Red Arrows on channel 5 - 'Kings Of The Sky'

[Nige321]

New 6-part series coming January 9th on Channel 5
Documentary series following Britain's premier flight squadron. A new team leader arrives to design and develop fresh and ambitious manoeuvres for the 2018 season. (S1 Ep 1)
Channel 5 (https://www.channel5.com/show/red-arrows-kings-of-the-sky/)

Channel 5 has commissioned ITV Studios-owned production label Shiver for a six-part doc series on aerobatic squadron the Red Arrows.The channel has ordered a 6 x 60-minute series entitled The Red Arrows: Kings Of The Sky, which is to air on 9 January at 9pm.

The Red Arrows are the world’s most renowned aerobatic display team, famous for precision flying and synchronised manoeuvres.Across the series, Channel 5 tells the story of the squadron as it creates a new display and embarks on a challenging season. The series also showcases the work of the ground crews, engineers and back room teams who help to coordinate shows. The Red Arrows: Kings of the Sky is produced and directed for Shiver by Jamie Simpson.

The series is the third military programme recently commissioned by Channel 5, following the success of Warship: Life at Sea and Raw Recruits: Squaddies at 16.Guy Davies, commissioning editor for factual at Channel 5, said: “We are incredibly proud to deliver the most in-depth documentary on the Red Arrows in a generation. We’ll get to know the cast of characters, and put Channel 5 viewers right at the heart of the action, giving them a taste of what it’s like to be in the cockpit of a jet flying complex aerobatics at 600 mph, within just six feet of its neighbour’s wing tips.”Mike Blair, exec producer at Shiver, added: “This is a series that not only showcases some of the most jaw-dropping flying and aerobatics, it also gets up close and personal to an amazing group of people, the pilots and engineers who make up the Red Arrows. They gave us 12 months of access during one of the hardest years in their history, revealing their human face as they dealt with tragedy, and their passion and professionalism in the sky and on the ground.”

[Parson]

"600 mph within just six feet of its neighbour's wing tips" - is that right?

[Pure Pursuit]

Distance wise, yes, whilst in formation. Speed wise, no! I think they’re closer to around 360 knots

Oppostion passes are 100ft apart.

[Tankertrashnav]

As this is Channel 5 I assume we will be treated to the usual time wasting nonsense of them telling us what's coming up after the break, and then after the break reminding us that we are watching a programme about the Red Arrows, in case we had forgotten! If it's anything like their recent effort on the RAF's last 100 years I'm not holding out much hope.

600 mph? I doubt if their routines are done at that sort of speed, but in any case as Pure Pursuit points out its the relative speed that matters.

[Nige321]

All rather Channel 5...:D

[Pure Pursuit]

All rather Channel 5...:D

Actually, the team came over very well. Far better than previous efforts.

Well done Channel 5 (never thought I’d ever say that!).

[Phantom Driver]

Actually, the team came over very well. Far better than previous efforts.

Agree 100% . Let's hope the other episodes continue in similar manner .
(poignant note ; interesting account about the collision on the opposition crossover; very lucky to have just one ejection and no fatalities . Brought back memories of my instructor on Gnats at Valley in the early '70s ( Ted G ) . Joined the Arrows shortly after and 2 jets collided doing the same type of manoeuvre during training . Sadly , Ted was one of the four who lost their lives that day)

[Good Business Sense]

Really enjoyed the program - absolutely wonderful to see the wee boy who used to live next door in a red suit :)

[jimjim1]

Thanks.

and some padding

[Old and Horrified]

I enjoyed the programme but that last approach (at about 54 mins in) seemed to me to be extremely low and to barely reach the threshold of a very long runway. Is that a normal approach for the Red Arrows?

[orca]

All landings get low at some point!😉

[spekesoftly]

Judging by the tyre marks on the piano keys, it's a regular occurrence. Great programme.

[MPN11]

Having become inured to the Reds’ documentaries over the decades, with increasing apathy, I confess I enjoyed this.

Less bullsh*t and more in-depth than usual. Less diddley-up, more about the people who DO IT!

7/10 ... actually looking forward to next episodes.

[AeroSpark]

Very enjoyable programme, really looking forward to the rest of the series (and to seeing them in the flesh a few times this summer!).
One thing I thought odd though, is it normal to go from an operational squadron stright into Red 1? I assumed the new leader was taken from the existing team?

[Tashengurt]

Very enjoyable programme, really looking forward to the rest of the series (and to seeing them in the flesh a few times this summer!).
One thing I thought odd though, is it normal to go from an operational squadron stright into Red 1? I assumed the new leader was taken from the existing team?

Hadn't he been on the team fairly recently? I'm sure he features on my lads reds poster from 2016

[champair79]

Most do their 3 years on the team, head off to a ‘normal’ flying role in the RAF before a select few get recalled and asked to lead the team. So yes, almost always Red 1 will come from outside the RAFAT initially although they must’ve served with the team before.

Champ

[Percy Cute]

Acres better than anything the BBC has done broadcast recently.
Mr Phantom driver: check your facts and edit your posting. Duff gen can cause distress to families.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Quite an enjoyable programme.

[RetiredBA/BY]

Acres better than anything the BBC has done recently.
Mr Phantom driver: check your facts and edit your posting. Duff gen can cause distress to families.
There certainly seems to be some confusion there.

The crossover collision occurred at Kemble on Jan 20th 1971 and Ted G was not one if the four pilots lost.

I had been night flying at K very early on 20th before recovering to CFS at LR. So remember the tragedy only too well.

The backseaters were to be new team members.

[Nige321]

Acres better than anything the BBC has done recently.
Mr Phantom driver: check your facts and edit your posting. Duff gen can cause distress to families.

The BBC, channel 5, C4 and ITV don't 'make' programmes like this.
The series was made by an independant production company.
It could easily have ended up on the BBC if they had chosen to pick it up.

The production values are down to the team who make it, not the broadcaster...

[daylyt]

Thank you for the intervention RetiredBA/BY.

[Lyneham Lad]

Not a fan of Channel 5 but given the positive posts here I decided to watch it last night. Well worth it - an informative and entertaining programme. Hopefully the rest of the series will maintain the standard set by the first episode.

[Brian 48nav]

Retired BA/BY

I lived down the road from Kemble and I'm pretty sure there were 2 crossover collisions - the date you gave sounds right for the first and the other was a couple of years later and involved a former leader down from MOD for a visit. IIRC he was the leader in 1970 when my crew on 30 supported them to Cologne/Bonn and then back to Farnborough for the '70 Air Show, still September in those days. We gave a few of them a lift back to Fairford, where I guess they got MT back to Rissie. Just checked my logbook and we had started from Gaydon where they were temporarily detached - runway resurfacing perhaps at Kemble?
The name Dennis Hazell keeps coming into my head - apologies to all if that's wrong!

PS Are you the guy I met at Stack Butterley's house in the early 90s?

[RetiredBA/BY]

I think you are right about Denis Hazell. He was on a visit to the Reds and taking a refamil trip.

Dont think his fatal was a collision but the accident happened after I had left CFS.so cant be certain.

Never went to Stack’ s house but he was a QFI at Acklington when I went through and. I flew with him on a number of occasions when he was a Concorde captain.

[Phantom Driver]

Acres better than anything the BBC has done broadcast recently.
Mr Phantom driver: check your facts and edit your posting. Duff gen can cause distress to families.

Duff gen indeed , for which sincere apologies to all . Ted was lost many years later in a solo vintage aircraft display .

[Brian 48nav]

Retired BA/BY

I "Googled' after I had made my post and I was right about the name, but wrong about the details - as you said he was not killed in a collision, and it was later in the 70s than I thought.

Stack lived in the same village as me in North Dorset for a few years, and once at his house there was an ex-Herc guy I had not known, that Stack had met when he used to fly BA 747s down to the Falklands. IIRC the guy had joined BY at his 38pt and after a year or two joined BA - hence I made the wrong assumption! IIRC initials LR.

I did my LHR ATCO Concorde jolly with Stack - absolute star! He could tell jokes all night and had everyone in our pub in stitches.

Apologies for the thread drift folks.

[MaxR]

I've only seen the trailer to this which I found more amusing than anything. Particularly fond of the team member pointing to the word "Éclat" on his badge and saying "That means excellence" when, of course, it doesn't.

[Two's in]

The thing to remember is professional aviators will always be more critical of a programme like this than Joe Public. I was actually back in the UK and saw the first episode and thought it was a masterful piece of recruitment material for the RAF, in addition to highlighting the skills of the team. It seemed far more effective than the official recruitment drivel for all 3 services I saw during the various adverts.

[Clockwork Mouse]

I've only seen the trailer to this which I found more amusing than anything. Particularly fond of the team member pointing to the word "Éclat" on his badge and saying "That means excellence" when, of course, it doesn't.
It was Lingy and it means brilliance, which is much the same in context. Is that all you’ve got to say about the programme? Get a life.

[MaxR]

It was Lingy and it means brilliance, which is much the same in context. Is that all you’ve got to say about the programme? Get a life.



Well, it doesn't quite mean brilliance - certainly not in the sense of excellence - and, if you read my post you'd realise that, this is all I have to say about the trailer.

[jindabyne]

Extremely well produced, and highly watchable. And nice to see some old faces still around, at the Cranwell dinner

[oldmansquipper]

Much better than many of its predecessors. (IMHO) Such a pleasure to have a reasonably put together commentary.

Without wishing to appear 'Northist' I was relieved that here was a documentary with none of the extremely irritating narrative clips shouted in an excitable north eastern accent. If you get my meaning? ��

[langleybaston]

Agreed, and I also think that the dialogues/accents/speech patterns on the Reds' programme were more easy on the ear [more RP for want of a better phrase] than the Warship version.
Producers do so like "posh" officer voice stereotypes and assorted other rank Cockneys, Geordies and Yokels. I don't think I missed a meaning or a word, and I wear two hearing aids.
Well done.

[MaxR]

I finally got round to watching the first programme tonight and it was really very good. Lingy's still wrong about the meaning of Éclat, though. 😁

[SimonK]

Hats off to the Reds and the rest of the team, they came across really well. Very sad to see the engineer who was killed at Valley in the programme last night, he came across as an exceptionally talented chap and really excited about being part of the circus. RIP.

[Arfur Dent]

Excellent programme for those of us who have done that kind of flying (FJ) and for non-pilots too. Very sad seeing what a nice young man the engineer was who died in the Valley accident was. Mike Ling took the pilot involved's place as Red 3 for his last of 10 years with the Team. Great tragedy all round. Well done to him and congrats on his award given by the Honourable Company at their Trophies and Awards ceremony last Autumn.
The meaning of "Eclat" can be interpreted as "Excellence" - especially in this context. How petty some people can be.
Can't wait for the rest of the series.

[mark25787]

From the Red Arrows history section of the RAF Website - Red Arrows (https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/)

The Gnat, which had flown 1,292 displays, was replaced by the BAE Systems Hawk, a modified version of the RAF’s fast jet and weapons trainer, for the 1980 season. Also that year, permission was given for the team to have the motto Eclat – meaning excellence.

For my two-penneth, it's an excellent program which my whole family has been able to sit down and watch and find very interesting and enjoyable; for me as a PPL holder, my wife who puts up with my unhealthy obsession with aviation and my kids who have seen many displays and met the pilots several times over the past few years!

[Coltishall. loved it]

Enjoyed it. But how long have the blues been doing that "Marching around like the Thunderbirds ground crew thing?" I just find it a tad embarrassing to be honest?

[RetiredBA/BY]

I enjoyed the progamme but:

Surely the new former fighter pilots have LOTS of experience of formation flying, so why the big deal made by the commentator, or thats how it seemed. . The guys did brilliantly.
Secondly, why on eath. do the blues need to swin 4 lengrhs of a pool in a flying suit ?

In my day, dinghy drill, the training was to board your dinghy attached
to your life jacket, supported by your Mae West, and in an immersion suit. Etc.,
No swimming required !

Other than that, first class, brought back a lot of memories, as a QFI !

Anyway, really look forward to their displsys this season, they always make the hard things, such as formation changes when pulling G, look so smooth and precise.

[Tashengurt]

I think they're doing pretty well with balancing the human interest with factual bits. The segment about reference points was interesting.
it's going to be interesting (and poignant) to see how they deal with the loss of one of their focal characters. I'm assuming his family were consulted and I hope its something of a legacy for him.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Not a great fan of television at the best of times, but I was impressed with last night's presentation. Came over very nicely, I thought. Brought back some fond memories of the early '70's when I escorted the team (Gnats) over the "pond" on their first trip to the States (I had the Vulcan!). Great bunch then and they still seem to have the same attitude today! Keep going, guys!

Bill

[OldAgeandTreachery]

Much was made,in the second episode,of the photographer being awarded and securing her position in "The Circus". In the commentary about them it was mentioned that they fly in the rear seat and then service the jet after transit. Who then does the work on the photographers aircraft? She is in a non techie trade and cannot carry out flight servicings:- So does someone have to double up?
Agree that it seems to give good coverage to the squadron and not just the "Red" bit.

[andrewn]

Like some on here, I tend to almost deliberately stay away from series like this for fear of being disappointed, but given the recommendations from family, and the good words here, I watched last nights episode.

I thought it was OK, but nothing more for me anyway. I found some of the flying sequences a bit repetitive, and the same with much of the ground stuff as well.

Some of the insight into the how the Reds function as a unit, and how different they appear to be from any other RAF squadron, was interesting. I kind of expected much of the uniqueness of the Reds to have been ironed out by successive H&S and compliance mandates, but glad it seems to still persevere!

Was also sad to see the shocking state of their line hut / accommodation, and Scampton generally. Can't help but thinkng there's nowhere better (location wise) for them though. Even if they end up moving down the A1 to Wittering you can imagine they'd still use the overhead for practicing, just like they did last time they closed Scampton.

I just wish the government would grow some balls, and a sense of pride, and spend some cash on the poor place!

And, yes, I also was moved by the footage of the Cpl - very sad loss obviously.

[Wensleydale]

Surely the new pilots have LOTS of experience of formation flying, so why the big deal?
Secondly, why on eath. do the blues need to swin 4 lengrhs of a pool in a flying suit ?

In my day, dinghy drill, the training was to board your dinghy attached
, to your life jacket, supported by your Mae West, and an in immersion suit. Etc.,

No swimming required !


You obviously retired before the PTIs got their hands on the currency checklists!!

[H Peacock]

Surely the new pilots have LOTS of experience of formation flying, so why the big deal?

Because the guys gave to learn to do so much of it 'procedurally' . Does any other outfit teach guys to start applying a control input based on the leader's voice command? If you get the chance to fly with the team you'll see how impressive it is! The only way to make a big formation that tight whilst manoeuvring!

[Tashengurt]

. Does any other outfit teach guys to start applying a control input based on the leader's voice command?

I believe the Blue angels use the same method.

[Stitchbitch]

I believe the Blue angels use the same method.

..as did the ex-Reds fighter pilots on the Flight.

Listening to the comms during the opposition Spit display at RIAT one year, you’d have been forgiven for thinking they’d been on the Helium during strap in. 🤣. Old habits never fade?

[kemblejet01]

Back when Team pilots had hair, Boss had Joe Pasquale in the boot. Rest of us did the radio calls in Pasquale style. Infantile humour appreciated by the man himself.

[Odanrot]

When little joe was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up he replied, a fighter pilot!

Dont’t be silly his mother replied, you can’t do both!
I remember 1980 (I think) when I helped convert the Arrows from Gnats to Hawks, it was much the same.

[Odanrot]

Another thought. Soon, like 3 days, it’s the anniversary of the Kemble head on in 1971. John Haddock died in that accident. He was my first QFI at Syerston. Not an easy man to get to know but the reason I flew fast jets.

Respect, good memories and thanks.

[Il Duce]

From Wednesday's episode I take it that if a member of the Circus is flying in the back and he/she and the pilot have to eject over water, the pilot is rescued by helicopter and the Circus member is rescued by boat?

[sycamore]

ID,it used to be that the pilot could walk home...

[BVRAAM]

This series has given me a whole new level of respect for Red 1.

I can't even begin to imagine how much capacity is required to talk in the way he does while keeping the jet in formation and making those control inputs. "Perty" is a legend.

[MPN11]

Three episodes in and I am still rather impressed by the sensible detail instead of the usual Meeja bullshot.

A very convincing expose of what really is involved in doing ‘diddley-up’ and, indeed, flying ‘quite fast’ jets. Respect.

[orca]

I think the programme is brilliant - and I’ll be honest, I’m impressed by what they do - but have never been an an out and out fan of the nation possessing an aerobatic team from a capability stand point.
My only pick up point is the voice over to the opening shots which implies that the team are all combat veterans...which I’m not sure is correct.
I think that there’s something appropriate in the frugality of the set up. Just my opinion but white boards and traditional accommodation is spot on for a unit practising close formation in Hawks. They do it very well and they’re coming across brilliantly.

[MPN11]

I was actually admiring the office accommodation for a flt lt, which in my day as a wg cdr at MoD had 5 senior officers in about that space!!

[Megaton]

I was actually admiring the office accommodation for a flt lt


Their own office is one of the perks of being part of the Synchro Pair. None of the other pilots, bar Red 1, has one.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I think the programme is brilliant - and I’ll be honest, I’m impressed by what they do - but have never been an an out and out fan of the nation possessing an aerobatic team from a capability stand point.
My only pick up point is the voice over to the opening shots which implies that the team are all combat veterans...which I’m not sure is correct.
I think that there’s something appropriate in the frugality of the set up. Just my opinion but white boards and traditional accommodation is spot on for a unit practising close formation in Hawks. They do it very well and they’re coming across brilliantly.
Orca - not having a dig, but I'd be interested to know how many people in the RAF who have operated a front line aircraft at the present time are NOT combat veterans (if we define "combat" as an operational tour where where some operational effect is delivered, for the sake of our multi-engine brethren.)

As for the reds, I'm pretty confident that all of them have done a det or 6 to a sunny eastern med location or, even better, further east. I stand ready to be corrected though, there's always someone who manages to buck the trend.

[Melchett01]

Orca - not having a dig, but I'd be interested to know how many people in the RAF who have operated a front line aircraft at the present time are NOT combat veterans (if we define "combat" as an operational tour where where some operational effect is delivered, for the sake of our multi-engine brethren.)

As for the reds, I'm pretty confident that all of them have done a det or 6 to a sunny eastern med location or, even better, further east. I stand ready to be corrected though, there's always someone who manages to buck the trend.

One of the criteria for selection is that they must have completed a front line role. By that very point, given the UK’s constant involvement in the Middle East and Asia since 1991 they will have some form of operational experience under their belts. A fair few of the current crop also appear to have a Hawk background beyond being a student, either having a tour as an instructor or on 100 Sqn which probably gives them a greater degree of ‘feel’ and experience for handling the Hawk.

Red Arrows team members (https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/the-team/)

[orca]

Thank you to the last two posters. I am aware of the selection criteria and the Op tempo. I am however not swayed by the ‘therefore they must have’ argument. I’m still not convinced that all the Hawk operators we’ve seen are veterans of combat, which is not a dig at their commitment, professionalism or how brilliantly they’re coming across.

Edited to add: If one were to have a brief look at the mess dinner in episode 1 you could conclude that MOD agrees that at least two of the team are not combat veterans. Or they are choosing not to wear campaign medals...which would be odd. This matters not a jot - my point was about an inaccurate voice over.

FWIW - and far more emotively I hold the belief, rightly or wrongly, that only a subset of those with campaign medals will actually be combat veterans as the criteria for award rarely features combat. I would define a combat veteran as anyone who was within effective weapons range of hostiles during fighting, or similar.

Excellent programme.

[jindabyne]

Combat ready?

[oldmansquipper]

I was actually admiring the office accommodation for a flt lt, which in my day as a wg cdr at MoD had 5 senior officers in about that space!!

After I retired, I recall visiting an old mate at HQSTC on business. He was an Engineer Gp Capt by this time. He was in a very small outer office with another Gp Capt along side him. They were 'supervised' by a mid grade civil servant who had her own inner office.

Progress I guess?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

FWIW - and far more emotively I hold the belief, rightly or wrongly, that only a subset of those with campaign medals will actually be combat veterans as the criteria for award rarely features combat. I would define a combat veteran as anyone who was within effective weapons range of hostiles during fighting, or similar.

Excellent programme.

I'm interested in your definition Orca (and certainly not wishing to pick a fight), but by extension to your definition, most RAF FJ pilots from the Shader era are not "combat veterans" despite having dropped live weapons on to hostile forces (who may indeed be in contact with friendly forces at the time). I think a few people (not least a few DFC recipients) might choose to disagree?

[orca]

How did they drop weapons on people if they weren’t within effective weapons range?

If they were employing lethal force then they were certainly fighting within effective weapon range.

My definition probably falls down when it comes to the drone community. Maybe I should have just said that a combat vet is exactly that, not someone who spent time in a JOA.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

My bad, I thought you meant effective weapons range of an enemy weapons system! Drone operators will always be a challenignc one to define I agree, though I've absolute respect for what they do/go through.

[BEagle]

orca wrote:I would define a combat veteran as anyone who was within effective weapons range of hostiles during fighting, or similar.

Such as everyone subjected to Scud attacks in GW1? Not a particularly good determinant...

It is indeed a very good programme - this week's will be very interesting.

[Tashengurt]

orca wrote:

Such as everyone subjected to Scud attacks in GW1? Not a particularly good determinant...

It is indeed a very good programme - this week's will be very interesting.

I was thinking along similar lines to BEagle.
I was on the receiving end of Scuds at Dharhan but I wouldn't consider myself a combat veteran. I think that's stretching the definition.

[orca]

Without wanting to labour the point Beagle, Tashengurt - if you (or anyone else) came under an attack then you were within effective weapons range...

I would, however like to apologise for my part in definition/ pedantry/ thread drift etc which has spawned from simply pointing out that the voice over was incorrect in an otherwise great programme.

[Tay Cough]

Nicely done without being over the top. I may even head to Scampton this afternoon to watch if anyone knows which slot they’re using.

Eclat means brilliant. :}

[Timelord]

Bravo Zulu to the film makers. That was a difficult subject tastefully and respectfully done.

[Parson]

Did Starky not recover sufficiently to rejoin the team for 2019?

[DON T]

Bravo Zulu to the film makers. That was a difficult subject tastefully and respectfully done.


Couldn’t agree more.👍

[DON T]

Did Starky not recover sufficiently to rejoin the team for 2019?


He is not included in the Team:

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/news/training-begins-for-new-red-arrows-pilots-and-2019-display-season/

[Parson]

DON T - yeah i know, thats why I asked. I was wondering if he hadnt recovered sufficiently to rejoin.

[thegypsy]

Just watched the latest which I recorded and somewhat disappointed to hear the leader pronounce schedule as skedule:rolleyes:

Got off a BA flight ( A320 ) where the F/O who was flying it stood by the door when we were offloading at LHR ( When did they start doing that? ) who likewise pronounced it as skedule. I probably embarrassed him by pointing out the errors of his ways poor lad. I keep hearing it on BBC too from people who should know better.

[Nige321]

Just watched the latest which I recorded and somewhat disappointed to hear the leader pronounce schedule as skedule:rolleyes:

Got off a BA flight ( A320 ) where the F/O who was flying it stood by the door when we were offloading at LHR ( When did they start doing that? ) who likewise pronounced it as skedule. I probably embarrassed him by pointing out the errors of his ways poor lad. I keep hearing it on BBC too from people who should know better.

No, you just embarressed yourself...:ugh:

[XV490]

Just watched the latest which I recorded and somewhat disappointed to hear the leader pronounce schedule as skedule
In reply to which our American friends ask: "So why do you Brits say 'skool'?"
Anyway, excellent effort by Channel 5, for a change.

[BEagle]

Bastardisation of the English language is deplorable - even the BBC has dropped its RP standards due to the Islington metrognomes and the influence of meeja-city Northern English accents. Tha' knaws

A few examples:
'Reeesearch' instead of 'Rissearch'
"I'm good" instead of "I'm well" or "I'm fine"
Americans stress the wrong word in 2 word phrases such as 'Robin Hood' or 'Top Gear'- so now the BBC uses 'TOPgear' instead of 'TopGEAR'

thegypsy, I trust you cuffed the young sprog about the swede and banned him from making any PA announcements until he'd learned to speak proper Nigel-speak?

Anyway, back to the plot as Kenny Everett would say. The Channel 5 'Kings of the Sky' programme really is rather good - apart from the '4-point barrel roll' guff.

[Private jet]

Bastardisation of the English language is deplorable - even the BBC has dropped its RP standards due to the Islington metrognomes and the influence of meeja-city Northern English accents. Tha' knaws

Language is, was, and always will be an evolving means of communication. Not a set in stone museum piece. If you personally cannot, or will not, accept or adapt to it then maybe you are just above your station or alternatively your era is past and you should maybe just be quiet?

[BEagle]

Private jet, that's not really true. Down to the laziness of school teachers who lower their standards instead of insisting on correct use of English. There was a very interesting series on TV recently 'Back in Time for School', hosted by someone called Sara Cox. Her standard of English was pitiful, as was that of many of the alleged teachers.

As for the pupils, it seems that 'like' is like, used during each piece of like dialogue. Innit...like?

[Wander00]

Mind you, May always says "pleece" rather than "police"

[Blacksheep]

If it's true English accentuation that you seek, try reading something very old exactly as written. :rolleyes:

[Sleeve Wing]

>>> rather good - apart from the '4-point barrel roll' guff. <<<
Like you, BEagle, I cringed every time I heard this reference, as the subject manoeuvre was neither.
Just surprised that the editors (at least one from the service I assume) didn't pick it up. Otherwise this is turning out to be good, well-informed entertainment. :ok:

[BEagle]

Indeed, Sleeve Wing. But it is indeed an excellent programme.

Blacksheep, I'm not saying that everyone should speak like Jacob Rees-Mogg. But lazy 'estuary' English which has no real regional origin is to be deplored.

Another pet hate: 'garage' pronounced as 'garridge' - which it seems is now part of the Islington luvvies' lexicon. Even the Americans pronounce it guh'rarge.

Teachers, please take your pupils' phones off them and beat them into the correct use of English. Like...

[wub]

...and while you are at it, stop beginning every sentence with "So", particuly during the month of Feburee.

Really enjoying the series but.

[Parson]

So, to carry on the theme, 'breggsit' really irritates me.

Very much enjoying the series. When they said last week that they were selecting TWO new pilots, I guess they were assuming Starky would be back this year?

[MPN11]

"Outside of", anyone? Utterly endemic these days, even on the Beeb. :mad:

[Dan Winterland]

English is a developing borrowing language and change is inevitable, especially so with the rise of global media. If it were not, we would still be using Dr Johnsons dictionary - but not the one Baldrick burned. I'm a native English speaker, but having lived overseas for the last 16 years, my language had changed slightly with my environment. For example, I often use 'cheque' (not check!) instead of bill and my accent must have changed as I'm sometimes mistaken for being Australian (horror of horrors!). Change is inevitable - you can't resist it!

[Wander00]

And ban the word "upcoming"!

[jindabyne]

WIV !! (cockneys aside)

And Change is inevitable - you can't resist it! OK Dan, but I don't necessarily welcome all of it.

[Jimbossa]

>>> rather good - apart from the '4-point barrel roll' guff. <<<
Like you, BEagle, I cringed every time I heard this reference, as the subject manoeuvre was neither.
Just surprised that the editors (at least one from the service I assume) didn't pick it up. Otherwise this is turning out to be good, well-informed entertainment. :ok:

Please could you explain why the manoeuvre was not a "4-point barrel roll"? And if not, what would you call it and why?

[Arfur Dent]

A "barrel roll" is a rolling manoeuvre that is quite lazy and gentle and describes a path that you could imagine being around a barrel in the sky. A 4 point roll describes a roll maintaining the same height and direction but stopping (momentarily) at each 90 degrees of the roll ie after the first stop you are "knife edge" - the second stop you are inverted etc etc. There is no such thing as a "4-point barrel roll".

[Arfur Dent]

The Reds expect the highest level of flying ability from Team members. Anyone guilty of anything questionable is dropped immediately and replaced (or the Team carries on with 8). Some scrapes are accepted as risks (Synchro mid air with Montenegro and Ling) but stuff up a forced landing or turn back and you're gone. The Valley incident was such a very unfortunate accident but the surviving pilot will not return to the Reds IMHO. I hope he does actually.

[Megaton]

The Reds expect the highest level of flying ability from Team members. Anyone guilty of anything questionable is dropped immediately and replaced (or the Team carries on with 8). Some scrapes are accepted as risks (Synchro mid air with Montenegro and Ling) but stuff up a forced landing or turn back and you're gone. The Valley incident was such a very unfortunate accident but the surviving pilot will not return to the Reds IMHO. I hope he does actually.

Can you give one example of when this has happened?

[deltahotel]

Just been watching this on ‘catch up tv’ and really enjoying it. I got a bit wound up about the 4 pt barrel roll, but i’ve managed to let that go! Watched them a lot when at Scampton and Cranwell - plenty to admire. Big aviation highlight for me - back seat in Red 1 for a full display practice. Eclat indeed

[Jimbossa]

A "barrel roll" is a rolling manoeuvre that is quite lazy and gentle and describes a path that you could imagine being around a barrel in the sky. A 4 point roll describes a roll maintaining the same height and direction but stopping (momentarily) at each 90 degrees of the roll ie after the first stop you are "knife edge" - the second stop you are inverted etc etc. There is no such thing as a "4-point barrel roll".

I understand a "4 point roll" is an aileron roll with stops every 90 degrees - but the roll the pilot performed clearly wasn't an aileron roll because he used elevator. He clearly pitches up about 20 degrees before inputting aileron, and in fact he says that's what he does when he explains the move with the models. And to me it looked like a barrel roll - similar to the one they perform in 'Roll Backs', but with hesitations every 90 degrees. It's clearly not a full-deflection aileron-roll like they perform in the 'Revolution' manoeuvre. So doesn't that make it a "four point barrel roll"? Or is there another name for a barrel-roll incorporating hesitations every 90 degrees that they should have used?

[Arfur Dent]

I could Mega, but I won't. Happened on several occasions over the years......

[H Peacock]

Can you give one example of when this has happened?

Perhaps there may have been medical issues as well, however, there have been several team members who, having ejected, were no longer in the main team:

Curly Hurst
Spike Newbury
Dicky Edwards
Starky
Pete Collins
Dan Findlay

Even the great Lingy moved from R6 to R10

[Tashengurt]

I wouldn't have thought it would be appropriate for a pilot to return to the team with the BoI still ongoing?

[Tashengurt]

I don't remember so much hugging in the RAF?
Also, how did an LAC get on the reds?!

[jindabyne]

With others, and in the company of two ex-leaders, I watched the Reds at RIAT last year. Not good.. very large gaps, uneven formation keeping, and an upward burst?. Really disappointing; and the ex chaps kept shtum!

That said, an excellent TV production.

[skua]

Agreed, an excellent production. But it made me feel old, very old, when one of the 2019 season newbies mentioned (with no hint of irony, indeed with some pride) that he and his wife had a "vision board" in their kitchen, which in his case had had a picture of the Reds on it.

Can't imagine anyone of our generation having a "vision board" in their kitchen.

There again, perhaps Beags had one - with a piccie of Section Officer Harvey on it !

[Floppy Link]

You know you're old when the Flt Lt mate you got pissed with at happy hour is the AOC doing the PDA...

[ShyTorque]

You know you're old when the Flt Lt mate you got pissed with at happy hour is the AOC doing the PDA...


Nice to see that 'young' Bunny Warren did so well for himself.

Well, we were all younger twenty two years ago when we worked from the same building.

[Wander00]

I was, quite by chance in the hospitality tent at Kemble for the 40th anniversary of the Gnat and watched the then current team, surrounded by former leaders and team members. Lotts of "62 out there" and so on. Enlightening experience

[phil9560]

With others, and in the company of two ex-leaders, I watched the Reds at RIAT last year. Not good.. very large gaps, uneven formation keeping, and an upward burst?. Really disappointing; and the ex chaps kept shtum!

That said, an excellent TV production.

With a few thousand members of the general public, and in the company of my (difficult to impress) Wife , I also watched the Reds at RIAT last year..
We all thought they were magnificent.:)

[lsh]

I thought the whole series came across very well; particularly Red 1 who showed a really good level of commitment, understanding, grit & compassion.

Not quite sure how much good all the hugging between senior female to junior males achieves?
On hearing certain charges, objectivity might prove difficult.

Overall, a "hit" with me.

lsh
:E

[NutLoose]

I don't remember so much hugging in the RAF?
Also, how did an LAC get on the reds?!

He is probably an SAC tech :E because if you watch the current careers advert for the RAF featuring the Dead Sparrows, it follows some girl around and announces her name and job as RAF technician at the end... except her rank is SAC, so she is a mechanic, the Technician these days is denoted by the ring around the prop.

[Arfur Dent]

I thought the whole programme was excellent (éclat!!). Good insight as to how that iconic team operates. Particularly impressed with Mr Ling going from a desk to PDA as Red 3 in 6 weeks. Bloody amazing and well deserving of the Honourable Company of Air Pilot's award he won last October.
Brilliant stuff - Well done everyone and thoughts are with the Family of Cpl Jonathan Bayliss (RIP).
Good wishes for the future to all inc David Stark.

[jindabyne]

phil9560

Good - I'm pleased to hear that. Quite possibly a different day and display.

[brakedwell]

Just watched the latest which I recorded and somewhat disappointed to hear the leader pronounce schedule as skedule:rolleyes:

Got off a BA flight ( A320 ) where the F/O who was flying it stood by the door when we were offloading at LHR ( When did they start doing that? ) who likewise pronounced it as skedule. I probably embarrassed him by pointing out the errors of his ways poor lad. I keep hearing it on BBC too from people who should know better.
Train Station get's my hackles up. I use to use a Railway Station.

[ACW342]

My wife advised me that she was going shopping. I had to remind her that was she actually going storing as there no shops left, only stores. Right, off now to buy the Haddock and Chips from the Chip Store..... Er, which way out?....

[orca]

Although in fairness a train station makes more sense than a railway station.

Yes, agree about the hugging - both M-M and M-F - all a little weird for a couple of reasons.

[taxydual]

Slightly off track, but it is a Rumour Site. I followed a small convoy of civvy flatbed trucks carrying Red Arrows GSE to RAF Leeming yesterday. Hmmmm........................................

[Nige321]

Slightly off track, but it is a Rumour Site. I followed a small convoy of civvy flatbed trucks carrying Red Arrows GSE to RAF Leeming yesterday. Hmmmm........................................

Ssshhhh..... Don’t tell him Pike...

[Stitchbitch]

Slightly off track, but it is a Rumour Site. I followed a small convoy of civvy flatbed trucks carrying Red Arrows GSE to RAF Leeming yesterday. Hmmmm........................................

Rumour has it that BBMF Chipmunks have also been drafted in, something to do with a big push on pilot training at the mo...

[ShyTorque]

Train Station get's my hackles up. I use to use a Railway Station.

“Use” to use? That really gets my back up....

Where’s your grammar? Down the Bingo? ;)

[Hueymeister]

Watching from this side of the pond with a certain sense of nostalgia and a good deal pride in the team. Perty did a stunning job of keeping the team on course to complete a fantastic season, which, without the incident, was going to be without a doubt a tasking season. The whole team deserve a well-earned BZ and I hope that some awards are in the offing come the end of the year...

Bunny..how can you not have even a hint of grey???? Bastard ;O))

[Lyneham Lad]

A Look North preview of the forthcoming programme Red Arrows: Kings Of The Sky which starts on Channel 5 on Weds 9th Jan 2019 at 9pm, the series lasts for six weeks.

Should be very interesting and enjoyable.

[MPN11]

Same old, or something completely different to all the other RAFAT programmes? ;)

[BVRAAM]

Okay, cool, but the video you have provided is nearly a year old.

[Arfur Dent]

Same old, or something completely different to all the other RAFAT programmes? ;)

Yes Matey - "same old" excellence and overall skill levels unsurpassed anywhere in the world of formation aerobatics.
Don't watch it if you so choose but we could do without your stupid comments……...

[MPN11]

Yes Matey - "same old" excellence and overall skill levels unsurpassed anywhere in the world of formation aerobatics.
Don't watch it if you so choose but we could do without your stupid comments……...
Thank you for that response to what I considered a reasonable and genuine question. :confused:

[spekesoftly]

A new four-part documentary follows the Red Arrows on a 22,000 mile journey across Canada and the United States.

Called Red Arrows Take America, the first episode will be broadcast on Channel 5 on Wednesday 8th January 2020 at 9pm.

This new television series follows on from the success of Red Arrows Kings of the Sky, which was broadcast on Channel 5 in early 2019.

For further details see:-

https://www.raf.mod.uk/display-teams/red-arrows/news/tv-series-follows-red-arrows-across-north-america/

[MPN11]

Thank you, spekesoftly

[Chris Kebab]

Thank you for that response to what I considered a reasonable and genuine question. :confused:
Think Arfur might have just got in from Happy Hour at that point!

[Arfur Dent]

Just annoyed at the tone of MPNs "reasonable question".
"Same old, same old" implies "boring" to me and I would never accept that any programme featuring the RAFAT would be boring.
Didn't mean to be impolite but I do think the question was quite loaded.
Merry Xmas!

[MPN11]

Just annoyed at the tone of MPNs "reasonable question".
"Same old, same old" implies "boring" to me and I would never accept that any programme featuring the RAFAT would be boring.
Didn't mean to be impolite but I do think the question was quite loaded.
Merry Xmas!
Fair enough, Arfur ... moving on! :ok:

The Whoopee reactions from our cousins should be good, now I know the plot. And just getting RAFAT ‘over there’ is going to be an interesting mission. I do like the ‘inside story’ aspects ... I’ve seen the displays often enough, if you will forgive me. Impressive undoubtedly, and the annual tweaks are often good. But as the years go by ... ;)

[Bill Macgillivray]

Wonder if the "cousins" reactions wiere the same as their first visit in 1972 (Gnats)? It was unreal!!!

Bill

[MPN11]

Tonight’s episode on Channel 5 has been pulled in lieu of an interview with Markle’s father. :ugh: :mad:

I shall revert ro Kindle, and the Franco-Prussian War by Helmut von Moltke. ;)

[Il Duce]

Tonight’s episode on Channel 5 has been pulled in lieu of an interview with Markle’s father. :ugh: :mad:

I shall revert ro Kindle, and the Franco-Prussian War by Helmut von Moltke. ;)
Wonder how the viewing figures will compare when the third episode is eventually aired.......

[WB627]

Tonight’s episode on Channel 5 has been pulled in lieu of an interview with Markle’s father. :ugh: :mad:

Why do they give him airtime? Is it any wonder that Harry & Megan want to leave the country?

[sycamore]

$$$$$$$$$$........

[CAEBr]

Tonight’s episode on Channel 5 has been pulled in lieu of an interview with Markle’s father. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif

If you want to catch the third episode, be aware that next weeks slot is still scheduled to show episode 4. The displaced episode 3 - which wasn't picked up by the series link function on my Sky box, is currently scheduled to be shown on Tuesday 28th at 3:10 am presumably to make it more realistic in USA time. :*

[Nige321]

If you want to catch the third episode, be aware that next weeks slot is still scheduled to show episode 4. The displaced episode 3 - which wasn't picked up by the series link function on my Sky box, is currently scheduled to be shown on Tuesday 28th at 3:10 am presumably to make it more realistic in USA time. :*
Not on my Virgin box it doesn't, it shows Ep3 next week...

And Channel 5's own TV guide shows Ep3 next Wednesday too...

[MPN11]

My Sky TV guide says both E3 and E4, on Wednesday. 😲
I’m guessing E3 will happen!

[falcon900]

At the risk of being accused of heresy, the best flying so far was by the Blue Angels.....

[RAFEngO74to09]

For those living outside the UK these days, all 4 episodes of "Red Arrows Take America" now on You Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6VUCMDrvm0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5ijPuL79ao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib8zak_-ow8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z5I5PgabUQ

[MPN11]

Thanks for the YT links!

Throughly enjoyed the series, which showed some of the complications and complexities of running such an exercise [operation?].