PDA

View Full Version : Grapes in wartime England


Franek Grabowski
19th Jan 2019, 01:03
Gents
Before anyone asks. This is an aviation related question - I am trying to make an approximate date of an event described.
What was the source of grapes in England in 1940-1941 timeframe? I guess imports were limited if any. If homegrown, at what period of year would they appear in shops? It seems they were luxurious, could fetch £1/ 5 shillings a bunch, but that is about all I can find.
Thanks
Franek

thegypsy
19th Jan 2019, 07:45
Grapes for wine are harvested in UK in October. Guess eating varieties would be slightly earlier?

meleagertoo
19th Jan 2019, 12:13
Traditionally dessert grapes seldom ripen well or reliably in England, even the most modern varieties (unavailable in 1941) cannot be relied upon today. Dessert grapes are all but unknown as a UK commercial crop to this day, I imagine the only growers back then would have been vanity growers like stately homes - and perhaps one or two specialists, all in big greenhouses. Few if any of those would have come onto the market.
There was plenty of merchant shipping trade throughout the war so it's quite possible some enterprising owners/skippers filled up corners of their holds with high-value goods. Sailors have always taken advantage of such opportunities, and at over a pound per bunch this would have been a winner I suspect.

Pontius Navigator
19th Jan 2019, 12:29
My grandfather had a bungalow in Staines. He had a large orchard, raised chickens, and had a greenhouse with grapes inside. I think private growing was not as rare as you might expect.

We grew desert grapes in the open. They ripened in October.

Self loading bear
19th Jan 2019, 14:32
Would grapes by airfreight from Portugal be an option?
I would have no clue from which country sailors/ships could have shipped the grapes and still arrive fresh in Great -Britain in those days.

SLB

Allan Lupton
19th Jan 2019, 15:36
I have never heard of dessert grapes being grown commercially in the UK then (or even now). SLB shows his (lack of) age as that use of air freight was many years in the future!
My memory of the period just after the war is the gradual restoration of luxury (i.e. imported) foodstuffs in the shops - we had a farm during the war so I didn't see the fruit shops because we grew our own. However my parents had been (fruit-)farming in South Africa previously and one of their neighbours sent us food parcels during the war which could have contained some fresh fruit (robust things such as oranges) but were mostly dried fruit. It is quite possible that the grapes Franek is interested in came from South Africa, in which case I suggest they'd be in UK shops in March-April.

Franek Grabowski
19th Jan 2019, 16:56
Thanks! Yes, those SA grapes would make sense, many thanks!
BTW
Individual fruit air freight did exist, actually, when some small quantities of fruits were brought by airmen or passengers, but of course not on commercial basis. I recall an account of an airman struggling with a big bag of oranges in the cockpit of his Spitfire flown to a remote desert airfield.

Self loading bear
19th Jan 2019, 17:38
Thats what I meant privatly brought by air men.
There were refrigerant ships in those days but I think only freezing or at least not for riping fruits.

SLB

Franek Grabowski
20th Jan 2019, 17:25
I have found that on the internet.
In February of 1889, a cooling chamber was installed on the RMS Grantully Castle, and in Cape, about fifteen tons of grapes were loaded into this chamber. But, for couple of reasons this shipment did not arrive in London in good conditions. The temperatures were kept too cold for fruits, and the wrong kinds of grapes were chosen for shipments.
So I guess that the methods of transport improved by 1940.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any information about wartime food shipping from South Africa. I guess that Portugal is the only other option, with harvest of wine grapes during September.

Self loading bear
20th Jan 2019, 19:04
This turns out to be a interesting thread.
As my back ground is in shipbuilding I just was learned a lesson
about the history of refrigeration ships.
I found an PDF from 160 years of South African perishable goods.
- They shipped grapes to UK before WW2.
- Exports ceased 1941.

South african fruit exports (https://ppecb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/160-Years-of-Export.pdf)

I have no details on transit times but i think about a month.
I do not have knowledge of the harvest months of the kind of grapes suitable for refrigerated ship transport.
But this could detail the year.

SLB

So this could detail the year.

Franek Grabowski
21st Jan 2019, 05:51
Yes, it was interesting to learn that the refrigeration ships were so old. I wonder what cooling agent was used.
Anyway, I have searched through old newspapers. No SA grapes appear, just oranges and grapefruits. It seems that the grapes were English indeed, harvested between Augost and October. I find a note that grapes from royal vineyard were handed over to hospitals treating wounded airmen. English Muscat grapes were quite expensive, from about 2 to even 4 shillings.