Why...?

[Trafalgar]

Watching this from afar, and now with no skin in the game, I am forced to offer an opinion. I can only state clearly and emphatically: I am shocked and saddened at what has become of the AOA. It is bad enough that we have had to fight the adversary of our management for the past 25 years (!), but now it seems we have to fight our own union leadership as well. A few questions:

1) Why has the AOA "recommended" this offer? Surely, as it did not meet the minimum expectations clearly laid out by the membership, the most that should have happened was it being presented to the members without a "for or against" position. Arguably, it should have been presented with a "not recommended" label.
2) Why are certain members of the GC/NC trying to justify the unjustifiable on the AOA forums? More to the point, why is a particular NC member distorting the truth in certain matters to try and justify his position? It is unseemly, gives the appearance of self-serving motivation and leads one to conclude that there is something very wrong at the heart of the union leadership. I am suspicious of the motivations of the NC/GC at this point. The logic fails by any analysis.
3) Why the rush to vote? Surely it would be best for the union and members to wait for the annual results and make a more accurate determination as to the company's tedious claims of financial "distress".
4) Why the haste to agree a contract that effectively takes away the unions greatest and most effective tool, the TB? Surely that should only be done when all the facts are in, and more importantly, the company has adequately addressed ALL the open issues. The TB is working, slowly but surely to grind down CX's ability to function. If it's gone, so is any leverage you have to fight for proper conditions and pay.

Overall, I am very suspicious at the process, the lack of transparency and most importantly, the seeming inexplicable "recommendation" for what is obviously a completely inadequate and damaging sham of a contract. The AOA leadership has a lot of explaining to do. So far, they are failing in that test. As for the membership, look at the evidence of the operation to appreciate that CC/TB is slowly but surely bringing the company to the point where they will have no choice but to offer proper terms. This is their last great bluff, and only hope you are foolish enough to capitulate and throw in the towel. Don't let them destroy the rightful value of your career. If this gets voted in, the career of "Pilot" at CX will have effectively ended forever.

[petrichor]

Traf,
Do everyone a favour and let’s keep this discussion where it belongs...on the AOA forums. If you are a member then you’ll find the same questions there! If you’re not a member then you don’t deserve to hear anything but the company spiel.

[Amber Vibes]

@petrichor - That is exactly what the company wants so they can control the spin on this bag of $hit. They are already trying to make the public believe they gave concessions via their mouthpiece, the SCMP.

@Trafalgar - Nice to see you back here. Agreed, something definitely stinks in Hong Kong and it ain't Fragrant Harbour....

[RAT Management]

Trafalgar +2401 as far as I am concerned.

I am blown away by those justifying yes. Clause 7 is so one sided and where is the good faith in that!

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

[Air Profit]

Wow, Petricor. Which AOA office are you sitting in writing that response? No surprise that the GC/NC don't want someone like Traf commenting. And as for suggesting he isn't "welcome" if he is no longer a member??? Seriously? Rather listen to him than the drivel from certain members of the AOA exec on the forums.

[mngmt mole]

As per Trafs Q1: Why did the GC “recommend” this joke of a proposal. Perhaps RL could actually provide a cognizant answer to that question in the forums, instead of sounding llike someone who has been caught with his hand in the biscuit jar. As for Traf not being entitled to comment.....who the hell are you Petrichor. Come back when you’ve outgrown small boy pants.

[kahaha]

Meanwhile, over at the DPA, the new president has already indicated that the upcoming salary negotiations will revolve around accepting a 0% deal until 2021, in exchange for better cohesion between members and the company. A deal to ask the company to increas G days to a min of 10/ month and to at least commit to improving the medical cover.
Pretty pathetic that a junior C scaler is incharge.
we know where that will get us all, sweet fanny adams.

[Numero Crunchero]

Hey Traf
really missed your posts - your use of words exceeds my ability with numbers by an order of magnitude;-)

1) I agree - should have been neutral recommendation IMHO
2) If someone says something that is bull**** - I call bull****. Like saying "we can't do IA for 10 years" - not true. But on forums almost everyone that posts is a vociferous NO - so of course most of arguments are against the NO voters using flawed or incorrect 'facts' to justify their position. It is quite ok to have all the facts and still vote NO. Just don't use BS to justify it.
3) this deal was supposed to be voted on around 5-6 months ago. No rush. But if the membership want longer, just vote it down and keep CC/TB.
4) I honestly don't know the best path forward. Is it the devil you know(sign and get agreements) or don't sign and see what happens. I am just very grateful that decision will be made by 2400 of my peers.

Anyway - keep posting please - I have always enjoyed reading them.

[Tea time]

Traf welcome back , really glad to see your sane and sensible arguments being put forward again . It’s great to see that you haven’t forgotten everyone still trying to make a stand . As for Petrichor’s comment, that after decades in the company you are not entitled to comment . I simply cannot fathom that logic at all , but I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion. Obviously after leaving the company Traf is no longer an AOA member but his advice is a great deal more sage than that coming from the AOA GC
I have to ask what exactly are we voting for ?
1) A payrise that has kept pace with inflation over the last 4 years
2) Better rostering
3) Better COS
4) Improved medical
5) A contract that cannot be changed from time to time
6) Fleet transfer in line with seniority
7) Improved housing
8) Better overtime payments

If you answered NO ! to the above points I think that you pretty much have your answer

[Roy De Kantzow]

Traf, a most succinct and accurate summary of current events.

@petrichor - what utter nonsense! This should be debated as openly as possible.

[Slasher1]

Traf--I appreciate seeing ya back and hope things are going well for ya. And thank you for the sage comments. Thanks for still giving a damn about your friends who may still be here. Although it's probably a strong blessing to view the place from outside.

One thing that's useful (even though this forum is public) is that what happens in HKG has the potential to affect others (who are or might be on a base--even though I say that a bit tongue in cheek) -- either there or if considering returning to HKG. There seems to be an information/action vacuum and it's worthwhile to hear insights.

One of the cardinal sins of negotiations (again using the word 'negotiations' a bit tongue in cheek) is to rush into something--especially if there's fine print or conditions yet to be decided. I can't fathom how anyone could approve a TA which relinquishes future leverage under nonbinding promises to address other issues still in flux. Who does stuff like this ? I can understand coming to agreement with terms of a specific letter of agreement or understanding -- but that agreement would affect ONLY that particular LOU/LOA and not wheedle its way into OTHER issues (or demand conditions outside of the specific LOU until the entire package was set in stone).

I remain baffled by the entire scene.

[cxorcist]

No self respecting pilots in the first world would tolerate a TA like this, and neither should we. However, HK is nowhere close to first world, and far too many of us are not self respecting. Heck, some of us aren’t even pilots at all. Sad state of affairs at CX! From first to worst in two decades. I guess none should be surprised after the 49ers. The hand writing was on the wall, and we all ignored it. Now it’s time to pay the piper. I grow more ashamed of the CX uniform with each passing day. Management has been awful for a good while, yet I’m even ashamed of most of my “pilot” colleagues at this point. What a joke we are!

[mngmt mole]

I think the last bit is a bit harsh CX..., but I understand your point. I would say however that those comments perfectly describe those that are on their TC courses as we speak. Disgusting cretins, every one. And they are on a list....

[Frogman1484]

No self respecting pilots in the first world would tolerate a TA like this, and neither should we. However, HK is nowhere close to first world, and far too many of us are not self respecting. Heck, some of us aren’t even pilots at all. Sad state of affairs at CX! From first to worst in two decades. I guess none should be surprised after the 49ers. The hand writing was on the wall, and we all ignored it. Now it’s time to pay the piper. I grow more ashamed of the CX uniform with each passing day. Management has been awful for a good while, yet I’m even ashamed of most of my “pilot” colleagues at this point. What a joke we are!

Don't fool yourself.
There are 7,200,000 reasons why the ARAPA guys will sign yes. That is the amound of $$$ they will pay off on their property over the next 10 years. Do training and that figure jumpst to almost $9,000,000. A lot of the local pilots, will also sign yes, as they are still living at home and an extra $2000-4000 is money in their pockets. As fo the rest of the HKPA guys, they will sign yes as it means quicker upgrades and a possibility to leave even sooner with a big fat A350 or B777 on their licence.

The Umbrella clause is a non event as it is 10 years on ARAPA, 4 years on HKPA and 18 months on the rest. Why would you start industrial action on ARAPA during the next 10 years? Vote no get nothing, vote yes get what is on the table...you do not like it then start action within 18 months and they take it all back and we are exacly where we are now!

Also remember that the usual 10 suspects that are bashing about how crap it is on Pprune, are the same 10 guys that are bashing how crap the dewal is on the HKAOA forum. The rest of the guys are the silent majority.

[kenfoggo]

Like Traf I am amazed that this was sent to the Membership with a positive recommendation. The G.C. think that your best efforts are worth a 1 percent pay rise. Numero Crunchero, that is not “aneamic” , that is derisory!

[Apple Tree Yard]

(a copy and paste from the forums)

NO - because a re-hash of RP’s from 11-years ago, with increased restrictions upon the crew and less control by the crew is not a step forward.

NO - because no employer should be allowed to tie the hands of the professional representation of the workforce.

NO - because vague promises to consider real workplace issues is not a commitment to solving those issues.

NO - because CPA has failed to demonstrate any real intention to cease its industrial misbehaviour of the past 25 years (1994).

NO - because the egos that lie at the heart of the present situation have not been changed and will not be reigned-in.

NO - (feel free to add to this list)

[cxorcist]

Froggy,

I’m not fooling myself. I already wrote that it WILL pass, which is even more reason to be embarrassed. I’m truly ashamed of this pilot group and in my own judgement for joining it all those years ago, and then not leaving when I could have. No one to blame but myself. Now trapped financially...:ugh:

[Air Profit]

Dear GC members. Was wondering who you work for? It seems you are going on the forums and basically making the company's case for them. As an example, IM trying to advocate for the company's "poor finances". That isn't your job, and furthermore, we all can see the positive financial aspects now coming to the fore for the company. I don't expect nor want the GC acting as agents for the company, and that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Stop. Better yet, resign. Not fit for purpose.

[Dilbert68]

You all need to wake up and see the AOA for what it is, a puppet that has its strings pulled by the company.
There is no negotiation, DS and the rest of his pathetic minions get given a deal by the company and then endorse it. Why in the world would they endorse this deal when it does not meet ANY of the objectives the membership was seeking when we first implemented the TB all those years ago?
If our actions were not causing pain to the company then they would not be talking at all. Accepting this sh!tty deal gives them the green light to keep chipping away at your conditions as they have for the past 25 years.
To the SO's thinking that an end to the training ban will lead to a quicker upgrade, we no longer have a requirement for FO's in any meaningful numbers. The painful truth for you is that all but our longest flights are going to be crewed with two SO's, don't be duped by the managers telling you an end to the TB will lead to an upgrade. Why would it?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Why do you guys constantly try to turn this debate into a question of morality?

This is an industrial conflict. It is business, nothing else.It is simply a conflict of interests, we fight for our cause, they fight for theirs.

Don't be so naive and think you are on the good side and you are fighting the baddies. This is absurd. There is hence no place for words like shame or pride in this discussion.

I don't think we have the unity nor the leverage to win. Regardless of the costs, the company will not give in. This is my opinion and always has been since we rejected the last offer. I base my voting behaviour purely on economic game theory. My objective is to get the most out of my contract, same as you guys. By accepting or "giving up" as you probably would call it, I expect to get more than by the strategy you suggest. Always remember: if you misjudge the unity and the will power of our pilot body to fight this through, you misjudged the situation. You did not win any moral high ground, you are not a hero, you are not a better person, you simply lost.

You don't have to share my point of view, but how can you possibly accuse me or like-minded of being cowardish or frightened ? Don' t you see how misplaced, how childish that is?

[Avinthenews]

STW,

What's your opinion regarding lifestyle control?

Should we be able to control it? And I mean properly like other carriers, I don't mean not working I mean doing the 84/900 they want but doing with some control, each of us being able to swap, drop, pickup, and several other mechanisms to build a roster that allows birthdays, graduations, family events etc and even commuting. I've seen bidlines with other carriers that are fantastic, even the person on the lowest seniority number with no choice can immediately go to open time and construct a roster with better lifestyle control than us.

Are you aware of what other airlines crews can do to control their life? CX seen to think money is the answer, people only want more money so they can leave earlier or waste the money trying to make up for lack of lifestyle, because there is no lifestyle control, perhaps if you're on the 777 and living with W's and overtime life seems great but the thing is, it's still crap compared to first world rostering.

CXs obsession with control is what the problem is.

Have these negotiations shown CX to be giving any lifestyle control? Seems they have even more mechanisms to control us.

Taking the deal and accepting a continuation of no lifestyle control isn't acceptable.

[Slasher1]

Why do you guys constantly try to turn this debate into a question of morality?

This is an industrial conflict. It is business, nothing else.It is simply a conflict of interests, we fight for our cause, they fight for theirs.

Don't be so naive and think you are on the good side and you are fighting the baddies. This is absurd. There is hence no place for words like shame or pride in this discussion.

I don't think we have the unity nor the leverage to win. Regardless of the costs, the company will not give in. This is my opinion and always has been since we rejected the last offer. I base my voting behaviour purely on economic game theory. My objective is to get the most out of my contract, same as you guys. By accepting or "giving up" as you probably would call it, I expect to get more than by the strategy you suggest. Always remember: if you misjudge the unity and the will power of our pilot body to fight this through, you misjudged the situation. You did not win any moral high ground, you are not a hero, you are not a better person, you simply lost.

You don't have to share my point of view, but how can you possibly accuse me or like-minded of being cowardish or frightened ? Don' t you see how misplaced, how childish that is?



It's quite obvious the strategy for decades has been to play factions of the workforce off against other factions. Enough to get 51% of the vote. Overall, the company has been relatively successful in doing this amongst a group that doesn't see--or doesn't want to see--it happening. The result of this has been continually declining conditions--as different groups 'get theirs' and then later the 'screwed' sector effectively teams up with another 'screwed' sector to kinda hold on to what they got (minus a little bit) to the detriment of the 'got theirs' groups for the next round where the previous 'got theirs' group becomes the 'newly screwed' group with ANOTHER 51% vote. And so on. The union has (or maybe had) the opportunity to stop this.

This ALSO results in a toxic workplace--things aren't fun anymore.

Part of the due diligence of a GC is to recognize this, and not forward such a divisive TA. If they err, then (hopefully) the membership would see it. But it apparently hasn't and may never -- instead individual selfishness drives everything in a downward spiral. Which is where things are now. The union has a chance to either hold or escalate IA in order to stop it. If it doesn't, then this is your life.

[unitedabx]

Welcome back Traf. You are, as always, "spot on". The committee should not have made any recommendations and simply stated "this is the best deal we can negotiate at this time" and "we put it to the membership". By recommending it's acceptance they should also "resign if it is defeated".

[Sam Ting Wong]

I totally agree with avinthenews, it would be great to have the rostering tool you mention. I also agree with you that the offer is not good. The difference between your and my position is not the target itself, it is the evaluation of our leverage, the assumed willingness of the company to give in and, crucially, the assessment of the risk involved. That's it.

Additionally we differ on the evaluation of the status quo. In my opinion we tend to cherry pick when it comes to conditions at other employers. I don't see Cathay as that bad in an over-all comparison. There might be extreme outlyers in terms of money, there might be better rostering systems, fleet transfer possibilities etc, but if you guys would look downwards as well you would notice a grueling abyss. The reality in most cases today is very low pay, huge taxes, low-cost ops, no housing, slave-like conditions if you are a contractor etc. The truth is that the big bucks are out of reach now in most cases. With a green card and 25 years of seniority maybe, but then I would argue that every captain in Cathay with the same seniority makes at least as much, probably more. Universal tax is a problem for Americans, but this should have been a consideration before becoming an expat, hardly the responsibility of the company. I would argue that in most cases people resign from Cathay because they or their partner doesn't like Hong Kong or because airlines in their home country started to recruit again. Again, hardly the fault of the company. If you are on a base and stuck, I would argue that this was always the deal, everyone who joined this company knew commands are in HK and basings a big maybe. If you lost your base just the same , this was and is a risk every individual has to or should have considered. The new conditions from 2019 onwards, as well as HKPA, are what they are. Nobody was or is forced to accept them.

The industry at a whole is in a constant downward trend and there is no escape.

I disagree with Slasher that those who are willing to accept a deal are selfish, nor would I criticise anyone for acting in self-interest. It's just rational behaviour. We all are acting the way we expect to gain the most, but simply have either a different base line, different expectations or different risk scenarios. Voting no does not make you a better person.

I totally respect your positions, maybe it will work in the end, who knows. I just think it is not worth the risk. All I am asking for is to respect other viewpoints as well and please let's keep the discussion civilized and rational.

[Avinthenews]

I would rather we stayed in CC for life, I fear should this pass and the new CMP patterns causing such disruption, selfish personal deals will be made with crew CONTROL like never before, so expect to have rosters that are completely dysfunctional meaning our so called request system (pot luck more like it) will be even worse than before.

CX loves that crew can screw over other crew without penalty.

[Slasher1]

I
The industry at a whole is in a constant downward trend and there is no escape.

I disagree with Slasher that those who are willing to accept a deal are selfish, nor would I criticise anyone for acting in self-interest. It's just rational behaviour. We all are acting the way we expect to gain the most, but simply have either a different base line, different expectations or different risk scenarios. Voting no does not make you a better person.

I totally respect your positions, maybe it will work in the end, who knows. I just think it is not worth the risk. All I am asking for is to respect other viewpoints as well and please let's keep the discussion civilized and rational.











What part of "we all screw each other and then wonder a decade later how we got to the bottom" is rational ? Not in my world. And in my opinion it's the perfect definition OF selfish--one acts in a self centered matter which knowingly undermines and damages the collective organization and ultimately results in the denigration of the individuals' situation as well (kinda poetic justice in a way). Now, if your plan is collect and bail I guess one can rationalize such actions to oneself, but at some point in your life I think you're going to look back on the decision as one of your darker hours (kinda like someone who crosses a picket line). Now, it IS most definitely a failure of the HKAOA to act as a collective body (and maybe have the wherewithal to strike if necessary--although from the TA the CC/TB actually apparently IS really causing distress as is the mass exodus. Right off the starting block as a precondition; another rule of negotiation violated in that you do not set conditionals outside of a complete TA. Very high priority for the company apparently). So if the fact of the matter is that if there cannot be a union formed which CAN act effectively as a group (and NOT allow factions to be played off against each other as has been done) I guess that makes ones' selfish decision more rationalizable (at least to oneself) -- but it still leaves destruction in its wake and a person has to live with this.

I do not share your hobbesian view of the industry at present; perhaps that's because I (and several colleagues) are bombarded with entities looking for pilots. The raw numbers might not be as high (at least for the first couple of years compared with a gheezer on one of our older contracts), but the COL is way lower and the conditions better (and even dare I say it -- fun ?). If you set the standard at the bottom and "at least I'm not getting shot at as much here on the street" then, yes -- perhaps there are some who would prefer living in a cracker box taking on huge debt and barely scraping by with family life falling apart to getting knifed on the street. Maybe THAT'LL sell POS18 -- "Hey--we're better than the slums of Venezuela." But I don't think even this is working out so well for them (hence the decision to upgrade SOs and dangle the false carrot of basings for those dumb or desperate enough to actually want to believe in it). It IS disheartening that rather than striving for greatness we are comparing things to the absolute bottom of the barrel. I don't think this has ever worked out very well.

I can think of no more toxic environment than when peers are divided amongst each other.

In any case good luck. Old Ben had it right when he said hang together or hang separately. What does baffle me is how a union would allow something to be advanced which DOES divide the membership; cutting its throat as well as its members. I would hope those advancing the agenda do realize they have a responsibility toward the membership and toward stopping the decline (which is opposite most of the developed world) -- and not just toward different factions within the membership. None of us here are smart enough to play the manipulation game (nor is this a good game to play).

[RAT Management]

The Ultimate prize is TB gone.

The condition disguised as a carrot in terms of hkpa is 3 years of crumbs before the bonus at year 4. This buys time.

For the ARA guys it's 5 more years of housing before you default to 24k. ( Yeah, I know maybe 5 people can get the full 10years). This buys time.

But my point is this :
What will happen in this 3-4 year period.... ALOT OF TRAINING. Who will get trained..... POS18 guys. Once the trainers are in, there will never be a chance to leverage a TB again. Afterall, who of the trainers quit training during the TB to force the issues?

These POS 18 guys are the future! These guys will be your replacements and you will never get another deal again... EVER!

Every time a b scale or c scale leaves it's a cost saving. That's the prize. TB gone and train the guys that will give the productivity gains and low pay.

That my friends is the long game. Where else will $1 billion in savings come from the pilots.... Afterall that's the Target.

Your pay and conditions will be frozen and you will just wither on the vine.... That is what will happen if you buy into this deal.

ARA is the new A scale.
Hkpa is the new b scale
Pos 18 is the new c scale and not represented by the union....

Where will the hkaoa be in 3-4 years time? A memory of something that seemed like a good idea at the time.

Think!

[Kitsune]

The HKAOA has been a busted flush since the failure to mandate immediate strike action for the unconscionable sacking of 49 pilots for ‘no particular reason’. Some of the keyboard warriors and ‘I’m secretly going sick’ snowflakes currently posting were part of that decision to not back their colleagues in their hour of need.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap... suck it up.

[Roy De Kantzow]

The HKAOA has been a busted flush since the failure to mandate immediate strike action for the unconscionable sacking of 49 pilots for ‘no particular reason’. Some of the keyboard warriors and ‘I’m secretly going sick’ snowflakes currently posting were part of that decision to not back their colleagues in their hour of need.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap... suck it up.

THAT is true, the precedent was set then.

[mngmt mole]

Reading the forums the past few days. RL really needs to take a sabbatical. Dont throw away your hard earned rep pal. And you seem intent on doing so. Sad.

[Babbalito]

The HKAOA has been a busted flush since the failure to mandate immediate strike action for the unconscionable sacking of 49 pilots for ‘no particular reason’. Some of the keyboard warriors and ‘I’m secretly going sick’ snowflakes currently posting were part of that decision to not back their colleagues in their hour of need.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap... suck it up.

And further...

[Babbalito]

The Ultimate prize is TB gone.

The condition disguised as a carrot in terms of hkpa is 3 years of crumbs before the bonus at year 4. This buys time.

For the ARA guys it's 5 more years of housing before you default to 24k. ( Yeah, I know maybe 5 people can get the full 10years). This buys time.

But my point is this :
What will happen in this 3-4 year period.... ALOT OF TRAINING. Who will get trained..... POS18 guys. Once the trainers are in, there will never be a chance to leverage a TB again. Afterall, who of the trainers quit training during the TB to force the issues?

These POS 18 guys are the future! These guys will be your replacements and you will never get another deal again... EVER!

Every time a b scale or c scale leaves it's a cost saving. That's the prize. TB gone and train the guys that will give the productivity gains and low pay.

That my friends is the long game. Where else will $1 billion in savings come from the pilots.... Afterall that's the Target.

Your pay and conditions will be frozen and you will just wither on the vine.... That is what will happen if you buy into this deal.

ARA is the new A scale.
Hkpa is the new b scale
Pos 18 is the new c scale and not represented by the union....

Where will the hkaoa be in 3-4 years time? A memory of something that seemed like a good idea at the time.

Think!

Quite right.

By allowing new, poorer contracts and passively acknowledging that the pilots won't strike across the group for ANY reason has resulted in today's mess.

[Air Profit]

I've been reading some of the responses from the GC members on the forums today. In a word...disgraceful. Condescending, defensive, evasive, deluded and smelling to high heaven of being bought out by the company. It is NOT your job to be defending the company's position. What on earth do you people think you are doing. Face the facts: you have miserably failed in your duty towards your members. You have sold out your fellow pilots, and you have bought into an indefensible position that might as well have been written by the company propaganda department. The replies today to the honest and valid comments from members is beyond a disgrace. Every one of you should resign. All you are doing is making certain that not only have we lost all trust in you, but in fact you are providing all the evidence needed to conclude that the ONLY vote possible is a strong NO vote. You need to resign, today. Utter disgrace.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Im honestly starting to believe that the company has offered the members of the GC a special deal if it gets voted in. It is jut so dodgy what has been happening the last week

[Roy De Kantzow]

There are a few GC members on the HKAOA forum who are sounding EXACTLY like CX management.

You can't blame people for thinking something untoward is happening. I certainly do.

[Porterboy]

Pos 18 is the new c scale and not represented by the union....

Actually? How is that possible? (I'm an outsider just curious) Do they have any representation at all?

EDIT: and does this thing you're all voting on have anything at all to do with anyone on COS18?

[GTC58]

Voting has nothing to do with COS18. It applies, in some form and variations, to all Conditions of Service before COS18. If you read COS18 it clearly states that agreements with the HKAOA will not become part of the contractual terms of your employment unless ..........

Basically it is up to CX to allow the HKAOA to negotiate for officers on COS18. COS18 consists mostly of policies which can be amended at the companies discretion from time to time.

[Progress Wanchai]

STW,

Good luck in raising the level of debate to a discussion that replaces emotion with pragmatism and facts.
Yes, we are poorly lead as a union but apart from the usual suspects on here and on the forums who do back up their rhetoric with action, the members aren’t exactly a united, cohesive body prepared to sacrifice self for the greater good. Even the strongest of leadership is wasted on selfish followers.

Air Profit,
The HKAOA entered CC/TB for the return of RP07. Nothing else. (HKPA was added later)
You ask does this offer meet the requirements of why we entered CC/TB? As RP07 was offered back, the answer is obviously yes (you’d have to ask the GC why they didn’t put this up to the membership to vote on)
CC/TB continued as it could be seen as a lever to address the obvious deficiencies of HKPA. Does this offer address that issue? Not even close.
Here’s the next question. What are the members prepared to do to adjust management’s mindset, and will that adjustment actually lead to more money, or a typical draconian management mitigation? The “what’s next” is a question for the voters and subsequently for the association to address as a whole.

Dilbert,
it annoys me no end when a Swire Manager on his 3 year cycle at CX refers to himself as “the company”. He’s not the company. We and the rest of the employees are. You’re association should never represent the company, but raising debate to see an item from the company’s viewpoint, if for no other reason than playing devils advocate, is not in itself necessarily bad.
Debating from management’s viewpoint is something else again that should never be tolerated. They are blind. They don’t have a logical view of anything.

[Porterboy]

Voting has nothing to do with COS18. It applies, in some form and variations, to all Conditions of Service before COS18. If you read COS18 it clearly states that agreements with the HKAOA will not become part of the contractual terms of your employment unless ..........

Basically it is up to CX to allow the HKAOA to negotiate for officers on COS18. COS18 consists mostly of policies which can be amended at the companies discretion from time to time.
How does that even happen? I’ve never heard of an updated contract that essentially nullifies union representation anywhere else. Well that’s the final straw for me. To the desert I go.. How does such an amazing career get wrecked like that.

[Rated De]

I am shocked and saddened at what has become of the AOA. It is bad enough that we have had to fight the adversary of our management for the past 25 years (!), but now it seems we have to fight our own union leadership as well.

There are only brief periods in history of the Western hemisphere where income distribution is flat. It may be statistical noise, but both correlate with the end of major conflict.
At all other times the powers in the economies have sought to leverage their position.

It is at times like these where the people begin to realise something is very wrong, that unions appear to reinforce the power asymmetry. The question is whether it was ever any different? Or is it as the economy declines and the spoils lessen the asymmetry is more obvious.
That the Western hemisphere needs a 'new deal' is axiomatic. Whilst in times passed there may have been a broader 'middle' with which to gradually chip away, there now is an extreme and the many failings of the 'system' become evident to all.

[unitedabx]

Do you mean:
A base ?
Part time ?
The Chairman going back into training ?
25 year housing ?


They can only be given "sweet deals " that cannot be traced. Bases are in strict seniority, so are type conversions. Very difficult to tweek those boys BUT training selection, frozen housing allowances, cheques in the mailbox are all very doable. How about a vote of no confidence in the GC ?

[JPJP]

Again, hardly the fault of the company ..... etc, etc, etc.

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