What news on the vote? [Archive]

The Fan Man

5th Aug 2002, 09:02

FIRST FEW PARAGRAPHS TAKEN FROM THE AOA WEBSITE

HONG KONG – The Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA), the
representative body for Cathay Pacific’s 1600 pilots, today announced that the pilots had
shown strong support for the current union’s leadership in returning Captain Nigel
Demery to office with 63% of the vote. This represents an 8% increase of the vote
received by Captain Demery versus his first election in August 2000.

“I am very pleased to have received such a strong show of support from the membership.
This vote sends a clear message that this dispute is far from over,” said Demery.
“Cathay’s pilots are fed up with management’s ostrich-like denial of a serious problem
that is sapping the lifeblood from this great airline.”

The election was contested by three candidates: Captain Nigel Demery, Captain Philip
Elliot and Captain Peter Hay, who received 63%, 34% and 3% of the vote, respectively.

The latter two candidates ran on very similar platforms. In the previous presidential
election Demery received 55% of the vote. This year, from 1088 members entitled to
vote, 907 cast their votes, representing a turnout of 83% - up from 75% in 2000.

Regardless of who won lets all hope the company and the AOA get back to the drawing board and start negotiations and end this bitter fued that effects so many people.

Mabey the next AGM might shed some light on what's to come in regards to the ban for new hires.

FAN MAN

backspace

5th Aug 2002, 10:17

Fan Man

When is the next AGM?

Also, I seem to recall that it is/was mentioned on the HKAOA web site that there are 1300 members. Does the previous post mean that 200 odd have pulled out of the union?

whodunnit2

5th Aug 2002, 14:50

Backspace,

Indeed it does.

If "Cockpit speak" is to be believed then this result means that many more will follow.

Let us hope not.

shortly

5th Aug 2002, 14:52

I wonder how many actually attended. Or even how many based in Hong Kong actually attended? Proxies are great aren't they.

nudger

5th Aug 2002, 17:32

BMM389EC

5th Aug 2002, 19:45

If Cathay has 1600 pilots and 1088 are entitled to vote, that's a 68% membership of the union. Give or take a few who maybe on in arrears on their subs. Not a good percentage.
Of those 1088, 907 unspoilt votes were received.
Of those 907, Nigel Demery received 574 - 63%
Perhaps a better picture can be gained by looking at those 574 votes against the total 1600 pilots at Cathay. Then it becomes 36% supporting the unions current course of action. That I think tells the real story.

shortly

6th Aug 2002, 01:41

Nudger, proxies are an easy way out for people who really don't want to be identified as part of possible increased industrial action. I was alluding to BMM's post position actually as the vote for Nigel in percentage overall terms was not nearly as good as it appeared.

The Fan Man

6th Aug 2002, 06:22

Thanks for the Maths BMM389EC

At the end of the day numbers don’t lie – Demery wants to keep the ban and Peter Elliot wanted to drop the ban.

If only 36% are in support of Demery’s tactics well it just goes to show that they are loosing the battle.

Give it a few months and they’ll be back out asking for everyone’s help!!!!

If even I find this amusing , Management must be pissing themselves laughing!!!

FAN MAN

:eek:

FlexibleResponse

6th Aug 2002, 09:58

BMM389EC,

Using your logic, the only other major candidate got less than 20% of the vote. Then it becomes less than 20% of the pilots not supporting the unions current course of action.

Do you think that tells the real story?

Just how would you propose to "elect" a HKAOA President? Company sponsored Political Appointee, perhaps re-introduction of Royalty or maybe just an old fashioned self appointed Dictator?

fire wall

6th Aug 2002, 10:03

Fan Man, the perceived direction of the workforce of my company is being commanded by Demery with 35.8% of the pilot workforce backing his/the General comittee's "call".....this does not fill me with a warm fuzzy glow.

Come on Frankg....how about some AOA spin....blame it on the Aussies maybe....sorry there cowboy, make it simple for you eh.........574 votes / 1600 pilots = 35.8%

Perhaps more significantly, it can be read that the 309 votes given to Elliott are an indication to all of just how many are prepared to let the 51'ers hang out to dry (something I would not condone personally but being a non union member my opinion is of little value...right Franky.) If you summize that the non union workforce agree with this call (1600-907=693 non union/non financial AOA members.) and add this to Elliott's vote then 1002 pilots have a "potential" conflict with Demery's direction.

Nigel is a smart cookie and I figure he can do the sums as well as all of us, so I figure the flow of champagne is being tempered in the Demery camp and some serious thought given to the way foward....unfortunately I beleive they have run out of ideas .... a ship with a wayward compass in an ocean full of reefs.

FlexibleResponse

6th Aug 2002, 10:12

I don't think it will give any replacement pilot a warmfuzzy glow.

Full_Burner

6th Aug 2002, 13:20

Flex

Had to giggle at your perverse logic.

Let's see 1600 pilots

HKAOA 1088

Eligible voters (or at least who voted) 907

Demery 574

Elliot 300?

What that tells me that even 300 of the AOA members who are still prepared to pay the 5% are not in favour of the current course. For my money you can count them in with all the others who are either not in the union; do not pay or chose not to vote.

No matter which way you play the numbers only 574 of 1600 are with the current course.

Roll on MSS 2 by all those idiots.

FlexibleResponse

6th Aug 2002, 14:33

Perpetrator or yet another victim?

shortly

7th Aug 2002, 02:09

Frankie baby you are one person I have encountered who is never right. But you still blither and bully on regardless. The 49ers are martyrs to union stupidity and were hung out to dry by union management. That same union could easily have had all or most of the 49ers back at work months ago but at their arrogant misguided best left them on the line instead. This is after the positions of the 49ers were filled by their AOA card carrying colleagues. As a token they placed a 'ban' on hiring new people to fill legitimate vacancies caused by expansion and aircraft return. Why the IFALPA supported the 'ban' remains one of lifes little mysteries, as I have said before IFALPA will regret that decision. Now ND gets back with around 38% pilot support and immediately goes to print threatening more radical industrial action, and get this, this industrial action will 'involve junior pilots who had the most at stake because they were furthest from retirement'. Newsflash junior pilots - you be identified as part of increased industrial action and you won't be far from retirement at all and the same A scalers who let the company have its wicked way with B scales will still be laughing all the way to the bank. Sadly it's now almost too late for the AOA. I might have to start an alternative union based on democracy, communication with only allow members with IQ's greater than their age.

FCP

7th Aug 2002, 03:02

Shortly,I would like to apply for new union:)

Regards,

FCP-Future Cathay Pilot

VR-HFX

7th Aug 2002, 03:54

Clarence my trusty computer and I had reached a pact to stay out of this bile and vitriol until the long hot summer was over. Well Clarence has kept his end of the bargain but those toys in the lobby of the Headland prove my undoing.

The math on the vote is compelling. A larger margin than last time but in a smaller pond.

It was not that long ago that Demery said to Turnbull that if he (Nigel) was an impediment to progress then he would get out of the way.

Management won't deal with Demery. Demery does not see himself as an impediment. What am I missing here??

Obviously the AOA finances are under stress. Now we are likely to see another few hundred depart in dribs and drabs over the next 6 months. Many have stuck it out for the 49ers but it is now obvious this will not be resolved any time soon. Quite simply the only way to solve the 49er issue is to bake a very humble pie. What has been dished up is a curry.

I'm with Shortly. The vote for Nigel was the kiss of death to the AOA. A testament to that little bit of lemming in us all.

Sorry Clarence!

FlexibleResponse

7th Aug 2002, 05:34

From the front page news of the SCMP this morning, it appears that the action has started.

An AGM of the HKAOA was held this morning as well and reports are that Nigel and Phil will have talks on working together!

We were all wrong?

6feetunder

7th Aug 2002, 05:38

shortly, by not being a member you are doing more to hang people out to dry than any member of the AOA. Your perception of some kind of offer is typical of your ilk ala Rossco or Phil, there was no offer of any reinstatement of any kind.

If you think the A Scale will be laughing all the way to the bank for very long without the AOA around you are sadly mistaken. The management of CX has repeatedly said they want their crew costs at the level of SQ, take a look at their deal, not even B Scale. It started in '99 and it ain't over, not by a long shot.

Have fun at the bank, lol.

FlexibleResponse

7th Aug 2002, 05:45

Cathay just announced half year profits increased 6.8% to HK$1.410 billion.

With looming HKAOA action, the post-meeting Press Conference might be interesting!

shortly

7th Aug 2002, 05:58

I love the way we all try to identify/qualify each other. If I were an A scale I would be off flying my chopper or playing with my other toys paid for by CX. No I am here still wanting to prolong a career in a goddam good airline. I do not agree with the actions of the AOA over a long period of time. And there bloody well was an offer made a truly generous offer which the company are jolly glad was not accepted by the AOA, I will not say members of the AOA because it never got to them. Even if you repeat a lie a million times it does not become truth.

6feetunder

7th Aug 2002, 06:03

That works both ways, you say I am lying and I say you are. Not much more to say really. Except that there was no offer, call up either of the VPs of the union and ask them.

pilotabroad

7th Aug 2002, 08:14

Only 36% of CX pilots voted for ND.

Only 57% of CX pilots are voting members of the AOA.

150 have joined CX since the ban started.

200 have left the AOA since the 49ers were rightfully dismissed (but using totally the wrong process morally (but smart legal one)).

ND tells the membership in his first post election letter that the ban will be reconsidered, but tells the SCMP that industrial action is coming involving the more junior pilots.

What I think....ND finally sees that the AOA is fornicating itself, members are leaving and the ban is a bad joke. He will drop the ban, foresake some of the 49ers provided they receive 'fair treatment' and hope like hell for a resonable offer from CX which the membership will accept. If this doesn't happen, he will return to the membership telling them 'now is the time for action, we have done everything we can to reach agreement, but we now must act...' He will call for a sickout, strike etc...and he and a handfull of other fools will give it a go. CX will respond 'robustly'...and the AOA will be decimated.

Pitty...we do need an effective empoyee body....

FlexibleResponse

7th Aug 2002, 13:13

Truth is always the first victim of war.

Let the games begin...

Full_Burner

7th Aug 2002, 15:12

Yes indeed let the games begin. I sense a watered down campaign as Nigel knows that most of the membership doesn't have the heart for even what was attempted last year. Of those that do have heart only a handful have any power.

As a result the required pressure will not and can not be applied to management. (see previous post re numbers of potential players). In the end the AOA will be completely defeated but claim victory. The 49 ers will not have a job with CX ; maybe another contract will be signed but most of the holy grails will be abandoned.

The opportunity for the AOA to effect conditions for it's members has long past. If Nigel REALLY cared for the members; the clever thing to do would be not to run in the first place. Together with a different President, the termination of Mr Scargill and the removal of the War(ham) monger a dialouge may have been possible.

Flex; have you ever heard of Maths 101 ??

middle

8th Aug 2002, 02:14

I voted for Phil.
I will continue to pay to support the 49ers. I will support any action voted on by the membership. I will do whatever it takes to get the 49ers reinstated.

It could have been me.

Forget Phil, Nigel, politics, percentages. Support YOUR union. Lets get the 49ers back in the seat.

shortly

8th Aug 2002, 02:33

Middle a good guy you must be, bravo. But don't you ever wonder why the Company fired the 49ers in the first place? What has 10 long boring years of industrial action achieved? Do you really believe the Company will negotiate with the current leadership? Even if all the pilots who support the pit bulls and their leaders go along with increased militancy do you think the company will suffer? Mate, all these are reasonable questions which you must consider before hanging yourself out to dry as well. The 49ers are martyrs of union ineptitude and they will not be coming home under the current situation. This is of course very sad but true. The only way forward was to elect a new committee, stop all action, make a concession or two and get back to the table. It is not only the 49ers who have my sympathy, but the hundreds more to follow if the union is not very, very careful.

FlexibleResponse

8th Aug 2002, 04:40

Hong Kong and International Newspaper, Radio and TV coverage of impending Industrial Action if CX management fail to commence talks with the HKAOA.

CX's Chairman struggling with pointed Industrial related questions at the post-profits announcement Press Conference.

CX's Director Corporate Development admitting that the Recruiting Ban was stopping "good" pilots from joining Cathay Pacific.

Absolutely no pressure at all. Operations normal.

shortly

8th Aug 2002, 16:52

What was he supposed to say Flexible? Well you guys are you about to do something or get off the pot? The battle for now is lost can't you see that or would you prefer complete annhialation of the AOA. I have not agreed with AOA strategies for many years but I still believe in the need for an Association of pilots. In a nice world the AOA would be close to both management decisions and the people it portends to represent. Watch this space, ND will call for increased action - it will not be forthcoming - ND will step down, honourably (lol) the 51ers will be left on the line.

Cpt. Underpants

8th Aug 2002, 17:21

short(l)y

Idyllic, but impractical to wish for an association that would "be close to both management decisions and the people it portends to represent" as long as the management of Cathay take such a belligerent approach to its personnel relations. The next time you fly (or interact with non-management staff) ask a few questions about how they feel about the present state of affairs and Cathay’s management. You may be surprised to learn that the management of this airline is almost universally despised.

A well know-known and often quoted summation of Cathay in Airline (Management) Circles:

Technical Excellence, Personnel Catastrophe

shortly

8th Aug 2002, 17:45

Oh Cpt you are so cruel, are you casting nasturtians about my stature? In my limited exposure to management I have not found them belligerent at all. The converse is true. This is a magnificent organisation, 56 years of operation and one petty cash loss - no Government financial support either, what a great management and what a wonderful business. The folks looking through rose coloursed glasses are the only threat, are you one of them? There are plenty or most of the airlines in the world envy this great airline. Join the party and have some fun, lets get wealthy together.

HissingSid

8th Aug 2002, 18:32

Shortly seems to have his finger on theb pulse.
Dont they know about the Gateau?
Rgds. Sid.

Cpt. Underpants

8th Aug 2002, 20:41

Absolutely Management. Why?

nasturtiums NOT nasturtians (although what the context of this reference to any of a genus (Tropaeolum of the family Tropaeolaceae, the nasturtium family) of herbs of Central and So. America has to do with my comments is beyond me. Perhaps you meant "aspersions"?
organization NOT organisation (with an "S" is a generally accepted American spelling, so a "maybe" here)
coloured NOT coloursed

I also think your comments are so naive as to be unbelieveable. I won't dispute that they (Cathay Upper Management) are wizards at making money, but "magnificent"? No.

Friend, the management of Cathay are despised by the vast majority of the employees, whether you choose to ignore it or not.

FlexibleResponse

9th Aug 2002, 06:55

Financial Management Rating = Astonishing, Astounding, Amazing

Human Resources Management Rating = Abysmal, Awful, Appalling

411A

9th Aug 2002, 15:40

Shareholders and pax seem pleased...employees are way down the list, especially flight crew. Only when flights are delayed and the bottom line threatened are they likely to notice. As most industrial action is not allowed in HKG, the AOA members have a choice, go with the flow or look elsewhere.
Are they (as a collective group) able to realise same...not likely.
The laughter you notice is coming from the company executive suite.;)

Cpt. Underpants

9th Aug 2002, 16:05

If you ever start ops, old man, CX will eat you for a snack. They prey on nickle-and-dime operations like yours. If you think for a minute that they will allow you to operate unimpeded into HKG, think again. DT is in the boardroom right now twirling his Hewlett-Packard finacial calculator (in the best Jimmy Stewart style) whispering "make my day".

You haven't a hope.

Personally, I doubt you'll ever start.

shortly

9th Aug 2002, 16:07

Cpt thank you for your edit of my early morning post. I especially liked the botanical lecture. We will have to disagree on the feelings of the majority of the workforce towards management. You are just wrong that's all. Maybe some of the pilots are unhappy with their lot (God only knows why) and some in ISD, but in the main the workers appreciate a well run and profitable business. They work in a lovely building with excellent facilities both business and social. By the by, not being pedantic, I actually said it was a magnificent organisation and that management of it was great. I completely stand by that because it is true. 56 years mate, one petty cash loss and that was a book keeping sleight of hand as we actually made an operating profit that year also. Would they be great management if they rolled over and played dead for you? The history of the AOA over the last five years reads like a litany of missed opportunities.