Vistajet Future

[Daddy Fantastic]

Whats going on with Vistajet hiring and do they still do that 17/13 schedule for pilots or has that changed now?
I heard they are getting quite desperate for crews as well....anybody with current info?

[dirk85]

The salary is attractive pretty much only for Austrians, due to a tax loophole, otherwise for the amount of work you have to do the money is pretty bad.

[Daddy Fantastic]

The salary is attractive pretty much only for Austrians, due to a tax loophole, otherwise for the amount of work you have to do the money is pretty bad.

Well if they still do that 17 days on and 13 off that wont help their cause. Lots of pilots are married with families and dont like being away 17 days in a row. Great if you are 23 with not a care in the world but pretty much terrible for everyone else!!

[SanHor]

13 days OFF. Is that really OFF?

or do they still schedule recurrent training on these days? LPC/OPC DGR CRM etcetc

[Daddy Fantastic]

13 days OFF. Is that really OFF?

or do they still schedule recurrent training on these days? LPC/OPC DGR CRM etcetc

Oh yes I forgot about that. Apparently they do so there is another slap in the face.

[Globally Challenged]

I think all your leave has to be taken in those off days in addition to all training.

[Private jet]

Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...

[Daddy Fantastic]

Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...

From what I have heard if Vistajet dont change they wont survive. Im told the 17/13 is too much and the crew are fed up.

I am not 100% sure on this but apparently positioning flights to and from the aircraft back home are all economy class and the hotels are not that great either.

I would be very interested to see how they go over the next 12 months.

[what next]

Hello!

Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...

Looking ahead with a fair amount of skepticism and always having a plan B on hand is not the worst of strategies.And regarding the original question: A 17/13 roster combined with less-than-stellar pay is certainly not very appealing in times like these where airline jobs can be found around every corner. I would like to ask some former colleagues who went to that company for more details but they have already left...

[Daddy Fantastic]

Hello!



Looking ahead with a fair amount of skepticism and always having a plan B on hand is not the worst of strategies.And regarding the original question: A 17/13 roster combined with less-than-stellar pay is certainly not very appealing in times like these where airline jobs can be found around every corner. I would like to ask some former colleagues who went to that company for more details but they have already left...

Bar the economy tanking it, I would be very surprised if these guys can operate the way they are at present in 12 months time. Lots will go to airlines for a lot more money and far better schedules, as I said most have families and wont do 17 on 13 off for rubbish pay.

[what next]

Bar the economy tanking it, I would be very surprised if these guys can operate the way they are at present in 12 months time. Lots will go to airlines for a lot more money and far better schedules, as I said most have families and wont do 17 on 13 off for rubbish pay.

Yes. But don't forget that we have the current situation since only about a year. Before that, the few airline jobs to be found were mostly pay-to-fly and with minimum-rest rosters which are no more family friendly than 17/13. At least Vistajet always hired people during those bad years and paid them something instead of taking money. Will be interesting to see what they (and many other bizjet operations) will come up with to keep their crews from running away.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Yes. But don't forget that we have the current situation since only about a year. Before that, the few airline jobs to be found were mostly pay-to-fly and with minimum-rest rosters which are no more family friendly than 17/13. At least Vistajet always hired people during those bad years and paid them something instead of taking money. Will be interesting to see what they (and many other bizjet operations) will come up with to keep their crews from running away.

I agree with what you said but ultimately just like a business a pilot will always do what is in their own best interest with regards to jobs and money. Something will have to give and I suspect it will be Vistajet and not the flight crew who will be forced into a change.

[His dudeness]

Unfortunately I think the Austrians and to a much greater extent the Deutschers are in a state of denial about the future, and I don't just mean in aviation...


Care to explain what you mean ?

[His dudeness]

I agree with what you said but ultimately just like a business a pilot will always do what is in their own best interest with regards to jobs and money. Something will have to give and I suspect it will be Vistajet and not the flight crew who will be forced into a change.

You think ? I think there are more than enough people on the market who will except ANYTHING just to fly a bigger airplane etcetc. The small operators are more and more a thing of the past and thus available jobs who suit individuals are getting less. Fit into the Vista or NetJets scheme - as an example - or don´t fly executive. Period.

[Daddy Fantastic]

You think ? I think there are more than enough people on the market who will except ANYTHING just to fly a bigger airplane etcetc. The small operators are more and more a thing of the past and thus available jobs who suit individuals are getting less. Fit into the Vista or NetJets scheme - as an example - or don´t fly executive. Period.

Well we will see over the next 12 months or so. As I said barring the economy tanking it pilots now have choices and if its bigger planes to fly like you said then airlines are the way to go.

Corporate flying is usually a lifestyle thing for a lot of flight crew. If you want stability then airlines are far better for you.

[His dudeness]

If you want stability then airlines are far better for you.

Whilst that is true for a lot of jobs, it ain´t for the Netjetters and a quite a few other people to. NetJets dudes do have very stable rosters, I´m told...

[His dudeness]

if its bigger planes to fly like you said then airlines are the way to go...

Think a CJ or Mustang dude earning next to nothing. Opportunity to fly, say, an airplane with an APU and standup cabin ? Anytime, I would guess.

[EatMyShorts!]

Yes, rosters at Netjets are rock-solid. If you do not agree to extend or show a day early (for extra-$$$) then you just don't that and they will look for someone else on the fleet. In this sense we are the "airline amongst business jet operators". I personally would not go for another business jet operator outside Netjets, I'd swallow the bitter pill of going back to the airlines, if I had to leave. Exception: find a great private owner who genuinely takes care of his crew: then you get good money and you make your own roster, you pick your own hotels etc.. There are not too many around and you mainly get those jobs through connections.

At the moment I would NOT change company, the next economic downturn is around the corner and quite a few operators/airliners will not survive it.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Yes, rosters at Netjets are rock-solid. If you do not agree to extend or show a day early (for extra-$$$) then you just don't that and they will look for someone else on the fleet. In this sense we are the "airline amongst business jet operators". I personally would not go for another business jet operator outside Netjets, I'd swallow the bitter pill of going back to the airlines, if I had to leave. Exception: find a great private owner who genuinely takes care of his crew: then you get good money and you make your own roster, you pick your own hotels etc.. There are not too many around and you mainly get those jobs through connections.

At the moment I would NOT change company, the next economic downturn is around the corner and quite a few operators/airliners will not survive it.

On the flip side of that coin look what NJ did to their flight crews after 2008 crash, it was not pretty and hiring stagnated for years. In saying that I would rather be at NJ than Vistajet and if I could get a corporate job (PIC or very quick upgrade) with good pay and a 5 on 5 off schedule for example I would leave my airline job in a heartbeat.

I dont really care about equipment and the latest glass cockpit etc but if I did go corporate I would want something no smaller than a Challenger 300/604/605 etc. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.

Vistajet I think will either have to make some radical changes or find themselves in a lot of trouble.

[Globally Challenged]

On the flip side of that coin look what NJ did to their flight crews after 2008 crash, it was not pretty and hiring stagnated for years. In saying that I would rather be at NJ than Vistajet and if I could get a corporate job (PIC or very quick upgrade) with good pay and a 5 on 5 off schedule for example I would leave my airline job in a heartbeat.

I dont really care about equipment and the latest glass cockpit etc but if I did go corporate I would want something no smaller than a Challenger 300/604/605 (tel:300/604/605) etc. Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.

Vistajet I think will either have to make some radical changes or find themselves in a lot of trouble.
I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.

[His dudeness]

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.

Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.

Dont want a mickey mouse phenom 100 after flying on jets all above 40 up to 93 tons.

What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - can´t say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (don´t fancy tea without biscuits)

[Daddy Fantastic]

Exactly. Had friends in NJE at the time and even I - as a "fraggle hater" was impressed... I have seen many friends and colleagues (and myself) terminated over smaller things than a economic crisis.



What exactly from a PILOTS point of view is the attraction of flying an airliner that big ? (no pun intended, btw...) I had a few hours in a B737 sim for CCC (as it was called then...gettin old) - can´t say I was exactly thrilled by flying the numbers... the biggest I ever flew was a CL30 (17tons) and now I fly a C680 (14tons) these are real "pilots airplanes" and I often get to fly real visual approaches etcetc. Things like zooming out of places at 6000ft/min, flying VFR sometimes, going into difficult fields, going places others seldom do, empty legs etc. do appeal to me, as does not having a (closed) cockpit door. And not having a inflight monitoring system. (don´t fancy tea without biscuits)

I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.

[Daddy Fantastic]

I have no complaints in how I was treated by NJE during the downturn.

All the cost saving options were exactly that - optional.

Initially went on Job Share (4yrs program alternating with year on / year off while on 60% salary throughout). My rating was renewed just before year off and I found an 11 month contract on the same type so got 2 salaries and continued with all the NJE benefits and protection from any compulsory redundancy for the 4 years.

Then about 18 months in to the above, they dangled an attractive carrot for voluntary redundancy with 15 months full salary + 3 months for every year of service.

Show me a company who treated their pilots better during the hard times and I will be impressed.

Well if everything you say is true I stand corrected and will admit that is impressive.

[buzzc152]

It is all true. Whilst painful to go through, NJ’s treatment of staff in the late 2000’s was way beyond what anyone would expect. However, that was the old management.....it would not happen again now.

[dirk85]

Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year “off” while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.

[Arthur1815]

Yeah we all remember the NJE guys happily accepting way below market rate to freelance in their year “off” while getting paid 60% from NJE, and screwing over all the other guys that were actually trying to make a living out of freelancing, but who were not lucky enough to have another guaranteed income.
I would be banned if I said what I thought of them.
Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.

[CL300]

And the fact that they conveniently fired 153 captains overnight, with a wonderful choice to take : 3 months UK redundancy or a 13 months package; with no option to relocate... But I agree with what was said above, anytime I take my position back, even knowing the Damocles Sword, there is still nothing close ( as a package in the market, expect THE owner)

[His dudeness]

I just meant I want a plane with an APU and something I can actually stand up in.

Plus 1 then !

[His dudeness]

Dirk
I'm sure they were doing what they needed to provide for their loved ones, the same as you. Don't conveniently forget that their year on during the job share option was also paid at 60%, so when given an opportunity they were plugging the 40% shortfall for 2 years.
All the above detail is accurate, I've still got the bank statements to prove it.

I know people who did not fly in their years off, but setting this aside: Dirk, would you not taken the opportunity ? Life isn´t fair and in this respect NJE pilots are not worse than others (I think). I have been annoyed (and undercut) by lawyers, medical doctors, executives, even policemen - people who did not need to make their living in this very profession for many years. Such is life in a profession with NO solidarity at all and a hit-and-run mentality of a lot of people involved.
Wether one can look in the mirror is another question, one that one has to answer to himself.

[dirk85]

No, I wouldn’t have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.

[His dudeness]

No, I wouldn’t have done it, because I would struggle to look myself in the mirror knowing that I am undercutting someone, especially because they were doing that not to bring food on the table, but to retain a certain standard of life, since 60% of their salary was in many cases already better money than what a freelance was making in those bottom feeder operators to which those nje pilots were offering their services to.
With the difference that those poor bastards had no golden parachute and were often left holding their d***s in their hands.

Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?

[flydive1]

Are freelancers undercutting fixed contracts ?

No.
Or at least they shouldn't, but as we see in the above case, not everybody plays by the rules.

[flydive1]

And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?

Yes, of course Morals or ethics, you can call the subjective.

There are no written rules that you should not work well below market price and undercut your colleagues.

But please, go ahead, but then do not complain that our profession is going bad and T&C are going to hell.
You might be happy to work for peanuts and have to pay for everything out of your pocket, but many others are not.

[what next]

And what rules are those? Or do you mean subjective morals or ethics?

Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.

And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.

In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)

And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?

[Intrance]

I like how this thread about Vistajet descended into a pilot b*tch fight over Netjets or something... Professional pilots indeed.

[EatMyShorts!]

Ultimately quite a few pilots think that there's a fight between Vista and Netjets. There's competition, yes, but that's all about it.

[CL300]

It is a normal trend, when you compare operators in the "business aviation" world, there is two big players. The legacy one, and the outsider. The first one grew from a stolen concept and claim it was his, and second one from the unfortunate withdrawal of a contender and the tax scandal from Austria.
All the other operators are just in between trying to make up a company, based on local niches and customers.

The crews inside these entities ( the big ones) are just a commodity, we tend to think that we are doing the difference, but it cannot be more wrong than that. Our ego is satisfied from a Kiss Landing after 13 hours of duty and gusts at 30kt; but at the back, it is usually the 5 minutes delay from whoever upon arrival that will ruin their experience, along with the extra fuel charge or what else.
This industry cannot make money generally speaking, we are off-setting costs, the best we can.

So the answer of Vista is to make up some money by sending you on training in your days OFF; Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you home... It is the same goal, just set differently. At he end of the day; do not think twice, just take the one that gives you the best balance for yourself. The day they will not need you anymore, you will be dumped, with no afterthought.

[dboy]

According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��

you have to be insane to accept that.

[Daddy Fantastic]

According ppjn it is now 19 on 11 of.��

you have to be insane to accept that.

Is that Vistajet schedule you are talking about? Who in there right mind would accept that. You would have to be insane.

[EatMyShorts!]

Netjets is to stretch your weekly duty to 70 hours in order to get you homeWrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.

Just to put some facts straight.

[what next]

... and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)

Sanity is not yet checked during medicals otherwise nobody would ever have accepted a pay-to-fly scheme...

[His dudeness]

Theoretically there is even a legal rule. At least there used to be rule that a certain percentage (a majority!) of crews were required to be on fixed contracts, thereby limiting the number of freelance crews and preventing them to undercut the employees. I am pretty sure that rule still exists but I know that it is "interpreted" in different ways by companies and authorities in different countries.

And regarding that "mirror thing": How far do we want to go? A vast majority (me included) of business aviators that I have met along the way had a completely different professional life before their flying dream came true eventually. Are we supposed to step back every time when times get tough and go back to our previous professions so that those among us who are "only" pilots can continue to fly? Certainly not me and my mirror image has no problem with that either.

In our company two or three of those "60% NetJets pilots" were freelancing back then. They undecut no one and were paid exactly the same as the other freelancers. No regular freelancer flew less because of them. The only negative thing I heard about them (they flew on a different type than I did) had to do with their 45(or so)-minute-briefings that strained the patience of some colleagues to the absolute limit ;-)

And another "mirror-thing" that would bother me far more personally: Who are the people who can afford to charter a Global or Gulfstream - or whatever else companies like the one we talk about here operate - in the parts of the world (Africa!) where they do lots of their business? Would I want to fly for that kind of people? Could I still look in the mirror if I did?

Since I brought the mirror up: are you in the position to question first your ops and then probably the clients/pax if they are "morally" sound enough to be flown ? Show me a cab driver who does that.

Anyhew... I just wanted to stir the pot up a tad, our "profession" is mostly not a straight thing, a lot of people go different paths. I have been self employed as a freelancer and I`m employed full time. I had a part time contract and I started my vocational life as an electrician and self funded PPL/CPL/IFR/ATP/FI/TRI/TRE. As much as I wouldn´t like to be undercut, I have understanding for folks left with 60%. And the same freelancers that might have been undercut by these guys, have actively undercut a full time employee somewhere, cos thats why freelancers mostly are employed: they are cheaper.
This was always so and will never go away.

BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.

[what next]

BTW, I fly a lot to Africa and in Africa. I have no issue with that whatsoever.

I have flown to Africa twice (for a previous employer) and both times we had a cargo of arms and ammunition (as much as a Metroliner could carry). All legal with papers and everything, but I am 100% certain that real people got killed with those things that I carried. I will not go any further than that otherwise I really won't like my mirror image. Other than a cab driver I get a passenger list before each flight and often some extra information. So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists. Some of our passengers (DJs and other musicians) may have carried small quantities of illegal substances in their baggage, others cheated with the emissions of their Diesel cars, others again may not be as honest with their taxes as I am (because I am too small for the loopholes) and one (french soccer player) was accused of having intercourse with underage prostitutes. But they killed nobody and sentenced no one to life long slave labor. I can live with that.

[Boabity]

Sanity is not yet checked during medicals otherwise nobody would ever have accepted a pay-to-fly scheme...
Fairly sure they don’t check it at the Vista interview 😂

[CL300]

Wrong, or rather incomplete information. Netjets has to ask crew members if they are willing to exceed 60 hour and they cannot force anyone to accept. If you say no, no questions will be asked, your plan will change and go home within the 60 hours (there maybe some extreme circumstances like going AOG in Petropavlovsk where you can't go home from quickly). And if you accept to exceed the 60 hour limit, you'll get paid extra for it. Shorthaul crews can go up to 65 hours, longhaul the limit is set to 70 hours.

Just to put some facts straight.

So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours

[Globally Challenged]

So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours
Having worked in several AOCs since NJE - they are fairly unique in that they are happy (and expect) the ops manuals to be applied as written.

I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits.

How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example?

[CargoOne]

So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists.

You must be naive or just fooling yourself. You can always play around who is actually an oligarch vs big businessman or what is exactly corruption within politics but if you exclude all of them you can only do ferry flights then...

[dnx]

Vistajet will surely still be around in 12, 24, 48 or more months from now. Rest assured. It's a "sellers market" now so pilots, for the first time in decades, have a greater choice of where, how and for whom they want to work. For some the 'Vista-package' doesn't work so they decide to seek employment elsewhere. That is a good thing. Both for the individuals involved and for the company because if you are unhappy with your employment you don't give it a 100%. People disparage the VistaJet model here comparing it to the likes of e.g. NetJet. That is unfortunate because the very idea of these 2 companies are radically different which makes their approach towards the market, both renumeration package and clientele, almost incomparable.
NetJet idea is based of fractional ownership. This means that all costs will be payed for by the owners of the aircraft that NetJet manages. If NetJet management did their homework correct then they would never have to dip into their own kitty to supplement owners expenses. Only when things go disasterly wrong (like in the 2008 financial meltdown) do they have to make up for short-falls. And like others said before, they did so in a very humane/generous way. Kudos to them for that.
VistaJet on the other hand operates more like an airline in this respect meaning that they took/take all the risk upfront to buy and crew and maintain and operate 70+ aircraft worldwide and then try to recover this expenditure by chartering. Either 'on-demand' or by selling hours. This means that they have to be as lean as possible I think.
The 'Vista-package' is quite straightforward and management never minces words about what it entails. Still 350+ pilots have decided to take them up on it and do their utmost to make the Vistajet model work. I therefor find it distasteful that many here disparage their colleagues for doing exactly what they themselves are doing; working for a company with the T's&C's that they find acceptable.
And those who's perspective has changed and they no longer find the 'Vista-package' acceptable will seek employment elsewhere. VistaJet will no doubt find crew to replace them and everybody will be happy.

[EatMyShorts!]

So it is correct, it is a tool (used or not) in the toolbox. My operator cannot exceed the 60 hours.. Netjets Max duty is 70 hours...because the company has an official derogation. Wideroe in Norway has such a derogation as well, but pilots there have no choice. I think that NJE is fair by making it a voluntary and payable extra-duty. Of course it is a tool, but it is a tool of working together.

[His dudeness]

I have flown to Africa twice (for a previous employer) and both times we had a cargo of arms and ammunition (as much as a Metroliner could carry). All legal with papers and everything, but I am 100% certain that real people got killed with those things that I carried. I will not go any further than that otherwise I really won't like my mirror image. Other than a cab driver I get a passenger list before each flight and often some extra information. So far (with my current employer) there were no arms dealers, drug dealers, slave dealers, illegal big-game hunters, warlords, oligarchs or corrupt politicians on those lists. Some of our passengers (DJs and other musicians) may have carried small quantities of illegal substances in their baggage, others cheated with the emissions of their Diesel cars, others again may not be as honest with their taxes as I am (because I am too small for the loopholes) and one (french soccer player) was accused of having intercourse with underage prostitutes. But they killed nobody and sentenced no one to life long slave labor. I can live with that.

Wellwellwell....I once flew (for the operator you work) one of Ghaddafis sons. I flew several times to a place in eastern europe with a dude (an oligarch) that I wouldn´t have bought a used bicycle from - for your operator with the airplane of your employer. Can´t help it, I don´t feel bad about it.I´m neither police nor judge, I´m just a "driver". I once trained with Mubaraks son in the sim. (nice dude by the way). I once flew the german foreign secretary who might have ordered german troops into battle and was generally speaking not my cup of tea.... Can´t say I have sleepless nights about that. I flew VW executives who have received stern criticism (and should go to jail IMO) for their part in "Dieselgate".
But going back to practical things, so you see Dmitry Yurgowitsch and Adnan Grawotish (I just made these names up btw) on your list. Do you have a special connection to the secret service to find out who they are and what they do ? Or are they just generally suspicious cause they ...fly some place ?

Now to your guns...IF they had been used to defend, say Kurds from the IS, surely they would be "good" guns ? Is it really your place to decide what is "okay" morally (if otherwise legal) to transport and what is not ? Look, we all know that in an ideal world.... But it ain´t and never will be ideal.

[CL300]

Having worked in several AOCs since NJE - they are fairly unique in that they are happy (and expect) the ops manuals to be applied as written.

I never experienced any pressure (or fallout) to bend any rules or to work beyond any limits.

How many any other operators ‘miraculously’ discover all their tech log items on the last flight back to base and never have AOGs for example?

This is absolutely true..; NJE plays by the rules it set for itself, and stick to it. My comment was just to show that wherever or whoever you are looking at there is pros and cons..

[Daddy Fantastic]

This is absolutely true..; NJE plays by the rules it set for itself, and stick to it. My comment was just to show that wherever or whoever you are looking at there is pros and cons..

How does Vistajet compare to these guys in your opinion?

[alanpartridge]

How does PPJN vet/verify information that's posted? The above is incorrect as far as i know (both 19/11 and VistaJet pilots being insane, how do they all pass their medicals?)

Perhaps a few things need clearing up about VJ in this thread.....

Technically the contract has allowed 19/11 for a while, it’s only now that they’re asking crew to start a couple of rotations per year a day early. Initially it was by force but now you bid for two months of the year when you’re happy to start early. It’s still 17/13 though, generally.

All said and done you’re probably looking at about 215-220 days a year where you’re away on company duty, including your training days. So what does that work out at? Something like 18/12? Usually you’re home early on day 17, sometimes you’ll make it home on day 16. If you’re lucky you’ll be late going out on day 1. It’s hard for the family man (or woman) but in fairness to management they do tell you this at interview stage. They’re also honest about the [poor] pay, the hard work and promise nothing more than 3* hotels, so they’re very open about the conditions.

The reality is different. Hotels are generally very good; you win some, you lose some, but generally they’re Crowne Plaza type as standard. Asia, Central America and ME can see some outstanding hotels and they certainly outweigh the crap ones. Hotels just aren’t an issue for most.

On the other hand the pay is. But then you’re told that at the outset so what can you say? They’ve obviously done the sums to work out whether it’s worth increasing salaries to retain people or whether it’s cheaper to bond new guys. Looks like it’s cheaper to bond new guys!

It can be incredibly hard work though. Even though the numbers work it doesn’t take into account flying through the night and missing a whole night of sleep, having a few hours of [poor quality] sleep during the day and then flying again the following night. You can say ‘no’ though. People do and as far as I know they don’t really get questioned about it.

There are some excellent sides to the job. The variety of destinations is unrivalled. The equipment is top notch and well maintained. The crews are, on the whole, fantastic. There’s generally quite a bit of freedom, I certainly never felt like management was breathing down your neck all the time. You get paid on the dot, every single month.

Downsides are economy class proceeding, low pay, not enough crew and too long rotations.

It’s not for everyone and you’re always going to get people who moan, but they’re not a million miles off creating a company you could call a career company. A few more crew, a few days less per month and a bit more cash and people wouldn’t leave. It’s really quite good fun. Yes you can earn more and work less elsewhere but for a lot of people there’s more to the package. That being said; I think most crew would agree that the balance between work, life and money isn’t working out in their favour at the moment, hence people are leaving.

I hope that clears things up a little. I thought it was a nice place to work.

M

[engine21]

given the current lack of crew: are the hour requirements for the global fo vacancy set in stone or are they flexible with it?

[CL300]

How does Vistajet compare to these guys in your opinion?

Nothing compares to NJE IMHO, both in Good and Bad; If they did not fire all French and Belgium based captains overnight I will still be there.

VistaJet is a contender, ran by Austrian DNA, as a consequence pay can be an issue, but again what else at that scale in Europe ? If they call me me, i will join , no doubt, whatever the fleet

[dnx]

Aircraft are well maintained. But being a truly "global operator" maintenance is carried out where-ever necessary. I've never had Management ask (or demand) to take a limping bird into the air. For them it's all about reputation. Most of their clientele they get from mouth to ear and anecdotal referrals. And since we're busier then ever I think that means that part at least is covered.

[Daddy Fantastic]

VJ looking for Global 6000 and CL 350/850 FO.

Any change to the conditions, schedule etc. Is it still 17 days on 13 days off, that seems to be putting a lot of experienced crew off working there.

[FLYDUS]

I don't get why so much people complain about their roster. Honestly, in business aviation there are not many companies offering better ones than this. Maybe a real 14/14 is better, although my experience is that those companies who advertises a 14/14 in reality proceed you on your first off day and after your last duty day. So, basically it is more of a 16/12

I was flying for Vistajet almost 12 years. I left them and i am very happy where i am right now. The roster in VJ was extremely stable. Cannot comment on how it is now. I had in 80 percent of the cases my proceeding home on my last duty day in the evening, so my roster was most of the time a 16/14 rather than 17/13.

I would like to know which companies offer significantly better rosters. If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13

[733driver]

If you say Netjets with their 6/5, okay your opinion. I would not like it. I would rather go for 17/13

Wow. I don't know what to call this. Crazy? Delusional? Take your pick.

The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top.

Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous.

Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts.

[His dudeness]

Wow. I don't know what to call this. Crazy? Delusional? Take your pick.

The NJE roster means less days of work per year, less time away from friends and family, both consecutively and cumulative. At NJE you do all your training on duty days and vacation is on top.

Vista just doesn't compare. To state otherwise is insane. Ridiculous.

Sorry to be so blunt. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the facts are the facts.


I´d like to work 6/5 rather than 17/13 BUT if he likes it better, than thats his opinion. Period.

[733driver]

I´d like to work 6/5 rather than 17/13 BUT if he likes it better, than thats his opinion. Period.

Absolutely. I was just trying to say that Vista's rostet is objectively worse than NJEs. It's more work and for less pay, too.

To like vista's roster better than NJE's is really quite irrational.

[733driver]

As long as it’s the same as yours? Would love to sit next to you for six days......just imagine 17.........

17/13 works for me, 6/5 doesn’t. Opinion and fact. 17 is long but I’d prefer that to the ballache of proceeding more than once a week.


You couldn't be more wrong about being on tour with me. We almost always have a great time and respect each others opinions, of course.

I imagine during 17 days on you will frequently be required to take an airline mid-tour. For example when an aircraft goes into maintenance or when you need your two local nights off to reset the duty clock but the aircraft needs to keep flying. So I don't think you will necessarily only have two airlines per 17 day tour. Granted, the same is true for NJE, sometimes.

However, in NJE your airline is in business class if it's longer than six hours. In Vista it's always eco, right? Now that would be a real pain for me.

In Vista you do all your training on your OFF days. In NJE it's on duty days.

And what about vacation? In NJE vacation is subtracted form your paid duty days.

Overall, I'm sure you work many days less at NJE per year and you get paid more, too. And you are gone for less time in one stretch.

It's ok to be happy enough with the vista roster but I really have a very hard time understanding how anyone could consider vista's roster better. Objectives it clearly isn't better. And even subjectively I struggle with that assessment. Now, if we were talking a true 14/14 or 15/15 with long haul travel in biz the I could see how some might like that better than 6/5 or 7/6. It still wouldn't be my preference, though.

[Boabity]

It’s only 17/13 if you disregard the extra days you are required to do every few months and the 4 off periods disturbed by training and pointless company parties.
each of those 13 days loses between 4 or 5 days so at best with the 18 “off days” you must work you’re working 18/12 or 19/11 with precious little compensation for it.
It’s far from a bad company but if you look at the overall package for FOs NJE is miles better and other companies are offering substantially better money for similar roster patterns that are a bit less stable but still allow for paid leave Vista gives you zero leave because that’s what your off days are for... It isn’t Captains that are leaving, it’s FOs and if you look at that package in isolation Vista is terrible.

[733driver]

What’s the time to left seat at NJE?

Probably long. No-one knows.

But that doesn't make the Vista roster better than the NJE one :)

[Boabity]

What’s the time to left seat at NJE?
Vista is 6 - 8 years at the moment (anyone claiming otherwise is delusional or lying) NJE is between 8 and 10 probably. Vista FOs aren’t leaving for Netjets - but they are leaving. Netjets FOs are much less in a hurry to move on in spite of the lack of upgrade. Evidently the promise of an upgrade to Captain at some point in the future isn’t quite enough to keep them, maybe some paid vacation might help, or some more effective fatigue management. ;)

[FLYDUS]

733Driver,

totally get your points, especially pointing out the 4 months per year we had to do OPC/LPC, CRM and Strategy Days during our OFF.
My main reason to leave was the eco proceedings and those 4 months.........

There are plenty of valid reasons, i decided to leave after almost 12 years, and i am really happy where i am right now.

Anyway, is still believe that 6/5 for me personally doesn't fit as good as my current 14/14 is doing. I just like the fact to come home and almost feel like having a vacation every month. but as we could both see on the replies, everybody is different and has its unique ways of dealing in this challenging industry.

Happy landings.

[733driver]

Thanks FLYDUS,

Glad to hear you are happy where you are now. I can totally see that a good 14/14 gig can be quite appealing to some.

Take care :-)

[Meester proach]

What, prey tell, is a “ strategy day “ and why are you doing it on days off ?

[Boabity]

What, prey tell, is a “ strategy day “ and why are you doing it on days off ?
You go to Malta to get drunk with your friends while pretending like you want to be there but really you’d much rather be at home. At some point in the proceedings at least one person with the initials TF tells you that you don’t work hard enough in spite of providing the boss with double digit growth... again.
you get to meet people you’ve not met in the company and will probably never meet again and meet a few that you got drunk with last year.

Some of it is fun but it’s not worth the ballache and 5 days of your time. They go because it’s mandatory. It does make you feel like part of something bigger for a week or so.

[nibs2007]

Boabity- if vistajet is that bad, why don’t you resign. Companies don’t get double digit growth with negative people like you (if you are in fact working for vj). If you don’t, then keep going - your jealousy shines through mate.

[CL300]

Boabity- if vistajet is that bad, why don’t you resign. Companies don’t get double digit growth with negative people like you (if you are in fact working for vj). If you don’t, then keep going - your jealousy shines through mate.
Austria is the key word here. Same thing at the other one.. People get drunk, the Owner complains that he does not make money, that he has to recruit more pilots, because they are leaving in too large numbers..etc...
The thing is , the market has evolved a bit, and people whom were on a standby list somewhere are leaving, and the new one's ( despite FO, that would take any jobs anyway) have the choice..
They will have to tune and tweak a little the T&Cs, but they are running a cash machine..no worries..

[nibs2007]

36 pilots left last year mate. That’s 36 out of 350. And two of them were fired. Clearly you don’t know your facts. Scary that you fly a plane...right seat only I hope....

[Boabity]

36 pilots left last year mate. That’s 36 out of 350. And two of them were fired. Clearly you don’t know your facts. Scary that you fly a plane...right seat only I hope....
The first number was true in Sept by December it was a lot bigger. The second one has never been true even if you add in the Jet Aviation crew.
I’d say my thoughts are a pretty accurate reflection of how things go down, you may think it’s negative, then again you haven’t yet been flying for vista yet. Good luck, it’s a good place to get lots of experience.

[nibs2007]

Boabity - I am sure there is more to life then being online just after quarter past midnight... just to confirm your intel is factually incorrect!

Would you please stop spreading fake news!

You should act more positively, responsibly and least to say professionally that’s what our industry expects from us.

Now that we are getting little personal and you know my aspirations. Let me give you quick summary,
excited to say the least, working on truly global operation with some of the most amazing and hard working people I have ever meet. We are developing company so comes with lots of hard work across the spectrum.

So I simply say it’s Horses for courses, as you know pastures aren’t always greener, are they?

I hope this clears any misconceptions and wish you move on.

On that final note, could I ask who exactly is Boabity?

[EatMyShorts!]

Nice try, nibsi!

PS: have you ever thought of the possibility that "quarter past midnight" may be "quarter past 2pm" somewhere else in the world?

[His dudeness]

Nice try, nibsi!

PS: have you ever thought of the possibility that "quarter past midnight" may be "quarter past 2pm" somewhere else in the world?


If the "nibs-person" is either ops or management, then it does not know this unimportant fact. Thats why they think we are continuously on holiday trips.

[Setting]

36 pilots left last year mate. That’s 36 out of 350. And two of them were fired. Clearly you don’t know your facts. Scary that you fly a plane...right seat only I hope....

Boabity is spot on with his description of the strategy day. Afraid of the reality? 36 / 350 is 10.2% staff turn over. Sounds pretty high in my ears?

[Daddy Fantastic]

It is high...says a lot about VJ!!

[tomuchwork]

Worked for them(VJS) a while ago.

As soon as I got an airline job again I ran as fast as I could - still they messed with me - my holidays misteriously(was on the VERY old Austrian contract with 5 weeks of holidays/year) disappeared, only a few days remained.All records vanished. My company mailbox got locked more or less immediately after I resigned, even I still was in my notice period. AND finally, my 5 year bonus did not make it anymore into my account(even if well earned). So, be careful, as many in this business you have to look after your pay. Or be prepared to go to court in Malta(yeah, that would work ;-) ).

Apart from above mentioned things I fully agree :

Cons:

- 17/13 which actually was, when I was there, a 19/11. Not sure if they really changed that. The 11 off contain 3-4 days/month of holidays, so at the end only 6-7 days off/month in fact. In my earlier days there I had some 25/5 rotations and I recall a 19 on, 2 off, 7 on "gig" as well. They did not ask me, they just planned it.
- pay is bad, true. Even as an Austrian I found it bad considering how much you have to "do" for them while you are on(of course everything around the aircraft, data monitoring download, processing, FMS database upload(of course preparation of the package before in the hotel), helping the girl clean the aircraft(was even "enforced" by company memo, anyway, most guys helped anyway as the finally wanted to reach the hotel a tad earlier and keep the girl in a good mood ^^).....). Plus of course you went with the girl shopping to carry that bloody bottled water as we where not allowed to order that from catering. So - at least 2 times(normally more often) some good shopping trips, carrying the stuff to the hotel, sometimes, if no storage, carry it to the room and then all together with your own stuff for 17+ days back down when it was time to fly again. So many memories thinking we are a moving company not a bizz jet crew.....
- hotels have been not the best.Especially in Europe. In Asia and ME they have been ok. Russia sometimes - brrrr. Do NOT miss them.
- all training in off days - so again your 11-13 will be shortened at least 3-4 times/year. AND YES - they will make a big fuzz if you do NOT agree with them.
- on top of the training you had(do not know if that is still required) to attend a "party"(I think they called that BS "strategy day") every year. Usually a summer or winter edition took place, so both sides of the roster would have to attend one. Normally 1-2 days, with some brainwashing and party. Most of the time I managed to avoid it. English folks tend to like that kind of stuff, so it is not a "minus" for all of us
- sometimes VERY difficult passengers, especially Russians or from former russian republics. If they got to offensive(had to call in once) the company usually stands behind you and will swap the crew/aircraft if another flight is booked with same customer. Here the airliner cockpit doors are really missing. Found that really a safety issue, after all you really do not know which strange people with which "profession" you had on board.
-some managed to have a kind of part time roster. But the company do not really like to give that away. Normally on part time you could not go onto the Global, and during my time there they started to exclude part timers from the seniority list(which got rectified pretty fast after I went to Austrian Authorities(Arbeiterkammer) to claim a violation of equal threatment laws. We had seniority back after 4 weeks. But they try - wherever they can. And sometimes they succeed. All in all very exhausting for the employee as you feel like Don Quijote - always fighting windmills.


Pros(for me):
- VERY nice collegues in general - with most it was easy to "survive" this 17-19 days on(some of the chicks in the back had some problems and could annoy you in the long run). Generally the cockpit "atmosphere" was great.
- flying is very different compared to airline aviation. No problem in flying the aircraft as well manually, a thing that many airlines call you in the office for "tea and biscuits". Most likely the ONE big thing I miss(airline flying is a bit boring, however I love the stability of the rosters compared to that 17/13). Flying was fun.

If it has to be GA, try to find something better. My 10 cents. The shiny office and aircraft tend to convince many potential candidates that the rest of the outfit is shiny as well.... ermm.....nope, it isn't.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Do they still have a mass exodus of pilots?
From the sounds of it their reputation is not too great and they need a lot of work to start looking like a good employer or potential employer.

[Journey Man]

VERY nice collegues in general

tomuchwork - great, detailed post that really adds to the thread.

I think it says quite a lot when the "pros" are generally what I would take as a given for any operation - but that might just be me!

[Dan the weegie]

Worked there for almost 6 years, mostly it was a happy time. The hotels were pretty great the last couple of years save a few choice ones and they were starting to send long haul proceedings biz class (within reason). Everything else is pretty normal stuff, the working hours are pretty intense but then again they don’t hide it or lie at the interview and if it gets too much you can have a sensible discussion about it,

They provided me with some nice type ratings and second to none experience in exchange for my efforts I’m really grateful for the opportunity they gave me if they had offered me more money or some real vacation time I’d have been very happy to stay. The reality was I couldn’t really afford to stay.

The thing is, most people leave a job with an axe to grind and you only hear about the bad experiences or folks like Nibs who are just incredibly committed to it and don’t like the bad stuff being aired.

I miss the people a lot, the work isn’t much different. I get paid more and I booked my first 2 week foreign vacation for my family in nearly 7 years I could not have done this at Vista, It is not perfect but I most certainly don’t look back all angry at being mistreated, I had a ball.

[Leo45]

I have an assessment with VistaJet coming up soon and would appreciate any information on what to expect (interview, tech quizz, simride).

[bleeke]

Can I ask how many hours a typical Global captain would fly every month?

[Setting]

Can I ask how many hours a typical Global captain would fly every month?

It did vary and would be impossible to say on monthly basis. In the old days you used to fly a comfortable 350-450 hours per year. These days it's more 500-600 per year, more close to 600 I've heard and if the management reach what they want it will increase even further. Duties were typical very long with pick up around 2 hours before the flight and 1 hr post flight duties plus transport. Add the time zone changes on top of that. Not a holiday.

[tomuchwork]

Very true! But then it is advertised as a job.....and also depends on the hostie ��




Well, they are not getting better. Nice ladies when I started with them, many many years ago. It became worse over the time till I left. So no luck there either. Fully agree on flight times, minimum rest (on Global which is the worst, but as well other fleets). Not sure why someone with a Global rating would really go there(however I have friends which left as well and for some strange reason see the company in a better light - I always assume there must be something in their water to keep them happy ^^).

So or so - very careful consideration is required if thinking about joining. If you have no job it is obvious, go for it. But IF you have a job careful considerations must be applied. Do not go for the shiny office, chicks in high heels running around in Malta during training days or the shiny, but sometimes stinky silver jets. There is a very dark side behind all the silver lining. Enough said.

[skysx33]

Hi all,

what about F/O sakary on GL fleet ?
what about upgrade to left hand seat ? It's based on seniority ? Experience ? How long it might take ?

Am considering leaving major airline Capt big aircraft for 17/13 contract

thks

[Klimax]

Look at is as a stepping stone, if leaving an airline job, entering the corporate world. Get the type rating and corporate experience and some hours on type, and then leave when something better comes up. Just like in the airline world far from all of the business jet companies look at their employees as an asset, so no reason why you as that employee should treat them any differently. I left the airline world more than a decade ago and can´t see myself ever going back.

[Setting]

Hi all,

what about F/O sakary on GL fleet ?
what about upgrade to left hand seat ? It's based on seniority ? Experience ? How long it might take ?

Am considering leaving major airline Capt big aircraft for 17/13 contract

thks

FO Salary Global 48000 EUR / Year. But you start with 45000 EUR / year until 6 months after you have passed your final line check = Office week + Type Rating + Base Training + Line training (depending on how lucky and good you are expect around 2-4 months) + Final Line check + 6 months @ 45 000 EUR. So in reality around a year before you will see the "big money"....

Upgrade was strictly seniority based for FOs. The trick is to not join as a First Officer at all. Join as a DEC if it becomes available again. Joining the Global fleet now will lock you in the FO seat for at least 5 years. VJ has an order of Global 7500 that might arrive next year but even if they forced all FOs over to the 7500 you would not reach a command position before the expansion finish. After the 7500 deliveries it won't be any more expansion, at least what is known for now. It means FOs will never reach a command position unless people leave, and historically it has been mainly FOs leaving so the waiting time would be long. Probably quicker command at Netjets at the moment....
Experience..... I think you needed 4500 hours total time to be considered for command.

Why would you leave a major airlines as a captain for Vistajet as a First Officer?

[Daddy Fantastic]

I see VJ is hiring on all fleets again which leads one to assume they have lost a few pilots recently as well as some possible expansion going on. Something will have to give there as they will lose to many pilots I suspect which is not sustainable long term.

They dont even pay well, have rubbish 17 on 13 off schedules which is terrible for family life, have bullying management so there does not seem to be much incentive to go there.

[Preacher_Av]

Guess the morning coffee wasn't strong enough. Aircraft overshot runway this morning in EGGP

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-50740693 (https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-england-merseyside-50740693&data=02%7C01%7CRVrielink%40netjets.com%7C59c622381fca4263767 f08d77e1db5ac%7Cafd68e8fa6e1499f9638dceea8479772%7C0%7C0%7C6 37116538388107860&sdata=Qxvl8grYmjZZnEYvbH73f5usiVaituiVTc57sfb0N3o%3D&reserved=0)


https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/231312

[Klimax]

Defo Vistajet. Both ATC callsign and paint scheme on photos, points to a Vistajet incident.

[Jet Jockey A4]

Went off the side of a RET it seems... see photo of the taxiway in the other post I did on this incident.

[Pilotkid]

Good day guys, does anyone know of any operators looking for CL604 Type rated FO’s. Please let me know, I’m interested

cheers

[Klimax]

Any updates on the Vistajet Liverpool incident with the aircraft of the runway. Is there a preliminary report out yet? thank you.

[Daddy Fantastic]

They are probably trying to cover it up...

[WanderingAround]

Rumors are the steering failed on landing.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Has their scheduling changed by the way or do they still do 17 on and 13 off? I believe you also commute on your off days, is that correct?

[Skyshare]

Negative .. you commute on day 1 and 17..... cheers

[EatMyShorts!]

You do everything on your days OFF: several training events per year, commuting, Visa etc..

[EatMyShorts!]

Thanks for the clarification. At least your travel days count as duty! And you have to go to your company propaganda party, quite amusing.

[dirk85]

So 33% of your blocks of days off are spoilt by company duties. Not ideal for sure.

[Klimax]

So 33% of your blocks of days off are spoilt by company duties. Not ideal for sure.

One of the main drawbacks with VistaJet is their low substandard pay. It´s probably a good stepping stone with a solid ops, but the salary is just a joke.

[dirk85]

One of the main drawbacks with VistaJet is their low substandard pay. It´s probably a good stepping stone with a solid ops, but the salary is just a joke.

The only happy campers are the Austrian pilots from what I hear, and that’s because they pay no taxes on their maltese income, but to be fair in my experience they have never set the bar very high in terms of salary expectations...

[dirk85]

and the other 66% are spoilt by being at home with the wife 😜

I’ll take the party in Malta any day, come to think of it

[Daddy Fantastic]

The only happy campers are the Austrian pilots from what I hear, and that’s because they pay no taxes on their maltese income, but to be fair in my experience they have never set the bar very high in terms of salary expectations...

I presume you mean they are based in Malta and actually living out there.

[EatMyShorts!]

Not necessarily, there may be a agreement between Austria and Malta and no further tax needs to be paid in Austria. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.

[WanderingAround]

Living in Austria, working for a Maltese based company, you still need to pay the taxes and social security in Malta (which is something like 700-800€ a month for an FO). The agreement between Austria and Malta states only that no extra taxes need to be paid to the Austrian state.The taxes in Austria are considerably higher and the difference does not need to be paid as is the case with France for example.

I’ll take the party in Malta any day, come to think of it

If you want to see drunk captains (married with kids) drooling on ten years younger flight attendants, you are very welcome. If adultery is not your style, I recommend avoiding the evening event.
​​​​​​​

[what next]

If you want to see drunk captains (married with kids) drooling on ten years younger flight attendants, you are very welcome.
​​​

You don't have to go to the party for that, this is what the 17 days on are for :8

[dirk85]

Living in Austria, working for a Maltese based company, you still need to pay the taxes and social security in Malta (which is something like 700-800€ a month for an FO). The agreement between Austria and Malta states only that no extra taxes need to be paid to the Austrian state.The taxes in Austria are considerably higher and the difference does not need to be paid as is the case with France for example.



If you want to see drunk captains (married with kids) drooling on ten years younger flight attendants, you are very welcome. If adultery is not your style, I recommend avoiding the evening event.


Malta does not charge income taxes on non resident pilots, and as you pointed put, in this particular situation, neither do the Austrian authority. That explains my happy camper comment above.

[His dudeness]

EU vs non-EU ?

[WanderingAround]

As far as I know, this comes down only to bilateral agreements between countries.

[Banana Joe]

I also live in Germany and work in another European country and even enjoy the perks of an expat contract that makes me pay less taxes in the country where I work and nothing is due to Germany.
Look at regulations concerning EU cross border workers in the EU.

[dirk85]

Out of curiosity, how's things going in Vista and in the business jet side of aviation with this virus? Noticed a significant reduction in flights or the wealthy ones keep flying as normal?

[Jet Jockey A4]

Out of curiosity, how's things going in Vista and in the business jet side of aviation with this virus? Noticed a significant reduction in flights or the wealthy ones keep flying as normal?

I was told last week while flying to Europe from Canada that flying would increase because of the virus situation. Now more people would have access to the aircrafts instead of taking the airlines.

However by the end of the week when Trump closed the USA's borders and with others to follow, the boss said that this was changing everything and that the flying would drop.

[Abruzzi]

Hi guys!

any rumors about vistajet recommencing recruitment for pilots soon?

[Pilotkid]

Hi guys, does Vistajet have any N registered aircraft in their fleet ?

[Abruzzi]

Hi guys, does Vistajet have any N registered aircraft in their fleet ?

Hi Pilotkid,

I`am not sure about today, but till the end of 2019 they had at least 7 N-registered Globals 6000 + 1 Agusta 109 helicopter.

[FLEXJET]

FAA database shows 8 VistaJet CL350s and 6 Global 5000s, all operated by Xojet, Inc which they acquired in 2018.

[Pilotkid]

Thank you For that info.

[Preacher_Av]

So the CFO left after a couple of years, now replaced by 2 interim co-CFOs. Feeling the pressure to generate revenues perhaps?

[LGW Vulture]

So the CFO left after a couple of years, now replaced by 2 interim co-CFOs. Feeling the pressure to generate revenues perhaps?

I hear they are attempting to be financially "creative".

[TheFatViking]

Has anybody been invited for an interview in the last week? My application has changed from submitted to under review, things might be moving... slowly!

[A320_jockey]

Has anybody been invited for an interview in the last week? My application has changed from submitted to under review, things might be moving... slowly!

may I ask when you applied, there are currently no vacancies for pilots on VJ career website

[TheFatViking]

may I ask when you applied, there are currently no vacancies for pilots on VJ career website
I applied in July for a speculative position.

[dcoded]

Any news at Vista?
Are you guys flying more or less "pre-covid" levels or still far to go?

[FLEXJET]

News: they sold their Global 7500, 9H-VIS became N7584G last week.

[ginopino]

They didn’t sell it.... it just moved to US AOC... XO Aviation.

that’s it.

[Captain-Random]

COVID aside...

Does anyone know whether Brexit will affect the hiring of British pilots in the future ?

[Klimax]

COVID aside...

Does anyone know whether Brexit will affect the hiring of British pilots in the future ?

Surely you'll be required to hold a valid EASA license at time of employment. Will a national UK license be an EASA license after a hard Brexit? We'll know in 18 days.

[BizJetJock]

Will a national UK license be an EASA license after a hard Brexit? We'll know in 18 days.
No, we know now and have done for months. With or without a deal, from 1st January a UK issued licence is no longer an EASA licence. So will be no use for a job at Vistajet or any other European operator. Probably academic, since you also ned the right to live and work in Europe which 99.9% of Brits won't have.

[Klimax]

No, we know now and have done for months. With or without a deal, from 1st January a UK issued licence is no longer an EASA licence. So will be no use for a job at Vistajet or any other European operator. Probably academic, since you also ned the right to live and work in Europe which 99.9% of Brits won't have.

Ok, I didn't realize this was already set in stone. Sorry for that chaps. Is it possible for license holder of an UKCAA issued EASA license to convert to another EASA issuing country and this way maintain the EASA license alongside the UK license? Thx.

[FlyingStone]

Is it possible for license holder of an UKCAA issued EASA license to convert to another EASA issuing country and this way maintain the EASA license alongside the UK license? Thx.

You can only hold one EASA licence per category of aircraft at the same time.

The only solution is to change SOLI from UK to another EASA member state, then after 1st January 2021, use that to get either a validation or a full UK CPL/ATPL.

[CloudChopper95]

Evening all,

Does anyone have any up to date info on the interview process for VJ? Looking to apply under 'general consideration' and want to know what to expect if and when I get a call. not expecting anything this side of next year of course, but info in the back of the head will help!

Thanks,

CloudChopper

[Slorenzen]

Hello Everybody

I have heard somewhere that VistaJet have a check in time of 45 min before OFF BLOCK.

Is there anybody who knows if this is true, and maybe how they can do this?

Thank you very much :-)

SLorenzen

[Banana Joe]

What's wrong with that? We have a check in time of 40 minutes before off block when out of base.

[Slorenzen]

What's wrong with that? We have a check in time of 40 minutes before off block when out of base.
Banana Joe. Nothing wrong with that, i am just wondering how that works. if the flight is delayed 50 minutes the the check in time. how is it writen in your OM-A's and in the regulations?

Best regards

[Intrance]

What's wrong with that? We have a check in time of 40 minutes before off block when out of base.Offtopic, but out of curiosity... do you actually show up at the airport 40 minutes before scheduled off block and only then start preparing your flight?

[dirk85]

40 mins might work in cargo ops, but won’t work with lowcost passengers or business jets.
Ryanair has the same but I guarantee you the FO at least will be in the airport at least eobt -60 if not earlier, not a secret. Green light for boarding is what, -35? Let’s be serious please.
Business jets pilots will be atb the airport even earlier than -60, and I speak by experience

[Hodin]

You indeed can prob. get any biz jet ready in 30 minutes without considering fuel/water/lavatory. 10min to get airside and to the aircraft depending on the location.
Regarding Catering & Cabin preparation however I have my doubts and the IFS needs at least somebody to power up the AC.
If the client turns up early and wants to go with 40min only...yuk! One hour check-in is still rough more often - 90 to 120min is what we have mostly.

[dirk85]

Exactly. You just cannot know when the passenger will show up. If you are not outside of the terminal waiting for the passengers with the plane ready to go at least at eobt -30 you are not doing your job right. And we all know how long it takes to sort out catering, newspapers, toilet service, fuel, etc.

[EatMyShorts!]

What's your problem? Show-time is show-time. If your employer briefs you to show up at ETD-45, then you do that and if you depart with delay then that is the problem of the operator, not yours.

On the other hand it is not a big problem to prepare an aircraft in a few minutes. For a ferry flight you can easily show up 45 minutes before ETD, if you are in the right location, if you have fuel loaded and if all crew members are fully aware of what they need to do to make it happen. No, there won't be much time for a cup of coffee and this kind of nonsense: collect your paperwork, go to the plane, prepare the thing, start up and go.

[dirk85]

What's your problem? Show-time is show-time. If your employer briefs you to show up at ETD-45, then you do that and if you depart with delay then that is the problem of the operator, not yours.

Maybe in Netjets, but the reality is different in most of the operators. Do that two times and see what happens.

The sad truth, true for any company using this nonsense reporting time is that it's a not so subtle way to skirt the FTL legislation. The crew is still expected to show up in whatever time is considered necessary to get the job done, which is surely more than 60 minutes in all passenger flights.
It goes without saying that it can take as little as 15 minutes to get everything done for a ferry flight on a plane that is refuelled, but that's not what we are talking about.

[DCThumb]

The trouble is that the 'Employer' may say report ETD-45, but when the aircraft owner turns up and it isn't ready to go, it is he (or she) that will fire you, not the 'employer'/management company.

[Banana Joe]

40 mins might work in cargo ops, but won’t work with lowcost passengers or business jets.
Ryanair has the same but I guarantee you the FO at least will be in the airport at least eobt -60 if not earlier, not a secret. Green light for boarding is what, -35? Let’s be serious please.
Business jets pilots will be atb the airport even earlier than -60, and I speak by experience
On time performance and turnarounds are a thing in the world of express cargo. And I don't show up one hour before. Show time is show time as somebody else said, and I even get the opportunity to sip a hot cup of coffee.

But ok, I am not familiar with bizjets so I stay in my position.

[EatMyShorts!]

If you need more show-time then ask for it. I know, maybe we are privileged to do this in our OPS, although me and more than 100 colleagues just endured a rough year with lost jobs and an unexpected return.

The problem is: there are a lot of back-stabbers - if you do not do the job according to the owner's demands, even while being illegal (cheating on duty time), somebody else will do it. I wish we ALL could stick together and create a much better place for everyone where nobody would try to undercut somebody else. It's just a dream, it will never happen, I am aware of this.

Back to the question a few posts before this one: I think you can do a short show, but then everything needs to be organized: take the fuel the day before, be sure that the paperwork is ready to be collected (call FBO before leaving hotel), start your briefing on the way to the airport, delegate work to get everything done smoothly and quickly without missing items. The main threat of short shows is that you may lose sight of important things and it might bite you at some point. It is only possible with an experienced crew that understands the task.

And, of course: for a revenue flight you cannot turn up less than 60 or 75 minutes before ETD. Stand together and get this time on record. Report your company if they continue to cheat.

[CloudChopper95]

If I may bring the subject back to my question, does anyone have any info on this. Thanks all :)

​​​
​​​​Evening all,

Does anyone have any up to date info on the interview process for VJ? Looking to apply under 'general consideration' and want to know what to expect if and when I get a call. not expecting anything this side of next year of course, but info in the back of the head will help!

Thanks,

CloudChopper

[Globally Challenged]

If I may bring the subject back to my question, does anyone have any info on this. Thanks all :)

​​​
​​​​
I wouldn’t hold your breath.

They may not be the slickest at recruitment pre-pandemic let alone now.

Several year before COVID, I applied to Vista with 2000 hours on Challenger 300 and never got a reply. I’m not the only one from what I’ve heard.

[CloudChopper95]

Thanks, and sorry to hear that. Any other recommendations to companies that are good to work for? Take care!
cc95
​​​​​​

​I wouldn’t hold your breath.

They may not be the slickest at recruitment pre-pandemic let alone now.

Several year before COVID, I applied to Vista with 2000 hours on Challenger 300 and never got a reply. I’m not the only one from what I’ve heard.

[Proline21]

And, of course: for a revenue flight you cannot turn up less than 60 or 75 minutes before ETD. Stand together and get this time on record. Report your company if they continue to cheat.

I am sure you are very popular among your colleagues and inside your company...

[733driver]

I am sure you are very popular among your colleagues and inside your company...

Don't be mean. You don't know EMS. He's a good guy. He has a spine though and is not easily intimidated by his employer. It's not because of people trying to win a popularity contest that NetJets is the far better place to work at than Vista. Our show times are realistic and yes we would report the company if they tried to pull such a stunt on us. They know it, too. It's nothing personal.

[Klimax]

I even passed and got told to await induction instructions in a couple of days ... Still waiting ten years later! And I had no need to chase them, rated as I was.

As for passing it, it can't be hard as several of the folk I know who have been failed, fired, grossly incompetent or basically unemployable, ended up at VJ (not to say, that applies to everyone, of course not)

Funny (in a bizarre way!), you and I probably did our assessment at around the same recruitment drive time in 2010. I also received "positive" confirmation of having passed the assessment and that I would be contacted by the accountable manager Mr. Amb or something like that. Never heard anymore - needless to say that it didn't matter much back then - nor now. Not exactly an employer that offers anything particular rewarding in most shapes and forms.

[Klimax]

I am sure you are very popular among your colleagues and inside your company...

You obviously don't get his point. To many in this part of the industry has the spine of rainworms.

[theaviatorscorner]

Does anyone know the current economic conditions of Vistajet and if it is true that they do not have vacations?! Could someone show me a roster example? Is it always 17/13? Thank you

[arrowcapitan]

are they hiring ?

[TinFoilhat2]

are they hiring ?

Yes they are hiring again now on the XLS, Challenger and Global.

[CloudChopper95]

Is the xls from XO's Fleet? and is there any unwritten rules of min hours etc?

[trancada]

Do you know the actual T&C’s? Salaries? Day’s on day’s off?


Do you pay the type rating for the CL604 and the Global 7500?

[theaviatorscorner]

Dear,

The latest updated information: pilotjobsnetwork/VistaJet, but I'm not sure about these salaries, vacations... :confused:




Mandatory requirements:

Minimum 1000 hours total time
Valid PART FCL F-ATPL or ATPL
Valid PART FCL Medical (Class 1)
English Level 6
Right to live and work in the EU

Desirable requirement:

Valid appropriate Type Rating on the Citation XLS aircraft

[CloudChopper95]

Friend of mine started a couple of years ago on the 850 and at the moment he's on 80%, started on that so not sure if it will go up. 17/13 roster and annual leave taken only on the 13 off

[dcoded]

How does the employment in Vistjet work?
Are you a "contractor"?
Or everyone is permanently employed by the Maltese company?
Or they have multiple secondary companies in various European states to employ pilots locally in their domicile?
Are any residents of certain European countries excluded from being offered a job in Vistajet? The reason I am asking is that on PPJN there is a note "No French airports" for commuting.

Thanks

[girlpower]

CloudChopper95

Incorrect. Everyone is on full salary. Has been so since July last year.

[MostAnnoying]

17/13 roster and annual leave taken only on the 13 off

What do you mean by this? That you can only take Annual Leave when you have 13 days off on the month or that they use those 13 days as annual leave?

[dirk85]

It means that 13 days off a month already include your holiday entitlement. All training and mandatory company events to be completed in your days “off” as well.

[MostAnnoying]

It means that 13 days off a month already include your holiday entitlement. All training and mandatory company events to be completed in your days “off” as well.

So you cannot get off longer than 13 days in a row?

[dirk85]

So you cannot get off longer than 13 days in a row?

Not under normal circumstances, as far as I know

[TinFoilhat2]

What do you mean by this? That you can only take Annual Leave when you have 13 days off on the month or that they use those 13 days as annual leave?

Basically you have no leave. As you would have had those 13 days off regardless, they now just substitute your 'VACATION LEAVE' for your 13 days off when in actual fact and BY LAW it is meant to come out of the 17 working days!!

Its disgusting treatment and US or Australian pilots would never put up with this nonsense but in good old European fashion the pilots just bend over and take it, anything to fly a shiny jet!!

[BizJetJock]

Its disgusting treatment
Interesting point of view - having more time off each year than someone working 5 days a week with 6 weeks holiday is "disgusting treatment?? And how do you figure out that it has to come out of the 17 by law? Every country I know of (which does not include Aus, so I can't comment on there) merely has a legal miminum number off days off per year - and i think in the US it is only 14 in the whole year. If your contract states that those have to be taken at particular times that is normal. Ask any factory worker!

[zen krempie]

hey guys
any info for the assessment process?

[MostAnnoying]

hey guys
any info for the assessment process?

I got a phonecall yesterday from HR and they said it will take a while before shortlisted candidates will be contacten due to the large amount of applicants. Few weeks at the most she said

[dcoded]

I got a phonecall yesterday from HR and they said it will take a while before shortlisted candidates will be contacten due to the large amount of applicants. Few weeks at the most she said

So it means you were already shortlisted? Or why would HR call you to inform this?

[MostAnnoying]

So it means you were already shortlisted? Or why would HR call you to inform this?

I applied last year and my application got accepted but due COVID cancelled. Wanted to know if I had to apply again or if they would consider my previous application. Along with the email I sent a list full of question about the application and due to the high work rate at the office she called me instead of writing back.

[dcoded]

I applied last year and my application got accepted but due COVID cancelled. Wanted to know if I had to apply again or if they would consider my previous application. Along with the email I sent a list full of question about the application and due to the high work rate at the office she called me instead of writing back.

Ok, that makes sense. Congratulation to passing the assessment, hope they will give priority for those who passed the selection.
Did you happen to find out how many pilots they actually need?
Did they specify to which of the aircrafts they require crew?

Btw, could you shed some light on the assessment in general?

Thanks a million and good luck to us all.

[MostAnnoying]

Ok, that makes sense. Congratulation to passing the assessment, hope they will give priority for those who passed the selection.
Did you happen to find out how many pilots they actually need?
Did they specify to which of the aircrafts they require crew?

Btw, could you shed some light on the assessment in general?

Thanks a million and good luck to us all.

Unfortunately I did not make it to the assessments due to covid so cannot give you any information on the assessment

as in the application they are requiring application for the entire fleet, including the Citation XLS, according to rumours they are looking for about 40 people, but as I said it is a rumour.

Sorry I cannot give you more information

[captain.weird]

What about career possibilities? Like for example if someone upgrades on a business jet, is it likely to also get a skipper position with an airline on the A320/B737? For instance, RYR takes only people with >30,000kgs experience. Pre-Covid, some other operators wanted >27,000kgs. Let's say you're flying a businessjet of 7,000kg or something. What are the chances? Or are PIC hours on >27,000kgs a must?

What are your experiences?

[EatMyShorts!]

Interesting point of view - having more time off each year than someone working 5 days a week with 6 weeks holiday is "disgusting treatment?? And how do you figure out that it has to come out of the 17 by law? Every country I know of (which does not include Aus, so I can't comment on there) merely has a legal miminum number off days off per year - and i think in the US it is only 14 in the whole year. If your contract states that those have to be taken at particular times that is normal. Ask any factory worker!
For starters, we are not factory workers, please compare aviation companies with other aviation companies. Following your logic you should be happy to also only earn the same money as a train or bus driver, since we do the same stuff as them.
And you don't ask your highly valued employees to perform their training and travelling on their OFF-days, this is disgusting, too. Vacation means vacation: vacation days replace working days. In my outfit luckily it's like this: 18 vacation days = one calendar month OFF, period. Don't quote me on it, but as far as I am aware it is even part of work legislation in our contract state.

It's always as much as you allow an employer to go. Get organized, found a trade union, fight for your conditions and don't accept everything what the "Tsar" is dictating.

[MostAnnoying]

What about career possibilities? Like for example if someone upgrades on a business jet, is it likely to also get a skipper position with an airline on the A320/B737? For instance, RYR takes only people with >30,000kgs experience. Pre-Covid, some other operators wanted >27,000kgs. Let's say you're flying a businessjet of 7,000kg or something. What are the chances? Or are PIC hours on >27,000kgs a must?

What are your experiences?
It's a different business in my opinion... Going from a domestic/continental airline to an intercontinental cargo airline, the requirements are not the same either. I think it will all depend on what the demands are of an airline. Take in to consideration there are nowadays loads of pilots on the market due to the pandemic, with massive amounts of experience. If a company is looking for skilled commanders, they will have their pick. Everything can change in a heartbeat (as we have experienced last year)

[dcoded]

Unfortunately I did not make it to the assessments due to covid so cannot give you any information on the assessment

as in the application they are requiring application for the entire fleet, including the Citation XLS, according to rumours they are looking for about 40 people, but as I said it is a rumour.

Sorry I cannot give you more information

I appreciate the information provided, thanks!
40 sounds like a real big number, never the less, this is a rumour network.

[TinFoilhat2]

For starters, we are not factory workers, please compare aviation companies with other aviation companies. Following your logic you should be happy to also only earn the same money as a train or bus driver, since we do the same stuff as them.
And you don't ask your highly valued employees to perform their training and travelling on their OFF-days, this is disgusting, too. Vacation means vacation: vacation days replace working days. In my outfit luckily it's like this: 18 vacation days = one calendar month OFF, period. Don't quote me on it, but as far as I am aware it is even part of work legislation in our contract state.

It's always as much as you allow an employer to go. Get organized, found a trade union, fight for your conditions and don't accept everything what the "Tsar" is dictating.

^^^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Setting]

Do you know the actual T&C’s? Salaries? Day’s on day’s off?


Do you pay the type rating for the CL604 and the Global 7500?

The work pattern is fixed 17/13 and no extra holidays. Your vacation days are included in your 13 days off. You do have vacation as per contract but they will be used for your 13 days off. If I remember correct they used 4 days per month. On top of this you do all your training like simulators, crm and fire courses on your off days. This means that around 3-4 off periods will be interrupted per year. If you include all this extra work, the working days over the year is more 18/11. If you end up on the 350/605 fleet and have your simulator training in Montreal it will be closer to 18.5/10.5. Travel days were inside these 17 days so day 1 and 16/17 are usually dedicated travel days. You will always be home on time under normal circumstances, unless that has changed but I don't think so.

The outfit is challenging from a social view and issues arise if you have special family events planned on your working days like weddings or funerals. If you plan to have kids, make sure they are planned for your off days!

The leadership style from the office can be summed up in a word as dated. An ignorant management that doesn't have the slightest interest in improving work conditions. It was constant talk of cost savings and the need to work harder to make it work.

On the good side, the flying is dynamic and you will travel the world and see places that you will not even come close to in any other airline. But you will not have much time to explore and the schedule is unpredictable and they can call you out anytime they want and that did also happen frequently. You will work HARD.

The company is run with pretty high standards and operating procedures and at first it will look professional. But there will always be a lot of grey areas in this type of operation and especially with this company culture. Another problem is the constant work life balance and unless you are 25, single and having no friends or friends you want to run away from I would not recommend this outfit. 50+ freshly divorced could work as well. You will hardly see home. At the end of the day it is of course a job and VJ will provide that. They will also pay for all type ratings for a 3 year bond. Accept that. Also no crew food provided.

It is positive that jobs are created even during a crisis like now but fact is also that these jobs advertised does not suit everybody.

[Setting]

How does the employment in Vistjet work?
Are you a "contractor"?
Or everyone is permanently employed by the Maltese company?
Or they have multiple secondary companies in various European states to employ pilots locally in their domicile?
Are any residents of certain European countries excluded from being offered a job in Vistajet? The reason I am asking is that on PPJN there is a note "No French airports" for commuting.

Thanks

People were on permanent position with Maltese contract or freelancing contract. You could choose and what you choose mostly depends on where you want to live. In some countries there were no official gateways and then people went for the freelancing contract and took full responsibility for tax payments. There were no, and I guess still aren't, French gateways but I think that would be acceptable with a freelancing contract. Most French were commuting from nearby airports from outside France.
Yes they had secondary companies in many European countries where you would receive your salary from. Like, Spain, Italy, Germany, UK etc.
No I have never heard of anyone being excluded because you had a specific nationality. Most nationalities from all over Europe were represented on the flight deck and in the cabin. Just don't be male cabin crew as they have never hired one.

[dcoded]

People were on permanent position with Maltese contract or freelancing contract. You could choose and what you choose mostly depends on where you want to live. In some countries there were no official gateways and then people went for the freelancing contract and took full responsibility for tax payments. There were no, and I guess still aren't, French gateways but I think that would be acceptable with a freelancing contract. Most French were commuting from nearby airports from outside France.
Yes they had secondary companies in many European countries where you would receive your salary from. Like, Spain, Italy, Germany, UK etc.
No I have never heard of anyone being excluded because you had a specific nationality. Most nationalities from all over Europe were represented on the flight deck and in the cabin. Just don't be male cabin crew as they have never hired one.

Thanks for the information "Setting"
So basically today you have only 2 options, permanent in Malta or Freelance?
No more "local" companies, correct?

Thanks

[Preacher_Av]

Since when do they have XLS??

[theaviatorscorner]

These planes are for the new company XOJET Europe bought by Vista Global Holding.

[MostAnnoying]

I have been asking around on LinkedIn and got in to contact with a crew member who flies the Global Fleet:

- the 13 off days fall every month about the same period, however, it is possible to swap with crew
- If your trip is extended, or if you offer to work more, you get extra money and bonuses (bonus is payed the following February)
- Salary could be better, but in return you get a stable working pattern and his opinion is that the company takes good care of you. For the contact I had, it suited him and his personal life perfectly (I interpret it as 'easily adjustable to your life')
- It can be very very long days on the Global, however, fair layover times (2 to 3 days) so you do get your rest.
- Hotels are almost always topnotch
- Flying approximately 600-700 hours a year and approximately 3 to 4 years till command (also depending on your entry hours)
- Tax situation is dependant upon the country where you live and if they have an agreement with Malta
- Catering is mixed; sometimes crewfood, sometimes food that pax did not eat (which is more than sufficient) or take something yourself. Asking around about this; almost all the companies that have a structure like VistaJet do the same.
- The person I was in contact with said as well that commuting is good (outside of Corona) and quite often gets business class
- Money is not bad and per diems included in should be good!

In my opinion the off day system is not the best; but travelling the world (or throughout your continent) having 2 weeks off for me is more than enough and being able to get on the road after being 2 weeks at home is quite nice. I think this lifestyle should suit you. People I know working at major cargo operators are away for 19 days and get 12 days off and loads of minimum rest on their trips. Or, working 5-4 on a predictable roster is good for planning purposes. But, everybody has their own wishes and demands of a company.

My experience of pilots (i am one as well) is that they are 'Most Annoying' people to work with... it is never good; it is never enough money (people my age in "normal" jobs earn less than half sometimes IN WESTERN EUROPE), the hotels are not good enough, the layovers are too short, the layover are too long, the FO/CPT is an asshole/lazy/arrogant, the food is not good, the passengers are cranky, management is not good, management this, management that. If you go to a company, you know what you sign up for. No one ever gets the best of the best, because it does not exist.

People who are aspiring to join VistaJet don't let your motivation be knocked down by someone who does not agree with something; apply for it if you want, experience it yourself and make a decision yourself.

I'd rather regret choosing something, than regretting to not experience it all!

[Setting]

Thanks for the information "Setting"
So basically today you have only 2 options, permanent in Malta or Freelance?
No more "local" companies, correct?

Thanks

I never heard of any local companies when I was there and I don't think it has changed since then. The main option is employed by Vistajet Malta. Then depending in which country you live in you have a Malta contract Spanish version, Malta contract german version, Malta contract UK version. There is no difference in T&C for you as an employee. It's for VJ as they have to pay different social tax depending on where you live. No one is forced into a freelancing contract unless you ask for it yourself and to be fair this is a good thing with the employment structure in VJ. Not like many low cost airlines where they force you to set up your own freelancing company.
The best contracts were the Austrian, Italian and Spanish where you hardly pay any tax at all. It makes a very low salary suddenly one of the best around. It's difficult to beat a Vistajet captain take home salary in Austria even with a well paid owners job. That's why some people say the salary is great and others living in north Europa saying it's not so good, where you can't use loopholes in the tax systems.

[EatMyShorts!]

People who are aspiring to join VistaJet don't let your motivation be knocked down by someone who does not agree with something; apply for it if you want, experience it yourself and make a decision yourself.

I'd rather regret choosing something, than regretting to not experience it all!
Basically, I do agree with you. I am sure there are quite a few colleagues who will be happy with the Vista lifestyle and I am all fine with that. But once you have seen something "better", you don't want to give it up, or would you?

And that's exactly why one should be informed of all the contractual and factual details before applying, especially if he or she is coming from another job in aviation. Just to avoid disappointment. I am well aware that in general the crew life at Vista is nice, we keep running into them at various places and most of them are really cool - like in most other companies. One just needs to make sure that the contract/conditions do not contain any personal deal breakers. I personally would NOT be happy to be asked to work on my days OFF (training, commuting etc.), because this is duty and I only perform duty on duty days. So, Vista would probably be not my cup of tea.

[CloudChopper95]

Anyone have any further info about license requirements? Careers site says "part-fcl" license, not specified as EASA... So if someone hasn't got an EASA license, can they still work for VJ as they operate European AOC. I have heard of Australian and south African pilots flying for vista and don't hold easa licenses. Anyone shed any light? Cheers

[what next]

So, Vista would probably be not my cup of tea.

That depends on the alternatives. I just read on the internet, that "Deutsche Bahn" (german rail) is massively recruiting train drivers among the thousands of currently unemployed pilots. Train drivers do not get weekends off on a routine basis and are not home every night either. I am pretty sure that they don't usually stay in five star hotels or get business class airline tickets when proceeding home after their shift. And about pay I would rather not elaborate. No idea if their proceedings and trainings are done on duty or off days.
If I had to choose between train or Vistajet (luckily I don't) I would know what to take.

Regards
Max

[CloudChopper95]

Basically, I do agree with you. I am sure there are quite a few colleagues who will be happy with the Vista lifestyle and I am all fine with that. But once you have seen something "better", you don't want to give it up, or would you?

And that's exactly why one should be informed of all the contractual and factual details before applying, especially if he or she is coming from another job in aviation. Just to avoid disappointment. I am well aware that in general the crew life at Vista is nice, we keep running into them at various places and most of them are really cool - like in most other companies. One just needs to make sure that the contract/conditions do not contain any personal deal breakers. I personally would NOT be happy to be asked to work on my days OFF (training, commuting etc.), because this is duty and I only perform duty on duty days. So, Vista would probably be not my cup of tea.

What company do you work for and are they hiring haha

[MostAnnoying]

Basically, I do agree with you. I am sure there are quite a few colleagues who will be happy with the Vista lifestyle and I am all fine with that. But once you have seen something "better", you don't want to give it up, or would you?

And that's exactly why one should be informed of all the contractual and factual details before applying, especially if he or she is coming from another job in aviation. Just to avoid disappointment. I am well aware that in general the crew life at Vista is nice, we keep running into them at various places and most of them are really cool - like in most other companies. One just needs to make sure that the contract/conditions do not contain any personal deal breakers. I personally would NOT be happy to be asked to work on my days OFF (training, commuting etc.), because this is duty and I only perform duty on duty days. So, Vista would probably be not my cup of tea.

i understand your position, definitely. But I do not believe that people who are in the comfort of their jobs now, would want to change. Stability is key at this moment. And you are absolutely right; once you’ve tasted the perfect thing you do not want anything else.

But, the talks on this page are somewhat quite negative. Not just on this Forum, but on loads of them!

[Klimax]

That depends on the alternatives. I just read on the internet, that "Deutsche Bahn" (german rail) is massively recruiting train drivers among the thousands of currently unemployed pilots. Train drivers do not get weekends off on a routine basis and are not home every night either. I am pretty sure that they don't usually stay in five star hotels or get business class airline tickets when proceeding home after their shift. And about pay I would rather not elaborate. No idea if their proceedings and trainings are done on duty or off days.
If I had to choose between train or Vistajet (luckily I don't) I would know what to take.

Regards
Max

The problem with some pilots are that they compare themselves "down" and not "up". I believe the undertaking, let alone the self sponsored training, of a fully qualified pilot requires somewhat more and are somewhat more demanding than that of the German train driver.

[BizJetJock]

Eat My Shorts and Tinfoil Hat
First, my comment about factory workers related to legal requirements. As far as the law is concerned we are no different.
But i think the main issue is people, including a lot on here, misundestanding the contract. You are not doing anything in your "off" days. The contract is to fly the 17 day rotations and to attend sim training and the week in Malta. The rest of the time beyond that is your "off" time. Since it is more than is legally required, it is perfectly reasonable of them to offer it. If that and the salary are acceptable to your goals and lifestyle, then go ahead and sign it - i wouldn't. But to start foaming about it being "disgusting treatment" is delusional.
If enough people don't sign then they will be forced to improve it by market forces, but i'm not holding my breath on that.

[EatMyShorts!]

If I had to choose between train or Vistajet (luckily I don't) I would know what to take.It will probably sound arrogant, but I personally would not join either. The company I work for has a subsidiary where the roster is 20 ON, 10 OFF. Even worse than Vista. No way.

I was made redundant last year (and got the job back soon after) and I was not prepared to do this kind of stuff. I was prepared for 1 or 2 years of not being employed in aviation, maybe take some other job outside aviation in the meantime. A war chest always helps, fill it up in the good years!

[MostAnnoying]

It will probably sound arrogant, but I personally would not join either. The company I work for has a subsidiary where the roster is 20 ON, 10 OFF. Even worse than Vista. No way.

I was made redundant last year (and got the job back soon after) and I was not prepared to do this kind of stuff. I was prepared for 1 or 2 years of not being employed in aviation, maybe take some other job outside aviation in the meantime. A war chest always helps, fill it up in the good years!

More space for others to join! “The ideal image” of a job in aviation is something that is seen in one of those movies with Leonardo Di Caprio. Good airline, recognition for the job, good pay and “sweet honeys” walking next to you!

People need to start getting their heads of the dirt and realize that there is only a handful of jobs like those and when you are in, it’s not good again!

[what next]

The problem with some pilots are that they compare themselves "down" and not "up".

Maybe they are just being realistic? Apart from some lucky niches, working conditions for pilots have generally become worse and worse over the 30 years that I have been in this business. Airlines and general aviation alike. There is not much "up" left to compare oneself with.

I believe the undertaking, let alone the self sponsored training, of a fully qualified pilot requires somewhat more and are somewhat more demanding than that of the German train driver.

AFAIK it takes between two and three years to become a fully qualified train driver here. Paid for by the employer and with a salary while you are being trained. Thereafter you must work your way up from small regional train via night freight to shiny high-speed train. It is not entirely unsimilar to a flying career only that you do not have to pay for anything yourself... I know a guy who started as a medical doctor, later became a pilot with a regional airline and is now a train driver in Switzerland. According to him the best life he's ever had and no way he is going back to one of his previous professions.

[Cloud Bunny]

It will probably sound arrogant, but I personally would not join either. The company I work for has a subsidiary where the roster is 20 ON, 10 OFF. Even worse than Vista. No way.

I was made redundant last year (and got the job back soon after) and I was not prepared to do this kind of stuff. I was prepared for 1 or 2 years of not being employed in aviation, maybe take some other job outside aviation in the meantime. A war chest always helps, fill it up in the good years!

Could I ask who the 20on/10off is with? Please PM me if you’d prefer not to divulge in public. I’m making the transition into corporate after a long time in the Airlines (long held ambition and all that) and am very interested in what options there are out there. Thanks a lot.

[EatMyShorts!]

“The ideal image” of a job in aviation is something that is seen in one of those movies with Leonardo Di Caprio. Good airline, recognition for the job, good pay and “sweet honeys” walking next to you!

People need to start getting their heads of the dirt and realize that there is only a handful of jobs like those and when you are in, it’s not good again!Why should they? Everyone is entitled to be happy wherever they wish to be at. I am very happy in my place, the almost ideal mixture of roster, salary, vacation and operating conditions. Come on, there's always something to nag about, no matter what business you work in! It's human and as you know the grass is always greener on the other side. And I can assure that in my outfit some people may be whinging a bit, but after all most would not change, no way!

[what next]

Hello!

Come on, there's always something to nag about, no matter what business you work in!

This is not my experience. In my previous life I was an aerospace engineer (as in the german "Ingenieur" not the english "mechanic") both in the scientific and industrial environment, and the nagging was maybe 10% of what it is in aviation. Many former colleagues are still happily working in the same position they were in when I left them to fulfill my heavenly dream (at 1/2 of my previous income...) and most of them will stay in their same job until they retire.

I’m making the transition into corporate after a long time in the Airlines (long held ambition and all that) and am very interested in what options there are out there.

The best way into corporate is to find a wealthy individual or company with some modest traveling requirements (not too much, otherwise you will never be home) and talk them into buying a business jet with you as their captain and your best buddy as co-captain or co-pilot. It has been done that way many times and usually works quite well (until the new aircraft owner finds out that he can fly at 1/3 of the cost by using NetJets or similar outfits - therefore you need to find someone so dirt-rich that money doesn't matter at all). The second best alternative is to have a buddy who did that for you already and invites you to be his co-captain :)

[Klimax]

Maybe they are just being realistic? Apart from some lucky niches, working conditions for pilots have generally become worse and worse over the 30 years that I have been in this business. Airlines and general aviation alike. There is not much "up" left to compare oneself with.



AFAIK it takes between two and three years to become a fully qualified train driver here. Paid for by the employer and with a salary while you are being trained. Thereafter you must work your way up from small regional train via night freight to shiny high-speed train. It is not entirely unsimilar to a flying career only that you do not have to pay for anything yourself... I know a guy who started as a medical doctor, later became a pilot with a regional airline and is now a train driver in Switzerland. According to him the best life he's ever had and no way he is going back to one of his previous professions.

No, not necessarily realistic at all. Pessimistic and realistic is not the same - in contrast to what some believe. I do feel sorry for a lot of pilots that are left in disbelieve and consequently disgruntled. It's healthy to sometimes breath in an take a good look around and see what around - and not just in one direction.

And this is the beauty of the differences in us humans - and what we as individuals what from life. It's also hard to know what it's like to do something else unless you've actually done it - however parallels can be used while imagining this other "path". It's also often overlooked that the professional pilot profession is a stressful unless you're "cut" for it - it's not an earthbound job, leaving you with (almost always) "an out". So, job satisfaction is very much an individual thing. Now, for the majority of us, we deal with the stress and it's in effect no a negative stress - and a lot of us thrive from it - while those of us lucky enough get a reasonable (relatively speaking) reward for flying these aeroplanes. Each to his own!

[Klimax]

More space for others to join! “The ideal image” of a job in aviation is something that is seen in one of those movies with Leonardo Di Caprio. Good airline, recognition for the job, good pay and “sweet honeys” walking next to you!

People need to start getting their heads of the dirt and realize that there is only a handful of jobs like those and when you are in, it’s not good again!

Glad I've had about 5 of those jobs for the last 25 years! Sorry you didn't bro. Times have changed, not doubt, but it's all relative. Better luck with the next job - or you could quit..!

[Klimax]

Hello!



This is not my experience. In my previous life I was an aerospace engineer (as in the german "Ingenieur" not the english "mechanic") both in the scientific and industrial environment, and the nagging was maybe 10% of what it is in aviation. Many former colleagues are still happily working in the same position they were in when I left them to fulfill my heavenly dream (at 1/2 of my previous income...) and most of them will stay in their same job until they retire.



The best way into corporate is to find a wealthy individual or company with some modest traveling requirements (not too much, otherwise you will never be home) and talk them into buying a business jet with you as their captain and your best buddy as co-captain or co-pilot. It has been done that way many times and usually works quite well (until the new aircraft owner finds out that he can fly at 1/3 of the cost by using NetJets or similar outfits - therefore you need to find someone so dirt-rich that money doesn't matter at all). The second best alternative is to have a buddy who did that for you already and invites you to be his co-captain :)

I have to disagree on your perception, @what next, of the way into corporate, that you describe. I've not in a decade of business aviation come across a single pilot that made his way in to corporate as you describe it - and I work for one of the largest operators in the world. Most pilots making it into business aviation have either build their career from within this part of the industry or made the switch from airlines into the industry by being humble or accepting a relocation that would see them move onto a "larger" business jet straight away - or they have simply already been (with an airline) in a part of the world (such as Asia/China regina or Middle East) where there was a demand and their overall experience (culturally and professionally) was working in their favor.

[what next]

I have to disagree on your perception, @what next, ...

This is why I put a smiley at the end of my posting. There are all sorts of business jet operators. Some are large organisations similar to an airline (e.g. NetJets) and then there are the welthy individuals who were talked into buying a plane. And everything in between.

[MostAnnoying]

Glad I've had about 5 of those jobs for the last 25 years! Sorry you didn't bro. Times have changed, not doubt, but it's all relative. Better luck with the next job - or you could quit..!

It is a shame.... I’ve only been flying commercially for a near 4 years, and as it sound you’ve got over 5 times the experience as I have. I believe, personally, if I limit my opportunities by only wanting “the best job ever” I will never be happy.

im trying to have an open mind for every company that does not ask me to pay for my typerating

[Klimax]

It is a shame.... I’ve only been flying commercially for a near 4 years, and as it sound you’ve got over 5 times the experience as I have. I believe, personally, if I limit my opportunities by only wanting “the best job ever” I will never be happy.

im trying to have an open mind for every company that does not ask me to pay for my typerating

Good - keep an open mind. If you've only had 4 years of flying commercial - hopefully you'll get a good job with the fun part too. It's out there - just not with Ryanair or any of those other low cost, no night stop, or crappy Eastern European so called airlines. Go for the "legacy" ones, get onto long haul - preferably before you get married! Aviation and lifestyle within can be fun. Trust me!

[Globally Challenged]

No, not necessarily realistic at all. Pessimistic and realistic is not the same - in contrast to what some believe. I do feel sorry for a lot of pilots that are left in disbelieve and consequently disgruntled. It's healthy to sometimes breath in an take a good look around and see what around - and not just in one direction.

And this is the beauty of the differences in us humans - and what we as individuals what from life. It's also hard to know what it's like to do something else unless you've actually done it - however parallels can be used while imagining this other "path". It's also often overlooked that the professional pilot profession is a stressful unless you're "cut" for it - it's not an earthbound job, leaving you with (almost always) "an out". So, job satisfaction is very much an individual thing. Now, for the majority of us, we deal with the stress and it's in effect no a negative stress - and a lot of us thrive from it - while those of us lucky enough get a reasonable (relatively speaking) reward for flying these aeroplanes. Each to his own!

This. :ok:

[MostAnnoying]

Good - keep an open mind. If you've only had 4 years of flying commercial - hopefully you'll get a good job with the fun part too. It's out there - just not with Ryanair or any of those other low cost, no night stop, or crappy Eastern European so called airlines. Go for the "legacy" ones, get onto long haul - preferably before you get married! Aviation and lifestyle within can be fun. Trust me!

what I am searching for is a company I can rely on, with a good trackrecord. For example, I’ve heard great stories about VistaJet. People who are happy and have adjusted their lifestyle to this.

ive got friends in legacy carriers who are not as happy as they thought they would and I’ve got friends in airlines such as Ryanair who are happy as can be. It’s very personal!

if I would get the chance with VistaJet, I would definitely grab it. Because if I enjoy I’ve done a good job and if not, I have experienced it. But, I believe if I can adjust to it, it’s good! So hoping on an invite.

[EatMyShorts!]

Nobody is saying that you should not apply and work for Vista, if you are lucky to make it through. Just be realistic with your expectations, it will be hard work at times, looooooong duty days if you are on the Global. Good luck and success!

[theaviatorscorner]

Can someone update salaries at Vistajet? Is the information in Pilotjobnetwork approximate? A Global's First Officer earning 48,000 euros = 4,000 euros a month flying the global is not a lot of money, and per diem 25 - 60 euros ... Maximum you earn 4,400 euros per month...? You have to take away taxes... Thanks

[dirk85]

As already explained above the salary is just about acceptable (for GA standard in Europe at least, where the bar is set incredibly low, thanks to all the crappy austrian/german/slovenian operators out there) for those who do not pay or pay very little taxes.
For those who do pay taxes the salary is bad, especially for the kind of workload and the time spent on the road.

[eiffel]

How much/how long is the bond ? With these salaries, do people leave before the end of it?

[CloudChopper95]

Any info on this guys?

Anyone have any further info about license requirements? Careers site says "part-fcl" license, not specified as EASA... So if someone hasn't got an EASA license, can they still work for VJ as they operate European AOC. I have heard of Australian and south African pilots flying for vista and don't hold easa licenses. Anyone shed any light? Cheers

[CloudChopper95]

How much/how long is the bond ? With these salaries, do people leave before the end of it?
I believe it's three years

[Setting]

Can someone update salaries at Vistajet? Is the information in Pilotjobnetwork approximate? A Global's First Officer earning 48,000 euros = 4,000 euros a month flying the global is not a lot of money, and per diem 25 - 60 euros ... Maximum you earn 4,400 euros per month...? You have to take away taxes... Thanks

Those numbers are correct for the Global. But you will join with even lower salary than that. If you start on the Global the starting salary is 3000 EUR less per year = 45 000 EUR until 6 months after you pass your line check. Then it will be 48 000 EUR. I would count just under a year before you see those 48 K. Depending on your performance, luck and number of sectors it would probably take you around 4-6 months until you have passed the line check. Then 6 months more with reduced salary before the 48K numbers kick in.
Salaries are:
Global start 45 000 EUR. 6 months after line check 48 000 EUR
Challenger fleets start 42 000 EUR, 6 months after line check 45 000 EUR.

Thereafter the salary increase with 3000 EUR /year after 3 years in service after the passed line check.

Per diems are most of the time tax free and varies depending on the country you live in. But count on 600-800 EUR tax free per month. They are low and you will struggle to eat for that money in some places.
Then you have quarterly bonus. All working days over 51 each quarter qualifies for extra day payment of 200 EUR /day. This one is difficult to reach as some months you will start 2-3 days late and then you won't reach those 51 days. So even if you work on your off days you will not get paid.
Annual extra days. All days you work over 204 days per year will pay you 200 EUR /day. This even includes the stand by days so will pay you around 2000 EUR extra per year.
Then there is a performance bonus that will kick in after, I think it was, 3 years of service. Can't remember the exact numbers but think you started with around 3% bonus of your annual salary. It will then increase 1% every year up to 10%.

You need to have a mental picture why you join this outfit. Things are like they are and will never improve. Salaries have been the same since around 2010. As I have already written there is no interest from anyone higher up to improve your life. They have a model they have been running successfully and will continue to do so until a few handful individuals walk away very happy from this outfit. You as a crew won't be one of them. That's why it is important to know why you are joining VJ otherwise you will be disappointed. I had a great time, fun flying, nice colleagues but VJ is not a long term career employer for the crews, unlike NetJets.

[Setting]

How much/how long is the bond ? With these salaries, do people leave before the end of it?

3 years after you passed the line check so around 3,5 years. There was a couple of people who did leave early. I wound definitely not recommend it as I've heard they do come after you with lawyers.

[theaviatorscorner]

Those numbers are correct for the Global. But you will join with even lower salary than that. If you start on the Global the starting salary is 3000 EUR less per year = 45 000 EUR until 6 months after you pass your line check. Then it will be 48 000 EUR. I would count just under a year before you see those 48 K. Depending on your performance, luck and number of sectors it would probably take you around 4-6 months until you have passed the line check. Then 6 months more with reduced salary before the 48K numbers kick in.
Salaries are:
Global start 45 000 EUR. 6 months after line check 48 000 EUR
Challenger fleets start 42 000 EUR, 6 months after line check 45 000 EUR.

Thereafter the salary increase with 3000 EUR /year after 3 years in service after the passed line check.

Per diems are most of the time tax free and varies depending on the country you live in. But count on 600-800 EUR tax free per month. They are low and you will struggle to eat for that money in some places.
Then you have quarterly bonus. All working days over 51 each quarter qualifies for extra day payment of 200 EUR /day. This one is difficult to reach as some months you will start 2-3 days late and then you won't reach those 51 days. So even if you work on your off days you will not get paid.
Annual extra days. All days you work over 204 days per year will pay you 200 EUR /day. This even includes the stand by days so will pay you around 2000 EUR extra per year.
Then there is a performance bonus that will kick in after, I think it was, 3 years of service. Can't remember the exact numbers but think you started with around 3% bonus of your annual salary. It will then increase 1% every year up to 10%.

You need to have a mental picture why you join this outfit. Things are like they are and will never improve. Salaries have been the same since around 2010. As I have already written there is no interest from anyone higher up to improve your life. They have a model they have been running successfully and will continue to do so until a few handful individuals walk away very happy from this outfit. You as a crew won't be one of them. That's why it is important to know why you are joining VJ otherwise you will be disappointed. I had a great time, fun flying, nice colleagues but VJ is not a long term career employer for the crews, unlike NetJets.

Thank you very much!

[Klimax]

Those numbers are correct for the Global. But you will join with even lower salary than that. If you start on the Global the starting salary is 3000 EUR less per year = 45 000 EUR until 6 months after you pass your line check. Then it will be 48 000 EUR. I would count just under a year before you see those 48 K. Depending on your performance, luck and number of sectors it would probably take you around 4-6 months until you have passed the line check. Then 6 months more with reduced salary before the 48K numbers kick in.
Salaries are:
Global start 45 000 EUR. 6 months after line check 48 000 EUR
Challenger fleets start 42 000 EUR, 6 months after line check 45 000 EUR.

Thereafter the salary increase with 3000 EUR /year after 3 years in service after the passed line check.

Per diems are most of the time tax free and varies depending on the country you live in. But count on 600-800 EUR tax free per month. They are low and you will struggle to eat for that money in some places.
Then you have quarterly bonus. All working days over 51 each quarter qualifies for extra day payment of 200 EUR /day. This one is difficult to reach as some months you will start 2-3 days late and then you won't reach those 51 days. So even if you work on your off days you will not get paid.
Annual extra days. All days you work over 204 days per year will pay you 200 EUR /day. This even includes the stand by days so will pay you around 2000 EUR extra per year.
Then there is a performance bonus that will kick in after, I think it was, 3 years of service. Can't remember the exact numbers but think you started with around 3% bonus of your annual salary. It will then increase 1% every year up to 10%.

You need to have a mental picture why you join this outfit. Things are like they are and will never improve. Salaries have been the same since around 2010. As I have already written there is no interest from anyone higher up to improve your life. They have a model they have been running successfully and will continue to do so until a few handful individuals walk away very happy from this outfit. You as a crew won't be one of them. That's why it is important to know why you are joining VJ otherwise you will be disappointed. I had a great time, fun flying, nice colleagues but VJ is not a long term career employer for the crews, unlike NetJets.

Unimpressive numbers, hence why pilots leave then - not hard to understand that.

[MostAnnoying]

Unimpressive numbers, hence why pilots leave then - not hard to understand that.

The amount you get is quite dependent upon which country you live. Austria is supposed to be quite beneficial, and Spain as well if I believe the person who told me.

[EatMyShorts!]

The amount you get is quite dependent upon which country you live. Austria is supposed to be quite beneficial, and Spain as well if I believe the person who told me.
No matter whether you pay 0% or 40% taxes, it is still a laughable salary for crew on one of the most expensive business jets in the world. It's a nice job for starters, but then run.

[MostAnnoying]

No matter whether you pay 0% or 40% taxes, it is still a laughable salary for crew on one of the most expensive business jets in the world. It's a nice job for starters, but then run.

Uncommon opinion: money is not everything tho!

[EatMyShorts!]

Absolutely, but there is no reason to allow high profile companies getting away with underpaying their workforce who do a great job.

[Klimax]

The amount you get is quite dependent upon which country you live. Austria is supposed to be quite beneficial, and Spain as well if I believe the person who told me.

The pay we're referring to is brutto and that's a low pay for a "large cabin" business jet. Of course, if you're a low time, little experienced pilot, it's an opportunity to get a type rating, see the world and get a good amount of flying in (something most private jet managed operations lack, in the perspective of a low time pilots with aspirations of moving to the left seat) and I suppose it's not a low pay compared to most airline entry First Officer positions. So, again, each to his own. And right now beggars can't be choosers I suppose.

[Klimax]

Absolutely, but there is no reason to allow high profile companies getting away with underpaying their workforce who do a great job.

Absolutely correct. Spot on! Unfortunately this is common for most Austrian and German companies - I don't know wtf is wrong in these countries.

[MostAnnoying]

Absolutely correct. Spot on! Unfortunately this is common for most Austrian and German companies - I don't know wtf is wrong in these countries.

my guess is ‘supply & demand’. More than enough pilots willing to work. If it was the other way around, pilots would have the benefit. Unfortunately, those times are not the present. I do believe in a few years things might change.

[EatMyShorts!]

The issue in Germany is that almost anyone can go for a CPL/IFR/ATPL, once you are able to count to 3... Competition is really fierce and on top of it you are considered a "rich man" if you make more than 50k EUR per year - before tax.

[eiffel]

3 years after you passed the line check so around 3,5 years. There was a couple of people who did leave early. I wound definitely not recommend it as I've heard they do come after you with lawyers.

... and how much are they charging for it?.... (The Global can be an expensive rating... )
Under which country's legislation are these lawyers chasing the employees who left early ?

[dcoded]

Anyone with some more intel?
Rumour a few post up suggest they need 40 pilots.

Btw, does VistaJet do fleet transfers from within the company?

[MostAnnoying]

Anyone with some more intel?
Rumour a few post up suggest they need 40 pilots.

Btw, does VistaJet do fleet transfers from within the company?

hey,

i mailed HR and they were kind enough to call me last week. They could not give too much information yet as they are being swamped with applications. Assessment is fairly generic; phone call to check your motivation and competencies, technical exam (rumors say it’s about ‘your current type’), interview and sim.

when I got the phone call they said it will take a few weeks once applied. You can check your status of your application on the career page. Every update triggers an email to you.

[what next]

The issue in Germany is that almost anyone can go for a CPL/IFR/ATPL, once you are able to count to 3... Competition is really fierce and on top of it you are considered a "rich man" if you make more than 50k EUR per year - before tax.

And how would that be different in any other European country? Or even non-European?

[TRENDMAN]

Anyone with some more intel?
Rumour a few post up suggest they need 40 pilots.

Btw, does VistaJet do fleet transfers from within the company?

There is seniority and career opportunities. Fleet changes, upgrade to captain with minimum required hours, possibility to become TRI,TRE...not everything is just money. And money in VJ is not that bad. You can live where you want and pick the gateway that suits you best. VJ never stopped growing and now is getting beautiful momentum. FOMO? apply

[dcoded]

There is seniority and career opportunities. Fleet changes, upgrade to captain with minimum required hours, possibility to become TRI,TRE...not everything is just money. And money in VJ is not that bad. You can live where you want and pick the gateway that suits you best. VJ never stopped growing and now is getting beautiful momentum. FOMO? apply

Thanks I already applied.
The momentum, is it just form the Globals and XLS's added?
Or anything else going on behind the scenes?

[dirk85]

One thing nobody ever understood is the profitability of the company.
A lot of announcements are made on a regular basis, with their formidable PR machine, mentioning growing revenues and increasing flight hours, but never ever a mention of that insignificant detail that are costs and the actual profits made since the company was created.
Many consider the business model unsustainable, with new, shiny and expensive jets on what must be eye-watering leases.
But we are only pilots, right?

[MostAnnoying]

One thing nobody ever understood is the profitability of the company.
A lot of announcements are made on a regular basis, with their formidable PR machine, mentioning growing revenues and increasing flight hours, but never ever a mention of that insignificant detail that are costs and the actual profits made since the company was created.
Many consider the business model unsustainable, with new, shiny and expensive jets on what must be eye-watering leases.
But we are only pilots, right?

https://uk.globaldatabase.com/company/vistajet-international-limited
Just to give you an overview...

[Klimax]

There is seniority and career opportunities. Fleet changes, upgrade to captain with minimum required hours, possibility to become TRI,TRE...not everything is just money. And money in VJ is not that bad. You can live where you want and pick the gateway that suits you best. VJ never stopped growing and now is getting beautiful momentum. FOMO? apply

Totally true. You just got to adjust your life style accordingly and make the ends meet. It's not like the remuneration numbers at VistaJet are unlivable, they are just a far cry from what you get paid at other operations on the same size airframe - the keyword is substandard on this matter. Personal progression and professional challenges (positive ones!) all add to the balance sheet, not just cash, but unfortunately you don't build brick houses with those.

[Klimax]

One thing nobody ever understood is the profitability of the company.
A lot of announcements are made on a regular basis, with their formidable PR machine, mentioning growing revenues and increasing flight hours, but never ever a mention of that insignificant detail that are costs and the actual profits made since the company was created.
Many consider the business model unsustainable, with new, shiny and expensive jets on what must be eye-watering leases.
But we are only pilots, right?

Observes have had focus on this for years - yet nothing has happened. VistaJet has not unfolded yet. :-)

[dirk85]

And I hope they never do. But everyone in the business as you point out has had doubts about the company.

[TinFoilhat2]

Personally I would avoid these guys like the plague. If you are young and need some jet time, sure go ahead especially if you are single with no real responsibilities like a family. Get your time and move on. Other than that avoid unless its all you can get and you do have a family to support etc...then move on when able.

[dcoded]

Have anyone received any Status updates on your application so far?
Mine is till on "Received Submission"

[MostAnnoying]

Have anyone received any Status updates on your application so far?
Mine is till on "Received Submission"

when did you apply?

mine is ‘under review’

[CloudChopper95]

Have anyone received any Status updates on your application so far?
Mine is till on "Received Submission"
Mine is "received submission" aswell.

[dcoded]

when did you apply?

mine is ‘under review’

On the 27th Feb.
Did you have to re-apply since you were accepted since pre-covid?
And when did you status change to "under review"?

Btw, what's you experience?

[MostAnnoying]

On the 27th Feb.
Did you have to re-apply since you were accepted since pre-covid?
And when did you status change to "under review"?

Btw, what's you experience?
Mine is ex business on the 850 and now ex Legacy carrier.

yes. I contacted HR as soon as I saw the application online to ask if I had to apply again. So yes, I did.

I applied on 27th of feb and changed to under review on 03/03

I have 2000 hours on the B737

[CloudChopper95]

yes. I contacted HR as soon as I saw the application online to ask if I had to apply again. So yes, I did.

I applied on 27th of feb and changed to under review on 03/03

I have 2000 hours on the B737

Hi mate, was it a full re submit or did you just update your profile?

[dcoded]

yes. I contacted HR as soon as I saw the application online to ask if I had to apply again. So yes, I did.

I applied on 27th of feb and changed to under review on 03/03

I have 2000 hours on the B737

Thanks for the info! Good luck and keep us posted!

[MostAnnoying]

Hi mate, was it a full re submit or did you just update your profile?

Well, I had to re submit the application but had to update my license and medical anyway. Did however write a new application letter and update my CV. So in effect, really just an entire new application 😂

[CloudChopper95]

Well, I had to re submit the application but had to update my license and medical anyway. Did however write a new application letter and update my CV. So in effect, really just an entire new application 😂
Haha fair enough! Where abouts you based at the mo?

[MostAnnoying]

Haha fair enough! Where abouts you based at the mo?

In the UK, so hope to be back flying in a few weeks. Living in Austria so the job with VJ would come in fantastic

[TheFatViking]

I had one application in since last year for the open application for experienced aviation candidate and it’s been under review since 9/2020 😂 The other applications are still just received submission. Good luck to everyone. 2600 hours on B73&B78.

[Setting]

... and how much are they charging for it?.... (The Global can be an expensive rating... )
Under which country's legislation are these lawyers chasing the employees who left early ?

Cannot remember but the cost of a type rating for one of these aircrafts, between 40 000 - 60 000 USD depending on type.

I don't know under which legislation but they are not short of resources.

[Setting]

One thing nobody ever understood is the profitability of the company.
A lot of announcements are made on a regular basis, with their formidable PR machine, mentioning growing revenues and increasing flight hours, but never ever a mention of that insignificant detail that are costs and the actual profits made since the company was created.
Many consider the business model unsustainable, with new, shiny and expensive jets on what must be eye-watering leases.
But we are only pilots, right?

Correct, never any words about profits, only growth. You also have to consider they bought all their jets at the last financial crisis. There is no way they paid full price for all the aircrafts they bought back then. That is their secret weapon. The problem will be next time they have to buy new aircrafts. Many of their aircrafts are not so young anymore. Some approaching 10 years. Question is for how long they can use them? 5 years? 10 years? This type of jets are not made to fly like an airline.