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Cesspool182
20th Jan 2019, 01:55
I’m hearing the AFAP have gone rogue with their Jetstar negotiations. Over the top claims including a large percentage increase to exceed shorthaul rates, equivalent 787 pay, staff travel priority higher than mainline amongst other things. Looks like they are deliberately picking a fight. Do the Jetstar guys think they can successfully fight Qantas?

dragon man
20th Jan 2019, 02:41
Hope they give the pricks a blood nose.

Beer Baron
20th Jan 2019, 02:53
I hope they get it (except for the staff travel ;)) Pushing terms and conditions up across the industry is good for everyone.

Popgun
20th Jan 2019, 02:53
I guess the JQ guys are sick of being paid and treated so poorly despite contributing fairly to the QF Group’s overwhelming profitability.

Working (roughly) a third harder for two-thirds the remuneration would get you down after a while. So would being treated as a second class citizen on QF aircraft when it comes to duty and staff travel despite having no similar advantage on a JQ aircraft. (Yes...economy on duty travel even internationally if there are no J seats!)

No minimum daily credit on long haul, constant 4 sector day abuse on short haul, no credit for standby, no pattern protection, sub-standard loss of licence insurance and sick leave provisions, lack of preferential bid and open time systems, appalling annual leave system, sub-standard hotels, inedible and unhealthy inflight catering....I could go on and on!!!

There’s only so many times you can kick a dog before it bites back.

I have no inside knowledge but I genuinely wish the Jetstar (and Tiger) pilot group all the best in their fight for fair and reasonable conditions that will allow an income and lifestyle closer to an industry average rather than barrel bottom scraping.

PG

OCTA
20th Jan 2019, 03:16
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....

Ted Nugent
20th Jan 2019, 03:24
At least they have a log of claims, the silence from the AIPA camp is deafening!

sled
20th Jan 2019, 03:33
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....
Great. Yet another person negotiating against themselves... Instead of trying to better their contact why don’t they just donate it all to Alan hey OCTA?

Popgun
20th Jan 2019, 03:38
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....

What an arrogantly, ill conceived, pompous comment.

There was quite an extended period in this country where the only major companies hiring were Jetstar and Tiger. Not everyone had the good fortune and lucky timing to land a premier gold QF mainline or silver Virgin gig.

In this industry and in this country most people need to take the first major jet job they get offered in order to get on a seniority list and start paying the mortgage and feeding the family.

PG

a_pilot
20th Jan 2019, 03:57
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....

Most of us (including the negotiating team) were not here at the start and did not sign the initial contract (2004), from which many of those original conditions still remain today.

Regarding why did we accept employment under such a contract, read the previous post from popgun.

We all knew it wasn't legacy pay and conditions (Qantas), but it was still a decent payrise from my job in GA, and maybe the only once in a life time opportunity to join an airline and fly a jet, especially in Australia. QF were not hiring at the time, otherwise some people missed out or didn't have the requirements, and Virgin depended on how many blue stars you could get. The only other option was to go overseas. What else was I supposed to do ? Remain in GA on less pay ?

Once pilots join an airline, even if not ideal conditions at the time, it does not mean don't ever stop fighting for better improved conditions.

OCTA
20th Jan 2019, 04:09
A-Pilot - so you work for Jetstar? If so you signed a contract agreeing to the terms of the offer of employment. If anyone didn’t like this terms they they didn’t have a gun held against their head to sign them. Hey more money is great but if you accepted the terms you shouldn’t expect the terms to be significantly changed 12 months later (or whatever the EBA length is) Sure expect an increase as per inflation but why would you expect to get anything else?

Pop Gun - so do you eat at McDonald’s and expect fine dining? You work for Jetstar not Qantas so expect to be treated as the low cost step brother even if you do make mum more money.

Derfred
20th Jan 2019, 04:16
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....

Well, first of all, they didn't sign a contract, they accepted an offer of employment, which would have stated that the applicable workplace agreement (as varied from time to time) would apply. And now it's time to vary it.

And they probably accepted the job offer because it was the best one available at the time and they needed to feed their family and hoped to advance their career. That doesn't mean they were happy with it.

Enshrined in law in this country is the scope to improve a workplace agreement through collective bargaining, which is what is happening now, and is what happens all over the country, all the time. And every time, people like you make complete fools of themselves in public.

a_pilot
20th Jan 2019, 04:21
OCTA..

I say again Once pilots join an airline, even if not ideal conditions at the time, it does not mean don't ever stop fighting for better improved conditions

As Defred said, this is exactly what EBA negotiating is about.

In the same way as management are always trying to get more from us/the company (and they get rewarded with KPI's, bonuses, etc...), the pilots naturally want more (a better deal) from the company too.

George Glass
20th Jan 2019, 04:29
Spot the management troll............

Ken Borough
20th Jan 2019, 04:29
Sounds very much like an ambit claim for me - the usual farce that precedes all industrial negotiations. The IR people must be seen to be doing something to justify their existence.

Popgun
20th Jan 2019, 04:31
Pop Gun - so do you eat at McDonald’s and expect fine dining? You work for Jetstar not Qantas so expect to be treated as the low cost step brother even if you do make mum more money.

Both assumptions are incorrect.

But back to the main point...best of luck with your JQ EBA negotiations. I hope the pilot group can remain cohesive and determined in order to fight hard for a fair outcome.

PG

ConfigFull
20th Jan 2019, 04:48
Hmmm... Can we agree, from an economic perspective that the contract you signed up to is what you are "worth"? So you know what they're going to say right... What are you willing to give up to get these things?

1. ...being treated as a second class citizen on QF aircraft when it comes to duty and staff travel despite having no similar advantage on a JQ aircraft: Actual QF employees are treated like second-class citizens so I guess you mean third-class. There's an order - every manager worldwide then everyone else. You can have the advantage on JQ if you want!
2. No minimum daily credit on long haul: QF SH don't have this
3. Constant 4 sector day abuse on short haul: sounds like another day at QF SH
4. No pattern protection: be careful what you wish for. Want to have your entire roster up-ended in week 1 and owe them for your entire rosters? I guarantee you'll drop the hours; or you won't and then complain about it to everyone anyway.
5. Sub-standard... ...sick leave provisions: sounds pretty QF-like
6. Lack of preferential bid and open time systems: I guess this is part of the contract you signed. What will you give up for this?
7. Appalling annual leave system: yep, just like QF
8. Sub-standard hotels: if QF pilots spend half their lives in shitholes (London, LA etc.) then I imagine the LCC ones can't be great; and
9. Inedible and unhealthy inflight catering: didn't you guys vote out meals??

Now, this said - I'm all for going hard and good luck to anyone who gets the absolute best terms and conditions possible. But these are the realities of where we're at, no? What if JQ wasn't a part of the QF group, would you still be expecting all this stuff? Imagine telling a Ryanair, Veulig or other LCC pilot that you can get J seats on QF when you pax around! Hell, closer to home I reckon there would be a couple hundred VA pilots that would be keen on this..!

Until there a huge levels of parked JQ aircraft around Australia and SE Asia/NZ then nothing will change. All they need is 50% plus 1 and there will always be enough that sell out for a slightly above CPI cash injection (or even worse, one-off bonus).

The Green Goblin
20th Jan 2019, 04:51
The troops are angry and ready for a fight from what I can see.

Good luck.

dragon man
20th Jan 2019, 05:05
“4. No pattern protection: be careful what you wish for. Want to have your entire roster up-ended in week 1 and owe them for your entire rosters? I guarantee you'll drop the hours; or you won't and then complain about it to everyone anyway”

In long haul there are two parts to this, firstly produce a medical certificate for the duration of the pattern and there is no pattern protection,secondly you can drop the balance of the pattern protection unpaid. It’s a good system IMO.

Justin. Beaver
20th Jan 2019, 05:18
These AFAP claims are 100% aimed at recruiting more members. Nothing else. The AFAP knows these claims will never be agreed to by Jetstar in a million years, even in the face of threatened or actual industrial action.

neville_nobody
20th Jan 2019, 05:51
If anyone didn’t like this terms they they didn’t have a gun held against their head to sign them. Hey more money is great but if you accepted the terms you shouldn’t expect the terms to be significantly changed 12 months later (or whatever the EBA length is) Sure expect an increase as per inflation but why would you expect to get anything else?

What if the employment market has changed since the last EBA? Would you still go and ask for CPI even though it is a below market salary? End of the day you get paid what you negotiate nothing more nothing less. If you are in a stronger bargaining position than the company you can expect to get a better deal. Whether this is the case or not is yet to be seen.

chickoroll
20th Jan 2019, 05:58
Just when I thought the EBA negotiations were a myth. There is more discussion on here than the JPC private app.

Why anyone in JQ is apart of AIPA has me [email protected] They have absolutely no interest in our conditions.

virgindriver
20th Jan 2019, 06:08
Meantime, the Network and Cobham drivers are thinking they wish they had Jetstar conditions.

Be nice if we were all on the same conditions but I can’t see it happening.

No harm in asking though.

Derfred
20th Jan 2019, 06:12
Why anyone in JQ is apart of AIPA has me [email protected] They have absolutely no interest in our conditions.


I'm not sure how you can deduce that from an ambit log of claims by one party.

neville_nobody
20th Jan 2019, 06:16
I'm not sure how you can deduce that from an ambit log of claims by one party.

If you look at the trend of AIPA Presidents leaving and getting management roles one does have to wonder.

ConfigFull
20th Jan 2019, 06:33
“4. No pattern protection: be careful what you wish for. Want to have your entire roster up-ended in week 1 and owe them for your entire rosters? I guarantee you'll drop the hours; or you won't and then complain about it to everyone anyway”

In long haul there are two parts to this, firstly produce a medical certificate for the duration of the pattern and there is no pattern protection,secondly you can drop the balance of the pattern protection unpaid. It’s a good system IMO.

Try going sick for 5-9 days

dragon man
20th Jan 2019, 07:13
Try going sick for 5-9 days


For me that’s never a problem.

ddrwk
20th Jan 2019, 08:55
If you look at the trend of AIPA Presidents leaving and getting management roles one does have to wonder.

what trend?

titan uranus
20th Jan 2019, 09:00
A-Pilot - so you work for Jetstar? If so you signed a contract agreeing to the terms of the offer of employment. If anyone didn’t like this terms they they didn’t have a gun held against their head to sign them. Hey more money is great but if you accepted the terms you shouldn’t expect the terms to be significantly changed 12 months later (or whatever the EBA length is) Sure expect an increase as per inflation but why would you expect to get anything else?

Pop Gun - so do you eat at McDonald’s and expect fine dining? You work for Jetstar not Qantas so expect to be treated as the low cost step brother even if you do make mum more money.

OCTA. Being silent would suit you better.

OCTA
20th Jan 2019, 09:24
Titian - thanks but then this site wouldn’t work very well would it?

Beer Baron
20th Jan 2019, 10:17
So OCTA, when the company comes along and asks for an 18 month wage freeze because times are tough, employees can say “nope, these are the conditions I signed on to so you must maintain them (in real terms) forever. You knew what you were getting into when you employed me”?

gordonfvckingramsay
20th Jan 2019, 11:52
Aghhhhhhh! How sad that you lot are content with throwing crap at each other. If you put half that energy into pushing back at the airline management, we’d all be in a better place. God help us!

Popgun
20th Jan 2019, 13:31
Aghhhhhhh! How sad that you lot are content with throwing crap at each other. If you put half that energy into pushing back at the airline management, we’d all be in a better place. God help us!

Yes, agreed.

Unfortunately it appears there is still ongoing bad blood between elements within the QF and JQ pilot groups that spans bitterness to jealousy over 14 years since the Orange step-child was welcomed to the family.

The sad irony is that EVERYONE works for the same company...the Qantas group. There is only ONE share price, only ONE bucket of money.

Wouldn’t it be great if we could all act in unity as a group of professionals standing together in solidarity against the weight of MBA graduates and accountants that know the cost of everything yet the value of nothing.

PG

JPJP
20th Jan 2019, 17:40
Wouldn’t it be great if we could all act in unity as a group of professionals standing together in solidarity .....
PG

What an excellent idea. It also has the advantage of being effective. Especially now.

Would it be correct to say that both Qantas Short Haul and Jetstar are negotiating for better terms and conditions at the same time ? Effectively putting the majority of Australia’s short haul flying at stake if things got difficult. Effectively putting the majority of Australia’s short haul pilots in a postition of leverage.

You’ve all earned the enhanced terms and conditions. The market shows a positive trend in pilot remuneration, with FLID leading the way with his own 20 million dollar payout. How could he disagree ? :E

dragon man
20th Jan 2019, 21:31
When the Qantas long haul contract has gone backwards re the 787 then I think in reality to think that both Qantas shorthaul and Jetstar can improve conditions is not going to happen. Should it. Yes? Without a doubt. Maybe a change of government will make industrial action easier, maybe pilots voting with their feet thru resignations, sick leave or changing types in persuit of a better lot will help, but I think I can safely say it will not be an easy task.

The Bullwinkle
20th Jan 2019, 21:51
Maybe a change of government will make industrial action easier,
:ugh::ugh::ugh:
Yep, turned out great during the dispute when Labor were in power!

Rated De
20th Jan 2019, 21:52
It is an interesting insight into the state of an industry that a union actively attempting to leverage a potential advantage for its membership attracts such differing opinion.
There has been little collective leverage from the organsised labour movement, in part to the very anti-worker environment in most western economies and duplicitous union motivation.

Dare it be said but unions were a result of severe asymmetry benefiting the employers or owners of capital. A well worn path now sees union leadership find itself on a management fast track from Stream Lead to IR negotiators.
In years passed such a move would be viewed very seriously by a union. One with experience of the more militant unions in building and construction may recall how such actions have been interpreted and responded to in the past.

Aviation is not alone, finance sector union leadership are invited into the management suite such that the carpet needs regular replacement. Is it any surprise that wage outcomes in the western hemisphere have seen ever declining real wages, falling living standards and increasing levels of debt?

The motivation of the AFAP ought be applauded, as at long last, the union leadership is no longer the nodding head in the background as management speaks.

KZ Kiwi
20th Jan 2019, 22:46
So when they signed their contracts agreeing to the above terms they where happy with them... but now they are not? Maybe they shouldn’t have signed the initial contracts, it’s not like they have lowered the pay.....

Sigh.......

ExtraShot
20th Jan 2019, 23:24
.Do the Jetstar guys think they can successfully fight Qantas?

Obviously the AFAP guys do, and more power to them.

Wouldn’t it be nice to see a little bit of this kind of mongrel in the QF negotiations (shock - horror, a log of claims is now ‘going rogue’!!), rather than the current Stockholm Syndrome that seemingly exists?!

dragon man
20th Jan 2019, 23:37
Obviously the AFAP guys do, and more power to them.

Wouldn’t it be nice to see a little bit of this kind of mongrel in the QF negotiations (shock - horror, a log of claims is now ‘going rogue’!!), rather than the current Stockholm Syndrome that seemingly exists?!

Well said.👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏

Justin. Beaver
20th Jan 2019, 23:58
Obviously the AFAP guys do, and more power to them.

Wouldn’t it be nice to see a little bit of this kind of mongrel in the QF negotiations (shock - horror, a log of claims is now ‘going rogue’!!), rather than the current Stockholm Syndrome that seemingly exists?!

It might be nice to see so you can satisfy your unjustified sense of being hard done by, but it will make absolutely no beneficial difference to the outfcone of the EBA and what you are offered.

You don’t seem to understand that the CEO you are dealing with is completely unfazed by ‘mongrel’ and ‘fight’ and other tough sounding negotiating tactics.

dragon man
21st Jan 2019, 00:16
It might be nice to see so you can satisfy your unjustified sense of being hard done by, but it will make absolutely no beneficial difference to the outfcone of the EBA and what you are offered.

You don’t seem to understand that the CEO you are dealing with is completely unfazed by ‘mongrel’ and ‘fight’ and other tough sounding negotiating tactics.

Well maybe instead of sounding tough it should be turned into reality. Considering in his own words he got a 35% productivity gain from his long haul pilots for the 787 deal he can now return some of it.😂😂😂

hazohag
21st Jan 2019, 00:21
Lordy - you lot need to hold it together.
Just remember - you all do the same job - you all put up with time away from those who love you - you all put up with multiple checkpoints each year that could end your career.
You even fly the same bloody things - why should a JQ pilot earn less? (im not JQ btw!).

The JQ lot signed up when it was going cheap - they did what they had to do. Not everyone can work for QAL - management made sure of that. Take it up with Dixon and Joyce.
Unfortunately for management, people with your skill and demeanour are in short supply - so you should be embracing your brothers and sisters making the most of it - by demanding more!

It benefits everyone, and it's the only mark/legacy on this industry available to you right now.

GWhizz
21st Jan 2019, 01:55
Hazohag said it for sure......

Stop playing the game CEOs want you to! No other industry I know of has a bunch of guys dividing and conquering themselves. You should be pleased that the AFAP is on your side and not only fighting for the easy victory. Many a time I’ve watched with frustration as the AFAP fed another win to my company by being soft.

Roj approved
21st Jan 2019, 02:46
The bosses want us fighting over who has the biggest pile of crumbs so we don’t realise they made off with the whole damn cake.

ExtraShot
21st Jan 2019, 03:09
It might be nice to see so you can satisfy your unjustified sense of being hard done by, but it will make absolutely no beneficial difference to the outfcone of the EBA and what you are offered.

You don’t seem to understand that the CEO you are dealing with is completely unfazed by ‘mongrel’ and ‘fight’ and other tough sounding negotiating tactics.


So why bother trying, hey?

Rated De
21st Jan 2019, 03:11
It might be nice to see so you can satisfy your unjustified sense of being hard done by, but it will make absolutely no beneficial difference to the outfcone of the EBA and what you are offered.

You don’t seem to understand that the CEO you are dealing with is completely unfazed by ‘mongrel’ and ‘fight’ and other tough sounding negotiating tactics.



With an adversarial industrial relations posture, a legal environment that gave substantial leverage to the employer as well as workplace legislation that has made more difficult withdrawing labour, Freehills (in Australia) made great money advising companies. Quite a few of their ilk sit on boards like Qantas. Testing the limit of Workplace legislation was something they helped Little Napoleon engineer in 2011. The only thing 'Fair' about the industrial relations umpire is the name. People are becoming aware of this everyday.

There is no need Justin, for inflammatory words. Mongrel and fight are hollow and outdated. Qantas is transformed.
That Little Napoleon still has a close personal protection team and likely gets scuttled away from a secure car park to a secure building in indicative that such a 'strategy' may have worked in that period, but demographics require no mongrel Justin, they are just demographics. Could he declare Qantas 'terminal' again? Maybe Mr Goyder has a different view.
Whether Karl and '60 minutes' do a puff piece about the 'epic hero myth battle' or not, in demographics is destiny: Qantas needs more pilots. Their subsidiaries do, their competitors do and the industry does. Their pilot body, like most airlines is aging. Smarter airlines have responded positively, improving terms and conditions to attract supply. Importantly they relate to their staff a bit differently too.

So save the inflammatory language for the time when the ASX is required to be updated on declining revenue and profit forecasts due crew shortage.

Back in the factual reality, retirement rates are increasing. The baby boomer retirement (post World War 2) is upon us. Aviation is no different.

Those of you in the 'Campus' ought be well aware, given the knowledge a campus allegedly contains Justin, that the recruitment, training and retirement model is strained. Not just at Qantas. That Qantas have spent considerable energy looking at measures to curbed a pronounced shortage is well known. That they can't fill the gap in the medium to long term is a fact that they and you Justin, desperately hope pilots in Australia and particularly those at Qantas never realise.

machtuk
21st Jan 2019, 03:14
The bosses want us fighting over who has the biggest pile of crumbs so we don’t realise they made off with the whole damn cake.

That about sums it up these days with any union based employee group. Management love the division within the ranks as it keeps the troops totally disorganized, inhouse fighting etc. resulting in a never ending merry-go-round of claims, counter claims & delays, all the while the money keeps rolling in!
'89 showed us what a mass decision (right or wrong) can achieve or not achieve, we will never see that again in Australian aviation, unity is simply not there & that's the one thing that is needed to break the backs of the grubby Airlines!
good luck to the boys & girls striving for better wages/conditions, I wish you all the best, am so glad I jumped ship a few years ago, I'd hate to be involved these days, it's just ugly:-(

titan uranus
21st Jan 2019, 06:05
Titian - thanks but then this site wouldn’t work very well would it?

Actually, it would work quite well in your case.

T-Vasis
21st Jan 2019, 08:51
Effectively putting the majority of Australia’s short haul pilots in a postition of leverage

The airline was grounded once before - it can be grounded again...

dragon man
21st Jan 2019, 09:09
The airline was grounded once before - it can be grounded again...

That involved other unions, a lockout over red ties, I don’t think you would get away with that twice.

ExtraShot
21st Jan 2019, 09:43
That involved other unions, a lockout over red ties, I don’t think you would get away with that twice.

Almost certainly not.


I seem to remember that the arbitrated result wasn’t at all that unfavorable for the pilots in the end. Quite a good result actually...

I wouldn’t guarantee an arbitration over Jetstar pilots merely asking for the same pay as Qantas pilots, for doing the same work, would work out in the company’s favor either.

dragon man
21st Jan 2019, 10:04
Almost certainly not.


I seem to remember that the arbitrated result wasn’t at all that unfavorable for the pilots in the end. Quite a good result actually...

I wouldn’t guarantee an arbitration over Jetstar pilots merely asking for the same pay as Qantas pilots, for doing the same work, would work out in the company’s favor either.



Agreed, I would take the risk before I’d take what AIPA were to offer.

CamelSquadron
21st Jan 2019, 14:32
Wouldn’t it be great if we could all act in unity as a group of professionals standing together in solidarity against the weight of MBA graduates and accountants that know the cost of everything yet the value of nothing.

PG



Now what a great idea.

So those in QF believe so strongly that QF and JQ should get paid the same.

So those in QF, should agree to take a pay cut for the difference between QF and JQ so that their comrades in JQ can be paid the same as those in QF. Now that would be a fair outcome. Now that would be standing together. Now that would be solidarity.

In the end, its all about self interest and greed on both sides of the fence.

Rated De
21st Jan 2019, 19:11
Now what a great idea.

So those in QF believe so strongly that QF and JQ should get paid the same.

So those in QF, should agree to take a pay cut for the difference between QF and JQ so that their comrades in JQ can be paid the same as those in QF. Now that would be a fair outcome. Now that would be standing together. Now that would be solidarity.

In the end, its all about self interest and greed on both sides of the fence.

In the end they are represented by two different bodies, thus any outcome is mutually exclusive.
Given a big part of the rapid expansion of JQ and resultant career opportunities it presented was 'industrial leverage', playing groups of people off against other at Qantas is standard fare.

Whether the JQ "business model" is anything more than a big IR game in disguise, may determine what 'cost base' it can sustain. Sadly for management of airlines world wide, a shortage of qualified, professional and available flight crew is now well known, so people being played off against each other is increasingly difficult to co-ordinate.

SHVC
21st Jan 2019, 19:34
Why is it so inconceivable for QF pilots to think JQ make any money?

Justin. Beaver
21st Jan 2019, 23:23
Almost certainly not.


I seem to remember that the arbitrated result wasn’t at all that unfavorable for the pilots in the end. Quite a good result actually...

I wouldn’t guarantee an arbitration over Jetstar pilots merely asking for the same pay as Qantas pilots, for doing the same work, would work out in the company’s favor either.








Exactly what part of the arbitrated result was good for the pilots? The pay rises given were no better than the pay rises given to other EBA work groups at that time, so it can’t be the pay.

Or do you mean the mean the introduction of “redeployment” - a big win for Qantas and change to seniority that aipa would never have agreed to.

How about the introduction of shared blank lines without the pilots getting a vote? Or the introduction of “postings”, which aipa would never have agreed to.

None of the key job security or group seniority aipa claims that were the entire point of the eba campaign were agreed to by fair work. Neither were any of aipa’s claims about pay rates for the 787, which makes it pretty obvious that they won’t arbitrate terms and conditions for any future types including 777 or A350.

A deal as good or better than the arbitrated deal would have been negotiable from day 1 instead of the protracted “campaign” of red ties and PAs and millions of dollars funding lawyers’ lifestyles and mortgages through legal feee.

If you think the long haul determination was a win for the pilots then you clearly do not understand its detail and its value as legal precedent that gives senior management huge certainty that makes them unafraid to end up there again.

The naivety on display here is enormous.

Ollie Onion
21st Jan 2019, 23:41
Of course it is reasonable for Jetstar pilots to get paid less than Mainline pilots, they are totally different business models. Low cost models would not exist if all the employees had to be paid the same as legacy carrier employees? Also the Qantas contracts have been evolving for decades, you can’t expect to catch up within 10 years. I work for Jetstar and would expect to have to go and join mainline if I want those rates of pay. No doubt there is room to improve our contract and for the company to be able to absorb that, but to be saying we want mainline pay is unrealistic and a waste of everyone’s time just the same as Tiger pilots claiming they should be paid the same as Virgin pilots.

dragon man
21st Jan 2019, 23:48
Exactly what part of the arbitrated result was good for the pilots? The pay rises given were no better than the pay rises given to other EBA work groups at that time, so it can’t be the pay.

Or do you mean the mean the introduction of “redeployment” - a big win for Qantas and change to seniority that aipa would never have agreed to.

How about the introduction of shared blank lines without the pilots getting a vote? Or the introduction of “postings”, which aipa would never have agreed to.

None of the key job security or group seniority aipa claims that were the entire point of the eba campaign were agreed to by fair work. Neither were any of aipa’s claims about pay rates for the 787, which makes it pretty obvious that they won’t arbitrate terms and conditions for any future types including 777 or A350.

A deal as good or better than the arbitrated deal would have been negotiable from day 1 instead of the protracted “campaign” of red ties and PAs and millions of dollars funding lawyers’ lifestyles and mortgages through legal feee.

If you think the long haul determination was a win for the pilots then you clearly do not understand its detail and its value as legal precedent that gives senior management huge certainty that makes them unafraid to end up there again.

The naivety on display here is enormous.

Yes, so naive as to not realise what a fantastic negotiated deal AIPA did for the pilots for the 787.

Justin. Beaver
21st Jan 2019, 23:55
You mean the one approved by 82% that has no shortage of bidders from the 330 and as opposed to the no deal on 787s from fair work?
You don’t seem to realise that the ceo is holding all the aces here because the naive decision to go to arbitration over job security has proven that fair work won’t be imposing pay rates for future types. He can therefore be confident that new types will only be introduced under terms that he agrees to. And he can’t afford to be seen to give in to industrial action.

dragon man
22nd Jan 2019, 00:39
Correct, the 82% of mugs who voted up a deal to get the back pay thinking they would never have to fly under it. Now it’s like finding someone who voted for Gough Whitlam no one wants to admit they voted up a deal that in the words of the CEO gave him 35% productivity.

HighFives
22nd Jan 2019, 00:42
Some inaccuracies (as expected) with respect to short haul QF vs JQ day to day...the reality is everyone is working hard, especially short haul on both sides.

Positive: This generally means plenty of opportunity to make extra $$ in overtime and top up the pretty reasonable pay scale across both left and right seats (in my opinion).
Not so: As for work-life balance...unfortunately remains very heavily dependant on your base - no amount of negotiating will really ever take the workload off the likes of SYD and MEL bases. Sorry, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. That’s business.

Can things be better - Always.

crosscutter
22nd Jan 2019, 00:46
The Fair Work Act provides ample protection. I hope Alan thinks he holds the aces. Time and time again we have seen recently where those ‘in power’ think like that, but the reality is the people have the power.

More likely JB, whilst you create valid discussion, you’re far from being accurate in your assessment.

These EBA’s are likely to be heavily negotiated, they are likely to be voted down at least once, maybe there will be no new aircraft arriving....so be it. The difference is that management will be required to make decisions in the face of industrial challenges without the ‘help’ of the industrial umpire. His 100 year celebration / parade is shaping to be an (expensive) industrial mess which is quite apt, as that is his legacy.

ps...every pilot deserves to be remunerated in line with market forces. I support those who push for better conditions in line with those forces.

Justin. Beaver
22nd Jan 2019, 00:57
So the 82% “mugs” (your words) who never thought they would fly it are now bidding to fly it? That makes sense.. I see that the 747 RIN Capts are all bidding for the 787 instead of the 330 where they would enjoy the benefits of strict seniority for bidding. Gee the 787 must be awful.

Regarding your Whitlam comment, did it ever occur to you that many pilots prefer not to disagree with a pilot who holds a strong industrial opinion like you do because they would rather not be in disgareement with their boss at work? Many times I’ve seen some IR expert pilot holding court about how screwed over he is with everyone kind of nodding along. As soon as he leaves, everyone else agrees with how out of touch he is. That might help you understand the 82%

ExtraShot
22nd Jan 2019, 00:59
Exactly what part of the arbitrated result was good for the pilots?

Pay, no worse than what they were going to get anyway, and better than what was being asked for (sure that was provided there was job security provisions which were a long shot anyway)

Shared blank lines, yes junior crew were devastated at this one. Devastated I tells ya.

Back pay, IIRC the company took it off the table and then were told they had to pay it anyway.

Indeed, The company had some wins as well, and after such a diabolically bad industrial campaign it wasn’t a necessarily a terrible outcome. ‘Quite good actually’ being Relative and perhaps flippant but still. It could have been far worse. It’s certainly not something AFAP should be afraid of.


No doubt there is room to improve our contract and for the company to be able to absorb that, but to be saying we want mainline pay is unrealistic and a waste of everyone’s time

No it’s not a waste of time, because if that’s what you ask for and fall short, chances are you’d be better off than otherwise. If you dont think you’re worth it or don’t have the fortitude for a bit of a struggle, then that’s up to you.

End of the day you get paid what you negotiate nothing more nothing less. If you are in a stronger bargaining position than the company you can expect to get a better deal

Yep. Good luck to AFAP and JQ crew. It’s nice to see a pilots Union that’s at least not afraid to ask.

dragon man
22nd Jan 2019, 01:12
So the 82% “mugs” (your words) who never thought they would fly it are now bidding to fly it? That makes sense.. I see that the 747 RIN Capts are all bidding for the 787 instead of the 330 where they would enjoy the benefits of strict seniority for bidding. Gee the 787 must be awful.

Regarding your Whitlam comment, did it ever occur to you that many pilots prefer not to disagree with a pilot who holds a strong industrial opinion like you do because they would rather not be in disgareement with their boss at work? Many times I’ve seen some IR expert pilot holding court about how screwed over he is with everyone kind of nodding along. As soon as he leaves, everyone else agrees with how out of touch he is. That might help you understand the 82%

The only problem with that comment is I don’t bring it up first they do. Secondly, the pilots going to the 787 off the 747 are going with a gun at their head, they can’t commute any more it’s become impossible, don’t believe me then ask them, they don’t want to go. Lastly, you don’t want to comment on the 35% productivity you gave away, I wonder why?

Justin. Beaver
22nd Jan 2019, 01:27
If they don’t want to commute then they can pick from 4 A330 bases and avoid the supposedly ‘appalling’ 787 and retain bidding seniority .

Re productivity - poductivity can be measured many ways. I have no idea how 35% was arrived at. Do you? The ceo might choose a figure that gives a high number so as to give a nice headline and send a signal to the market and other workgroups. I haven’t worked how more or less productive the 787 is. Even if 35% is accurate, it shows how unproductive the 747 and A380 might be since the CAO limits still apply to the 787.

Capt Colonial
22nd Jan 2019, 02:00
The only problem with that comment is I don’t bring it up first they do. Secondly, the pilots going to the 787 off the 747 are going with a gun at their head, they can’t commute any more it’s become impossible, don’t believe me then ask them, they don’t want to go. Lastly, you don’t want to comment on the 35% productivity you gave away, I wonder why?

That’s very true! Commuting is a dead rabbit nowadays for LongHaul Pilots. Domestic Staff Travel means nothing, whether you have three years’ service of 33 years! I know three Pilots who have jumped to the B-787 of recent as the commuting to and from Sydney became intolerable. You will see more of it too!

The lads I meet on the B-787 are not happy campers – a lot of that discomfort could be because the type is in a constant state of Training-Flux and the flying is needed for Training which disrupts a lot of patterns and lifestyles. Could also be that they work much harder to get their dollars and comparatively have less time-off after LongHaul operations. Fairly crappy deal when you analyse it in comparison to other LongHaul fleets!

When the B-787 Sydney Base opens, and Chicago hits the mix that may not help either as there is a load of Pilots about to be Rinned from the B-747.

I say go AFAP and colleagues at JQ for better pay and T & C's. Don’t trust AIPA is you first smart and strategic move! AIPA Executive’s and a few on the self-interest AIPA Committee have far too much in invested interests in seeing themselves as the third tier of Qantas Management or a historic Pathway to a Flight operations position… then working against their Colleagues!

busdriver007
22nd Jan 2019, 02:12
My view is for AFAP to go for it. The way AIPA are going the JQ pilots may very overtake the QF pilots. A lesson here to be learned is the JQ guys signed up to a deal and this was deliberately set up to undercut mainline and there were volunteers aplenty and now they want more. It is much more difficult to claw back conditions once they are given away. AIPA are in there FAAA phase where they think the only way to secure flying is to sell(or should I say GIVE conditions away!). One of the most stupid negotiations seen in my lifetime(except for 1989) was to give away the right to claim Overtime and NIght Credits in the next round of negotiations! (Who does that!) The problem the Jetstar pilots have as the mainline pilots have found out is that they can be undercut and the Company has Cobham and Network all set to do this. Stop the dog eat dog and start to work together for ALL pilots both present and future. The shortage will start to bite in the Regionals and work it's way into the various subsidiaries and pilots who want a career can go elsewhere. The only winner here is the Company if the pilots keep going down this path. Maybe the Former AIPA President will do well who knows but Qantas mid-level management has many dead bodies(especially in the Alan Joyce era).

Rated De
22nd Jan 2019, 02:20
Justin, have you moved?
Where is Elysium in relation to the Campus?

Justin. Beaver
22nd Jan 2019, 02:31
Rated De, it’s a fictional place similar the one where you and dragon man live.

busdriver, I say good luck to the AFAP too. The only 787 contract they have ever negotiated is significantly worse than the mainline 787 deal and their usual tactic of partial work bans may well play into management’s hands and drive an outcome far more serious than an arbitration. But I’m sure you’d have another multimillion dollar legal bill and $400 levy ready for that.

crosscutter
22nd Jan 2019, 03:10
The problem the Jetstar pilots have as the mainline pilots have found out is that they can be undercut and the Company has Cobham and Network all set to do this.

We have to stop thinking this. It is legally incorrect. Lower cost subsidiary growth cannot occur whilst the main entity shrinks. That is transfer of business against provisions in the Fair Work Act. It has not occurred to Qantas as a result of Cobham and Network (in a way that has shrunk Mainline.)

This thinking is entrenched in our psych because of (ironically) the introduction of Jetstar but that is a separate circumstance and even then I’m not sure it could be proven the Mainline flying was reduced as opposed to stalled.

For people that want more balance in my assertion here’s a bigger threat. QF start say SYD-NAN. To free up 737s, a subsidiary is given say MEL-CBR. Then after 12 months the Fiji route is deemed unsustainable and guess what...737s don’t automatically get MEL-CBR back.

Bushells1957
22nd Jan 2019, 04:30
Surely the B787 deal in the last LH EBA will go down in history as one of the most appalling sell outs of pilots ever.The hard won conditions that since 1966 have given a reasonable work/life/pay balance were thrown away.

The deal should have never been put to the vote or put to the vote with the recommendation it be rejected. The scare tactics put forward by AIPA were a disgrace when a better deal was obviously available. I am sure management could not believe the gullibility of pilots when it was voted up – high fives all round.

Is it correct that at least one involved from the union side has now got their reward with a company job? Thirty pieces of silver for Judas?

The next EBA must surely focus on repairing the damage to the LH contract or the future is very bleak. If people want rapid promotion with second rate pay and conditions they can work for one of the low cost carriers. Pilots want a work/life/pay balance that is sustainable for the long term.AIPA should be about dragging up pay & conditions, not dragging them down in a race to the bottom.

dragon man
22nd Jan 2019, 04:54
“Even if 35% is accurate, it shows how unproductive the 747 and A380 might be since the CAO limits still apply to the 787”

With a comment like that JB you show your true colours as been a management representative. I fly the line ,do my 850 stick hours a year , nothing fictional about it I can assure you.

Justin. Beaver
22nd Jan 2019, 05:09
“Even if 35% is accurate, it shows how unproductive the 747 and A380 might be since the CAO limits still apply to the 787”

With a comment like that JB you show your true colours as been a management representative. I fly the line ,do my 850 stick hours a year , nothing fictional about it I can assure you.

That’s great dragon. in the meantime there’s no shortage of bidders to the ‘appalling’ 787 including 747 Capts choosing it over not commuting and being senior on the A330.

They must be the 82% of your colleagues you sit next to but describe as ‘mugs’, while you 18% teacups cheer at the AFAP’s apparently amazing achievement of lodging an unrealistic log of claims in jetstar which they know has zero chance of success.

The same AFAP whose only 787 contract pays at least 30 or 40% less than the ‘appaling’ mainline 787 terms (including allowances and depending on rank). How impressive. Wake me up when they actually achieve something.

dragon man
22nd Jan 2019, 05:52
Just so I get this correct, a year 1 mainline 787 Capt earns $328 an hour. 6.5 bid periods per year at say 175 hours equals $372,000 a year. You say that the AFAP contract has the 787 pilots earning $223,000 (40% less). Can someone please confirm that as I find it hard to believe.

Swanrider
22nd Jan 2019, 06:08
So... another self righteous millenial "Beaver", living with all the other muppets in their self-titled Elysium, slings diatribe at the very people who enable HIM to put food on the table!
You muppets forget who actually generates the income, day or night, rain hail or shine, all around the globe on arduous and often fatiguing rosters... while you pricks smuggly sit with your fresh muffin, branded coffee & Mum's lunchbox by your side...
The saying of "Biting the hand that feeds you", comes to mind, Justin and the tables have turned now, with no "untapped labour market" to get 457's for the global pilot shortage; huge drop in applicant experience levels; pending retirements; Cadet Schools that can't get off the ground; aging and breaking fleet... the list goes on.

Something to ponder!

Capt Colonial
22nd Jan 2019, 06:18
That’s great dragon. in the meantime there’s no shortage of bidders to the ‘appalling’ 787 including 747 Capts choosing it over not commuting and being senior on the A330.

They must be the 82% of your colleagues you sit next to but describe as ‘mugs’, while you 18% teacups cheer at the AFAP’s apparently amazing achievement of lodging an unrealistic log of claims in jetstar which they know has zero chance of success.

The same AFAP whose only 787 contract pays at least 30 or 40% less than the ‘appaling’ mainline 787 terms (including allowances and depending on rank). How impressive. Wake me up when they actually achieve something.


Geeezz that Beaver bloke sounds like an interesting piece of work!

I agree with a few of the other posts on this thread. We would all be better off standing united.

Meanwhile, DragonMan have a look here: https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/doc...a/ae413585.pdf (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/ae413585.pdf)

130herc
22nd Jan 2019, 06:45
One does wonder, looking at his post history, how much JB's being paid to do this.

Probably less than the pilots though, considering how bitter he seems to be.

Rated De
22nd Jan 2019, 07:01
One does wonder, looking at his post history, how much JB's being paid to do this.

Probably less than the pilots though, considering how bitter he seems to be.

Devoid of fact, full of vitriol is a badge worn with pride in airline administrative facilities worldwide.

Interestingly Justin, the AFAP agreement with Commissioner Cribb's stamp was dated 21 April 2015.
That is almost four years ago.
Qantas hadn't been 'transformed' as Little Napoleon's options hadn't vested.

There was no pilot academy, We note that it has no facility, no aircraft, no instructors and is yet to turn out an 'airline ready product'
Their Network Aviation skilled shortage visa that the Stream Lead and others beaver away on (pun intended) is under subscribed, despite substantial signing bonuses (hint: far more than Network publicly detail)
Sources suggest the pilot retirement rates, as they are here in Europe and in the USA are catching them out. Particularly those pilots well short of 'expected retirement' dates, simply walking away.

Qantas leading from the rear, as Little Napoleon excels at, although dollars short and years late, is determined to control supply at a 'price' they grew accustomed to. They spend an enormous amount of time in Canberra Justin. Unfortunately, the rather large and growing realisation is that the market and industry moved on and a shortage is well established.

There are few laws in economics that actually hold Justin. One that does however is that to attract (induce additional )supply to match demand, price must increase.
Even hedge funds are looking at airline demographics and assessing retirement, retention and recruitment policies. For lack of pilots is a big problem, as generally the theory goes, that without pilots operating revenue drops close to zero. The open interest on the short side is an interesting metric to watch.
So before you dismiss the attempts to increase the input price Justin, it may be of more worth to sit back, do some reading and see what happens.

Just in case the Campus lacks external access to the internet, or indeed it filters results, here are a few articles you can read to update your information.




https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-22/airline-passengers-facing-perfect-storm-as-pilot-shortage-bites/10012624

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarcia/2018/07/27/a-perfect-storm-pilot-shortage-threatens-global-aviation-even-private-jets/#ea95cdb15492

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/airlines-pilot-shortage-cancelled-routes-2018-8?r=US&IR=T (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/airlines-pilot-shortage-cancelled-routes-2018-8?r=US&IR=T)

Justin. Beaver
22nd Jan 2019, 07:55
Rated, I’ll read your links once I can stop laughing at being accused of being full of vitriol by someone who has 900 posts full
of vitriol directed at the same people over and over and over again :ok:

V-Jet
22nd Jan 2019, 09:22
.... vitriol directed at the same people over and over and over again :ok:


Whilst I do not see RD’s posts as full of vitriol, if ‘the same people’ weren’t such self aggrandising, self enriching and completely incompetent managerial numpty’s, RD wouldn’t be able to make the same accusations ‘over and over’ - would he? I’m sure I’ve read something about guns and messengers somewhere....

Beer Baron
22nd Jan 2019, 11:28
Just so I get this correct, a year 1 mainline 787 Capt earns $328 an hour. 6.5 bid periods per year at say 175 hours equals $372,000 a year. You say that the AFAP contract has the 787 pilots earning $223,000 (40% less). Can someone please confirm that as I find it hard to believe.

Looks like it’s true.

If you add to your calculation for the Qantas Captain; STACR of ~$4000 and pay for sims, security and EP’s (passive credits) ~$11,000, you hit $387,000

According to the JQ EA (which I am no expert on) a 787 Capt there gets $228,927. So that is just less than 60% of a Qantas Captain’s pay on the same plane. If you look at year 4 pay it’s less than 55% of QF.

So AFAP have a MASSIVE task ahead of them if they want to get equivalent pay for JQ and QF 787 crew, about a 70% pay increase!!

That being said, I fully support them and I hope they get it, or close the gap as best as possible because it’s good for the whole industry.

But for those carrying on about how useless AIPA is, just take a look at those figures, realise how good you have it and pull your head in.

Rated De
22nd Jan 2019, 19:37
The saying of "Biting the hand that feeds you", comes to mind, Justin and the tables have turned now, with no "untapped labour market" to get 457's for the global pilot shortage; huge drop in applicant experience levels; pending retirements; Cadet Schools that can't get off the ground; aging and breaking fleet... the list goes on.


As the established airlines in Europe and the USA are fast learning, globalised labour works both ways.
They have also realised, albeit it belatedly, that their traditional adversarial employee relations model is not going to continue to attract sufficient applicants.

There is, rest assured, a lot of navel gazing in airline administrative offices world wide as the dawning realisation that unlimited supply of pilots is a thing of the past.
In the USA, the 1,500 hour rule is sighted by airlines, in a classical denial as the reason for the shortage, yet it is their own behaviour that actually, when combined with declining demographics (higher retirement rates) created the problem.
Faced with terms and conditions repeatedly hacked by aggressive management, huge self funded training costs and poor returns on a person's investment in both time and money, many potential pilots never even started the journey.

As Herb Kelleher remarked,


'A company is stronger if bound by love, rather than by fear'

Remuneration is part of the equation, airline management have hacked into labour unit costs with vigour. Respect for all staff, concern for well being and a shared vision that is lived were the bits of Southwest airlines like Ryan Air and Jetstar didn't bother with, yet they actually cost nothing. This is why although the labour unit cost at Ryan Air is lower than Southwest, the TFP at Southwest is higher.

Sincerity can't be faked, thus to dismantle whole offices and procedures all designed to keep the jack boot on the throat of pilots, engineers or ramp staff is no easy task. This takes time if there is an appetite for change.
At Qantas with Mr Oldmeadow dug in like a tick and a huge headcount in HR/IR this requires strong leadership to undo. Little Napoleon is not big enough to do that job. Fish rot from the head, he has set the tone for executive communication norms for over a decade.

Thus, given the shortage grows daily, in the short term, the only way airlines will attract an increased number of applicants with less global supply is to increase remuneration. That Qantas have attempted to induce supply with the expected responses, like flying schools and quietly lobbied for skill shortage visas is amusing as it has not done anything to alleviate the shortage. That the AFAP recognise it, the pilots recognise it and indeed worldwide the industry knows it, is encouraging.

gordonfvckingramsay
22nd Jan 2019, 20:08
5 stages of grief/loss:

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and accepatance.

It’s obvious that the airline industry are at stage one. When these CEOs start throwing the toys out of the pram, then we’ll know we’re getting somewhere. I’d be poking them with every stick I had if I were the unions! GO AFAP!

Sunfish
22nd Jan 2019, 21:21
Camelsquadron: In the end, its all about self interest and greed on both sides of the fence.]

When airline pilots are involved, add envy and snobbery to the mix.

Australian Airline management have proven themselves masters at employing those last two vices with devastating effect.

dragon man
22nd Jan 2019, 21:27
Management view of pilots , over paid, underworked and oversexed.

dragon man
22nd Jan 2019, 21:41
Surely the B787 deal in the last LH EBA will go down in history as one of the most appalling sell outs of pilots ever.The hard won conditions that since 1966 have given a reasonable work/life/pay balance were thrown away.

The deal should have never been put to the vote or put to the vote with the recommendation it be rejected. The scare tactics put forward by AIPA were a disgrace when a better deal was obviously available. I am sure management could not believe the gullibility of pilots when it was voted up – high fives all round.

Is it correct that at least one involved from the union side has now got their reward with a company job? Thirty pieces of silver for Judas?

The next EBA must surely focus on repairing the damage to the LH contract or the future is very bleak. If people want rapid promotion with second rate pay and conditions they can work for one of the low cost carriers. Pilots want a work/life/pay balance that is sustainable for the long term.AIPA should be about dragging up pay & conditions, not dragging them down in a race to the bottom.

Well summed up.

GWhizz
22nd Jan 2019, 22:34
The deal should have never been put to the vote or put to the vote with the recommendation it be rejected. The scare tactics put forward by AIPA were a disgrace when a better deal was obviously available. I am sure management could not believe the gullibility of pilots when it was voted up – high fives all round.

Is it correct that at least one involved from the union side has now got their reward with a company job? Thirty pieces of silver for Judas?


The AFAP is not immune from this type of thing either, 717 pilots had the rug pulled out from under them when the first real offer was made by their company. PIA was immediately abandoned without any consultation with the pilots, and with that any bargaining power was lost. The rumour was that someone was trying to ascend to a certain throne...

Good on the AFAP for (having the appearance of) having teeth, but by golly, hold them to account and don't let them be talked out of this aggressive stance. Contact your union officer in writing and ask some very probing questions about their intentions, make it known that you intend to use their response against them in the future if need be, and if it is a membership drive, may it be the end of them!

Beer Baron
22nd Jan 2019, 22:42
Surely the B787 deal in the last LH EBA will go down in history as one of the most appalling sell outs of pilots ever.
Yet it is 70% more money than the only other 787 contract in the country.

What an an utterly stupid and ignorant comment.

CaptCloudbuster
22nd Jan 2019, 22:49
The “82% Mugs” comment reeks of born to rule entitlement. Similar to HRC’s “Deplorables” categorisation in the US of A. As for the impossibility of commuting - no shortage of takers for that option in the Per LH Base.

ExtraShot
23rd Jan 2019, 00:14
Yet it is 70% more money than the only other 787 contract in the country.

I don’t have many problems with the QF LH contract, its a fairly healthy one, but this is patently wrong.

Read the JQ contract a bit further, just a few paragraphs down is all, and you’ll see Extra flying allowances, Highline allowances, day off payments etc. You’re making your statement quoting the JQ base rate against a fully fattened up QF rate, at a 175hr divisor no less, which is equivalent to the Jetstar Pilots doing 90 plus hours per month.

There is a difference but it’s nowhere near as big as you’re saying.

Derfred
23rd Jan 2019, 00:27
Good on the AFAP for (having the appearance of) having teeth, but by golly, hold them to account and don't let them be talked out of this aggressive stance. Contact your union officer in writing and ask some very probing questions about their intentions, make it known that you intend to use their response against them in the future if need be, and if it is a membership drive, may it be the end of them!

This.

It doesn’t take teeth to submit a wild log of claims, any fool can do that. It’s what comes later that counts. That takes a strong negotiating body and a strong support base. Only time will tell if either exists. It also takes smarts - do we have smarts? Are AFAP willing to work with AIPA on this? One would think that would be smart.

The Green Goblin
23rd Jan 2019, 00:45
As much as I’d like to see the unions work together, why would the feds even bother?

AIPA has less than 10% of the pilot group (80) at best. They have not submitted a log of claims. Have not done a survey to their members, and the reps are puppets to the com.

Yes, if you’re mainline AIPA is the main game.

Good on the feds. They’ve got the experience, the backend support, the resources and the pilot group numbers to do something good here.

Lets all eat cake :)

GWhizz
23rd Jan 2019, 01:00
They’ve got the experience, the backend support, the resources and the pilot group numbers to do something good here.

They also have a a close eye on the cost to benefit (to the AFAP) ratio. They will be keen to get some runs on he board as quickly and as cheaply as possible. They are not as far removed from those we fight as they would have us believe, the only difference being the fact we pay them for the privilege. It’s time to be very definite about who’s the boss as the trajectory of the industry depends on this and other EBAs currently under renewal.

Roller Merlin
23rd Jan 2019, 01:19
This thread should be renamed “Beavers and Camels go Rogue”.

Beer Baron
23rd Jan 2019, 01:59
ExtraShot, I acknowledge that I don’t have a good working knowledge of the JQ EA and I stated as much in my original post. There are definitely additions there that I have not included such as you listed. However the QF figure also does not include many additions such as ADTA/ODTA, working divisor +5, overtime (yes there is still overtime in some circumstances on the 787).
The 175 hour figure used is based on the actual current divisor in all bases. I don’t know what hours the JQ guys are doing.

The the difference may not be 70% but it’s pretty sizeable.

fringhtok
23rd Jan 2019, 02:21
So, a current first year QF 787 Capt is earning something very close to $390,000 per year. And there is a very vocal group (including one poster quoted on this thread) who are adamant at least 30% more pay was available. Of course, that claim can’t be tested. Anyone with half a brain knows it’s laughable and those subscribing to it are living in a fantasy land.

As to the OP statement, good luck them. I’ll certainly be watching with interest and hoping for the best!

ExtraShot
23rd Jan 2019, 02:27
ExtraShot, I acknowledge that I don’t have a good working knowledge of the JQ EA and I stated as much in my original post. There are definitely additions there that I have not included such as you listed. However the QF figure also does not include many additions such as ADTA/ODTA, working divisor +5, overtime (yes there is still overtime in some circumstances on the 787).
The 175 hour figure used is based on the actual current divisor in all bases. I don’t know what hours the JQ guys are doing.

The the difference may not be 70% but it’s pretty sizeable.


I understand that. But it’s nowhere near 70%, not even remotely close. 175 hr divisors shouldn’t be the norm anyway given planning divisor for the 787 is about 20 hrs lower... (correct establishments for a different thread perhaps!?). But let’s start by doing the QF calculation there rather than the extremes.

A quick back of envelope calculation With comparable hours the difference would be 15-20 %, if that, probably widening a bit if both groups are on minimium hours. We have divisor plus 5, they have VERY lucrative day off payments (this could close the gap significantly if you were prepared to do it), we have odta they have highline if they choose...

So I don’t think it’s totally outlandish for them to ask for the gap to be closed,( nor do I necessarily think it will be), but if you don’t ask you won’t get.

Tuner 2
23rd Jan 2019, 02:44
Back of the envelope figures for minimum guaranteed pay excluding all allowances, ADTA/ODTA, super, bonuses, day off payments, unplanned overtime and divisor + 5 payments:

Jetstar minimum pay: $228,927. Throw in a very generous 1500 hours of high-line at $12.37/duty hour = $248,482 . (I think 1150 duty high line hours is probably more realistic which would make this 243,152).

Qantas year 1 rates minimum pay: 6.5 x 145 + 33 hours passive for training = 975.5 x 327.82 hourly rate + fixed STACR of about $4600 / year = $324,390 = the JQ minimum with 1500 hrs high line plus 30%. At planning divisor of 155 this rises to $345,696 excluding all allowances, ADTA/ODTA and super. At 175 max divisor plus training and STACR = $388,313 Note that these 145, 155and 175 divisors are credit not stick hours.

Qantas year 4 rates minimum pay: 6.5 x 145 + 33 hours passive for training = 975.5 x 353.03 hourly rate + fixed STACR of about $4600 / year = $348,980 = the JQ minimum with 1500 hrs high line plus 40.5%. At planning divisor of 155 this rises to $367,327 excluding all allowances, ADTA/ODTA and super. At 175 max divisor plus training and STACR = $417,821. Note that these 145,155 and 175 divisors are credit not stick hours.

You would need to be working close to CAO/EBA limits to be doing 175 hour credit hours divisors for the year, just as as JQ pilots would be need to be doing well over 75 hours per roster period to start making large gains on their pay.

Not an expert on the JQ EBA but the mainline allowances are linked to the top ATO allowance table (currently AUD 295 per day in USA/LHR/HKG) - not sure if the JQ is as well or to the lower table? AFAIK the JQ ADTA/ODTA numbers are also lower than mainline.

gordonfvckingramsay
23rd Jan 2019, 02:54
What's your argument ExtraShot, Turner 2?
Are you saying that QF pilots are over paid, JQ pilots are under paid, JQ pilots don't deserve the same pay as QF pilots?? Arguing over who gets what suggests you're missing the point a bit, or am I?

Tuner 2
23rd Jan 2019, 02:56
I don't have any particular points aside from actually doing the numbers for my own interest. If JQ pay can make the huge step up to the mainline pay then great for them.

gordonfvckingramsay
23rd Jan 2019, 03:00
But what's the point of comparing one airline to another when the battle lies between a pilot group that looks to be pushing back and an industry that has enjoyed a very long period of prosperity due to the denigration of the profession. I can see that comparing one EBA against another to find who is getting the worst deal somewhat of an own goal.

Tuner 2
23rd Jan 2019, 03:02
As I said, I was comparing for my own interest with all of the other discussion above not making the answer very clear to me. I don't think any of the basic calculations are top secret to anyone. They're public documents.

ExtraShot
23rd Jan 2019, 03:24
So I don’t think it’s totally outlandish for them to ask for the gap to be closed,( nor do I necessarily think it will be), but if you don’t ask you won’t get

To quote myself... and restate my point.

Again, best of luck to the JQ peoples.

Popgun
23rd Jan 2019, 04:17
Im sure no pilot at JQ, 787 or 320, seriously entertains the idea of achieving QF equivalent remuneration. Not that their fight is just about money...but when you delve down into the documents (and see their rosters) you can see that JQ pilots are working a hell of a lot harder (around a third harder) for base pay while still earning (roughly) a third less.

But good on AFAP and the JQ pilot group for trying to move off the bottom of the barrel towards an industry average. Even that will be a very steep hill to climb, requiring lots of cohesion, energy and determined resolve.

All Aussie pilots should be completely behind that. Go for it!

PG

JPJP
23rd Jan 2019, 04:18
I don’t have many problems with the QF LH contract, its a fairly healthy one,
Are you high ? QF LH Pilots are being paid less than Southwest 737 pilots (It’s a low cost carrier). Australian pilots are paying more taxes. Hopefully your union has a more accurate comparative proposal.

but this is patently wrong.Read the JQ contract a bit further, just a few paragraphs down is all, and you’ll see Extra flying allowances, Highline allowances, day off payments etc. You’re making your statement quoting the JQ base rate against a fully fattened up QF rate, at a 175hr divisor no less, which is equivalent to the Jetstar Pilots doing 90 plus hours per month.

There is a difference but it’s nowhere near as big as you’re saying.

On the other hand - At least you read more than one page, perhaps you’re teachable.

CurtainTwitcher
23rd Jan 2019, 05:27
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the differing expectations of time for promotion. Qantas has been 20 years to command until very recently, slowly dropping back toward the long term expectation of 15 years. There were many (around 10%) that took a leave of absence to gain a command or an FO upgrade in the Middle East & Asia. Many junior QF longhaul pilots genuinely faced the prospect of redundancy for many years

Time to command in Jetstar when growth was ramping up? Five years, and certainly less than ten years. Getting to the LHS of a at least an A320 / B737 provides career protection that an FO or SO doesn't have.

Very few are complaining that they are the LHS when some of their ab initio training buddies are only just a window seat.

Everything is a tradeoff, there is always a price to pay. You can have rapid promotion or terms and conditions, but you can't have both.

Rated De
23rd Jan 2019, 07:27
QF LH Pilots are being paid less than Southwest 737 pilots (It’s a low cost carrier). Australian pilots are paying more taxes. Hopefully your union has a more accurate comparative proposal.


That is true. When purchasing power parity deflates the gross number it is by a substantive amount.

ExtraShot
23rd Jan 2019, 23:46
Are you high ? QF LH Pilots are being paid less than Southwest 737 pilots (It’s a low cost carrier). Australian pilots are paying more taxes. Hopefully your union has a more accurate comparative proposal.



On the other hand - At least you read more than one page, perhaps you’re teachable.

That’s cute. Perhaps you can teach me about an Agreement anywhere in Australia the provides for currency movements relative to the US dollar, their industry’s US counterparts, or respective differences tax rates between here and the US? Then point me toward a better Pilot contract anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere?

It it seems the 2500 odd who currently work for QF aren’t in a rush to leave, there are currently hundreds trying to get in, and now add another 1000 plus JQ pilots who think those conditions are worth asking for as well. More fool them.

Popgun
24th Jan 2019, 01:23
Indeed. Benchmarking against a foreign pilot's remuneration would be scoffed at by a FW Commissioner.

If that was a plausible tactic management would be trying to benchmark our pay against the pilots in Angola, Bangladesh or Cambodia!

As the gold standard pilot contract, QF mainline pilot negotiation tactics will never be able to rely on benchmarking for contract improvements. Its obviously a different story for all the other pilot groups in Australia in attempting improvements.

PG

busdriver007
24th Jan 2019, 03:22
Indeed. Benchmarking against a foreign pilot's remuneration would be scoffed at by a FW Commissioner.

If that was a plausible tactic management would be trying to benchmark our pay against the pilots in Angola, Bangladesh or Cambodia!

As the gold standard pilot contract, QF mainline pilot negotiation tactics will never be able to rely on benchmarking for contract improvements. Its obviously a different story for all the other pilot groups in Australia in attempting improvements.

PG
After the lockout at the Determination Qantas claimed the QF pilots were the highest paid pilots in the world. That did not stop the Full Bench awarding payrises of 3% per annum (average) over the next 3 years. Mind you everyone stop listening to Olivier Wirth years ago.

leakyboats
2nd Feb 2019, 05:08
Any truth to the rumour that AIPA didn’t commence negotiations prior to the middle of January as required by the Jetstar agreement? Seems like AIPA have gone rogue.:ooh:

Wear the Foxhat
4th Feb 2019, 19:31
Any truth to the rumour that AIPA didn’t commence negotiations prior to the middle of January as required by the Jetstar agreement?

Looks about right.

EA UPDATE

Your bargaining team will meet with the Company on 7th February to kick off official meetings. Darren Fielder (AIPA Vice President, Group Airlines) and Andrew Ward will once again be leading the negotiations. Joining them will be AIPA Committee of Management members Brent Rooke and Phil Peatfield.

We would also like to welcome Andrew Robins, Dominic Corcoran and Simon Gould who all bring a diverse range of experience and have volunteered their time to assist the EA team during this important process. As always, the EA team will be supported by the vast experience of the AIPA Legal and Industrial team, the Qantas long and short haul bargaining teams (including previous negotiators) and external specialists.

The team is currently finalising our list of issues. We will not be presenting a “log of claims” to the Company as we are adopting an interest-based bargaining approach. Our approach will involve presenting and discussing with the Company the issues members have identified in the survey as issues they seek to resolve and improve upon. Bargaining will be about finding solutions with the Company regarding issues raised.

The EA team will send out updates following every bargaining meeting so please look out for one following the 7th of February.

If you wish to contact any of the bargaining team, please email us at [email protected]

JQ EA Team

chickoroll
11th Feb 2019, 07:34
Latest AFAP email informing us the company is going for reduced days of! The company tell us they are working on work life balance etc. B/S on that.

Berealgetreal
11th Feb 2019, 07:45
What are your current days off?

chickoroll
11th Feb 2019, 21:03
132 Calender year.

Berealgetreal
11th Feb 2019, 22:39
Not terrible, assume annual leave on top? I think VARA, Tiger and QF have less but I’m not sure. Wouldn’t be giving up any conditions or days off.

73qanda
12th Feb 2019, 02:43
In this environment you guys should be getting an obvious improvement in lifestyle, or an obvious improvement in remuneration, or a slightly less impressive improvement in both, but giving up any of either should be off the table from the start.
What is the feeling on the line as to which is most important? Lifestyle ( read sleep), or cash?

gordonfvckingramsay
12th Feb 2019, 08:50
73qanda there are still people who believe the sky is falling and the industry is about to go into total collapse if we fail to give away our lifestyle and pay simultaneously, but I think the attitude is changing and fast and many are saying both are important. They’ve seen every cent of our pay and conditions surrendered in recent times wind up in our fearless leaders bonus; enough is enough!

leakyboats
14th Feb 2019, 06:26
While our team continues to review AFAP’s claims carefully, we explained that the 13 key claims relating to wages would add almost 50 per cent to our pilot labor wage cost, which is simply unsustainable.

Message to Dean

A 50% pay rise puts my wage just north of $200,000. Have a look at what they pay widebody first officers over at VA and QF. While you’re at it, have a look at how many days off they get in comparison.

If you think my union is being unreasonable, you need to have a hard look outside your head office bubble and visit the coalface.

You can jam 3%

cLeArIcE
14th Feb 2019, 10:48
Message to Dean

A 50% pay rise puts my wage just north of $200,000. Have a look at what they pay widebody first officers over at VA and QF. While you’re at it, have a look at how many days off they get in comparison.

If you think my union is being unreasonable, you need to have a hard look outside your head office bubble and visit the coalface.

You can jam 3%
​​​​​​
Can't put it any better than that ... :D

FightDeck
14th Feb 2019, 11:03
Good luck to the AFAP, other representatives and all Jetstar pilots.
Many decent conditions in contracts around the globe only arose from those that stood up and negotiated
well. If you gave away in good times and bad you’d eventually have nothing.
The Group is exceptionally profitable. Plenty of bonuses for Alan and co the last few years.
Just hope your AFAP president doesn’t do a sh&$# deal for pilots, then switch teams and work for Jetstar negotiations against you.
Don’t be weak like AIPA, fall for false threats and negotiate deals that go backwards from those hard fought and won.
Every pilot group gains when we improve everyone’s contracts.
Good luck guys and gals.

SHVC
14th Feb 2019, 19:04
Why are JQ Pilots members of AIPA anyway?

ANCDU
14th Feb 2019, 20:48
Why are JQ Pilots members of AIPA anyway?

let me guess....because they weren’t happy with the representation given by AFAP or were concerned by their past performance. Which union set up the initial Jetstar agreement to which Jetstar pilots have had to try and get improvements from ?

Berealgetreal
14th Feb 2019, 23:59
Both Tiger and Jetstar pilots look to be going down the path Ryanair pilots went down last year. Maybe the game is up. Mate of mine works at JQ said he couldn’t possibly continue working there til 60, max hours all the time he’s exhausted and quite frankly looks f$$#d. Out of our group of friends he’s aged the most.

FightDeck
15th Feb 2019, 00:37
Both Tiger and Jetstar pilots look to be going down the path Ryanair pilots went down last year. Maybe the game is up. Mate of mine works at JQ said he couldn’t possibly continue working there til 60, max hours all the time he’s exhausted and quite frankly looks f$$#d. Out of our group of friends he’s aged the most.

Exactly. The promotion is lovely as is the shiny new toy.
However it’s different doing a few years of intense flying when your younger.
But what happens if you have 10,15,20 years of it?
What if you are 50? Or 60?
Its culmulative.
What if you fly a lot of night sectors back of the clock, jetlag, early starts .
You can’t make money or promotions a substitute for health.
Yes they matter but health is just as important.

dragon man
15th Feb 2019, 00:55
Exactly. The promotion is lovely as is the shiny new toy.
However it’s different doing a few years of intense flying when your younger.
But what happens if you have 10,15,20 years of it?
What if you are 50? Or 60?
Its culmulative.
What if you fly a lot of night sectors back of the clock, jetlag, early starts .
You can’t make money or promotions a substitute for health.
Yes they matter but health is just as important.
,'k

Well said but not appreciated by many.

Berealgetreal
15th Feb 2019, 05:02
I see this being a big one as Uncle Alan isn’t accustomed to not getting his way on one end and on the other the JQ guys I know feel they’ve got nothing to lose.

blow.n.gasket
15th Feb 2019, 07:31
“When backed into a corner, a victim has two options: he can lie down and die, or, he can fight regardless of the odds.”
― Marc Schiller, Pain and Gain - The Untold True Story (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/24156288)

Ollie Onion
16th Feb 2019, 02:40
Yea right, Jetstar won’t be afraid of this, the pilot group is fractured and will never show any solidarity in the pursuit of a common goal.

blow.n.gasket
16th Feb 2019, 03:47
Exactly Ollie , why do you think we have this Qantas HR/IR driven , fractured tribalisation of the pilot groups ?
Not to mention the management sponsored 5 columnists seeded into the representative industrial bodies designed to obstificate solidarity !