UK Aircraft Pyrenees Crash Spain

[Mike Flynn]

MADRID, Jan. 9 (Xinhua) -- One person was killed and the other is missing after a light aircraft crashed in the Basque Region in northern Spain on Wednesday, according to rescue services.

The accident happened at around 14:00 p.m. local time on the 1,078-meter high Mount Hernio, in the province of Gipuzkoa, which was covered in mist at the time.

A local resident heard an explosion and informed the Basque regional police.

Nationality of the two people on board remains unknown.

The aircraft involved in the accident was reported as a UK registered Piper, which had taken off from the Portuguese town of Cascais earlier in the day on-route to the airport at Hondarribia, which is close to the border between Spain and France.

Rescue services were quickly on the scene, although the work of a rescue helicopter was severely limited by the adverse weather conditions.

The burned out wreckage of the plate was discovered at around 15:45 p.m. local time along with the body of one of the two on board. The search for the second person had to be suspended shortly after 18:00 p.m. due to the lack of light.

The area around the crash site has been sealed off by investigators. Rescue services will renew their search for the second person on Thursday, although there is little hope of finding them alive.





https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x518/35bb0bde_8b7e_4911_91e5_b51222333b48_a2bce1b9dee91d0d454de6f 847d1f7511fe89b22.jpeg
ei https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/615x355/0_british_pilot_is_killed_and_another_is_missing_feared_dead _after_their_small_aircraft_crashes_in_s_f1a5e9ed302abeed89e b1d1dc906399fdc8adb17.jpg


This looks like a tragic CFIT Pyrenees accident.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/634x429/b3b6237e_2efd_4f96_9ade_24aecfb33ef2_dd6176efdf998cc7ff97b47 d380cc5546a205b66.jpeg







https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6576805/British-pilot-killed-missing-small-aircraft-crashes-Spain.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-two-british-pilots-feared-13837197

[DaveReidUK]

Second body found this morning.

[Mike Flynn]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1290/c5eb5619_a57d_4b65_bee2_417470ac35f5_0e9bef84976fe0a0505ee2c 7cf6f3cae46870082.jpeg

Looks like it may be Shoreham based ex Cabair Arrow.

[Procrastinus]

Reminds me of Neil Williams' tragic crash.

[DaveReidUK]

Looks like it may be Shoreham based ex Cabair Arrow.

If, as reported, it's G-OARI it normally flies from Deanland, near Lewes. Registered owner lives in nearby Herstmonceaux.

[piperboy84]

Been into that airfield a couple of times for a stopover, wouldn't want to do it in anything but good conditions. The proverbial "box canyon".
Poor folks.

[broadreach]

Been into that airfield a couple of times for a stopover, wouldn't want to do it in anything but good conditions. The proverbial "box canyon".

Hondarribia/San Sebastian a box canyon??

[Mike Flynn]

Names now published. Two very experienced pilots.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-46820519

[Jetscream 32]

RIP David, sad loss of very experienced chaps - Banner 1

[piperboy84]

Hondarribia/San Sebastian a box canyon??
It certainly felt like it for an amatuer like myself coming in off the sea in gusty conditions. I guess it's irrelevant as these poor chaps hit the mountain several miles inland. I've done a few hops over the mountains between San Sebastian and Pamplona and there's not many, if any, places i'd want to try and put it down in. Again a tragedy for all involved.

[lpvapproach]

Tragic.

Do we know if either of the pilots were instrument rated?

[compton3bravo]

Know the area quite well although never flew it. The weather can change so quickly one minute you are driving in bright sunlight then all of a sudden you are in thick fog. Very sad but it looks like one of those let's carry on regardless moments unfortunately.

[Jonzarno]

Tragic.

Do we know if either of the pilots were instrument rated?

Yes: posted elsewhere that at least one of the victims was a highly respected and experienced instrument rated pilot.

[Mike Flynn]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1361/cabc8111_ef59_45e2_858b_1c80abae2094_dd414dceef5b3829b32f55f e5ef8f0ec1964fd7b.jpeg

Accident site


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1458x1108/6b48a942_bf59_4e6e_b2bd_a9f186c39332_c4a161d28a4f98e5e13ab90 9f4674c1cee426bb7.jpeg

Cockpit picture 9.35 am on the day of the accident



To quote the Daily Telegraph.In a recording of what is thought to have been the pair's final communication with air traffic control before they crashed, they were heard discussing a change in their route when flying in foggy conditions.



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1046x1520/94673a11_27e1_46af_835d_8b6404515fa2_ab81adae8af17ab49eb8129 bdb4a7138475d8733.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1037x1009/722e55e1_af1e_4fa9_b01b_40c71d737a2c_21a7bc4a15f05c1f7f7cad2 389c742ce2dedef91.jpeg




The Piper PA-28 plane took off from Cascais, southern Portugal, and was heading towards Hondarribia airfield in northern Spain when it crashed in misty conditions on the 3,500ft Hernio mountain early on Wednesday afternoon.

[Cows getting bigger]

Nice ALT warning light combined with an ammeter (to be more precise, an alternator load meter) that is on/near the bottom stop.

[what next]

Nice ALT warning light combined with an ammeter (to be more precise, an alternator load meter) that is on/near the bottom stop.

Yes, but this picture was taken at the beginning of the flight. They could not have flown all the way to the crash site on battery power alone. Either the indication is wrong (I know this well from the Pipers in our flying school fleet - when the battery is fully charged and the avionics don't consume much power we get the same indication) or they got their alternator back on line.

[Cows getting bigger]

Or they pressed-on with no electrics. None of us have a crystal ball.

[lpvapproach]

Or they pressed-on with no electrics.

It seems highly unlikely they would continue across most of Spain in this situation, esp when any failure, if indeed there was one, occurred in VMC with riks of that changing further on.

[broadreach]

It certainly felt like it for an amatuer like myself coming in off the sea in gusty conditions. I guess it's irrelevant as these poor chaps hit the mountain several miles inland. I've done a few hops over the mountains between San Sebastian and Pamplona and there's not many, if any, places i'd want to try and put it down in. Again a tragedy for all involved.

Thanks and I take your point about not many places to put down! I drove from Barcelona to Hondarribia last May and spent a pleasant touristy day walking around. To my inexperienced eye it does look as if they began the descent too soon.

[Mike Flynn]

Weather for the day of the accident.

SA
09/01/2019 14:00->
METAR LESO 091400Z 04003KT 010V100 9999 BKN045 09/04 Q1026=
SA
09/01/2019 13:30->
METAR LESO 091330Z 07003KT 020V100 9999 BKN045 09/04 Q1026=
SA
09/01/2019 13:00->
METAR LESO 091300Z 08003G14KT 020V150 9999 BKN045 09/04 Q1027=
SA
09/01/2019 12:30->
METAR LESO 091230Z 09004KT 040V120 9999 BKN045 08/04 Q1027=
SA
09/01/2019 12:00->
METAR LESO 091200Z 06004KT 010V100 9999 BKN040 08/05 Q1028=
SA
09/01/2019 11:30->
METAR LESO 091130Z 08004KT 030V110 9999 BKN040 09/05 Q1028=
SA
09/01/2019 11:00->
METAR LESO 091100Z 10003KT 060V150 9999 BKN040 08/05 Q1028=
SA
09/01/2019 10:30->
METAR LESO 091030Z 07004KT 040V100 9999 BKN027 09/05 Q1029=
SA
09/01/2019 10:00->
METAR LESO 091000Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT017 BKN027 08/05 Q1028=
SA
09/01/2019 09:30->
METAR LESO 090930Z 07008KT 9999 BKN017 09/06 Q1028=
SA
09/01/2019 09:00->
METAR LESO 090900Z 06009KT 030V100 9999 BKN013 09/07 Q1028=
SA
09/01/2019 08:30->
METAR LESO 090830Z 06010KT 9999 SCT010 BKN015 09/07 Q1027=
SA
09/01/2019 08:00->
METAR LESO 090800Z 29005KT 240V340 9999 SCT015 BKN030 11/07
Q1027=

[Hot 'n' High]

Oh no, not another one! Did Dave do some tug work with the PNGC at Lee-on-Solent certainly back in the early 1990's? I'm sure he did - which is where I think I recall the name from. Anyone happen to know? If so, a really great guy - fairly quiet if I recall. He always knew I like being dropped off in a certain area so, even when conditions were not ideal, as soon as he worked out I was behind him on the other end of the rope, he'd set off direct to "my spot" (3000 ft over Cowes!) and "dump" me there. Happy, happy days. What a great shame to hear the news; he joins the list of others I have known who died doing what they loved so much. Condolences to both families involved. Dreadful news........

[Philoctetes]

It seems highly unlikely they would continue across most of Spain in this situation, esp when any failure, if indeed there was one, occurred in VMC with riks of that changing further on.

Seems they intended to as the pitot heat was also off to save battery power.

[3wheels]

Seems they intended to as the pitot heat was also off to save battery power.

The fact that the Pitot Heat is off is irrelevant. Some people fly around with it off when clearly outside icing conditions, which obviously they were at the time.

If, as you sugggest,they intended to continue, KNOWING they had a failure, then surely they would have turned off the Strobes, ADF, DME, VORs and other radios? All these appear to be on.

[ATC Watcher]

I flew tp LESO VFR a couple of times coming from Spain , , first question coming to my mind why would you overfly exactly the top of the highest obstacle in the area ? Likely to encounter turbulence . waves or even rotors , plus Vultures ( a real danger in the area) If they were as reported 2 experienced pilots make even less sense, as the valley below is wide and flat until the sea..One reason might be they were on a direct route and did not want to deviate because , either fuel ( but unlikely looking at the gauges on the photos) , but yes maybe the Generator U/S ( or more likely fuse ) then battery getting low, wanting to keep SSR and VHF on and minimize air time ,, etc,, But why keep the strobe for instance. after take off ? , a great energy pumper .
I also see they had a Garmin GPS likely with terrain info, they surely got into the red , unless they switch it off to save power in the end.. or it was was something else that brought them here.
We probably will never know.
Very sad indeed . RIP .

[hec7or]

Did Dave do some tug work with the PNGC at Lee-on-Solent

Yes, it's the same Dave.

[BluSdUp]

Tragic to see experienced private pilots ending like this. Indeed.
We most likely will not know exactly what happened, but we can still learn.
Here is how I did it:
In the fall of 1988 and the following winter I did my training in Gimli , Canada.
As it was to cold to fly at times and I had done all the relevant theory, I attacked ALL Canadian accident reports going 10 to 15 years back!
Relevance for You as a young private pilot You ask: Technical and weather related accidents are the same as in the 1970s and early 80s.
Difference is that the Pipers and Cessna was NEW then!
With regards to mountain flying and marginal weather one must err on the safe side.

Atc Watcher, I wonder if You are close to the main problem:
I have flown multiple times into this region, IFR , 737. Same , same , but different!
Weather and wind makes it interesting, but for us it maters not as I can always opt out with a 3000 feet per minute , plus GA.

I shall get to my point: This region is notorious for turbulence and occasional mountain wave, we have SIGMETs on it every second day.
And even at FL330 and above I am always cautious!
Here is why: Ca 5 year ago I was fat and happy southbound at FL370 with a fair margin on the speed.Say we did M.78 ( IAS 235) with 20 kts to amber band!
Sky clear.
Suddenly we started getting pushed up by a mountain wave, as in climbing with 1500 feet/min in ALT Hold, power going for idle!
I promptly asked for descend to FL 350 or 330, was asked to stby then demanded it and got it. And good was that, a we now got on the backside of the wave and we descended in speed mode with FULL PWR and still went down with 1000f/m!!
As we leveled off we managed to hold altitude and speed, but to this day I am sure we would have been close to stall if we had tried to stay up there!
How is this relevant to this accident, we do not know if they had any turbulence or downdraft, but if transiting mountains like this make sure You have altitude to trade. Out climbing it is often not an option.
Here is a general rule for You all when transiting mountains if any chance of wave: Altitude of Mountain x 2 = Cruise Altitude!
Pictures may not be as spectacular up there, but at least You get home safe!

You all stay safe now and light a candle for this departed Crew!
Humbly
Cpt B

[robskye]

Actually, you shouldn't be flying near any mountain in mountain wave forming conditions with any GA airplane, period. However this accident seems to be a VMC into IMC/CFIT than a mountain wave issue.

[ATC Watcher]

BluSdUp : good comments cannot agree more with you , I know the power of waves as I fly gliders too.

Rorobskye : However this accident seems to be a VMC into IMC/CFIT than a mountain wave issue.
Yes, but could be both, a medium size cumulus hiding the top of the hill, you are planning to go on top of both but the downdraft catch you and force you in, you see the ground on the other side, tempted to let it go into the cloud for 10- 15 sec max ? except this time the top of the hill is in the cloud. , but speculating , could be anything else, Reminds me a bit of the Santa Maria Independent air 707 ( 1989 , check google if interested) hitting the highest tree on top of the only obstacle in the area for hundreds of miles, in clear blue sky .. except for the cumulus on top of the old volcano..

[lilflyboy262...2]

I flew tp LESO VFR a couple of times coming from Spain , , first question coming to my mind why would you overfly exactly the top of the highest obstacle in the area ? Likely to encounter turbulence . waves or even rotors , plus Vultures ( a real danger in the area) If they were as reported 2 experienced pilots make even less sense, as the valley below is wide and flat until the sea..One reason might be they were on a direct route and did not want to deviate because , either fuel ( but unlikely looking at the gauges on the photos) , but yes maybe the Generator U/S ( or more likely fuse ) then battery getting low, wanting to keep SSR and VHF on and minimize air time ,, etc,, But why keep the strobe for instance. after take off ? , a great energy pumper .
I also see they had a Garmin GPS likely with terrain info, they surely got into the red , unless they switch it off to save power in the end.. or it was was something else that brought them here.
We probably will never know.
Very sad indeed . RIP .

Comms are on the GPS so I doubt it would be switched off.
Its been a while since I flew with a G430/530 but I think terrain is an optional feature. Not many VFR aircraft have it as it costs extra and is not needed.

[ATC Watcher]

Comms are on the GPS so I doubt it would be switched off.
Its been a while since I flew with a G430/530 but I think terrain is an optional feature. Not many VFR aircraft have it as it costs extra and is not needed.
Good point about the coms on the Garmin , I focused too fast on the King rack on the right
As to terrain , well it is available on a cheap 296 , so I though it would be standard on the 430. I have never seen them without it I must say but I take your word for it .

[Hot 'n' High]

Yes, it's the same Dave.Thanks "hec7or". Really hoped it wasn't..... Damn! What a tragedy - such a sad loss of two good guys. Thanks for all those tows across the Solent, Dave – I can remember the serene flights back like they were last week not nigh on 30 years ago! RIP! H 'n' H

[Andrewgr2]

Accident report now published: https://www.mitma.gob.es/recursos_mfom/comodin/recursos/a-002-2019_final_report_nm.pdf

CFIT in IMC on VFR flight plan.

[Peter Geldard]

The plane had a Garmin 430W - which therefore has Terrain Awareness. The data card was updated just a few week’s earlier by the same person who updates my own.
In a previous posting a picture clearly shows that ‘Terrain Awareness’ was not turned off since that activates a Warning Flag which was not visible.
I can only presume that the 430 was failing (Due to voltage drop?); but what were they then doing R/T on?
i cannot conceivably understand how two well experienced and qualified pilots would ignore such warnings if they appeared.
it is still a mystery - despite the Air Accident Report - what did/did not occur to cause such a sad outcome.

[atceng]

Has Icing been ruled out?

[rnzoli]

i cannot conceivably understand how two well experienced and qualified pilots would ignore such warnings if they appeared..
Having been in a similar situation myself, this can happen when the PIC is skimming the cloud base from below, in hope of slipping through a narrow gap between the clouds and a valley somewhere.
In that case, pilots ignore terrain warnings since they have ground contact below them. I ignored my GNS430 for sure.
At the same time, it is still possible that the forward vision is unexpectedly obscured by low hanging cloud fractus and with a rising terrain, this can quikcly become a death trap.
To avoid people attempting to scud run in mountenous areas, EASA has invendent some kind of en-route instrument rating (EIR), to allow flights to take IFR route segments, above or inside clouds, but depart and land only under VFR. But I am not sure it is widespread in the member states.

[rnzoli]

Has Icing been ruled out?
Well, with a VFR flight plan, this is an interesting question, as it shouldn't be an issue at all. (Except for flying into freezing rain, which was not the case on that day.).
Moderate icing was forecast between 4000-7000 ft.
In the last 3 minutes, the a/c descended out of 4800 ft and crashed at an elevation of 3360 ft. Straight line, stable speed, slow rate of descent, no report of icing.
How far does this rule out icing-related control issues?

[POBJOY]

Knowing the two pilots involved I am not convinced that they would have ignored any reasonable warnings with regard to terrain or equipment.
looking at the information available, the question that comes to mind is how cold soaked the airframe was before it entered cold visible moisture laden air.
The next question is how this affected a non deiced machine for both control and instrument readings.
The other issue is the unknown situation re the electrical system based on an image of the voltage light.
Again, the aircraft had a engineer on board who knew the machine and its system. Knowing the length and type of flight I suggest it is unlikely that the flight would have been continued if in fact there was an actual charging issue.
The initial accident report is both comprehensive and thorough, but I feel some ' indication ' is required as to the possibility of icing issues being a factor. Of course there is no actual evidence available to confirm or otherwise, but with such a common American airframe there must be information available as to the effects of the onset of icing in a situation where it is not possible to quickly enter a warmer region.

[rnzoli]

with such a common American airframe there must be information available as to the effects of the onset of icing .
Looking at a few PA28 accidents related to icing conditions in IMC, the first 2 I came across showed signs of control problems prior to the crash.
In this case (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001212X20590&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA), the aircraft started circling and descending.
In this case (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20070420X00440&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA), the aircraft werckage was vertical, with the engine buried into the ground.

So it seems to be unusual to experience icing, yet continue a straight flight path, with steady descent, and crash in a normal cruise flight attitude.