Erickson Aircrane accident Jericho, Victoria

[logansi]

There is very limited information but reports that a water bombing aircraft may have been involved in an accident in Jericho, working on the fire near the Thomson Dam around 7pm this evening. Reports that crew are ok. Sure we will hear more once it hits the media.

[PoppaJo]

Erickson Skycrane Christine.

[logansi]

Firebombing helicopter crashes Yarra Ranges
A water bombing helicopter used to fight bushfires has crash-landed into a dam in the Yarra Ranges on Monday night.

Emergency crews rushed to Jericho after the chopper came down and plunged into the water.

Three people on board the Helitak341 have luckily escaped without serious injury.

Communities around Mt Buller had been on alert for fires, following recent bushfires in the area including at Aberfeldy and Woods Point.

It’s not clear to which fire the crews on board the helicopter had been attending.

Local man Pedro, from the Tatong Tavern, said patrons had seen police and ambulance heading towards Odea Rod just after 8pm.

“That area is mainly bush, it’s a gravel road with lots of hills and mountains then it goes into a valley,” he said.

“They [emergency services] would have to access it by a back road though I’d say — it’s not private land but it’s got gates and fences.

“There’s a few farms that back onto the area too.”

Victoria Police spokeswoman Natalie Butler said crews were called to Nine Mile Rd about 7.15pm.

“It is believed all occupants of the aircraft are safely out,” Ms Butler said.

“The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has been notified.”

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/firebombing-helicopter-crashes-near-benalla/news-story/933675bdfe5fe844f911413634ff9ae0

[Squawk7700]

Christine or Delialah? I saw Delialah operating up there yesterday.

[logansi]

Christine or Delialah? I saw Delialah operating up there yesterday.

Both were there today, my information was that it was Christine. If it helps its the one out of YMEN not YMMB.

Edit: From EMV

https://i.imgur.com/ygxcbJu.jpg

[John Eacott]

That’ll be an interesting recovery: good the crew are OK.

https://i.imgur.com/DNYXuW7.jpg

[mickjoebill]

Presumably they don’t usually fly with an engineer during sorties?

The dam is more shaped like a river.
TV news video shows they are equidistant from raised banks with trees, maybe one rotor diameter either side. Hardly conclusive, but no obvious sign of impact with trees on the edge of the closest adjacent bank is evident.

mjb

[Peter3127]

That’ll be an interesting recovery: good the crew are OK.

https://i.imgur.com/DNYXuW7.jpg


Good result in the circumstances. It would appear the other Erickson machine could go close to lifting it out?

[John Eacott]

Good result in the circumstances. It would appear the other Erickson machine could go close to lifting it out?

News reports that the Crane fleet is grounded in Australia until Erickson/Kestrel satisfy the authorities as to the cause of the accident. Already speculation on news reports that the schnorkel may have snagged, but the images to date appear to show the schnorkel on H341 in the raised position.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-29/firefighting-water-bomber-helicopter-crashes-in-gippsland-dam/10757292?fbclid=IwAR2wvrdbL4OUEj7_2L_wBJyPEUriMIQ9o-86lS2zUaxwLWOPXZJgEETtseQ

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/28/22/05/victoria-news-water-bombing-plane-crash-jericho-mount-gregory-thomson-dam-bushfires

A Victorian water bombing helicopter has crashed into a dam while it was working to battle fires in the Gippsland region.

There are unconfirmed reports the craft flipped while scooping up water from a dam.

The Victorian State Control Centre last night confirmed an Aircrane aircraft, carrying three people, had been fighting the Aberfeldy fire over the Thomson Complex Catchment at the time of the incident at 7.15pm.

The three crew members – two pilots and an engineer – all safely escaped the aircraft and swam to the edge of the Thomson Dam, which is located next to Mount Gregory in the rural suburb of Jericho.

Ambulance Victoria authorities were dispatched to the area to assess the crew members but no one was injured.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau and Worksafe have been notified and an investigation is underway.

“Over the past several days, the aircraft had been involved in fire suppression activities at the Thomson Catchment Complex fires,” The State Control Centre said in a statement.

“The Aircrane was one of ten aircraft working on the fire.

“Emergency Management Commissioner Andrew Crisp said that he was grateful that the crew are safe.”

There are currently 49 water fighting helicopters operating in Victoria.

It's the first bushfire where night-time water bombing has taken place, however it was still light when this incident occured.

© Nine Digital Pty Ltd 2019

And the inevitable Worksafe involvement is a sign of the times; as if they should have a further say in an aircraft accident :confused:

[mickjoebill]

News reports that the Crane fleet is grounded in Australia until Erickson/Kestrel satisfy the authorities as to the cause of the accident. Already speculation on news reports that the schnorkel may have snagged, but the images to date appear to show the schnorkel on H341 in the raised position.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-29/firefighting-water-bomber-helicopter-crashes-in-gippsland-dam/10757292?fbclid=IwAR2wvrdbL4OUEj7_2L_wBJyPEUriMIQ9o-86lS2zUaxwLWOPXZJgEETtseQ

https://www.9news.com.au/2019/01/28/22/05/victoria-news-water-bombing-plane-crash-jericho-mount-gregory-thomson-dam-bushfires



And the inevitable Worksafe involvement is a sign of the times; as if they should have a further say in an aircraft accident :confused:

A file photo shows it also (May have) had a second flexible snorkel on the port side.

In regard to worksafe my view is they do have a roll to investigate and prosecute any failures in the adherence to labour laws. But they don’t.

[SASless]

Lifting the Aircraft while flooded could be a real chore......perhaps some flotation bags....get her upright and afloat....pump out as much water as possible....then go for the lift.

[twinstar_ca]

and that is why you should do a HUET course...

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

Thankfully no one was seriously hurt
I worked at Canadian Helicopters in Canada when they plunked a 61 into a small lake fighting fires.
The 64 came to remove the wreck from the waters edge after a bulldozer dragged it partially to shore.
It did the lift with minimal effort albeit slowly while the remaining water drained out.

I know a 64 doesn't have a bathtub of an airframe to collect as much water, so I wonder if another 64 can manage with a little more effort. If it cant...go ahead and drag that sucker up onto dry land.

[gulliBell]

Presumably the contract standing charges will stop for both Erickson aircraft, until the surviving aircraft is returned to service?

[John Eacott]

The temporary grounding has now been lifted and all Cranes are cleared for operations in Australia.

mjb, yes there is a donkey dick on all belly tank machines; the news report alluded to the water scooping which I referred to as a schnorkel.

Latest ABC News report, https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-29/firefighting-water-bomber-helicopter-crashes-in-gippsland-dam/10757292?fbclid=IwAR3EB3NBon_iGhy1mL7Y28ykyEeOPqJNGfA4Yk783i gIIiRzQaaYXONIn_A

The company operating a firefighting helicopter that crashed into a dam in eastern Victoria says the aircraft was "performing normally" moments before the accident.

The three men managed to swim to the edge of the dam.

Emergency Management Commissioner Andrew Crisp said the chopper "landed heavily" and the crew was flown to the Latrobe Valley Hospital for treatment.

"They were examined for some minor injuries and shock, as you'd imagine, but I believe they've been released from hospital now," he told ABC Radio Melbourne.

He said the cause of the crash was not yet clear.

Fleet grounded as 'precaution'

The Aircrane helicopter is one of the largest water-bombing aircraft in the world, and Victoria contracts two Aircranes as part of its firefighting fleet.

Five similar Aircranes — in NSW, South Australia, Western Australia and Victoria — were grounded while the crash was investigated.

Kestrel Aviation managing director Ray Cronin, whose company manages the fleet, said the ground was a "precautionary measure" while the company interviewed the crew and determined a probable cause.

He said after an initial investigation, the company and authorities had agreed that the grounding of the Aircrane fleet would be lifted.

"The Aircranes will return to service almost immediately," Mr Cronin said.

"The crews are with the aircraft ready to rejoin the fire fight in Victoria."

He said while he did not want to pre-empt the outcome of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau's (ATSB) investigation, he understood "the serviceability of the Aircrane" was good at the time of the crash.


"[I'm] absolutely confident in the aircraft — they're a workhorse, they're a very reliable aircraft."

A 'hazardous operating environment'

The Aircrane was refilling its water at the time, Forest Fire Management Victoria deputy fire officer Darrin McKenzie said.

"So they're actually quite close to water at that point. They have a snorkel which drops down into the water. They haven't fallen a great distance before they impacted with the water," Mr McKenzie said.

He said it was a "hazardous operating environment".

"This dam is surrounded by trees, and surrounded by hills. But it is quite rare that we have an event like this," he said.

"So they have to be really careful about what the wind conditions are, any downdrafts. So wind and visibility are the key things they need to think about from a safety view."

Work will begin in the next few days to try and work out how to get the Aircrane out of the water.

Crash 'very unusual' for renowned Aircrane

With a water-holding capacity of up to 9,000 litres, the Aircrane is popular with firefighting agencies around the world, CFA incident controller Mike Owen said.

"They're renowned across the world for their large firefighting capability and they operate in the USA, Canada, Australia, Greece, France and there's a fleet of about 20 of these worldwide at any time operating across firefighting," he told ABC Radio Gippsland.

"So very specialist equipment, very reliable, and Erickson are a well-known, well-respected company that operates them."

Each Aircrane is worth about $30 million, which Mr Owen said indicated the "sophistication" and "reliability" of the aircraft.

"It's very, very unusual to have an incident like this," he said.


Hundreds of hectares continue to burn

The helicopter was one of 10 water bombers being used to contain the Thomson Catchment Complex fires, which are burning just north of Mount Baw Baw.

Mr Owen said the fires were in a rugged area, making it difficult to get equipment into the area.

"There are three fires that are in the catchment … and together they're about 700 to 800 hectares at the moment," he said.

"Yesterday was the start of a concerted effort to use lots of aircraft bombing it, trying to create lines and assisting firefighters on the ground when we can get them in."

Premier Daniel Andrews said the crash was "a really serious incident" and said any lessons learnt during the investigation would be taken on board.

"We're very pleased obviously that nobody was seriously injured. It could've been a very different outcome," he said.

WorkSafe has been notified of the crash.

[SRFred]

Good that the cranes are back in the air and that no one was seriously injured.

A slightly off thread question but last week we had a small amarda of rotary and fixed wing aircraft attacking a fire across the valley. Our house seems to be a waypoint for the rotary stuff east going south and slightly west going north. I could follow a lot of activity on Flightradar including the big stuff like the 737 coming down from 20000 ft and its leader at 7500 feet and the RJ85 coming in and going but when they hit a "box" around the fireground they simply disappeared like the transponders were turned off. Other rotary and fixed wing aircraft could be followed continuously in the same "box". Any ideas?

[John Eacott]

I’m on an iPad and can’t post an enlarged image ATM, but on the available photos it looks very much like a broken tail rotor drive shaft from the 45 box up to the 90 box.

[gulliBell]

Sudden stoppage when TR/MR hit water may have busted the TR driveshaft.

[212man]

A Victorian water bombing helicopter has crashed into a dam while it was working to battle fires in the Gippsland region.

i knew the S64 had been around a bit, but hadn’t realised they were that old...,

[SASless]

One risk of the fixed tank system is the uplift pump. has to be very carefully monitored....as it will slurp up water until the tank overflows.

A malfunction that prevents stopping the uplift can get serious very quickly.

I am not sure how the Crane system works....but on the Huey/212/412....that took some monitoring especially as you are single pilot.

[John Eacott]

Sudden stoppage when TR/MR hit water may have busted the TR driveshaft.

Cause and effect: wind shift and overcontrol of the Crane resulting in the tail rotor impacting the water and subsequent TRDS failure could explain the accident.

twinstar_ca, all aircrew must have a current HUET and also wear LSJ, helmet, etc on fire ops in Australia.

WRT the recovery and conjecture about lifting the wreck: all Aircranes on contract here are S64E models, there are no 64Fs used. The tank will no doubt have taken in plenty of water after the ditching so it will become a weight issue, and the altitude will also be a factor if aerial recovery becomes involved. It could be some time before recovery is attempted especially with worsening fire conditions today and later in the week. 40C+ temperatures are again forecast in the south east of Oz :sad:

[SASless]

At least it is fresh water and no sea water.....makes the rebuild easier.

[noooby]

Cause and effect: wind shift and overcontrol of the Crane resulting in the tail rotor impacting the water and subsequent TRDS failure could explain the accident.

twinstar_ca, all aircrew must have a current HUET and also wear LSJ, helmet, etc on fire ops in Australia.

WRT the recovery and conjecture about lifting the wreck: all Aircranes on contract here are S64E models, there are no 64Fs used. The tank will no doubt have taken in plenty of water after the ditching so it will become a weight issue, and the altitude will also be a factor if aerial recovery becomes involved. It could be some time before recovery is attempted especially with worsening fire conditions today and later in the week. 40C+ temperatures are again forecast in the south east of Oz :sad:

Do you mean they're all E models except for the one sitting upside down in the dam? Because that is an F model.

Tank has a manual dump handle in the cockpit roof. That'll let it drain. While filling, right seater (captain is on left) calls out the water quantity and pilot flying pulls when they've got what they need. Mechanic in the back calls out if the mainwheels get close to the water so that the tail rotor stays well clear.

[gulliBell]

.....makes the rebuild easier.

Rebuilding after a sudden stoppage, let alone an immersion, 'aint ever easy, and it's always eye-wateringly expensive. I guess problem bilong insurer now.

[Droop Snoot]

Do you mean they're all E models except for the one sitting upside down in the dam? Because that is an F model.



References say it's an E model... apparently they retrofitted the dual wheel main landing gear from the F.

[cattletruck]

Birdstrike perhaps? They certainly were in the right spot for that kind of thing.

Meanwhile, when I turn on the tap water I'm thinking some avtur will soon start coming out :}.

[SASless]

Gulli....Erickson is the manufacturer you recall.

That saves on the cost somewhat....and I bet they are self insured.

Salt water corrosion shall not be an issue in this one.

[noooby]

References say it's an E model... apparently they retrofitted the dual wheel main landing gear from the F.

Really?? I wonder why they did that. From memory the F gear doesn't raise and lower like the E (handy when washing it to help water run off), unless they just replaced the lower strut and not the whole leg.
You learn something new everyday.

[megan]

Confirming it's registered on the FAA data base as an "E" model.

[physicus]

is there any further information as to probable cause?

[Kulwin Park]

And how did the recovery go? Craned out or air-lifted out?

[TylerMonkey]

Here is an informal list of the air crane N numbers I found so far ,
if anyone wants to copy.
Too much time on my hands . . .

N154AC GEORGIA PEACH
158 GOLIATH
159 CAMILLE
163 BUBBA
164 INCREDIBLE HULK
171 ANNIE
172 MARIAH
173 CHRISTINE
176 LUCILLE
179 ELVIS
189 Gypsy Lady
194 DELILAH
217 MALCOLM
218 ELSIE
229 TUG Italy
243 MARTY
247 JERRY
957 ICHABOD

OLGA N6962R
ISABELLE OB203

[FullOppositeRudder]

Nothing we probably don't already know, but preliminary ATSB report is here: https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2019/aair/ao-2019-008/

A bit more information here: ATSB begins investigation into Erickson Aircrane incident (http://australianaviation.com.au/2019/01/atsb-begins-investigation-into-erickson-aircrane-incident/)

Ongoing and serious bushfires in Victoria probably mean that recovery will be very much a secondary task for the remaining aircraft - if indeed it's used at all.

[John Eacott]

Closing an interview just now on the current bushfires in Victoria, the Emergency Services Commissioner responded that 'they have a plan for the recovery of the aircraft, and it will be about another six weeks'.

[rjtjrt]

Any update on the recovery of this aircraft?

[maxspeedz]

Hey there,
Heading to Aussie soon, just wondering where are the skycranes based would love to see one up close.....Cheers MS

[Evil Twin]

Think you may have missed them. The one at Bankstown left a couple of weeks back along with the Firehawks. Not sure if the others have left yet

[TWT]

Saw one today about 11am flying over Melbourne ( appears to have departed from YMEN)

[Capt SFB]

G'day Chaps,

3 x Skycranes currently sitting on the wharf in Geelong waiting for their ride to Greece . . .

Cheers,
Capt.

[John Eacott]

She's out :ok:

https://youtu.be/wfdJJBE6Rss

[industry insider]

Interesting break in the inclined drive shaft, sudden stoppage on impact?

[John Eacott]

Interesting break in the inclined drive shaft, sudden stoppage on impact?

See my Post No 21?

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

interesting way to recover it. and an oddly serene scene.

[FullOppositeRudder]

She's out https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Thanks John, been wondering what they might do...

[Cloudee]

Report out.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2019/aair/ao-2019-008/
What the ATSB foundThe ATSB found that the approach path to the dam was incrementally shortened over the course of the days’ operation. It is likely that the final tight approach path was at the upper margins of allowable speed and angle of bank, requiring a steep flare that contributed to the aircraft entering vortex ring state on approach.

Furthermore, the shape of the dam and surrounds of the site reduced the opportunity for recovery, and the aircraft impacted the water. The carriage of additional crew increased the risk of injury, while training for emergencies directly supported the crew’s survival.

[JohnDixson]

John E, I tend to think you are closer to the probable cause than the ATSB speculation. One thing I could add re the Crane’s engines. The engines transient response was slow. A very experienced Crane pilot at SA, Jim Kay,who did a lot of the certification and marketing flying, would refer to the JFTD-12 transient response as “pull and wait “. There was a lot of push-back from SA to P&W on this issue and the -5 engines were slightly better in that regard. The problem was that the engine was basically a J-60 turbo-jet redesigned to add a power turbine ( sorry,P&W for the oversimplification of what was,at the time,a spectacular effort ) and the control system mods were limited. It is not too unrealistic to propose the possibility that a crew in a hurry put themselves in a position where the slow transient response of the engines caught them. In either 1967 or 1968, when SA was doing commercial S-64 marketing demonstrations pretty aggressively,we had a 64 in Colombia supporting some oil business work,and a botched approach into the rig site where they were based resulted in a total loss and the death of the rear seat pilot ( head injury,no helmet-and that provoked fallout that you can imagine ). Similar circumstances to the one in discussion now: empty aircraft, crew perhaps in a hurry, good weather,no aircraft faults found after the fact.

[megan]

John E, I tend to think you are closer to the probable cause than the ATSB speculationI think the ATSB hung their hat on the crews statement that they thought it was possibly VRS (pages 6/7). Perhaps the root case was slow engine response as JD spells out.

[RVDT]

It was reiterated to pilots that, though aircrew work in close partnership and cooperation with aerial attack supervisors (AAS), AAS instructions are advisory. The pilot in command retains full authority to make decisions to ensure the safety of the aircraft and management support was available if escalation was required.

Kestrel Aviation increased the frequency of contact with Erickson Inc. crews to provide safety management support, and reduce operational pressure.




I wonder what that means - nothing pertaining to it anywhere in the report that explains why that statement would need to be made.

[212man]

I think the ATSB hung their hat on the crews statement that they thought it was possibly VRS (pages 6/7). Perhaps the root case was slow engine response as JD spells out.

It drives me nuts how often reports cite VRS as the cause when clearly there other more likely potential causes (as JD has mentioned)

[Twist & Shout]

It drives me nuts how often reports cite VRS as the cause when clearly there other more likely potential causes (as JD has mentioned)

All part of the modern “Victim” mentality: “There I was, flying a perfectly reasonable approach, when I was snatched from the sky by VR!!”

Sounds better than: “I commanded a high rate of descent, while reducing my airspeed in an attempt to make my profile more acceptable. When I pulled in a lot of power to arrest the ROD (With little IAS) the AC predictably entered VRS” (Or far more common - .....When I pulled in a lot of power to arrest the ROD (With little IAS) the AC predictably lost RRPM. I reacted to the subsequent increased ROD by raising the lever......“)

Didn’t end well - “must have been VRS - nothing I could do!!”

[industry insider]

would refer to the JFTD-12 transient response as “pull and wait

A bit like the Turmo IVC

[terminus mos]

All part of the modern “Victim” mentality: “There I was, flying a perfectly reasonable approach, when I was snatched from the sky by VR!!”

Commonly known as "wazzing"

[megan]

It drives me nuts how often reports cite VRS as the cause when clearly there other more likely potential causesThe ATSB seem to have a penchant for VRS.

Talking to the company pilot with whom the test flights were done in the following accident at no time were they able to enter VRS, and the ATSB chap occupying the other seat agreed. Once he got back to the office the story changed, so the report chapter on the testing would seem to be bollox. The conclusion reached in the testing was that the crew developed a high rate of descent in rearward flight. Remember getting the turbine endorsement in a UH-1B, one flight was a instructor demonstration of VRS at 14,000, wearing a parachute which was required for flight above 5,000, at our light weight we were unable to achieve the aim

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24791/199100126.pdf

[[email protected]]

The slow response time of the engines sounds very similar to those fitted in the RAF Puma Mk 1 - which had no anticipators. ISTR the crucial N1 figure was 85% and if you pulled pitch quickly below that figure the Nr would decay quickly, dropping the gennies off line and the AP.

[industry insider]

A bit like the Turmo IVC

As I suggested earlier Crab

[[email protected]]

As I suggested earlier Crab yes, I thought I would expand a bit for those that don't know the history:ok: