive here because Germany is one of the most expensive places in the world but they do OK with high wages and still get plenty of business, so I'm FOR keeping the work here BUT the fact is that in the past elements of the workforce HAVE taken the p-ss and become paid quite beyond comparable outfits overseas. Anyone who doesn't think that's the case is living lala land or doesn't know the history. I WORKED in the industry during those years, I remember people walking out right before Easter or Xmas because someone looked sideways at them or because they wanted to launch a totally ludicrous wage claim. Problem now is that it has gone far to far the other way and now the management side have the upper hand. Typical of this is the BS that was fed to people by the government that THOUSANDS of small businesses would go broke if penalty rates weren't removed for hospitality. Well, they have been so 'small business' needs to explain to me why the local pub has the gall to charge a surcharge on public holidays when they don't have to pay penalties any more... I only mention that as an example of how BS takes over from rational argument.

Essentially, I think we agree on the on-shore maintenance issue but I'm not going to sit back and pretend everything's fine when there ARE people in the system who have been overpaid by a reasonable degree against comparable jobs elsewhere with the same skill and safety implications. That is PART of the problem. No argument for someone getting a fair wage for a fair days work but just saying that perhaps all those years when we KNOW unions featherbedded is why we have got to now.

[AerialPerspective]

In the real world, the $$ quantum difference is quite substantial, not a couple of percent, and the major issue is regulations/awards working hand in glove to produce world leading lack of productivity ---- solve that problem and heavy maintenance will in large lumps come back on-shore.
Hoping to see contract maintenance here again is probably a dream too far, sadly.
I am right on the airline's side on this one, we have lost tens of thousands of skilled jobs offshore thanks to the ratbag regulations.
The cost disparity is now so great that even top end GA aircraft are going elsewhere for major checks.
As I have often remarked, Qantas has not built the newest and arguably biggest hanger at Los Angeles just to park their aircraft out of the SoCal sunshine.
Tootle pip!!

I'm with you but I do think the balance has shifted a bit too far... but I managed union members (and I'm generally pro-union) but some of the claims were completely ludicrous. In also laugh when I hear the bleating about it somehow being safe to ONLY have the maintenance done here. Those that look back on the 'good old days' of QF forget that for quite a while after QF got their first 747-238Bs they were maintained by United Air Lines in San Francisco because the fleet wasn't large enough and the skill hadn't been developed yet... that reasoning was pretty much the same as the reasoning for keeping A380 maintenance off shore because of small fleet size. Back in the 70s is was logic, today it's blasphemy!!! Can't have it both ways.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

so in fact I DID know that person's circumstances and they DID pay for it out of wages.
So all the other $250k cars in the staff car park belonged to pilots. But that's ok, however God forbid anyone else structure their finances so that they could afford a nice toy too.
Everyone knows the engineers have had conditions over the years that any reasonable person would consider excessive. Please let's not pretend that the domestic airlines (both AN and TN) didn't just 'roll over' every time a strong union threatened industrial action and just upped the wages. Good luck to them, but your statement "the problem with this country is that people would rather see another human being held back" is utter rubbish... So, what you are saying is that EVERYONE in the country thinks that way??? Everyone is 100%... so you can't possibly know that.
But it appears you do.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

the tall poppy syndrome is very much a myth.

Everyone knows the engineers have had conditions over the years that any reasonable person would consider excessive.

You contradict yourself my friend.

Different people would describe “excessive” differently and traditionally in Australia anyone doing better than ones self is viewed with jealous suspicion. Again, what one drives or where they live is of no concern to anyone else.

Every time certain expertise have their “excessive” salaries driven backwards, the airline expects more of the same next time. Offshoring is just an extension of this, it’s not a necessity, it’s purely based in greed. Australian engineers are as good as anyone else and Australian airlines should be prioritising Australian jobs in Australia.

[LeadSled]

Gordon etc et al,
Gross remuneration is not the issue, it is productivity, what you get for the labor $$ per hour.
The way the award and the regulations work in tandem here is what produces the world leading lack of productivity --- and world leading costs, as a result.
Remember, a few years ago, the group at Avalon who quit the ALAEA and joined TWU (I think it was) because they understood that the objections to multi-skilling was going to cost them their jobs.
No point in having a high paying award if you have no job.
Forget all the excuses about "economic fleet size" and various other justifications, the simple fact is that stratospheric net cost, largely attributable to the "on the ground" application of the regulations and the award is the prime reason heavy maintenance, including any third party contract maintenance, has left Australia, and tens of thousands of jobs have been lost.
Tootle pip!!

PS: Re UAL doing B747 work for Qantas --- remember when Qantas in Sydney was doing B747-100 heavy maintenance ( D checks) in Sydney for PanAm, including a really complex AD involving how the fuselage is attached to the center wing box --- a job that others said could not be done. That is, if the inspection revealed the defect, the aeroplane was scrap. Qantas ROS proved that there was a way of completing the necessary repair that others said was impossible. Sadly, all expertise that is long gone.

[empire4]

Let’s be honest, the B717 maintenance should never have been moved from Adelaide. To prove this, the gentleman whom made that decision no longer works for the Qantas group.

Unfortunetly, having 4 orgnisations involved, 3 of them separate being Qantas, Cobham, Korr and Qantaslink things were never going to work out. Hard to get staff in CBR, even mainline has had troubles over the years. Pretty much all people employed through fixed term contracts, whether by QLink or Korr added fuel to the fire. Unfortunately there are some great people who’ll be moving again, no doubt still stuck in the viscious cycle of Australian aircraft maintenance contracting.

Then there was the logistics of component maintenance, non of which was in Canberra. Some component overhaul companies that were used charge like a wounded bull. More fuel being poured.

the last nail in the coffin was the quality of the work produced, not a fault of most individuals rather a system or organizational problem creating by managements setup. I’ve heard numerous first hand stories of maintenance errors that are simply not acceptable in today’s age.

the frustration I have is mostly with both Managements decisions and the association. Certain individuals will jump up and down and make the obligatory media slap down that Australian jobs have been lost, which is correct, but nothing was done prior to help the plethora of people now being employed in Australia through contract Labour organizations flirting the edge of employment laws and lining the pockets of owners.

Korr, Sigma, ALG, DEC the list goes on. These companies take $$ of people, for pretty much nothing. Some even have had a history of not paying their insurance. Gambling with the lives of those making them the $$. What’s being done about it? Nothing.

If the guys in Canberra were employed directly then they would get redundancies. But hey, I guess as long as you look after the majority of your members then you’re ok.

[Bend alot]

" through contract Labour organizations flirting the edge of employment laws and lining the pockets of owners."

Flirting is a very kind word!

You forgot flirting tax requirements also.

ATO :- Labour-hire firms and their workers. If you run a labour-hire firm you must withhold tax from payments to individual workers who perform work or services directly for your clients, regardless of whether they are an employee or independent contractor.

That then makes the Labour-hire firm liable for state Payroll Tax as applicable.

[Bend alot]

Facts on a rumour network always kill a thread!

Where is the elephant/s?