for what's it worth

[slack]

I was fortunate Sept.1970 to enter the airline industry in Canada. Seems like a long time ago ( it was ). If you made the interview, training (DC8) was free and if you kept your nose clean for a year you were in. Initial pay wasn't great but quickly improved with years and seat changing.

Today not so much. Pay to fly ( you got to be joking ) cost of training and salaries unbelievable. Working conditions border on slavery and criminal.

Push button computer flying as appose to hands and feet connected to a brain is frightening. And yes I did fly some of the airbus magic carpets towards last of career. Yes I did have a fairly pleasant career. Today if my kid expressed an interest in aviation I would stick a pencil in his/her eye. They would eventually thank me.

Today climbing on an airplane as a pax gives me the willies. It would have to be life or death or an extremely good looking female to make me consider becoming a pax. Really a sad reflection.

Rant over, don't feel a whole lot better. Easy chair much more pleasant the 1A pointy end. Keep them in the air however as a pension check firmly attached to the industry.

[hans brinker]

I was fortunate Sept.1970 to enter the airline industry in Canada. Seems like a long time ago ( it was ). If you made the interview, training (DC8) was free and if you kept your nose clean for a year you were in. Initial pay wasn't great but quickly improved with years and seat changing.

Today not so much. Pay to fly ( you got to be joking ) cost of training and salaries unbelievable. Working conditions border on slavery and criminal.

Push button computer flying as appose to hands and feet connected to a brain is frightening. And yes I did fly some of the airbus magic carpets towards last of career. Yes I did have a fairly pleasant career. Today if my kid expressed an interest in aviation I would stick a pencil in his/her eye. They would eventually thank me.

Today climbing on an airplane as a pax gives me the willies. It would have to be life or death or an extremely good looking female to make me consider becoming a pax. Really a sad reflection.

Rant over, don't feel a whole lot better. Easy chair much more pleasant the 1A pointy end. Keep them in the air however as a pension check firmly attached to the industry.


If it makes you feel any better:
20 years in, 15 more to go. Just flew a leg into msp, AP AT FD off from 10K on an A320. There is still a lot of pilots out there.

Oh, fatality rates right now are about 10% of when you were ruling the air.

[Callsign Kilo]

I was fortunate Sept.1970 to enter the airline industry in Canada. Seems like a long time ago ( it was ). If you made the interview, training (DC8) was free and if you kept your nose clean for a year you were in. Initial pay wasn't great but quickly improved with years and seat changing.

Today not so much. Pay to fly ( you got to be joking ) cost of training and salaries unbelievable. Working conditions border on slavery and criminal.

Push button computer flying as appose to hands and feet connected to a brain is frightening. And yes I did fly some of the airbus magic carpets towards last of career. Yes I did have a fairly pleasant career. Today if my kid expressed an interest in aviation I would stick a pencil in his/her eye. They would eventually thank me.

Today climbing on an airplane as a pax gives me the willies. It would have to be life or death or an extremely good looking female to make me consider becoming a pax. Really a sad reflection.

Rant over, don't feel a whole lot better. Easy chair much more pleasant the 1A pointy end. Keep them in the air however as a pension check firmly attached to the industry.


Good for you. Enjoy retirement.

[calypso]

Some would argue the autopilot is never truly off in an airbus

[speedrestriction]

Today climbing on an airplane as a pax gives me the willies.

This is more likely down to personal psychological factors.

As has been previously stated, accident rates are far lower now than 40 years ago - some of this is down to more reliable aircraft, much is also down to a shift in attitude on the flight deck - thankfully (by and large) ego on the flight deck is dead and buried as is risk taking behaviour. I would send my family away on any of my employer’s several hundred aircraft on any day of the week in complete confidence - the system works.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The statistics are showing a clear improvement in terms of safety. Your concerns are without substance.

[macdo]

Judging by some of the experiences I have heard from independent TRE's TRI's working for certain European Lo Cost operators, the only thing keeping the accident rate down IS the fact that the autopilot is never really disconnected from an Airbus! Only time will tell.

[speedrestriction]

I agree with some of the sentiment that crew are overly reliant on technology but I think the onus is very much on skippers to lead from the front and show the younger folk who have started their careers directly onto a bus or a 737 that manually flown visual and instrument approaches are straightforward and rewarding - even more so without auto thrust and flight director. If the junior crew observe nothing other than AP in at 500’ and AP out at 500’ then they will copy. If they see competence and confidence in AP/FD/AT off operations they will strive to achieve the same.

[zeddb]

Some would argue the autopilot is never truly off in an airbus

So what? its a routine job at the end of the day not landing on the moon or shooting down enemy fighters. The emphasis is safety in a busy environment and automation generally increases that.

To be honest, after more than 20 years in the industry, I would far rather let the automatics take the heavy lifting, especially at the end of a long day in filthy weather into a busy airport so that I can watch the big picture and/or monitor the other guy. If push comes to shove then you have to do it manually but even then I'm very glad to have some envelope protection and hopefully managed speed. Casting off all the automation to prove what a hero you are decreases spare capacity and puts a load of pressure on your oppo for no good reason. The place to practice being a sky god is the simulator so that you can do it if all else fails. The aim in commercial aviation is to get off and go home at days end, not tea and medals in the mess.

I rather suspect that the 787 has more similarity to the Airbus models than Boeing will admit as they claim "pilot centered" as part of their sales pitch. And before I get flamed, I have flown Boeings large and small for longer than I care to remember and have only recently gone back onto the bus. And very nice it is too.

The fact that new entrants go straight onto A320/737 is just the way the world works. They might not have years of experience but they can usually fly far better than I can and regularly demonstrate it in the sim, which IMHO is the place to do it.

[pudoc]

I'd much rather be on an easyJet Airbus in 2019 than a Canadian DC8 in the 70s. Did someone say Air Canada 621?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada_Flight_621

[joe falchetto 64]

I shall say that this never ending debate of Airbus vs Boeing is starting to annoying me. I started flying around 35 years ago, military engine fast jet, single pilot, low level attack bomber, 1960 technology (!) that meaned to fly with compass and clock below 500 ft at 400 knts in a very continuously changing environment (mountains and rivers, clouds and rain and fog). After that, B 707 tanker (no, not the KC 135, the real B 707 320 C, training done in Air France Training Center and Lufthansa Training Center). After quitting the Air Force flying club, I flew commercially the B 737 (either the classic, 300 and 400 than the NG for few flight hours) the MD 82/83/88 and the A 320/321, the last one till today as a matter of fact. Unfortunately I did miss any wide body experience, but I have been lucky enough to fly all around the world also in some strange places and to have experienced different kind of flying ( low level, aerobatic, test flight, commercial, flight instructor, TRI and TRE). That said, I am now really happy to fly the A 320: it took me a little bit to adapt with open mind to the aircraft features and characteristics, and took me around 1500 flight hours to change from the newbie A 320 captain ("What is this aircraft doing!") to the average A 320 captain ("Ah, he is doing that again"). He is comfortable, flies very well, and it is a pleasure to fly manually; someone argues that the autopilot is nor really disengaged in any Airbus, but that is true of every fly-by-wire aircraft: ever tried the F 18?. So please, stop with this debate: I like the Boeing wide-bodies as well as the A 350 XWB, and for me the B 737 is a pleasure to fly manually but it is a pain in the a** when it comes to 4 sectors in a long and foggy or raining or windy day.

[six string]

If he says it’s so, it must be so!

Others aren’t allowed to differ.

[stoneangel]

personnally I enjoy this job nowadays. Yes I push button and managing a machine, but the job seems a lot easier than before. Do I want to fly a NDB, manually on a old plane ? no way.
Being paid while watching TV's , earth from the sky, and enjoying a coffee, let's face it : it is awsome.
I would never change this job against another one in a factory under neon light.

[filejw]

personnally I enjoy this job nowadays. Yes I push button and managing a machine, but the job seems a lot easier than before. Do I want to fly a NDB, manually on a old plane ? no way.
Being paid while watching TV's , earth from the sky, and enjoying a coffee, let's face it : it is awsome.
I would never change this job against another one in a factory under neon light.

I enjoyed flying NDB approaches as it was different than the everyday ILS to an 12000 FT runway. Although I only spent two years on the A320 that was fun too . FYI anytime I found myself saying “what’s it doing now” usually was followed by the discovery of my mistake. 😎

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

While all this willy waving about flying around with AT/FD/AP disengaged is very impressive, it just isn't how our employers (or the people down the back come to that) really want it done is it. Infact having just converted onto another type very recently, I'm no longer allowed to disconnect the AT, which is taking some getting used to.

The role of a pilot has changed dramatically as the skies have got impossibly busy and the technology has advanced to the brink of being so complex that it's incompatible with humans. I absolutely LOVED doing my MEIR in the Beech Duchess many moons ago, poling around on basic instruments and tracking needles left right and centre. But frankly that's great when you'e doing 130kts with just yourself and a crusty old instructor to look out for. When you're flying something considerably larger, faster and more able to inflict large scale damage to others all this willy waving just becomes utter tosh.

I'll still fly manually when the conditions and workload permit but unless I'm doing a visual approach the FD and/or the FPV stay on. Even then it's a rare event to do a visual approach these days so best kept for the spare time in the sim at the end of a check. I'm big enough to admit my manual flying skills aren't what they were ten years ago and while that's a little bit sad, I would say other more relevant skills / competencies are substantially improved as I've adapted to the role of the pilot changing.

We're in the business of getting people and cargo from A to B in the safest manner possible and with the best will in the world, flying around manually in some effort to prove to ourselves we're still s*** hot aviators just ain't doing that. The very wise words of an instructor years ago have stayed with me....."what would the report say"....

"X was flying manually with no FD when they became distracted and flew through the cleared altitude leading to a TCAS RA."

Food for thought. Although I do miss that Beech Duchess!

[Shamrock49]

Personally I’d say we owe it to the passengers to be able to fly comfortably with the AT out and/or raw data. Otherwise the first time you may have to do it may be in an emergency situation, perhaps combined with bad weather at an unfamiliar airfield.

I’m not advocating we start flying into Belfast City with everything disconnected in marginal weather conditions, but I can’t understand the philosophy of not being able to take the AT out on a CAVOK day at home base.

[CEJM]

While all this willy waving about flying around with AT/FD/AP disengaged is very impressive, it just isn't how our employers (or the people down the back come to that) really want it done is it. Infact having just converted onto another type very recently, I'm no longer allowed to disconnect the AT, which is taking some getting used to.

The role of a pilot has changed dramatically as the skies have got impossibly busy and the technology has advanced to the brink of being so complex that it's incompatible with humans. I absolutely LOVED doing my MEIR in the Beech Duchess many moons ago, poling around on basic instruments and tracking needles left right and centre. But frankly that's great when you'e doing 130kts with just yourself and a crusty old instructor to look out for. When you're flying something considerably larger, faster and more able to inflict large scale damage to others all this willy waving just becomes utter tosh.

I'll still fly manually when the conditions and workload permit but unless I'm doing a visual approach the FD and/or the FPV stay on. Even then it's a rare event to do a visual approach these days so best kept for the spare time in the sim at the end of a check. I'm big enough to admit my manual flying skills aren't what they were ten years ago and while that's a little bit sad, I would say other more relevant skills / competencies are substantially improved as I've adapted to the role of the pilot changing.

We're in the business of getting people and cargo from A to B in the safest manner possible and with the best will in the world, flying around manually in some effort to prove to ourselves we're still s*** hot aviators just ain't doing that. The very wise words of an instructor years ago have stayed with me....."what would the report say"....

"X was flying manually with no FD when they became distracted and flew through the cleared altitude leading to a TCAS RA."

Food for thought. Although I do miss that Beech Duchess!

Every company I have flown for was more then happy to let us fly the aircraft manually with a/t off. They all understood that a couple of visual approaches at the end of a sim session is not really enough to keep your flying skills honed. Especially with the network we had were we had no choice but to do a visual aporoach as that was the only approach available.

I agree with you to keep in mind what the report would say but that also should not discourage people from flying the airplane manually at the right time and place.

[ollie135]

You had a good career- great.

Why bother coming on here to preach doom and gloom?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Every company I have flown for was more then happy to let us fly the aircraft manually with a/t off. They all understood that a couple of visual approaches at the end of a sim session is not really enough to keep your flying skills honed. Especially with the network we had were we had no choice but to do a visual aporoach as that was the only approach available.

I agree with you to keep in mind what the report would say but that also should not discourage people from flying the airplane manually at the right time and place.


We're simply not allowed to turn off the A/T on my new fleet. Infact the only fleet that still can is the Jumbo since the 767 went in November. There are places where we will do visual approaches, but I'll be using things to help me ie FPV and AT (the second out of necessity as mentioned above). Also, my new type is FBW and doesn't have the pitch power couple I'm so used to, it has a trim system I'm still getting used to and in Normal Flight Control Mode it doesn't feel like what I've grown up with. Even with everything off, it'll still take care of pitch power couple and sort of auto trim for you. I just accept my place and have fun in the sim whenever the chance arises.

And I certainly won't be flying raw data manual anything into LHR after spending all night flogging across the Atlantic. Right time and right place is absolutely nail on the head statement. My company also encourage manual flying when appropriate and I'm very happy to oblige but I won't be turning off basic levels of automation ie FD's. It's just not worth the paperwork if it goes wrong and I maintain you're degrading safety beyond that point, which I'm not prepared to do. Of course it's brilliant fun speaking as a pure pilot but I accept that the flight exists for a purpose and that purpose isn't my pure enjoyment...unfortunately. I'd love to keep up an MEP rating but it's just too expensive these days.

[hans brinker]

While all this willy waving about flying around with AT/FD/AP disengaged is very impressive, it just isn't how our employers (or the people down the back come to that) really want it done is it. Infact having just converted onto another type very recently, I'm no longer allowed to disconnect the AT, which is taking some getting used to.

The role of a pilot has changed dramatically as the skies have got impossibly busy and the technology has advanced to the brink of being so complex that it's incompatible with humans. I absolutely LOVED doing my MEIR in the Beech Duchess many moons ago, poling around on basic instruments and tracking needles left right and centre. But frankly that's great when you'e doing 130kts with just yourself and a crusty old instructor to look out for. When you're flying something considerably larger, faster and more able to inflict large scale damage to others all this willy waving just becomes utter tosh.

I'll still fly manually when the conditions and workload permit but unless I'm doing a visual approach the FD and/or the FPV stay on. Even then it's a rare event to do a visual approach these days so best kept for the spare time in the sim at the end of a check. I'm big enough to admit my manual flying skills aren't what they were ten years ago and while that's a little bit sad, I would say other more relevant skills / competencies are substantially improved as I've adapted to the role of the pilot changing.

We're in the business of getting people and cargo from A to B in the safest manner possible and with the best will in the world, flying around manually in some effort to prove to ourselves we're still s*** hot aviators just ain't doing that. The very wise words of an instructor years ago have stayed with me....."what would the report say"....

"X was flying manually with no FD when they became distracted and flew through the cleared altitude leading to a TCAS RA."

Food for thought. Although I do miss that Beech Duchess!

Our SOP has normal operating procedures for T/O with FD/AT off, and we are supposed to be proficient, as they are in the MEL, and I have flown without them. There is a requirement for AP on on low visibility approach, but only if it works. We are fully expected to be instrument proficient. Maybe it has changed for you, but not for me. I regularly switch every thing off, I do a lot of backside of the clock flying. That's not me waving my D***, that is me doing my job the way my company expects me to do it.

What would the report say? It said the investigator was astonished to find no one in the cockpit was able to control the aircraft after the autopilot failed.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Our SOP has normal operating procedures for T/O with FD/AT off, and we are supposed to be proficient, as they are in the MEL, and I have flown without them. There is a requirement for AP on on low visibility approach, but only if it works. We are fully expected to be instrument proficient. Maybe it has changed for you, but not for me. I regularly switch every thing off, I do a lot of backside of the clock flying. That's not me waving my D***, that is me doing my job the way my company expects me to do it.

What would the report say? It said the investigator was astonished to find no one in the cockpit was able to control the aircraft after the autopilot failed.

I started my career doing almost exclusively backside of the clock flying. The skies are very much queiter at night and the boxes didnt mind their G&T being spilled so providing you're not feeling dog tired, then great, crack on. But as I've said, it's a right place & right time decision. We've all got IR's so should all be very proficient on instruments, being "instrument proficient" has cock all to do flying manually.

And I'd also say that bigger more modern aeroplanes are designed with maximum use of automatics in mind. I was pretty astonished at the level of redundancy to automation when I moved to my new type. It was briefly demo'd during the groundschool phase and we were both left amazed compared to the older tech on the 767. That said, the first few Non-ILS Approaches left me craving my good old RDMI and a basic DME readout.

Funnily enough (well....it was funnier after the event) I had a complete (all bloody 3 of them!) AP failure linked to an FCC Fault not long before leaving the 767. Ended up flying the entire descent and approach manually which was great fun. We subsequenty departed for the return leg after much engineering headscratching to discover the fault returned as soon as we got airborne. Given the conditions, we elected to continue and stay below RVSM. 2 1/2 hours later we arrived back at home base and I was satisfied I'd done enough to know I can still do it when required. Would I regularly do it out of choice....no thanks. It's not the safest and most efficient way to fly the aeroplane, which is what my company and the customers down the back want. And what I'm paid to do at the end of the day.

Recently been offered a share in a C172 with a descent instrument set up but even that looks expensive to buy in to and keep current.

[speedrestriction]

I won't be turning off basic levels of automation ie FD's. It's just not worth the paperwork if it goes wrong and I maintain you're degrading safety beyond that point

I respectfully disagree, safety is not necessarily degraded by flying an approach without flight directors; if it was unsafe it would be proscribed by the regulators. On occasion (eg circling approaches) continued use of automatics (including FDs can actually increase workload). It is important to maintain proficiency at all levels of automation from the minimal permitted all the way to Cat III.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I respectfully disagree, safety is not necessarily degraded by flying an approach without flight directors; if it was unsafe it would be proscribed by the regulators. On occasion (eg circling approaches) continued use of automatics (including FDs can actually increase workload). It is important to maintain proficiency at all levels of automation from the minimal permitted all the way to Cat III.

I didn't say it was unsafe. I said it becomes less safe than another option. Being unsafe and less safe are totally different. That said there are of course exceptions to the rule and I completely agree that there are circumstances where trying to mess about programming a FD draws your attention away from the actual flying and that in itself isn't very clever either, especially close to the ground. Of course it goes back to the right time and right place conversation. Discussing and deciding on an appropriate level of automation for the approach being flown at the briefing stage helps. But my point remains that the company and our customers want us to fly whatever is the safest option possible.

[FlyingStone]

if it was unsafe it would be proscribed by the regulators.

Sometimes sticking to the absolute minimum of regulation will not satisfy even basic safety requirements. For example take an ATR FO who has 1000h of C172 and 500h of multipilot experience, upgrade him into the left seat of the A380 at 1500h TT and after 10 sectors of line training, he can be PIC in a worldwide longhaul operation. Legal....yes. Safe.... no.

Every airline has its own view on minimum automation required and as professional pilots we should respect this. As said, passengers pay for a safe flight from A to B, nothing more and nothing less.
​

[joe falchetto 64]

If he says it’s so, it must be so!

Others aren’t allowed to differ.
Mate, you are way off of the path: maybe I didn't explain clearly the meaning of my post, or maybe you didn't catch it . What it was my intention to show here is that I ma an old fart like me (I think I can say it), used for most of his career to fly clock-and-dials old fashion cockpit: I should be for this reason one of those ranting against actual pilot screening, actual pilot flying with autopilot, the Airbus red carpet and so on; instead, I don't, and I much love the AB FBW; I have read many times what seems to me be some kind of nonsense, like in other thread someone praising Boeing and attackung Airbus for the layout of the AFCS, because with the Airbus pilots "lose the trimming skill". Seriously? Shall I lose my trimming capability because I have an autotrimming aircraft (not always but very often) ? There are so many sky lords out there ready to teach us the deeply hidden truths of aviation...

[Landflap]

Long time retired now but just a thought ; are the regulatory licence revalidation exercises carried out with all the automatics connected ? I too enjoyed entry at highly selected level in the 70's. Basic pilot training was more difficult than today. Yes, we really did stalling, spinning, steep turns, recovery from unusual attitudes etc. I enjoyed quite a few heavy jet transports winding up on widebodies. I enjoyed increased automation as it made life easier. But final stint on a fully automated was least enjoyable. NO, you are not disconnected from the autopiliot, ever and no, the thrust levers are not throttles but thrust selector levers, etc, etc, etc. My point is, though, when it comes to Base check, I/R, comp exercises etc for you to prove to a Licence renewal examiner of, for example , your "CONTINUED ability to fly in controlled airspace, in IMC, in manual control " ( a requirement throughout my airline career for I/R renewal), do you chaps just push the buttons & let the autopilot do everything ? Lots of dumbing down going on here I suggest. Do you even call it a Base check, I/R ? I feared the change when it was renamed " Long event, Short event, CRM,....oh and whatever happened to that daft "Advanced Pilot Qualification Programme criteria ? Don't even get me started on non selection, Bank of Mum & Dad for financing, basic pilot training skills avoided because they are irrelevant or ( I have heard it said) too dangerous (!).


Mate of mine had the misfortune to be employed by a cowboy outfit in the nineties that discouraged handflying. He argued back (fatal) that in the right conditions, it honed basic skills and was, anyway, bloody good fun in perfect wx conditions. He continued to dig his grave by telling the CP that in order to pass the regular sim check (hand-flown exercises ) he would need to practice a bit, eh ? CP replied, with a smurk, that they made concession in the sim for the fact that the line pilots were encouraged to use, only, full automation, on the line from gear-up and 400ft beyond. For concession, mean, dumbing down.Accepted a lower standard from it's pilots then (?).


Like major air transport modern tech prangs (AF A340, GF A320 for example) moderntraining route , fully checked out and rated pilots had no idea what was going on when confused by autofunctions. In my day, autopilot out, autothrottle out, I have control...........now, what the F is going on as we are back in control........worked everytime.


OK. Agreed. It is what the beancounters demand. They bought us the high tech aircraft and when operated in full automoad from 400ft to to roll-out , ARE , very financially efficient. So, make the training fit the end product. Dumb it all down because you need no real piloting skills or background to pull back the stick, then, positive clb, call for gear up & co-jo actually reaches for and places a gear select lever in the UP position (wow) 400ft, autopilot on, Lnav, Vnav ....now what (?) oh yeah, hit the call bell & ask the CA what's for Dinner ! Agreed, shame to take the money.


Like the other old & bold bods on thread, glad to be out of it. Blimey, even my new motor has keyless ignition, several drive options that take away any skill required on the M25, Crz mode speed control, no need for spare tyre, drive for ages up to 80km/hr on a flat (ish) tyre.Gosh, need a drink (manual top up) and must read up on what to do if the speed control jams at 100 , Must move on eh ? Next, I will advocating that Nasa Space cadets must prove ability for a full manual launch, manual orbit escape to warp factor 6 & fully manual entry, descent, & landing at hostile planet. Not gonna happen eh ? Ah, forgot the modern expression, ....."It is what it is" !

[joe falchetto 64]

I can speak for me: how many times I have to do Manual flying in the simulator? Always! I was doing manual flight in every sim session on the B 707, the MD 83/83/88, the B 737-300/400 and NG, the A 320. The 737 both classic and NG were the easiest (IMHO) to fly manually also with degraded systems ; the B 707 and the MD 82 the more challenging. I work now in an environment where I am requested to show better than average hand flying skills in every situation and with multiple failures.
May I now ask a question? You happily retired, how many flight hours flew on average in one day, one week, one month and one year?

[akindofmagic]

Basic pilot training was more difficult than today. Yes, we really did stalling, spinning, steep turns, recovery from unusual attitudes etc.

For what it's worth, my basic training in 2008 included the requirement to demonstrate proficiency in stalling, spinning, steep turns and recovery from unusual attitudes (VMC, IMC full panel and IMC partial panel). We did full aerobatics as well (albeit not to a competition standard!).

Ten years flying the Airbus, and both operators encouraged manual flying during line operations. I took advantage of that at every opportunity, and when I became a captain I encouraged my first officers to do the same. Is it necessarily sensible to avail yourself of manual flying opportunities on a busy SID in the London TMA? Probably not. Airmanship probably dictates that in such situations you should make use of the various automated systems available. However, at a quiet airfield, and if the company SOPs allow you to hand-fly, why not click it all off at 20000'?

[Vessbot]

We've all got IR's so should all be very proficient on instruments,
I would argue that a few dozen hours in a bugsmasher with foggles in clear weather and with an instructor/examiner in the other seat, does not adequately prepare someone for doing it in an airliner flying twice the speeds down to minimums, with oneself in command.

being "instrument proficient" has cock all to do flying manually.
I'm trying to understand this statement. Can you please explain it?

Funnily enough (well....it was funnier after the event) I had a complete (all bloody 3 of them!) AP failure linked to an FCC Fault not long before leaving the 767. Ended up flying the entire descent and approach manually which was great fun. We subsequenty departed for the return leg after much engineering headscratching to discover the fault returned as soon as we got airborne. Given the conditions, we elected to continue and stay below RVSM. 2 1/2 hours later we arrived back at home base and I was satisfied I'd done enough to know I can still do it when required.

Wouldn't you be comforted by knowing that you can "do it" BEFORE you were forced to by external circumstances?

It seems to me like an oddly cavalier attitude to carry on with everyday flight ops without being worried that you don't know you can fly a descent and approach.

[Gordomac]

Joe, don't quite get the point of your closing question or if it was aimed at Landflap. I know the guy very well and we shared almost identical backgrounds. Both of us wound up on A340 in our last types although within different carriers. In 40 odd years, we both accrued around 22500 hrs from Cadet to Senior Captain. Not that difficult to give you are "day,week,month,year" average but it varied a lot over 40 years. Not sure a definitive answer would satisfy the answer you seek. Thankfully, my last carrier had a highly visioned Training Dept and we were all encouraged to manually fly whenever we wished. Recurrent training ( I love that phrase) involved a mix of handflying, full auto and lots of CRM .

[back to Boeing]

In both relative and absolute terms. When was flying safer. The 1970’s or today?

[Quasar2548]

Ah the “We flew in the golden era of aviation, therefore we are much better pilots than you” brigade. Don’t you just love them🙄

[BarryMG]

So, should we all go back to driving cars from the 70's - without airbags, ABS, traction and stability control, etc. - following the same logic, it made us better drivers, therefore it was safer

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I would argue that a few dozen hours in a bugsmasher with foggles in clear weather and with an instructor/examiner in the other seat, does not adequately prepare someone for doing it in an airliner flying twice the speeds down to minimums, with oneself in command.


I'm trying to understand this statement. Can you please explain it?



Wouldn't you be comforted by knowing that you can "do it" BEFORE you were forced to by external circumstances?

It seems to me like an oddly cavalier attitude to carry on with everyday flight ops without being worried that you don't know you can fly a descent and approach.

Have you read the previous comments before writing this? Or had you had few drinks?

Not sure how I’ve come across as cavalier. Being continually proficient at flying on instruments has nothing to do with being able to fly an aeroplane manually. They’re two different skill sets and both are required to get through an initial IR. Later in life we use automation to remove some of the workload of doing both. Can’t be any more clear.

In terms of being comfortable, I’m very comfortable thanks. And not in any doubt that I can safely fly a descent and approach either manually or automatically. But being able and comfortable doing something doesn't mean it’s the right thing to do. Right place right time as said above. Or should we all turn everything off at T/D and hurtle down into the London TMA flying manually? We could all meet in the car park and congratulate ourselves on our amazing flying skills.

🙄🔫

[stoneangel]

Ah the “We flew in the golden era of aviation, therefore we are much better pilots than you” brigade. Don’t you just love them🙄

+1
The golden age are now.
Having automation while you enjoy looking outside, is great.
Looking forward single pilot plane (CS25) for one reason : no flights anymore with as@h@loes captains for example. This, will be the golden age.
The same as you would enjoy a flight in a flying club. The plane for you and only you :)
Just my opinion though.

[Vessbot]

Being continually proficient at flying on instruments has nothing to do with being able to fly an aeroplane manually. They’re two different skill sets and both are required to get through an initial IR.
​It feels like we're speaking two different languages without realizing it. How are they two different skill sets? What's the difference between the two things you're talking about? Yeah there's also flying visually, but that's not relevant here as in an airline environment we're flying nearly 100% IFR (I'm being forced to point out the extremely obvious.)​​​​​​

In terms of being comfortable, I’m very comfortable thanks. And not in any doubt that I can safely fly a descent and approach either manually or automatically.

In your previous post you said after your incident you knew you were still able to do it. To me this implies that before the incident, you didn't know. What changed?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

​It feels like we're speaking two different languages without realizing it. How are they two different skill sets? What's the difference between the two things you're talking about? Yeah there's also flying visually, but that's not relevant here as in an airline environment we're flying nearly 100% IFR (I'm being forced to point out the extremely obvious.)​​​​​​



In your previous post you said after your incident you knew you were still able to do it. To me this implies that before the incident, you didn't know. What changed?

No one's forcing you to point out anything pal.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as I think we're getting in a muddle here. I was referring to hand flying the aeroplane earlier in the conversation and the capacity that can sap from the operation. That lead to me saying there are times when it's simply not appropriate to do it, especially now that the skies have become incredibly busy. Whether you're doing it while referring to instruments or looking out the window wasn't my point hence me dividing the skill sets. Knowing how to fly purely on instruments and being able to physically hand fly the aeroplane as well as we used to be able to as our hand flying skills all inevitably degrade over time makes them two separate issues.

And nothing changed, I think you're getting confused. I was simply referring to an incident where we had no choice but to hand fly the aeroplane and the capacity that sapped over the 2 1/2 hour flight was staggering. While fairly rewarding at the end, ultimately it was pretty knackering too.

Hope that makes it clearer for you.

[Falling_Penguin]

Sorry everyone, but I think it is time for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
Enjoy...

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Sorry everyone, but I think it is time for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
Enjoy...

Brilliant!! 😂😂😂