What is the plan?

[cpapilot81]

Simple question.

For all the no voters, what is the plan once this is turned down?

We now know how much progress has been made since we turned down TA16.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

at this point we just keep doing what we are doing, dont answer your phone, dont go in to training. The company needs us onside more than ever, why do you think they dangled the carrot of bases and giving 13th month, they need us to sign this deal. If we give this a massive NO the company wont have much choice but to come back to the table. Don't freak out now, just hold the line. based off your username and pprune join date im guessing you have not been around too long, dont be short sighted looking at upgrade times. Think about your whole career

[cpapilot81]

Firstly, thank you for a decent response without resorting to the normal attack which makes us worse than management.

Upgrade times won’t affect me but yes I joined after 2008 and in TA16 everyone said hold your ground and yet nothing has happened. More pressure should have been put on and if we vote this down without adding pressure they will just sit back and wait for us to come to the table again, most likely resulting in probably another step down.

The fact is it’s still better than all of us after 2008 joined on so it’s still a step up.

If we had a clear direction then maybe we can get a 100% no showing that we have had enough but if it’s 49% again we won’t achieve anything.

This is why I ask the question of what is the plan and have started this thread so maybe we can have a constructive conversation about what we want our union to do for us.

[Oasis]

The only reason they are talking to us is because of the training ban and contract compliance.
If we agree to lift those, it better be a good offer, because we will never get them back to the table when we are profitable without contract compliance.
1% and the new hkpa is simply not good enough, looking at how long we’ve been negotiating and considering the cabin crew just got 3%.
Inflation is the silent killer of your financial plans.

What we we shall we do next?
Time is on our side, Cathay will soon be profitable again, pilots are leaving in unprecedented numbers and they want to expand.
Let them sweat.

If you want to make this place you future, you have to think long term, and vote no, if you are going to go someplace else vote no because you will vote no with you feet anyway.
I hope no one will be a jerk and just grab a few thousand for hkpa till you leave and leave the rest of us with the mess.

[cpapilot81]

Oasis don’t get me wrong. This is not a vote yes campaign.

Are there actually enough captains/fo’s leaving to make a dent? I’m yet to fly with anyone who is actually leaving other than some SO’s and with SO’s joining weekly it has little effect.

Lets provide some factual numbers of people that have left in the last 6 months and those who have given notice for the next 3 months? That might provide some grit to get a stronger no vote.

I also dont see the issue with the aoa providing us with info on what payrise they are asking for so the membership can decide if it’s acceptable and realistically achievable?

[Oasis]

Everybody is hiring, Qantas, air Canada, Klm, ba, virgin, you name it. Two days ago I flew with someone leaving in the next few months.(not on cx radar yet), and there are many more.
Sure, they say it is ‘budgeted for’, but what else are they going to say? It would only undermine their position.
Everything is cut cut cut right now, but that is the flavour of the week.
What we don’t want is remove the only ‘stick’ we have in negotiations, unless it is something we can live with, long term.
Don’t forget than the only reason we are negotiating is that we have a training ban and cc.
What will have them negotiate with us, when we’re making profits again? Nothing...

[cpapilot81]

While I agree everyone is hiring they have been for years and we have been beating the everyone is leaving drum all year but no actual figures out there.
Someone leaving in a few months that hasn’t given notice isn’t someone leaving sorry because plenty have been saying it and taken no action.
Mostly people don’t take action because when they see the contract at their employer of choice they decide they can’t live on that.

If it were really hurting them already surely we would have gotten closer to asking price?

Mainly it’s still better conditions and no cuts from what we all joined on so how many more years do we negotiate and get no where?

[Roy De Kantzow]

I can guarantee there are PLENTY actually leaving with in the next few days!

However, relying on others leaving is not the solution to the CX pilots problem.

[petrichor]

A good thread CPA81, well done for providing an alternative viewpoint. Personally, I feel that the strategy of "more of the same" ieo a NO vote is indicative of the lack of foresight and initiative we have as a union, both from a leadership and membership point. We did CC many years ago and yet we decided to use exactly the same tactics??!!! Beggars belief really. CC should always have been a "guerrilla style" warfare if it was going to be effective at all but we didn't and now we delude ourselves that it hurts the company more than us. The TB hurts us more than them because they have shown that they don't give a **** how poorly this company performs seeing as they operate to the same old Swire playbook - which is a failure in the modern age. So missing out on expansion is annoying for them but they are prepared to live with it as much as possible because no one up there on the 9th floor is really accountable for poor management decisions/strategy.

So what to do? It's a tough one. My personal belief after almost a quarter of a century here is that they are hoping to get the cheapest deal in return for harmony because they want to try to expand stress-free. HOWEVER, my gut feel is that if they don't get that deal signed, they are going to force through whatever spiny pineapple they are looking to achieve in the next few years anyway because they have found a way around the TB already. They just want a peaceful end to the TB rather than a messy "implemented" one.

This is HK and despite all that has been said, I really don't agree with the common viewpoint that upping IA is going to help us in any way (my opinion only and a minority one on these forums) because it is an employers' economy. Look around you, if you are a LEP cadet then I don't need to ask you to do that because you will already be aware of what working in HK is really all about.

What the company do to us and how they go about it is completely immoral and I hate them for that. But the reality is that unless you really are in a position to leave or are really prepared to lose your job over this by upping IA, then I would say that this has some slight improvements that as a local or new pilot, are probably worth accepting. There used to be a philosophy in negotiating - "take what you can and move on". By slightly upping the benchmark you start from a higher position when the next negs come around. We in the AOA seem to have lost that philosophy entirely and instead gone for the "all or nothing" route. As you pointed out - where has that got us exactly, because I haven't really seen any major improvements since CoS'99.

I'm not saying this is a good deal - it's not. What I am saying is that it's time to stop playing the mind-numbing "same old same old" game and perhaps take this and move on?

[RAT Management]

Take this and move on? You would have to be a bigger fool than you appear to be. 1% is a joke. Hkpa is a joke, it doesn't even address for a moment the cost of living in Hong Kong. Everything else is half arsed.

We have had nothing for over 4 years. I agree with the majority, don't sell out when the market is at an all time low for a bargain basement price. The market is at a turning point and to sell out now would be foolish. So hold the line and wait for market forces coupled with our own pressure to present a much better deal closer to what we deserve.

Afterall we have nothing to lose by holding our position if we look at the long term prospects of our career.

[VR-HFX]

Quit the AOA and join the FAU as an associate. At least you will get some self-respect back:D

[Roy De Kantzow]

I don't understand why the FAU negs take 2 weeks and ours about 4 years?

[cpapilot81]

Rat. If the first thing you can do is result to name calling that says a lot about us. This is why people can’t have a proper discussion on the aoa forums or in the cockpit.

Just because someone has has a different opinion doesn’t mean they are wrong or a fool.

A lot of people do have something to loose by saying no, just like last time. Let’s be constructive and make a movement to get a better deal rather than hold our course of doing nothing if that’s what you want.

The training ban isn’t hurting anyone but the pilots at this stage and for the past 4 years so is it the most effective method?

What is it we want and is it actually realistic, that is a big question here?

How many pilot groups have negotiated themselves out of a job in history? Do we want to do that?

[petrichor]

RAT

"We have had nothing for over 4 years"...................Precisely my point..actually it's been a lot longer than that since we've had anything substantive! But we will turn anything down in favour of the utopian deal in the meantime...like I said, we have gone down the route of "all or nothing" and guess what we have achieved in recent years......:confused:

[DessertRat]

cpapilot81

you ask for actual numbers of pilots leaving as if it isn’t really happening. Read the AOA forum titled “Unofficial Survey - Resignation/Job Hunting”

Actual names with actual resignation dates. And it’s not everyone that has resigned by a long chalk.

[cpapilot81]

There are reasons to vote yes.

Arapa until 2028
Hkpa increase now and in 3 years
better RP’s

If the company then decides to do something so bad what is the harm in going into industrial action and loosing it anyway? We don’t have it now. That would be my answer and suggestion to the “clause 7”

Lets say this vote goes through but we still don’t have the pay rise we want? No industrial action is needed to not go into training or answer your phone so nothing has to change. The aoa can actively suggest people join training but it doesn’t mean anyone has to.

I have already said it but I’ll say it again, this is not a vote yes campaign but a discussion on what is next because we haven’t had a clear direction for a long time and personally I don’t think what we are doing is working.

Getting emotional and targeting your fellow pilots doesn’t help.

[westcoastcaptain]

Certainly an interesting read and I think a very legitimate question has been asked. What in fact is the plan?

Everyone wants a solution but of course wants someone else to facilitate it. Ironically, experience has shown that those demanding something be done the loudest are the same ones who are the first to fold and sign. No, pilots are not leaving in droves as is believed and a survey suggesting many are looking around is completely irrelevant and without any merit. The training ban is solely an irritant and is probably hurting the career prospects of the pilots more than the company itself. What is the point of CC when many are working on G days.

The options are rather quite simple and straightforward. It’s time to either crap or get off the pot. Sign and move on. Or, say No and take a formal vote to walk out and bring this all to a resolution. Yes it will be painful and many could end up on the losing end. But at least there will a resolution.

[mngmt mole]

The following sum up the different aspects of the "deal":

Umbrella agreement — completely 1 sided
ARAP agreement — concession
HKPA — not even at TA16 (and less than COS18)
Pay — not completed
RPs — marginal at best
D&Gs — not completed
JCR — not completed/ reneged
Seniority fleet xfer — not completed

The overriding tone of the proposal is a desperate need for the company to get rid of the training ban. Ask yourselves why they are so intent on attaining that accomplishment. That aspect of our strategy has helped grind this company to a halt (no increase in size in years). Further, it is now a huge impediment to not only growing the airline, but even allowing them to keep the airline at these static levels, as much of the withering training capacity is being used to simply train new replacements for those that are resigning (and many, many are resigning). Why on earth would we now throw away the one strategy that our management are desperate to see eliminated, and not only do it voluntarily, but in exchange for virtually nothing (see above points). More damaging, we would be doing so just as the company starts to reap big profits (as the worlds worst ever fuel hedge comes off the books). CX is attempting to push one last great bluff past us, and in doing so, make utter fools of us, and at the same time effectively destroy the AOA. We will be seen as the laughing stocks of the industry, as we would deserve to be if we vote yes for this. CX needs the TB gone. We should not give away the only really effective strategy without achieving a proper contract in return. This proposal is a pile of steaming excrement, and an insult. It is a NO from me.

[mngmt mole]

What is the difference between voting YES or NO? A YES vote will gain you nothing, as this deal effectively offers nothing. In fact, what this deal does is:

a) proves to our management we are weak and pathetic.
b) effectively destroys the AOA (well done GC...).
c) renders every pilot powerless from whatever the company wants to do for almost 10 years! (meaning: end of any real career hope).
d) allows management to reap all the rewards from the coming years of profit, and keep the pilots on the most pathetic package in the mainline airline industry.
e) condemn every single pilot in this airline to bitterness, frustration and a complete lack of hope.
f) guaranteeing we would wake up the day after a YES vote and realise you just sold yourself, your dignity and your self-worth for pennies...and pennies they will probably strip away from you again at a later date anyway (witness the past 20 years).

Simply keep the faith, keep your dignity and continue to recognise that the TB is killing them, slowly, a day at a time. We just have to sit back and wait for them to realise they can only proceed with a proper, fair and equitable agreement. Not this stinking pile of insulting sh*t.

[Airbubba]

e) condemn every single pilot in this airline to bitterness, frustration and a complete lack of hope.

As Woody Allen put it in his 1979 'Speech to the Graduates':

More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.

https://www.nytimes.com/1979/08/10/archives/my-speech-to-the-graduates.html

[plainpilot11]

Are supposed to have plans, and the deafening silence from DS with NO plan means there is no leadership. Or that the leadership is utterly corrupt. Or that the leadership is under the covers with the company. Or all of the above. This place is sickening.

[LantauWiseman]

So just how many of you lot are leaving CX? Any kind of ballpark figure? Seems like CX is going to mess you up as usually.

[FUANNA]

If this gets voted in, CX pilots will be remembered as the dumbest professional group ever.

[Natca]

So just how many of you lot are leaving CX? Any kind of ballpark figure? Seems like CX is going to mess you up as usually.

In the cricket pitch of 140 or so give or take.

[S speed]

Out of interest sake, how does Dragon compare to Cathay with all that is happening over there? I ask because I read the complaints about CX, but not much about KA? Is it all the same, or are the KA guys on different contracts?

Disclaimer: I don't live or work in HK, just a curious bystander.

[Jeju]

There are reasons to vote yes.

Arapa until 2028
Hkpa increase now and in 3 years
better RP’s

If the company then decides to do something so bad what is the harm in going into industrial action and loosing it anyway? We don’t have it now. That would be my answer and suggestion to the “clause 7”

Lets say this vote goes through but we still don’t have the pay rise we want? No industrial action is needed to not go into training or answer your phone so nothing has to change. The aoa can actively suggest people join training but it doesn’t mean anyone has to.

I have already said it but I’ll say it again, this is not a vote yes campaign but a discussion on what is next because we haven’t had a clear direction for a long time and personally I don’t think what we are doing is working.

Getting emotional and targeting your fellow pilots doesn’t help.

Better RP's and a raise in HKPA? have you even read through the whole thing man? how does this improve our rosters at all? if you actually read the thing you would know the whole thing is benefiting the company. we give so much in turn we get so little. I say if the company wants us to give up the training ban and CC then what they propose and what they offer should have a significant improvement to our lifestyle and rosters. not some pathetic increase in HKPA and "improvement" to RP's that does absolutely no change to our daily lives!

[Jeju]

Rat. If the first thing you can do is result to name calling that says a lot about us. This is why people can’t have a proper discussion on the aoa forums or in the cockpit.

Just because someone has has a different opinion doesn’t mean they are wrong or a fool.

A lot of people do have something to loose by saying no, just like last time. Let’s be constructive and make a movement to get a better deal rather than hold our course of doing nothing if that’s what you want.

The training ban isn’t hurting anyone but the pilots at this stage and for the past 4 years so is it the most effective method?

What is it we want and is it actually realistic, that is a big question here?

How many pilot groups have negotiated themselves out of a job in history? Do we want to do that?


how can you say the training ban is not hurting anyone but ourselves? everything in the proposal constantly reminds us that we must give up training and encourage captains to join training
what we realistically want is to be in a work place that can allow us to control our lifestyle and live where we want to live and not just come to work and get abused with these horrible and fatiguing CMP pairings

[mngmt mole]

Then vote “NO”. This proposal will permanently kill any hope of a proper career. Management are desperate to get rid of the TB. Ask yourselves why? Keep the pressure on. We will overcome if we stay united. Cx are the desperate ones...don’t let them turn that emphasis against us. Dont sell out your dignity.

[mngmt mole]

Oh, and to those miserable, callow, venal colleagues who have joined training recently. Burn in....

[Roy De Kantzow]

Oh, and to those miserable, callow, venal colleagues who have joined training recently. Burn in....

Yes but you know guys will still turn up for line checks, sims etc with these idiots who have joined training, and be all keen, having looked at all the paperwork, rather than having some balls and calling unfit, or better still refusing to fly with them at sign on. But no, it'll be hats on, jackets on, oo how can we reduce the fuel load. See it all the time, its disgusting.

[Inboundd]

Annual report will be released very soon.

Looking at:
1. the significant reduction in oil prices recently, with fuel being the airline's greatest expense
2. hedging losses becoming minimised
3. the second half of the year usually being more profitable than the first half
4. only a comparatively (to 2017) small loss in the first half of 2018
5. the continued expansion of eCommerce and the commensurate demand for cargo
6. Hong Kong Airlines facing financial woes

All make up for a very high chance of CX being back on the positive side of the balance sheet - unless they play some accounting tricks to manufacture a loss of course.

Will be hard for CX to cry poor when they are making truck loads of cash. So I'm inclined to sit tight and wait for all the cards to be on the table.

Aforementioned is my opinion only, and do your own research.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I find the enduring confidence of some in this forum truly remarkable.

The very same people who rejected a pay offer two years ago, after having not only achieved nothing but actually gone backwards, are still convinced they are right and victory is in sight.

Some argue the construct of the last proposal is a sign the TB and CC are working. This argument is fallacious. The question is not if the training ban or CC is hurting the company, but if it is changing the companies' behaviour. Which it has not for years now, quite the opposite actually. Not only have we seen a decline in value regarding the offered package, but new sickness rules, external training, an an even lower package for new-joiners in 2019. How one can interpret that as success is to me beyond comprehension.


Of course you always can claim victory is imminent, regardless of the facts. An indicator for this is the increasingly argument-free but purely emotional responses and the attached number of insults, in here and on the HKAOA forum. One commentator even declared to rather would want to "die standing" then to give in. Imagine that for a moment. There could not be a clearer sign that reason is lost on some.


A lot of you argue that the offer is inferior, we fought so long for it, then this would have been all for nothing etc etc. I want to be very clear: the offer is not good. I agree. But in order to decide on a yes or no vote this is irrelevant. As are previous sacrifices.They are sunk costs. The only thing that matters now is: do you believe there will be a better offer if we say no? If you do actually truly believe that, then by all means vote No. But if one would decide only in light of past sacrifices, one would act irrationally.

An immortal myth among us seems to be the imminent or already happening mass exit of pilots at Cx, combined with problems to recruit the "right" new pilots. A simple look at the seniority list will tell you this is untrue. If someone is "actively looking" is obviously irrelevant. I know this because I am "actively looking"since I started flying, and everybody who reads this has done it just the same. Additionally, again it is not the question if the company is hurt by people leaving, that may well be the case, but if it leads to change in behaviour. Which is not the case.

[Slasher1]

I find the enduring confidence of some in this forum truly remarkable.

The very same people who rejected a pay offer two years ago, after having not only achieved nothing but actually gone backwards, are still convinced they are right and victory is in sight.

Some argue the construct of the last proposal is a sign the TB and CC are working. This argument is fallacious. The question is obviously not if the training ban or CC is hurting the company, but if it is actually changing the companies' behaviour. Which it has not for years now, quite the opposite. We have seen not only a decline in value regarding the offered package, but new sickness rules, external training, an even lower package for new-joiners in 2019 etc. How to interpret that as success is to me beyond comprehension.


Of course you always can claim victory is imminent. In my opinion this is exactly what is happening. An indicator is the increasingly emotionally laden response and number of insults, here and on the HKAOA forum. One commentator even declared to rather "die standing" then to give in. Imagine that for a moment. There could not be a clearer sign that reason is lost on some.


A lot of you argue that the offer is inferior, we fought so long for it, then this would have been all for nothing etc etc. I want to be very clear: the offer is not good. I agree. But in order to decide on a yes or no vote this is totally irrelevant. As are previous sacrifices.They are sunk costs. The only thing that matters now is: do you believe there will be a better offer if we say no? If you do actually truly believe that, then by all means vote No. But if one would decide in light of past past sacrifices, one would act irrational.

An immortal myth among us seems to be the imminent or already happening mass exit of pilots at Cx, combined with problems to recruit the "right" new pilots. A simple look at the seniority list will tell you this is untrue. If someone is "actively looking" is obviously irrelevant. I know this because I do since I started flying, and everybody who reads this has done it just the same. Again, it is not the question if the company is hurt by people leaving, that may well be the case, but if it leads to change in behaviour. Which is not the case.

"You only make peace with your enemies".
Jon Snow


LOL -- no question that CX plays the long game.

Then again, so have many countries who have gotten into conflicts that have been quagmires for them and resulted in an overall loss (depending on how you choose to look at it--balance of power was a goal achieved in some of these cases so they might or might not have been losses).

IMHO, there's absolutely NO question CC and especially the TB are very much hurting--hence their priorities in the TA. They're also not getting an influx (or the ability to train what comes in quickly enough) and have chosen to contract the airline (with all of its financial lost opportunities and increased fixed costs). This particular carrier has HUGE burdens in 'spinning people up' to get qualified (compared to some other carriers) and the training process is onerous (and costly). Moreover, they haven't been getting folks they CAN spin up in through the door (a downturn might change this; unlikely except for the most desperate in that POS 18 is inferior to even many western LCC contracts--AND that's living in HKG to boot).

There's no question there's been (and will continue to be) a mass exodus -- hence the 'basings announcement' that gives glimmer of hope to the weak minded along with some non-binding numbers -- to attempt to stem the exodus without actually delivering anything (we'll see in time if there are people dumb enough to believe this).

But your point in driving THEIR behavior is well taken; perhaps they might be willing to play this type of thing until the end of time (which is a good argument to avoid the place if you're getting started in a career). Losing money, losing slots, losing the airline--perhaps these all are secondary to them saying "I'm right."

So as has been said before this is the time for industrial action (and it may well be that IA is the ONLY way to force the issue). If the union is unwilling to take IA (or if it doesn't come to pass that a competitive union is formed with enough members who WILL take IA and make a difference) things are pretty much done for no matter what happens in the future--and POS 18 will be the standard. Shoud've been obvious when POS 18 was propagated in the first place.

[plainpilot11]

Only a strike will win our respect back, and get us what we deserve. Something that our weak kneed “leaders” would never allow to happen. Imagine that.

[Roy De Kantzow]

I personally see no downside to turning this turd down.

It is lacking in so many areas, that simply saying no, and doing nothing (somthing the AOA are very good at) would be very easy to do. 1%.... you're kidding me right?!

It's not like we would be risking any big loss financially if we did!

[Roy De Kantzow]

Only a strike will win our respect back, and get us what we deserve. Something that our weak kneed “leaders” would never allow to happen. Imagine that.

What about our similarly weak kneed pilot body?!

Chance of a strike? Really? This vote will be closer than you think. Mark my words.

[bellcrank88]

If you vote yes, well that is pretty much the end of CX as a reasonable career. If you vote no, I think you need to be prepared to up the pressure not just continue with status quo. The only reason this will get voted in by any expats, imho, is people are battle weary. Vote no and go to battle, or vote yes and give up.

Can someone pm me the names of those who have broken the training ban? I am not based in HK, so not an HKAOA member if they have been named a shamed there. I would hate to think that i am giving jumpseats out to them.

[Mill Worker]

I would have thought the time to step up the IA was the day PoS18 was announced.
It is shame that the wrong guys are resigning from the GC. A vote of no confidence and declaring all positions vacant would be a better idea.

[petrichor]

And MW you’ll be the first in line to join the GC and continue the fight?

[Mill Worker]

Too late for that...

[mngmt mole]

Petrichor. It’s obvious reading your posts today that you are GC or NC. Give it up. Pathetic. You failed in your duty. Resign and regain your dignity.

[OK4Wire]

Bell: "Can someone pm me the names of those who have broken the training ban? I am not based in HK, so not an HKAOA member if they have been named a shamed there. I would hate to think that i am giving jumpseats out to them."

Based in HK or not, the AOA app will list the existing members.

[bellcrank88]

AOA app?? Not in the HKAOA.

[OK4Wire]

I'm not in the HKAOA either, but my AOA app works just fine.

[Mill Worker]

One would assume that this deal will get a resounding NO vote. Assuming that is the outcome, surely the next step (whilst maintaining the current CC/TB) is to continue to negotiate for a better deal for all. That includes getting rid of CoS18. That document is the end of CX as a long term employer and the end of the AoA (no need for any form of negotiations for those that join on it).

Priorities (in no particular order): Withdrawal of CoS18, pay, housing and getting rid of HKPA at some point in a career. Even those who arrive with literally nothing are eventually as qualified as the next guy. At what point that is may be debatable but eventually a HKPA recipient should be on a proper housing package.

[petrichor]

Mole,

You are precisely the reason we as a pilot body are starting to eat each other! You shouldn’t make assumptions because wrong assumptions made in public can make you look like an idiot. I am not on the GC. Used to be many years ago- not anymore! My dignity is intact - yours..not so but hey good for you big boy, keep slagging off anyone with something contrarian to say and continue to make the CX Pilots look like inbred morons online. We seem incapable of having any meaningful debate on any forums before it disintegrates into a tirade of personal abuse yet the other forums seem pretty civilised.
Maybe we get what we deserve?

ps, have you ever given your time to working on the GC, or do you just prefer to shout from the sidelines?

[Hiro Nakimura]

When have the company come back straight away and negotiated after a failed vote? Not a rhetorical question.

I know the union has: failed 49ers deal; failed ARAPA; failed RP07 vote. All led to a second round of voting.

I doubt there will be any re negotiation any time soon.

[RAT Management]

Hiro,

If it's not good enough as a whole or even in part you should not be voting it in period. Not only does it condemn everyone else in the process. But it also handcuffs you to a deal that was inferior to begin with, but ironically sends a message to the bosses that you are happy with the crumbs they have given. Instead send a big F you to the big brains that tabled this deal and the union reps that lubed up the pineapple in terms of a recommendation! It will be up to the company to solve the problem then or chew off the airline despite the big profits coming this year. As for the union I can only hope for change.

[Air Profit]

If we capitulate on this deal, of all the crappy deals, it WILL spell the end of the AOA, and the end of CX providing what used to be considered a "career" as a pilot. Everyone needs to reflect on the facts of the deal, not the emotions. It is inadequate on ALL levels. It deserves to be voted down. We keep CC and the TB and we let the operation continue to grind slower and slower. The management can't keep that sort of bluff going much longer. There IS a better deal out there. It's only our doubt and weariness that makes us think "why bother". I'll tell you why: it's because we (and individually, YOU) are worth more. Don't allow yourselves to throw away your value, and your dignity. This offer is a complete farce. It deserves to be thrown back in managements faces.

[petrichor]

Hiro,
I hear you...except for the 49’ers comment. My recollection is that there was no membership vote on the 49’ers’ reinstatement terms, only a vote to end the 5% levy. The 49’ers themselves decided on whether to accept the terms or not (rightly so). For those reading, this is not a cue to reignite another 49’ers discussion..;)

[unitedabx]

So here we are. Having haggled for 4 years ( whilst receiving nothing and all other employess getting small but significant pay increases ) The company using every dirty tactic in it's arsenal to undermine the negotiations and unilaterally launching a completely new pay structure from Dec 2018 without even consulting the union you now want to sign away eberything you have worked for ? In any negotiation you haggle and then you final act is to walk away. We need to walk away from this one. What will the company do ? London will tell them their bluff was called and to settle so the biggest cashcow in the Swire machine can make money again.

Walk away.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So here we are. Having haggled for 4 years ( whilst receiving nothing and all other employess getting small but significant pay increases ) The company using every dirty tactic in it's arsenal to undermine the negotiations and unilaterally launching a completely new pay structure from Dec 2018 without even consulting the union you now want to sign away eberything you have worked for ? In any negotiation you haggle and then you final act is to walk away. We need to walk away from this one. What will the company do ? London will tell them their bluff was called and to settle so the biggest cashcow in the Swire machine can make money again.

Walk away.


You forgot to mention we actually did get an offer and we walked away from it. My impression is it did not serve us well.History books are full of tragic examples of failed deals. I strongly assume Louis XVI would have accepted concessions to the commoners on his way to the guillautine, and maybe a company called Excel would not walk away again from an offer to buy Google for 750k. Everytime you "walk away" you might fall from a cliff..

[Roy De Kantzow]

The argument that you cannot comment or criticise the GC or NC unless you are actually on the GC or NC is utter nonsense!!

A fully paid member of the HKAOA has absolutely every right to be angry over what has happened. There has been a complete LACK of leadership from the President, and this has, as a whole been exceptionally poorly handled.

No member should have to 'step up' to be on the GC/NC to offer opinion on their actions. All members of the HKAOA team from the pilot body are VOLUNTEERS. No one asked them to be on the council. I'm afraid you 'live by the sword, and you die by the sword'.

You could make the same argument of politicians. Do you feel it is acceptable to criticise them when you do not agree with what they say, or would you meekly go along with whatever they want, as, hey, you're not an elected politician? Of course the pilot body has the right to criticise without being on the council!

We have to get real here guys. We have as an association failed miserably. We should all take responsibility for this, as a group of pilots, but ultimately, the Chairman and the council are responsible. I have long since felt we need professional negotiators employed full time to come up with solutions, not (albeit enthusiastic) wannabe amateur lawyers who are actually pilots!

[main_dog]

If the deal is good enough, perhaps. This one is a “turd” by even its most ardent defender’s definition. Ergo, walk away.

[badge42]

Hang on! It's been defined as 'a turd with sprinkles'. Although, they didn't go in to specifics about what the 'turd' had been sprinkled with. :confused: