View Full Version : Course structure and integration ORA.ATO.125

19th Jan 2019, 08:49
Dear Fellow pilots,

I would like to ask you about PPL course organisation and hour distribution for a small non complex ATO or DTO.

We are trying to redo our manuals and to improve our implementation of the course, mostly the theory part, It is not easy as at my club we are a few part timers.

So far we have used common sense and the availability we have for class distribution but most manual forms indeed ask you to specifcy a number of "weekly and monthly hours".

None of this is specificaly stated in supart ORA.ATO.125 at least that I've seen, neither I've seen mentioned anywere maximum number of daily hours for students, to which obviously subpart FTL does not apply, for other schools I see varies between 4 and 8.

As always, I will be looking forward to your guidance!

I appreciate your help.


19th Jan 2019, 17:12
What EASA don't seem to realise is that people go to a flying club to learn to fly, they have no idea what licences exist, let alone what they might want and at that stage and have no intention of enroling or embarking upon an integrated course. They will turn up when they can afford it; have time and the weather is good.

In the case of an ATO conducting more advanced training, you invariably have targeted individuals who wish to complete a specific course of training in an efficient organised manner at the lowest possible price. It is for that reason that the FFA told EASA to stop the ATO nonsense with PPL training, so why are you looking at going down this route for PPL? The DTO requires no manuals just a published training program. You simply can't put together a course for people who turn up every 4 weeks so why bother trying?

Big Pistons Forever
20th Jan 2019, 00:58
I disagree with Whopity.

Flight training works best if it is structured in a coherent and consistent way. Whether the student shows up every day or once a month, they should know what they are going to be taught, what the expectations are for success for that lesson are and what level of proficiency will be required to move to the next lesson.

Transport Canada publishes a free Flight Instructor guide with a PPL syllabus and lesson plans for each air exercise. Google it and see what you think. There is no need to re-invent the wheel.

20th Jan 2019, 06:41
I don’t think Whopity is suggesting that students shouldn’t know what they’re going to be taught or in what order the exercises will be taught in or not be told what the completion standards are. In the UK, since pretty much forever there has been a PPL syllabus based on the RAF central flying school syllabus, with exercises starting with air experience and effects of controls and building on those exercises in a logical manner. I think he is just saying that this already exists, so why make things complicated if you don’t have to, for PPL students who are just flying for a hobby and to enjoy themselves. As BPF said, why try to reinvent the wheel.

20th Jan 2019, 06:44
I don’t think Whopity meant no structure or manuals - his point is that some of the requirements for ATO manuals are way over the top for a PPL course.

A defined training programme by day - maximum hours per week, rest periods etc are not so relevant in “fun flying” , predefined nav routes etc.

20th Jan 2019, 09:10
BPF Flight training works best if it is structured in a coherent and consistent way. Indeed it does and PPL training in Europe has always had more structure that it has on your side of the Atlantic. That is not the issue, we have about 5 different books containing a structured syllabus, but under European rules, the training provider, an ATO, has to provide a series of documents, micromanaged to the point that permission to go to the toilet would take at least 2 years, which can be made to work for a short course, but does not take into account the transient nature of PPL training. The French FFA (equiv to AOPA) aware of this issue demanded a simpler approach eliminating much of the bureauracy and allowing PPL training to be conducted using one of the agreed syllabi. This is refered to as a DTO. Note, you don't need any sort of organisation in your part of the World where an instructor is trusted to do what he is qualified to do. If the EU had existed in 1492 you would not have been discovered and would still be one of us!

10th Feb 2019, 19:19
Sorry I am a little late, :ugh:

Thanks Whopity and everyone for all for the responses and excellent points!

Fly safe.