View Full Version : Clare Baldwin: Navy should help more as they are not doing much actual warfare
oggers
22nd Jan 2019, 10:03
From today on Jeremy Vine:
The armed forces should get invovlved more regulalrly with helping us. Not just as a sign of crisis...when you've got a navy which is not involved in too much actual warfare at the moment then you need to use them in security issues
She said, referring to the illegal immigrant situation in the channel. Because, of course, our armed forces aren't committed to any security issues right now seeing as there is not much actual warfare occuring. These media people have got absolutely no idea.
Fareastdriver
22nd Jan 2019, 12:33
A couple of broadsides with the old fifteen inches; that'll stop them.
SASless
22nd Jan 2019, 12:40
These media people have got absolutely no idea.
Too True!
Where did they get the idea the UK still has a Navy?
Imagegear
22nd Jan 2019, 12:56
I'm sure that a few of those matelots with nothing to do, would really like to exchange their pitching and rolling, arctic cruise for the odd jolly out of Brighton to luvvy illegal immigrants trying to break down the door.
Or perhaps Ms Balding might like to take a lower deck cruise in one HM's old war canoes for a couple of months down the Gulf in July. :E
IG
melmothtw
22nd Jan 2019, 13:04
Do you mean Clare Baldwin, special correspondent for Reuters and Pulitzer Prize winner, or do you mean Clare Balding, general broadcaster with a penchant for all things horses?
Out of interest, what "actual warfare" (your words) is the Royal Navy currently involved in?
heights good
22nd Jan 2019, 13:47
Do you mean Clare Baldwin, special correspondent for Reuters and Pulitzer Prize winner, or do you mean Clare Balding, general broadcaster with a penchant for all things horses?
Out of interest, what "actual warfare" (your words) is the Royal Navy currently involved in?
Warfare is a pretty silly term. Have a look at the current standing operations
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_Royal_Navy_deployments
This does not include other operations.
oggers
22nd Jan 2019, 13:50
Yes Clare Balding. My mistake.
Does the UK not have the equivalent of a Coast Guard? In the US, the Coast Guard has the law enforcement mission (including human smuggling/immigration) and USN is forbidden to get directly involved.
Does the UK not have the equivalent of a Coast Guard? In the US, the Coast Guard has the law enforcement mission (including human smuggling/immigration) and USN is forbidden to get directly involved. As in a military service in the USA - no, see below. Helo SAR is covered by civil contract, currently Bristows.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/593127/mca_uksar.pdf
As in a military service in the USA - no, see below. Helo SAR is covered by civil contract, currently Bristows.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_Majesty%27s_Coastguard
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/593127/mca_uksar.pdfThe US Coast Guard is a military service, but not part of the Department of Defense. Coast Guard was originally part of the Department of Commerce, but recently was moved to Department of Homeland Security, which is a law enforcement agency. This is an important distinction under our Constitution. DoD assets may not be used for law enforcement duties. However, in times of war, the US Coast Guard can become part of the US Navy.
USCG does maritime law enforcement (fisheries laws, smuggling laws, maritime environmental protection laws, etc etc), operates and maintains waterways navaids (such as light houses, buoys, etc), and is responsible for maritime search and rescue. Apparently all those maritime law enforcement duties in the UK fall to the Royal Navy?
Don’t worry Clare I’m sure they can get the RNLI to do it
oldmansquipper
22nd Jan 2019, 17:25
Clare Balding and Jeremy Vine talking Defence on the the radio?
Is that what used to be referred to as "Solid State Stereo" back in the day?
IGMC
ex82watcher
22nd Jan 2019, 17:27
I believe the First Sea Lord flies his flag from HMS Victory.Perhaps it could be refloated ?
Get the Mary Rose to do it
Asturias56
22nd Jan 2019, 18:58
The US Coast Guard is a military service, but not part of the Department of Defense. Coast Guard was originally part of the Department of Commerce, but recently was moved to Department of Homeland Security, which is a law enforcement agency. This is an important distinction under our Constitution. DoD assets may not be used for law enforcement duties. However, in times of war, the US Coast Guard can become part of the US Navy.
USCG does maritime law enforcement (fisheries laws, smuggling laws, maritime environmental protection laws, etc etc), operates and maintains waterways navaids (such as light houses, buoys, etc), and is responsible for maritime search and rescue. Apparently all those maritime law enforcement duties in the UK fall to the Royal Navy?
I understand that offshore enforcement is split between the Navy, the Border Forces and the police. Naviads are the dept transport, rescue is the lifeboat charity plus the raf and any relevant military resource
melmothtw
22nd Jan 2019, 19:03
Don’t worry Clare I’m sure they can get the RNLI to do it
Given the numbers that are actually coming over, there's no reason they couldn't get the RNLI to do it.
Pontius Navigator
22nd Jan 2019, 19:09
They tend to be land based with Coast Guard stations and are responsible for the Maritime Search and Rescue, particularly with helicopters. The Royal National Lifeboat Institution has lifeboats and works with HMCG for rescue; they are not Government funded.
The nearer equivalent to the USCG is Border Force with a number of cutters two of which are in the Mediterranean.
WE Branch Fanatic
22nd Jan 2019, 22:03
RN Fishery Protection Squadron: Provides fishery enforcement in English, Welsh, and NI water, and occasionally Scottish. Does national tasking such as shadowing Russian or Chinese warships of other vessels of interests. Can be used for Military Aid to Government Departments of Military Aid to The Civil Power - as can other RN ships. MAGD/MACP can include counter narcotics, counter terrorism, SAR, anti pollution, and so on.
Marine Scotland: Performs fishery protection in Scottish waters.
Border Force: Has five cutters used for anti illegal immigration and counter drug tasks. Two are returning to the UK from Med.
Police: Virtually every UK Police force has an area of coast, and have small patrol vessels, RIBs, and can patrol/board. The Ministry of Defence Police has full constabulary powers throughout the UK, and a large fleet of launches, mostly in the naval ports.
HM Coastguard: Coordinates Search and Rescue from shore stations, provides cliff/beach rescue teams and provides SAR helicopters via contract. Also provides marine salvage and towing via a contractor.
RNLI: Provides lifeboats through the UK and Ireland, manned by volunteers.
Trinity House: Responsible for light houses, light ships, and navigation bouys in English, Welsh, and NI waters.
Northern Lighthouse Board: Does the same in the Scottish and Isle of Man coasts.
Carbon Bootprint
23rd Jan 2019, 01:49
The US Coast Guard is a military service, but not part of the Department of Defense. Coast Guard was originally part of the Department of Commerce, but recently was moved to Department of Homeland Security, which is a law enforcement agency. This is an important distinction under our Constitution. DoD assets may not be used for law enforcement duties. However, in times of war, the US Coast Guard can become part of the US Navy.
USCG does maritime law enforcement (fisheries laws, smuggling laws, maritime environmental protection laws, etc etc), operates and maintains waterways navaids (such as light houses, buoys, etc), and is responsible for maritime search and rescue. Apparently all those maritime law enforcement duties in the UK fall to the Royal Navy?i don’t believe USCG has ever been part of the Department of Commerce. It was under the Department of Transportation for many years before being moved to Homeland Security after 9/11. As you say, it can be placed under the Navy with a Congressional decree.
A couple of broadsides with the old fifteen inches; that'll stop them.
Wait until you see the whites of their eyes Pike...
212man
23rd Jan 2019, 08:00
i don’t believe USCG has ever been part of the Department of Commerce. It was under the Department of Transportation for many years before being moved to Homeland Security
Which means they are not currently being paid.....
A4scooter
23rd Jan 2019, 14:42
Neither the RNLI or Coast Guard helicopters should be used when dealing with immigrants.
I know from personal experience that "refugees" can be aggressive, have mental issues or are physically ill and have zero respect for female Police Officers.
It shouldn't be the responsibility of unpaid RNLI crews and civilian helicopter crews to undertake work which should be done by Border Force and the Police.
Unfortunately the UK has no alternative but to use the RNLI, Coast Guard helicopters and Royal Navy vessels because Border Force don't have enough vessels and because they are Civil Servants with the Civil Service menality are a poor substitute for Police Officers or a body similiar to the US Coast Guard.
i don’t believe USCG has ever been part of the Department of Commerce. It was under the Department of Transportation for many years before being moved to Homeland Security after 9/11. As you say, it can be placed under the Navy with a Congressional decree.You are correct.. I miss spoke. USCG become part of Dept of Transportation in 1967, not Dept of Commerce. Mea culpa. However, both Congress and the President have the authority to move the Coast Guard into the US Navy.
hunterboy
23rd Jan 2019, 18:33
Blimey, it’s almost like the UK is trying to police it’s shores on the cheap. No doubt someone in government has worked out it’s cheaper to let them come ashore and give them a council house than to actually pay for a force to defend our shores.
Strumble Head
23rd Jan 2019, 18:52
Neither the RNLI or Coast Guard helicopters should be used when dealing with immigrants.
I know from personal experience that "refugees" can be aggressive, have mental issues or are physically ill and have zero respect for female Police Officers.
It shouldn't be the responsibility of unpaid RNLI crews and civilian helicopter crews to undertake work which should be done by Border Force and the Police.
Unfortunately the UK has no alternative but to use the RNLI, Coast Guard helicopters and Royal Navy vessels because Border Force don't have enough vessels and because they are Civil Servants with the Civil Service menality are a poor substitute for Police Officers or a body similiar to the US Coast Guard.
Ok, I'll bite on this one! Re behaviours that might be experienced with 'refugees' - agreed, but so were some of the people we assisted when I used to be a lifeboat crewman way, way back. Not many, but it happened. Usually in the summer and when drink or other psychotropic substances had been consumed.
WE Branch Fanatic
23rd Jan 2019, 22:12
A4scooter,
Oh come on! Talk about demonising refugees! Did you see the TV footage of the dead baby washed up on the shores of the Med? Or the terrified 4 year old girl being handed up to a rescuer from a sinking boat? These are desperate people who have suffered a lot to get as far as they have got. Calling them 'refugees' as you do is disingenuous and frankly appalling!
WEBF/Hunterboy,
Actually the UK Border Force has NINE vessels, it has 4 32 Ton Coastal Patrol Vessels in addition to the 5 Cutters, each of which also carry a RIB and a Rescue Boat.
As to your throw away nonsense about Council Housing, I guess you have no idea what these folk go through do you?
I did not mention Council Housing and am not of the "let them drown - machine gun them" view that sadly is expressed. I was merely trying to answer KenV's question about responsibility for SAR, maritime safety, maritime law enforcement, etc.
hunterboy
24th Jan 2019, 04:51
Proone, you are right, it was a throw away line to chuck into the debate. Not a go at refugees , but our disfunctional governement policies. Out of interest, how many of these 9 vessels are at sea at any one time? How many sq km is each boat expected to patrol? No doubt budget limited to the amount of fuel they can use a month. So we have border /coastal security subject to budgetary constraints? If that is the case, why bother?
‘Why not, open our borders, let refugees work , but change the rules to look after people that contribute to the system first, as does the rest of the EU and USA.
I stand by my assertion, that the UK is relying on good luck , good will and charity to achieve what many other countries have a Navy and/or Coastguard do.
FleurDeLys
24th Jan 2019, 09:06
Don't the RN still have a dozen or so patrol vessels at University Royal Naval Units? Perhaps a meaningful deployment for them?
BEagle
24th Jan 2019, 09:45
The URNUs have a total allocation of 14 Archer class fast patrol boats, which form No.1 Patrol Boat Squadron.
They look rather fun - and the URNUs remain something of a secret compared to the OTC and UAS. Little flying at a UAS these days and eating mud in the OTC probably has a limited appeal. Whereas wazzing about in 54 ton patrol boats....
racingrigger
24th Jan 2019, 09:45
A4scooter,
Oh come on! Talk about demonising refugees! Did you see the TV footage of the dead baby washed up on the shores of the Med? Or the terrified 4 year old girl being handed up to a rescuer from a sinking boat? These are desperate people who have suffered a lot to get as far as they have got. Calling them 'refugees' as you do is disingenuous and frankly appalling!
WEBF/Hunterboy,
Actually the UK Border Force has NINE vessels, it has 4 32 Ton Coastal Patrol Vessels in addition to the 5 Cutters, each of which also carry a RIB and a Rescue Boat.
As to your throw away nonsense about Council Housing, I guess you have no idea what these folk go through do you?
If the so called refugees are in such dire straits as you imply, why did they not seek asylum in the first safe country iaw the Dublin Accord?
A4scooter
24th Jan 2019, 12:19
A4scooter,
Oh come on! Talk about demonising refugees! Did you see the TV footage of the dead baby washed up on the shores of the Med? Or the terrified 4 year old girl being handed up to a rescuer from a sinking boat? These are desperate people who have suffered a lot to get as far as they have got. Calling them 'refugees' as you do is disingenuous and frankly appalling!
WEBF/Hunterboy,
Actually the UK Border Force has NINE vessels, it has 4 32 Ton Coastal Patrol Vessels in addition to the 5 Cutters, each of which also carry a RIB and a Rescue Boat.
As to your throw away nonsense about Council Housing, I guess you have no idea what these folk go through do you?
I have a lot of sympathy for genuine refugees and wouldn't want anyone to die while crossing the channel whatever their circumstances and I take offence at the "Council House" remark as I am not that person.
It iis still doesn't make it acceptable for the authorities knowingly putting volunteers and civilians in danger because enforcement agencies have no resourses
pr00ne
24th Jan 2019, 14:47
racingrigger,
The VAST majority of them do.
pr00ne
24th Jan 2019, 14:47
hunterboy,
Fair enough, I see what you are getting at and can't really disagree.
racingrigger
24th Jan 2019, 15:16
racingrigger,
The VAST majority of them do.
You may be right that the vast majority seek asylum elsewhere, but according to my paper there are approx another 3,000 asylum seekers scattered around northern France waiting to try their luck.
Finningley Boy
24th Jan 2019, 16:06
I would have thought the poor wretches trying to get to the UK would be best advised to stay put in France! Haven't they heard of Brexit and what's going to happen to us!
FB
NutLoose
24th Jan 2019, 16:11
As to your throw away nonsense about Council Housing, I guess you have no idea what these folk go through do you?
As with all things in life, THEY HAVE A CHOICE.
Fleeing from France is not putting ones life in ones hands because they are being persecuted and thus they are then endangering others lives who have to try to rescue them,.
Its the bloody doogooders that were picking them up a mile or so off the coast of the likes of Libya then transporting them to Italy etc and doing the people smugglers work for them I blame.
I would have returned them straight to Libya, all that does is encourage people to attempt in even less seaworthy boats as they know they only have to reach a couple of miles out.
You don't pay these guys thousands to get dumped back at square one and then it will not take long for it to start to get around that you are wasting your cash.
..
langleybaston
24th Jan 2019, 20:08
Absolutely bang-on.
It is amazing that such an obvious truth is seemingly beyond our leaders.
Truly amazing.
Wander00
25th Jan 2019, 08:24
Well said Nutloose. And currently many of them are not fleeing persecution they are economic migrants. If claiming asylum they should be dealt with in the first "free" country they reach, not to be encouraged to seek the yellow brick road in UK
NutLoose
25th Jan 2019, 09:23
Finally sense is prevailing and they agree with me :ooh::cool:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/illegal-migrants-crossing-channel-to-be-returned-in-new-anglo-french-deal/ar-BBSHvkH
Sajid Javid has signed a new deal with his French counterpart to return migrants who illegally cross the Channel back to France.The agreement saw the first handful of migrants returned yesterday and is part of a new action plan which is backed by £6m extra money from the UK government. It was announced yesterday after the Home Secretary met French interior minister Christophe Castaner in London.The French have agreed they will take back migrants who have been fingerprinted on the so-called Eurodac database. This enables immigration officers to establish if they have already applied for asylum in an EU country or illegally transited through other EU states.
teeteringhead
25th Jan 2019, 09:38
This enables immigration officers to establish if they have already applied for asylum in an EU country or illegally transited through other EU states. Surely one or the other must be true if they rock up in the Channel heading for UK.....?
Tashengurt
25th Jan 2019, 13:10
Finally sense is prevailing and they agree with me :ooh::cool:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/illegal-migrants-crossing-channel-to-be-returned-in-new-anglo-french-deal/ar-BBSHvkH
Another political smoke and mirrors job.
Savvy Javvy gets to look tough by returning a few migrants, meanwhile the French know word will spread amongst migrants and they'll see a drop in those registering there to take advantage of their support systems while they wait to get into the UK.