View Full Version : Gatwick Drone and the Regiment
langleybaston
3rd Jan 2019, 21:25
I gather that the "army" protecting Gatwick were Regiment. [There's a surprise!]
I am astounded that MoD have announced withdrawal of same. Does PR trump OPSEC these days? I cannot for the life of me see a logical reason for publicising end of military protection.
SASless
3rd Jan 2019, 21:29
If you are concerned about OPSEC....by announcing the termination of an Operation....were you as concerned about the publication of the start and conduct of the same Operation?
langleybaston
3rd Jan 2019, 21:45
If you are concerned about OPSEC....by announcing the termination of an Operation....were you as concerned about the publication of the start and conduct of the same Operation?
No, because I assume that the motive for deployment and publicity was reassurance and deterrence. [Plus the urge to be seen to be "doing something"]
By announcing departure we have lost both.
[Incidentally the army appear to get maximum credit, and the Regiment will be criticised if matters go tits up again.]
parabellum
4th Jan 2019, 02:07
And how can you be sure that the report the soldiers are leaving is true and not a deliberate lie to lull the offenders into a false sense of security and see if they bring their toys out again?
The SAS have an on going role in aviation security, including hi jacks etc. they have had since the seventies to my knowledge.
flensr
4th Jan 2019, 05:28
Over in the colonies, the last news that was even reported was the London mayor confirming that there might not have been any drones at all, right underneath the report that the only 2 people detained had been released without charges. Except for those directly involved, there seems to be a collective yawn in progress on this side of the pond.
I got lased twice on approach in the same city just a few days after the Gatwick UFO sightings, but I'm pretty sure nobody cares about that either :)
GeeRam
4th Jan 2019, 13:34
[Incidentally the army appear to get maximum credit, and the Regiment will be criticised if matters go tits up again.]
I was under the impression it was 14th Sigs that were deployed to Gatwick...?
Asturias56
4th Jan 2019, 13:45
The airlines and the airports are having to dig deep to pay for new kit - which they should have had anyway
It's not the RAF Regiments job to provide 24/7 coverage for people who can pay - if it did occur it wasn't a terrorist or military act anyway
airsound
4th Jan 2019, 17:29
I spent a happy few hours trying to get the Beeb report corrected, with reference to which bit of the military had been involved, and which kit had been deployed.
MoD did confirm to me that it was indeed the Rocks involved (not the Pongoes). I also understand that the Rafael 'Drone Dome' kit has not yet been delivered - so presumably it was Horizon, or somesuch.
If you check the latest version of the Beeb report (3 Jan), you'll see they have made the corrections.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-46741687
airsound
Lima Juliet
4th Jan 2019, 18:47
These little beauties are doing the rounds on FaceBook:
http://i68.tinypic.com/350ncb6.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/xkp3kh.jpg
Gatwick and Heathrow buying anti-drone equipment
Gatwick and Heathrow are to spend millions of pounds on anti-drone technology following the disruption at the Sussex airport before Christmas.
Gatwick and Heathrow have not disclosed the equipment they plan to use in future.
A Gatwick spokeswoman confirmed the airport had invested in new anti-drone defences after the disruption.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46754489
Onceapilot
4th Jan 2019, 21:47
I spent a happy few hours trying to get the Beeb report corrected, with reference to which bit of the military had been involved, and which kit had been deployed.
MoD did confirm to me that it was indeed the Rocks involved (not the Pongoes). I also understand that the Rafael 'Drone Dome' kit has not yet been delivered - so presumably it was Horizon, or somesuch.
If you check the latest version of the Beeb report (3 Jan), you'll see they have made the corrections.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-46741687
airsound
Great work AS!
It is amazing the complete horsesh1t that comes from HM Gov, MoD, Police etc... Are all "official" agencies completely immune to some accountability? :=
OAP
langleybaston
4th Jan 2019, 22:00
I fear so.
We have become a banana republic. Incompetence has become the acceptable norm. The pursuit of excellence is derided.
Over in the colonies, the last news that was even reported was the London mayor confirming that there might not have been any drones at all,
Not sure what it would have to do with the "London mayor" - Gatwick isn't in his area of responsibility because it's not in London (it's in West Sussex). The police force dealing with it isn't the one that reports to him either. So that just sounds like some hick colonial newshound spouting made-up news to me...
PDR
flensr
4th Jan 2019, 23:37
Zing! Caught a big one :)
You see, it was the "UK Police" at London Gatwick. Because as far as US media is concerned, Gatwick is in London and the UK is so small there is only one "UK Police" organization.
https://www.businessinsider.com/police-idea-gatwick-airport-drone-didnt-exist-poor-communication-report-2018-12
Here's another slightly more informative actual riveting news report also dated 24 Dec. Can't seem to find anything about it after that. Not kidding this time.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/24/uk-police-drone-at-gatwick-airport-suspects-released.html
SASless
5th Jan 2019, 03:12
Well it is the UK.....and sorry....but it is a small. place....really!
It is called LGW you know.....like London/Gatwick.
I night stopped there whenever possible so as to hit the "Curry Inn" in Horley followed by a longish visit to the Six Bells Pub.
Don't blame the American Media.....Journalism school is for those who cannot qualify for any other degree.
flensr
5th Jan 2019, 03:46
I spent 2 years living in Cambridge, loved it. Learned enough to "miss" the UK from just a decade or two ago. Maybe I'm just dreaming but I'm hoping Brexit will help the UK recapture their own unique spirit. I'm probably wrong but it was the history and heritage of the UK that I most loved and missed after I left.
For me a Google News search for Sadiq Khan and drones turns up... Nothing. Can you provide a link?
Pontius Navigator
5th Jan 2019, 07:15
I spent 2 years living in Cambridge, loved it. Learned enough to "miss" the UK from just a decade or two ago. Maybe I'm just dreaming but I'm hoping Brexit will help the UK recapture their own unique spirit. I'm probably wrong but it was the history and heritage of the UK that I most loved and missed after I left.
nice try, wrong thread (twice).
Start an new thread, perhaps in nostalgia 'I loved Cambridge, history and heritage '
Fortissimo
5th Jan 2019, 08:35
I got lased twice on approach in the same city just a few days after the Gatwick UFO sightings, but I'm pretty sure nobody cares about that either :)
Au contraire, there is an active UK Laser Working Group sponsored by DfT, which is how the law got changed last year. It is now illegal to use a laser against any form of transport, or ATC facilities, and it is now punishable by up to 5 years jail or an unlimited fine. So people do care...
I hope you reported the attacks as required by EC 376/2014, MOR etc? I’m told the Laser WG had to convince the Govt the problem was under-reported before anything got moving.
melmothtw
5th Jan 2019, 14:58
Quote:
Originally Posted by langleybaston
[Incidentally the army appear to get maximum credit, and the Regiment will be criticised if matters go tits up again.]
I was under the impression it was 14th Sigs that were deployed to Gatwick...?
I was under the impression it was TCW.
Don't blame the American Media.....Journalism school is for those who cannot qualify for any other degree.
Speaking as a journalist SASless, it is true when they say; "Those that can, do. Those that can't, write about it."
langleybaston
5th Jan 2019, 20:27
It is as if there is a news blackout over the "crisis".
Either that or there is nothing to report .......... no progress by plod.
As days go by the lack of evidence except eyewitnesses [reliable or unreliable] must surely lead us to deploy Occam's Razor and the dictum of Sherlock Holmes.
kaitakbowler
6th Jan 2019, 08:25
www.gov.uk/government/news/dstl-bristow-trial-develops-future-protection-against-hostile-uas
I guess 3 1/2 years isn't long enough for the trial results to bear fruit, in terms of procurement?
Pm
Asturias56
6th Jan 2019, 08:54
Oh it's long enough - the problem is finding the cash to do anything about any recommendations - so the report stays "pending" until someone figures out what weasel words can be used to avoid actually doing anything................
Clockwork Mouse
6th Jan 2019, 15:36
This thread reveals the extent of the Crabs inferiority complex and that they still believe that Pprune Mil Aviation is all about them.
langleybaston
6th Jan 2019, 15:47
This thread reveals the extent of the Crabs inferiority complex and that they still believe that Pprune Mil Aviation is all about them.
So it was the army that won the Battle of Gatwick 2018 was it?
Which unit?
diginagain
6th Jan 2019, 16:14
It is as if there is a news blackout over the "crisis".
Either that or there is nothing to report .......... no progress by plod.
As days go by the lack of evidence except eyewitnesses [reliable or unreliable] must surely lead us to deploy Occam's Razor and the dictum of Sherlock Holmes.
I'm more for 'Crabtree's Bludgeon' myself...
pax britanica
6th Jan 2019, 16:23
If the Government as whole, MOD Dept of transport and branches of the military along with the owners of LHR and LGW all behaved in a tardy and inefficient manner then it surely will result in a mass cover up as they all back each other up. It is however very much an example of UL 2018/9 that people do not do the bleedin' obvious usually because some accountant has ruled theres no business case for it or it doesnt 'drive incremental revenues' (and therefore my bonus as CEO where spending a few million is a cost and that negatively affects my businesses as CEO. In fact it probably a certainty that neither CEO has 'keep airport operating in all reasonable circumstances as an objective anyway' . Protection from drones is certainly within today's world of reasonable circumstances.
I do not blame the military that much though, they do what they are asked and if no one asked them to prepare for this threat it is not their fault but it does show a stunning degree of unpreparedness for something thats been discussed on here -just one example-for years.
Could be the last?
6th Jan 2019, 16:32
A56, don’t forget that the first recommendation of any DSTL research is...... more research.
My understanding is that the aim of Bristow 15 was not to find a specific solution (there isn’t one to fit all scenarios) but to understand the technology of what is being pushed by industry. More importantly, with many ‘snake oil’ salesmen and women out there, there is a lot of work required to understand what the glossy mags say kit can do versus the reality of what the tech actually delivers. (Recall Mine detectors that were actually devices for finding golf balls.) Bristow 15 and the more recent 18, plus a myriad of other trials have gone a long way to understanding what the necessary requirements for a counter-UAS solution should be and ultimately make MoD an intelligent customer (shocker!).
Now many would think that the solution for a capability to identify and disable a ‘drone’ would be relatively simple, you would have expected companies who produce complex platforms such as the QEC or F35 or even companies that produce the various DAS components would have generated a robust fix already - they haven’t. However, various agencies inc the Regt are considerably further down the road in understanding what can be fielded, it is just a question of $€£ to keep the project(s) going.
Again my understanding is that multiple agencies, OGDs and FLCs have all supported activity to address the risks associated with drones of all catergories, at a tactical level there has been some superb cooperation but as one of the posts alludes too, this is not a quick fix and the money and continuity of personnel required to see the various strands of R&D through to a conclusion is just not there!
Maybe for 2019, post ‘Gatwick-Gate’, a small amount of money may now be forthcoming and allow the work done to date to be full exploited. Or B, the cheque is in the post.........
handleturning
6th Jan 2019, 20:03
If the Government as whole, MOD Dept of transport and branches of the military along with the owners of LHR and LGW all behaved in a tardy and inefficient manner then it surely will result in a mass cover up as they all back each other up. It is however very much an example of UL 2018/9 that people do not do the bleedin' obvious usually because some accountant has ruled theres no business case for it or it doesnt 'drive incremental revenues' (and therefore my bonus as CEO where spending a few million is a cost and that negatively affects my businesses as CEO. In fact it probably a certainty that neither CEO has 'keep airport operating in all reasonable circumstances as an objective anyway' . Protection from drones is certainly within today's world of reasonable circumstances.
I do not blame the military that much though, they do what they are asked and if no one asked them to prepare for this threat it is not their fault but it does show a stunning degree of unpreparedness for something thats been discussed on here -just one example-for years.
Bit harsh really. There are of companies claiming a counter drone capability, but it's a fairly fragile offering that often takes little account of the complex environment. For example, I've met plenty of manufacturers' who think it's ok to rock up at Heathrow with a jammer. Plenty f work has been done and no doubt it will now accelerate, but there's no point solving one problem if it causes a bigger one.
parabellum
7th Jan 2019, 00:31
t is as if there is a news blackout over the "crisis".
Either that or there is nothing to report .......... no progress by plod.
Quite possibly the authorities have simply applied a 'need to know' policy, those that need to know will and those that don't, won't.
Davef68
7th Jan 2019, 08:27
I gather that the "army" protecting Gatwick were Regiment. [There's a surprise!]
...
The SAS have an on going role in aviation security, including hi jacks etc. they have had since the seventies to my knowledge.
I
MoD did confirm to me that it was indeed the Rocks involved (not the Pongoes).
The dangers of using shorthand phrases that mean different things to different people!
ShotOne
7th Jan 2019, 14:16
“...won the battle of Gatwick“. So this was a victory??
Doctor Cruces
7th Jan 2019, 14:29
Oh it's long enough - the problem is finding the cash to do anything about any recommendations - so the report stays "pending" until someone figures out what weasel words can be used to avoid actually doing anything................
The words are usually "Lessons will be learned...."
So it was the army that won the Battle of Gatwick 2018 was it?
Which unit?
Well it certainly wasn't the Royal Air Farce...Clockwork Mousey hits the nail on the head.
Will the Middle Ginger Stepchild of the UK Armed Forces - sorry - 2 Armed Forces and and Part-time Civvy Detachment ever get over itself?
Timelord
7th Jan 2019, 15:57
This thread reveals the extent of the Crabs inferiority complex and that they still believe that Pprune Mil Aviation is all about them.
Surely this thread is about who provided the military assistance to Gatwick. Some believe it was the RAF Regiment so yes, it could be about the RAF. I have no idea which unit was involved, if you do, perhaps you could provide your input.
gijoe - Happy New Year to you too.
Rheinstorff
7th Jan 2019, 16:08
Seems clear, RAF Regiment:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-46741687
handleturning
7th Jan 2019, 16:16
Doesn't really matter does it? The Military responded to a request for help, did a good job and left in time for Christmas. Good effort by those involved, regardless of the colour of their uniforms.
Timelord
7th Jan 2019, 16:20
Well said handle. Shall we start a campaign for inter service civility?
Jackonicko
7th Jan 2019, 16:29
I'm sorry Timelord, but you should have waited almost four months to post that.....!
Timelord
7th Jan 2019, 16:52
I'm sorry Timelord, but you should have waited almost four months to post that.....!
Of course! The Hundred and first anniversary.
THIS IS A JOKE - I Know what he meant.
langleybaston
7th Jan 2019, 17:47
I think it usual on this part of the Forum for rocks = Regiment = RAF Regiment.
Apologies if I accidentally attempted to attribute clearing up the Gatwick mess to other than the Royal Air Force Regiment knuckle-draggers.
[I jest ..... my son was a Rock]
airsound
7th Jan 2019, 18:08
Oh dear, sorry. 'Twas me wot said 'Rocks' and 'Pongoes'. Should have known better.
But my original objection was that the Beeb (oops, sorry BBC) was saying the Army (with a capital A) was doing it. That says to me, a unit of the Army, not the Air Force or the Navy. Had they put 'army' (sometimes shorthand for 'military'), that would have been more acceptable. But when I investigated, it was confirmed that it was the RAF Regiment, aka (fondly) Rockapes or just Rocks. Perhaps it was the RAF Force Protection Centre, although I haven't yet been able to establish that. But it is the RAF Regiment that is tasked with protecting airfields. So the excellent Rocks should surely get the credit on this occasion.
As for Pongoes - well, that is a slightly more insulting term. But still fond!
airsound
Founder member of SODCAT. Pick the bits out of that
melmothtw
7th Jan 2019, 18:17
RAF Regiment or not, TCW was certainly there.
airsound
7th Jan 2019, 18:30
TCW - Tactical Communications Wing - now part of 90 Signals Unit, stationed at RAF Leeming.
airsound
Well we lost a rather good definition of TCW there (in jest, natch), from melmothw - "two see-you-next-thursday's and a wireless".
langleybaston
7th Jan 2019, 21:24
Is the Mobile Met Unit part of TCW these days please?
Rheinstorff
8th Jan 2019, 07:08
RAF Regiment or not, TCW was certainly there.
I don’t think there’s any doubt that the RAF Regiment was certainly there; MOD has confirmed it. It’s not that difficult to grasp surely?
BEagle
8th Jan 2019, 07:22
Does it really matter whether assistance to the civil powers at Gatwick was provided by the RAF Regiment or some bunch of pongos from the Queen's Own Chinless Pwancers, the Royal Donkey Wallopers or whoever?
Although with the dung eaters' reputation for crashing their own drones, I guess it seems only fitting that they might have been sent to Gatwick to advise on how to crash other peoples'?
Whether Grayling's new 'no drone zones' around aerodromes will reduce the drone problem remains to be seen. Would a determined drone operator out to cause a public nuisance pay any attention to them? Somehow I doubt it.
Rheinstorff
8th Jan 2019, 07:50
Does it really matter whether assistance to the civil powers at Gatwick was provided by the RAF Regiment or some bunch of pongos from the Queen's Own Chinless Pwancers, the Royal Donkey Wallopers or whoever?
Only in as much as it was the point of this thread...
However, there are a number of other reasons why it matters, not least recognition where it is due. I would have thought - OPSEC allowing - it quite annoying for others to be given credit for something they didn’t do whilst those who actually did the work are ignored.
We we have a political class and a public that are generally not well informed about Defence matters. Allowing incorrect information to propagate hardly helps either constituency understand Defence better or make the right choices around it.
melmothtw
8th Jan 2019, 08:40
...it quite annoying for others to be given credit for something they didn’t do whilst those who actually did the work are ignored.
Wait until you find out what OBE stands for.
Transport Secretary has stated that the military will be deployed at Heathrow if it proves necessary. Departures have stopped at Heathrow due to a suspected drone sighting.
https://twitter.com/BondySi/status/1082696314616496128
LHR is now Ops Normal, with obvious backlogs and congestion.
Any teenager with 8 brain-cells can stop LHR at any time.
This thread reveals the extent of the Crabs inferiority complex and that they still believe that Pprune Mil Aviation is all about them.
Grow up-you're 77 allegedly.