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View Full Version : Malindo tries a flapless takeoff, Perth


pinkpanther1
7th Jan 2019, 10:33
Just came across the following video and was pretty amazed in 2018 a crew could miss the flaps, only to be saved by the T/O config warning. Not trying to start a 'Lion Air group bashing' but how does CASA allow this to continue?
https://youtu.be/O-mvVewOCtA

PoppaJo
7th Jan 2019, 10:55
Well if AirAsia Indonesia can drive a Airbus into the drink and still be allowed to operate here then hell will freeze over before this mob is banned.

SOPS
7th Jan 2019, 11:29
But the tickets are cheap, mate. Less than the cost of a taxi to the airport.. can buy more Bingtangs in Bali to guzzle in me blue singlet !! 🤮🤮🤮

double_barrel
7th Jan 2019, 11:36
And to an amateur's eye, that looks like a pretty sloppy line-up at the 1st try. My instructor would rip my head off for that. Why throw away 2 a/c lengths of runway before starting your run?

wheels_down
7th Jan 2019, 11:57
Where do these guys learn to dive....I mean fly.

https://youtu.be/ixSqTFvDKCs

compressor stall
7th Jan 2019, 12:50
Well Batik can't get in trouble for landing long.. looks like he hit the 1000' markers or just after!

gulliBell
7th Jan 2019, 13:09
That was an interesting landing, almost touched down nose wheel first. Maybe the apprentice was flying. Maybe not. Having seen an Indonesian crew get lost in the traffic pattern at an airport with a 7000' runway before nothing much surprises me any more.

maggot
7th Jan 2019, 14:27
And to an amateur's eye, that looks like a pretty sloppy line-up at the 1st try. My instructor would rip my head off for that. Why throw away 2 a/c lengths of runway before starting your run?
Yeah they should totally do the ol Aussie 737 mini back track

Ollie Onion
7th Jan 2019, 20:47
I have had so many people say to me they wish Air Asia would fly within Australia as the tickets would be so much cheaper. Life is cheap I guess.

dodo whirlygig
7th Jan 2019, 22:06
Interesting that he thought using reverse was necessary for such a low speed abort. Well below the Boeing recommendation for reverser stowage.

josephfeatherweight
7th Jan 2019, 22:09
Dodo - Does the Rejected Takeoff checklist in a B737 specify a speed that you should USE/NOT USE reverse thrust?

machtuk
7th Jan 2019, 23:03
Most pilots have made boo boo's sometime in their career but what's probably most concerning here is that there are two drivers in the cockpit & for good reasons, they both didn't pick this up? Still the system worked to break the accident chain, did they learn from this? That's another story!

Capt Fathom
7th Jan 2019, 23:07
Sounded more like IDLE Reverse was selected. Also noticed the flaps coming out during the abort.

gulliBell
7th Jan 2019, 23:29
I'd like to hear the announcement from the Malindo pilot to the passengers after the abort...

kingRB
7th Jan 2019, 23:53
beat me to it Gullibell. Was about to say would have loved to have heard the PA. Probably didn't even make one.

*Lancer*
7th Jan 2019, 23:56
Where do these guys learn to dive....I mean fly.




Pretty easy to be nose low, especially carrying a bit of speed for wind. Normal approach pitch attitude with Flap 40 is 0 degrees.

Australian operators are not immune from configuration errors

dodo whirlygig
8th Jan 2019, 01:34
Does the Rejected Takeoff checklist in a B737 specify a speed that you should USE/NOT USE reverse thrust?

The QRH says "apply reverse thrust up to the maximum consistent with conditions"

In this case conditions did not dictate that reverse was necessary - (i) it was a low speed reject and (ii) given the distance he had to taxi to vacate the runway stopping wasn't an issue. Throttles to idle would suffice and also minimise any possible FOD concerns.

JPJP
8th Jan 2019, 03:00
I'd like to hear the announcement from the Malindo pilot to the passengers after the abort...

I was thinking the same thing. How about - ‘Ladies and Gentlemen. We were required to discontinue the takeoff. Apologies for the short delay. We’ll have you on your way to blah blah blah in a few minutes.’ All true. Right ? 🤓

(No I haven’t. Touch wood, etc.)

Icarus2001
8th Jan 2019, 03:52
Yes we all make errors but I am trying to figure out the actual points at which this error was not trapped until the technology saved their bacon...

1. Pilot forgets to set flap.
2. Take-off checklist, item missed or incorrect response.
3. Config check prior to rolling, usually at line up.

So three errors trapped by the config warning at thrust lever movement. Draw your own conclusion.

And to an amateur's eye, that looks like a pretty sloppy line-up at the 1st try. My instructor would rip my head off for that. Why throw away 2 a/c lengths of runway before starting your run?

You would need to know the company line-up allowance and policy. If the RTOW was based on say an intersection departure but they used full length then nothing is "thrown away". Not saying that this is what occurred here just explaining that it is often not simply being cavalier with the 3444 metres available to use.

VH DSJ
8th Jan 2019, 04:20
Well it could have been worse; they could have completely ignored the take-off config warnings like this mob did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ptLtYt7wk

pinkpanther1
8th Jan 2019, 04:31
Well it could have been worse; they could have completely ignored the take-off config warnings like this mob did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ptLtYt7wk

Flaps are definitely down. Guessing that's either an incorrect flap setting or incorrect VR speed for the given weight. Probably didn't trigger the warning.

JPJP
8th Jan 2019, 05:12
Well it could have been worse; they could have completely ignored the take-off config warnings like this mob did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8ptLtYt7wk

The commentary was friggin hilarious :E, you completely missed the point, and you have no idea how a 73 works.

As the previous poster said - the flaps were down. At least to 1. There would have been no takeoff Config warning.

josephfeatherweight
8th Jan 2019, 05:22
The QRH says "apply reverse thrust up to the maximum consistent with conditions"
I thought it might be something like that - similar to what I'm used to - I'm being a tad pedantic, but the way I read your QRH is that reversers SHOULD be selected always - the amount of reverse then used should be commensurate with the conditions (speed at commencement of abort / runway remaining / directional control / etc). Idle may be appropriate.
I'm a big believer of doing the SAME actions ALWAYS - the AMOUNT of braking and reverse is up to the PF given the conditions at the time.
IE an abort commenced at 45 KIAS on runway 34L at YSSY doesn't need max braking, spoilers (if you fly a type that requires they be manually extended), and max reverse - but I'll at least apply/select all of them - so it's the same process every time... Hopefully it means I'm ready when it happens at V1-5 on a balanced field!

ACMS
8th Jan 2019, 08:41
That Batik 737 Landing was way too fast, he forced it on. The mind boggles.......

AviatorDave
8th Jan 2019, 12:37
I'd like to hear the announcement from the Malindo pilot to the passengers after the abort...

Will be the usual blurb and I think they aren‘t going to sweat it. For your own safety, we aborted due to a minor issue that was meanwhile sorted out (aren‘t we heroes?) and we‘re now lining up for another go.
On arrival at dest, pax will leave aircraft convinced that their lives had been in pro hands at all times.

AviatorDave
8th Jan 2019, 12:41
Most pilots have made boo boo's sometime in their career but what's probably most concerning here is that there are two drivers in the cockpit & for good reasons, they both didn't pick this up? Still the system worked to break the accident chain, did they learn from this? That's another story!

Sloppy or no checklist reading/briefing.
Anyone knows about the cockpit authority gradient in that outfit?

rrramjet
8th Jan 2019, 21:30
There but for the grace of ...... convenient how we forget. At least these guys stopped after the config warning - more than can be said for the skippy B737 out of BNE a few years ago. They continued and raced the extending flaps on the roll. Mistakes happen, dealing with them is the hard part.

Centaurus
9th Jan 2019, 11:42
the AMOUNT of braking and reverse is up to the PF given the conditions at the time.
Don't mean to be pedantic but as a rejected take off is normally done by the captain, it is up to him to decide even if the PF at the time was the other bloke?

tio540
9th Jan 2019, 12:04
There but for the grace of ...... convenient how we forget. At least these guys stopped after the config warning - more than can be said for the skippy B737 out of BNE a few years ago. They continued and raced the extending flaps on the roll. Mistakes happen, dealing with them is the hard part.

i raced my flaps today, and beat them by half a fuselage length.

excrab
9th Jan 2019, 12:42
Don't mean to be pedantic but as a rejected take off is normally done by the captain, it is up to him to decide even if the PF at the time was the other bloke?
Technically as soon as the word "Reject" is spoken the captain becomes PF, the Boeing SOP is that he or she has their hand on the thrust levers from the call of "thrust set" to "V1" even if the F/O is PF until the RTO begins (as I'm convinced you know), so it is the PF who decides how much braking/reverse to use.

As for the rest of the discussion, none of us are immune to errors, as rrramjet said it can happen to any one, and whilst experience levels may be an issue it's not always the case. We used to do the before take-off check list as soon as we got cabin secure, then someone decided they wanted us to do it at the holding point, because they said we shouldn't have the radar on so early during the taxi out. So shortly afterwards at some Sh*te hole in darkest Africa we were taxying out with all the normal distractions of mad bush pilots, mad Russian helicopters, pissing rain and incomprehensible ATC and only realised as we lined up that we hadn't done the before take-off checks (although the aircraft was at least correctly configured). that day on the flight deck I had twelve years experience on the 73 and the F/O had ten, and 29,000 hours logged between us, but we still got it wrong.

As for some of the other issues being raised, the Boeing on board performance tool doesn't require a 90 degree turn to line up, like we used to do, an allowance is built in depending if the runway entrance point is at 90 or 30 degrees or a 180 degree turn after a back track. And using the Boeing OPT for a max weight 800 at sea level, standard pressure and ISA plus 15 then calculations using optimum flap settings will give flap 1 for take-off for runways as short as 2000m if there are no obstacles, so as was suggested, the second video clip was almost certainly an early rotation or the aircraft wildly out of trim rather than an incorrect flap setting.

As was said earlier, there but for the grace of God....

VH DSJ
10th Jan 2019, 01:43
The commentary was friggin hilarious :E, you completely missed the point, and you have no idea how a 73 works.

As the previous poster said - the flaps were down. At least to 1. There would have been no takeoff Config warning.


I admit I have no idea how the 737 works not having flown one. On the Ejet however, having the wrong flap setting to what is set in the box would trigger the take-off config warning. I didn't realize the 73 was not that smart. :-)

VH DSJ
10th Jan 2019, 01:47
Sloppy or no checklist reading/briefing.
Anyone knows about the cockpit authority gradient in that outfit?
I know they have a few captains from the Royal Malaysian Air Force, and being from that region, it would be pretty steep from what I hear from friends.

Sparrows.
10th Jan 2019, 03:48
I admit I have no idea how the 737 works not having flown one. On the Ejet however, having the wrong flap setting to what is set in the box would trigger the take-off config warning. I didn't realize the 73 was not that smart. :-)

A320 isn’t that smart either!

The Green Goblin
10th Jan 2019, 05:35
The 320 will give you a takeoff config warning with no flap set. With the wrong flap it won’t.

I believe though with the new software upgrade it will give you a warning with the wrong takeoff flap similar to the bigger buses?

Anyone know if this is true?

machtuk
10th Jan 2019, 07:17
The 320 will give you a takeoff config warning with no flap set. With the wrong flap it won’t.

I believe though with the new software upgrade it will give you a warning with the wrong takeoff flap similar to the bigger buses?

Anyone know if this is true?

Probably cause you can T/Off with flaps 1, 2 or 3 set (not full) so 3 out of 4 flap settings are avail to launch in the 320?

The Green Goblin
10th Jan 2019, 08:18
Try taking off with flap 3 or 2 figures and setting flap 1.

It’ll ruin your day.

So it’s not because of flap1/2/3 takeoffs, its just the software was never upgraded to give you a warning.

The 330 had it from day dot. I’m pretty sure though with the step 2 upgrade it’s got an incorrect flap setting warning. I remember reading it somewhere obscure.

Willie Nelson
10th Jan 2019, 08:22
Can't speak for the 737 but the A320 SOP's infers that we do not disconnect the ramp engineer following our start up until the PM has completed their duties, right down to confirming the doors are armed. A number of the items in the after start scan could get you grounded, so even if it were not a requirement, seems sensible to me, especially when you consider that it only takes about 8 seconds to watch the PM complete their duties including set the flaps correctly. Of course it is in the checklist but that should be a last line of defence not the primary means. I beleive the 330 may not give you 'no blue' for takeoff if they're in the wrong position but I could be wrong.

I hate to say it but these guys are not the first to commence a takeoff with the wrong/no flaps set, nor will likely not be the last.

Bula
10th Jan 2019, 09:11
Willie, I would have to disagree a little with your sentiment about the Airbus inference you refer to, if we look a little closer the PF has his own duties while the PM conducts theirs. If you focus on their job rather than yours, or task switch in HUman Factors lingo, you will lead yourself open to additional slips and lapses.

As for disconnecting ground personnel, your brain allows you speak and watch action, two seperate single channel processes for the brain. I would argue that you can disconnect him while monitoring PM duties. Just do not get distracted by looking out the window until the PM has finished, otherwise the previous paragraph applies.

Forgetting or running over the dispatcher is also one of those items that will quickly have you grounded. In my humble opinion, get rid of them as part of your flow. A deliberate inaction, Not disconnecting the dispatcher, while awaiting another action, Status Review from the PM, increases the chances exponentially that the intended action will be forgotten. Complete your sequences in their entirety, or start from the beginning.

StudentInDebt
10th Jan 2019, 13:13
Previous operator had a fool-proof method for making sure the correct take-off flap setting was made before departure. As part of the after-start checklist the Flap check was the last item and was a prompt, the response was SET FLAP ____. The flaps were then checked again as part of the before take-off checklist both before line-up and after line-up (above and below the line). As I say, fool-proof, there were at least 2 or 3 mis-set flap occurances a month in the Flight Data Monitoring program highlights, the joke was everytime a manager flew and forgot to set the flaps another check was added...

PF/PM conflict? I use a “Flaps, trims, pin” silent review before taxi, great until i’m tired/distracted and we’re both in the same boat.....

Iron Bar
10th Jan 2019, 14:59
Shit happens -

Q , V and J crews have all made similar screw ups in 73’ 76’ 320 and 330.

I belive a J32 took off in about 99’ 2000’ with the flaps at 90’. EEEEEK!

maggot
10th Jan 2019, 15:09
As for disconnecting ground personnel, your brain allows you speak and watch action, two seperate single channel processes for the brain. I would argue that you can disconnect him while monitoring PM duties. Just do not get distracted by looking out the window until the PM has finished, otherwise the previous paragraph applies.

Forgetting or running over the dispatcher is also one of those items that will quickly have you grounded. In my humble opinion, get rid of them as part of your flow. A deliberate inaction, Not disconnecting the dispatcher, while awaiting another action, Status Review from the PM, increases the chances exponentially that the intended action will be forgotten. Complete your sequences in their entirety, or start from the beginning.


Or just follow your types SOP for when to disconnect em

exeng
10th Jan 2019, 17:51
Quite some years ago in a large British Airline a 737 attempted to depart with zero flaps. That pesky cabin altitude warning horn sounded and the chap in the LH seat realised that lack of flaps was the issue. His response: Set flap to 5 and continue with the departure. All seen on Flight Data Monitoring unfortunately, so the result was a swift left to right seat conversion.


kind regards
exeng

Bula
10th Jan 2019, 20:46
Maggot you are correct, the point being follow your flow in its entirety according to SOP. Don’t partially follow it in an attempt to wait for a subconscious trigger.

You can add additional “self checks”, but the trigger must be fool proof. However, it’s important to realise that these “self checks” are usually forgotten in high workload situations.

I know personally on the bus I use “Fuel, Flap, F$&k off list” when given a line up clearance on departure, and passing 1000’ on approach.

sheppey
11th Jan 2019, 11:42
IE an abort commenced at 45 KIAS on runway 34L at YSSY doesn't need max braking, spoilers (if you fly a type that requires they be manually extended), and max reverse - but I'll at least apply/select all of them - so it's the same process every time
Reverse is useless at 45 knots so it makes no sense to use it simply because it's the same process every time. On top of that you, are asking for a potential compressor stall at that speed with full reverse; especially if a strong crosswind is present.

josephfeatherweight
12th Jan 2019, 00:02
Sheppey - I think maybe you missed the "doesn't need" part of what I wrote?
Reverse AND Spoilers are both pretty useless at 45 knots - but they'll do no harm and I'll do the same actions every time.
But, each to their own! :)

belongamick
16th Jan 2019, 07:28
Surely not getting high on their own supply :p

Malindo Air cabin crew smuggled $21m worth of drugs into Australia, police allege
By Karen Percy (ABC News)

Police have busted an international drug syndicate that they allege has been using airline cabin crew on board flights from Malaysia to smuggle drugs into Australia over a number of years.

Investigators allege the drugs were carried on the bodies of cabin crew flying to Melbourne and Sydney Police seized luxury cars, $100,000 in cash and drugs during raids in Melbourne earlier this month. One of those alleged to have been involved in the syndicate told police he had made the trip to Australia 19 times before The Australian Federal Police (AFP) and Victoria Police have arrested eight people in the past 10 days who they allege brought heroin, methamphetamine and cocaine worth $21 million into Australia.

Commander Tess Walsh from Victoria Police said the arrests occurred as part of Operation Sunrise, which involved the AFP, Australian Border Force and the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission.

The joint investigative team has alleged that the syndicate used cabin crews at Malindo Air, a small airline based in Malaysia, to bring the drugs into the country.

Investigators allege the drugs were brought in via Melbourne and Sydney, carried on the bodies of the cabin crew.

One defendant allegedly told investigators it was his 20th trip into Australia.

"[Operation Sunrise] is a complex, five-month operation targeting an alleged Vietnamese organised crime syndicate based in Melbourne," Commander Walsh said.

Commander Walsh said police believed the syndicate had been operating for at least five years and that the drugs seized so far were clearly "not the total amount of drugs" alleged to have been imported.

"This is a significant seizure but I think reality would say that it's not the total amount of drugs that this team have brought into this country," she said.

"Intelligence would tell us that this crew has been operating for some years, I would say five plus … I don't know whether or not it's decades."

Eight arrested across Melbourne
Those arrested by police include a 38-year-old woman arrested on January 7 in Tullamarine, and another six people arrested in raids at Sunshine North and inner-city Melbourne a day later.

On January 14, a woman from Richmond was also arrested.

Two of the defendants were Vietnamese-born Australians.

Six kilograms of heroin were seized, as well as 8kg of methamphetamine and half a kilo of cocaine.

Luxury cars, $100,000 in cash and drug paraphernalia were also seized.

At least two of those arrested were cabin crew with Malindo Air.

Its website describes it as a "premium airline with headquarters in Petajaling Jaya", a town just outside of Kuala Lumpur.

Commander Walsh said the investigation is "active and ongoing".

Malindo Air has been contacted for comment.

(Apparently I need to post more and lurk less to post URLs properly abc.net.au/news/2019-01-16/airline-crews-involved-in-drug-smuggling-ring,-afp-allege/10719106)

PoppaJo
16th Jan 2019, 12:03
This I find more disturbing. Someone at Orange HQ working the phones to keep this one under the carpet I assume.

In June last year four foreign Jetstar flight attendants were sacked. Police said they were caught with 3.5kg of tobacco strapped to their bodies and hidden down their pants.