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Captain Sherm
28th Dec 2018, 22:59
The Age reports:

Former prime minister Bob Hawke is reportedly confident Labor will win the upcoming federal election but doesn't think he'll be around to see it happen because of his poor health.

Gosh. Don’t know what to say!

Hydromet
28th Dec 2018, 23:05
Saw him on TV last night, and he certainly looked his age.

gordonfvckingramsay
29th Dec 2018, 00:01
Does it really matter who gets into power or how Hawkes health is going? Both parties will endulge in collusion with big business and the damage Hawke did to the industry is still being felt.

Who cares, we won’t miss the old bastard.

Capt Fathom
29th Dec 2018, 00:26
How appropriate. Hawke is 89! He may get the last laugh after all. :}

The Bullwinkle
29th Dec 2018, 03:16
Hawke Ailing

Finally some good news!

Octane
29th Dec 2018, 03:18
Why the appalling comments..?

Chocks Away
29th Dec 2018, 03:33
Octane because he's the prick who called in the National Defense Forces (& everyone else) to break a Union strike.
Never seen before! Not for a Tram Strike / Beer Strike / Wharvies Strike / Railways Strike / Bus strike... the list goes on!
I wasn't part of it but it certainly stopped my career in it's tracks.
Many "youngens" disregard History but only to their own detriment. History is important to know, all sides of it!

LeadSled
29th Dec 2018, 04:29
Octane because he's the prick who called in the National Defense Forces (& everyone else) to break a Union strike.
Never seen before! Not for a Tram Strike / Beer Strike / Wharvies Strike / Railways Strike / Bus strike... the list goes on!
I wasn't part of it but it certainly stopped my career in it's tracks.
Many "youngens" disregard History but only to their own detriment. History is important to know, all sides of it!

Chocks Away,
Not quite correct, it was a Labor government put the army in, wharfies and coal miners, in years gone buy.
'89 was not a strike, (almost) everybody in the domestics resigned. A very significant difference, it is important to stick to facts.
Tootle pip!!

gordonfvckingramsay
29th Dec 2018, 04:43
Any leader who publicly denigrates an entire profession without any idea what he's talking about deserves to be remembered as the dimwit he is. His legacy gave birth to the shambles of an industry we have today and to the dim view most people have of what we do. The appalling comments Octane are due to the residual anger from the injustices of 1989.

busdriver007
29th Dec 2018, 04:48
Twice in history was the Military called in to break a strike. During the war(1942) and 1989. Both were Labor Governments. My father was involved before going to New Guinea on 1942. He was spate at by the striking wharfies. Ironically they loaded supplies they would later use in New Guinea to fight the Japanese. Appalling behaviour during World War 2 but I personally think 1989 was the end of the Labor Party as a party for the Battlers. Both Hawke and Keating went on to live in the Eastern Suburbs in million dollar mansions. Hardly representing the downtrodden.

redned
29th Dec 2018, 05:28
I have no time for Hawke but even less time for the domestic pilots and their 30% pay grab in 89.Led by a megalomaniac who would destroy the economy and tourist industry and wreck the lives of thousands,you blokes should be ashamed.

Fantome
29th Dec 2018, 05:30
How appropriate. Hawke is 89! He may get the last laugh after all.

Oh man. . . from EFFEN Q ......how EFFEN TRUE (should it so transpire). . . .. . YOU'LL DO !

By the way, Brad Norington, who wrote the twisted, distorted one-eyed "SKY PIRATES" is now a big editorial wheel at THE AUSTRALIAN. He is in today's. (yes .. . I still buy that Murdoch rag .. . for it's better content . . .. though Captain Byron Bailey does not always qualify.)

ramble on
29th Dec 2018, 05:31
From what I hear, his grave site will be cheap to upkeep - there wont be any need to water or fertilise it..

Fantome
29th Dec 2018, 05:36
you blokes should be ashamed.

and you should go and wash your mouth out . .. for your lack of grasp of the truth . . . and your total ignorance of the evil collusion that preceded the 24th of August 1989. (You might have lost a few quid , on your blacksoil plain) but loyal men and women lost their loved ones . .. . and of that there is proof positive ....if anyone ever bothered to do the detailed research.) But Redned, reading what he has posted on this subject over the years, is well and truly in the camp of the 'untouchables' and hence does not know half of it.

rjtjrt
29th Dec 2018, 05:38
Not many Vietnam Veterans will shed a tear for Hawke. Still despised.

gordonfvckingramsay
29th Dec 2018, 06:19
you blokes should be ashamed

Of?? Victims being apologetic for hating the perpetrator, good luck with that thinking pal! :mad:

runway16
29th Dec 2018, 06:20
Ramble On,

Agreed. When the subject passes away there will be a continuous flight past of noisy aircraft over the funeral.

I wonder how many airline pilots took their lives as a result being forced out of work because of the strike and the strike breaking?

Initials ?

George Glass
29th Dec 2018, 07:00
Just for the record LeadSled, it might not have been a strike but having a lawsuit slapped on you for breach of contract required a dramatic response. The wrong one as it turned out.
I went through the whole debacle and came to the conclusion long ago that NOBODY came out of that sh#t fight with their reputations enhanced. Incompetence and blind belligerence all round.
I blame AFAP leadership as much as Hawke. Just very sad so many junior pilots, who simply doing as they were told ,suffered so much.
Taught me to trust my own judgement and be very, very careful when you entrust your future to those in "authority".

patagonianworelaud
29th Dec 2018, 09:38
From what I hear, his grave site will be cheap to upkeep - there wont be any need to water or fertilise it..

It'll be worth the airfare from Adelaide to join the queue ....................

Fantome
29th Dec 2018, 10:20
There were moderates in the AFAP, whose ability to hold confidential talks, before the law suits, with the men on the other side , from the PM down, has not been recognised or documented. The Hawke/Abeles collusion has also not been considered in any depth.

When Abeles confronted members of the AFAP in his office, his foul and abusive language, and the thug-like threats that he made, are recorded in diary entries made by some of the pilots in the forefront of the fray.

the domestic pilots and their 30% pay grab in 89. Wrong, redned . .. . . .contract negotiations of expired contracts had stalled. The AFAP executive sought a means to force the airlines to the arbitration table. It was dicks like Norington who put about the lie of 30% pay claims.

machtuk
29th Dec 2018, 10:56
I think the general feeling is that once the old silver tailed rat is buried then the hatred can start to heal! He can join his bed mate Abels! Hawke was nearly killed from a motor bike accident in his teens, imagine the change of history had he not survived to make a very ugly mark on Australia's political history!
History is now etched in stone, hopefully on his headstone!

Bend alot
29th Dec 2018, 11:48
I think the general feeling is that once the old silver tailed rat is buried then the hatred can start to heal! He can join his bed mate Abels! Hawke was nearly killed from a motor bike accident in his teens, imagine the change of history had he not survived to make a very ugly mark on Australia's political history!
History is now etched in stone, hopefully on his headstone!
And Pilot Terms and Conditions and Pay across the World today, say he was correct.

Unless Bob ruled the the World of aviation and made the rest follow.

wombat watcher
29th Dec 2018, 12:04
There were moderates in the AFAP, whose ability to hold confidential talks, before the law suits, with the men on the other side , from the PM down, has not been recognised or documented. The Hawke/Abeles collusion has also not been considered in any depth.

When Abeles confronted members of the AFAP in his office, his foul and abusive language, and the thug-like threats that he made, are recorded in diary entries made by some of the pilots in the forefront of the fray.

Wrong, redned . .. . . .contract negotiations of expired contracts had stalled. The AFAP executive sought a means to force the airlines to the arbitration table. It was dicks like Norington who put about the lie of 30% pay claims.


you are correct . It was 27%

Higs
29th Dec 2018, 13:21
I was there in 89. One of the worst mistakes of my carer signing that crap letter of resignation under intense pressure from those that should have know better. Those there will know what I'm talking about.

Fantome
29th Dec 2018, 18:21
under intense pressure from those that should have know better

It is impossible at this remove to fully understand what persuaded the AFAP executive to accept what they thought
was the very best advice from a top silk. Could anyone, with even half a brain and a crystal ball at the time, predict that the RAAF would be called in and that scores of overseas airline pilots and their own airlines would be offered lucrative contracts to fly in and be in effect strike breakers. (But, as has been pointed out time and time again,on a technicality, there was never any strike as such.)

SRFred
29th Dec 2018, 19:53
From what I hear, his grave site will be cheap to upkeep - there wont be any need to water or fertilise it..

Is that the one booked next to the lying rodents plot?

witwiw
29th Dec 2018, 20:45
Is my memory correct that the 27% included a "catch-up" component due to previous freezes on the then CPI increases over the years? (It may not have been automatic CPI increases as such like today but increases nonetheless awarded by some wages commission/authority etc - someone can elaborate on that aspect).

IIRC, if the percentage CPI increase exceeded a certain dollar figure, then any increase was capped at that figure. Over time and in real terms, this effectively meant a slow erosion of salaries for those higher incomes.

busdriver007
29th Dec 2018, 21:53
Is my memory correct that the 27% included a "catch-up" component due to previous freezes on the then CPI increases over the years? (It may not have been automatic CPI increases as such like today but increases nonetheless awarded by some wages commission/authority etc - someone can elaborate on that aspect).

IIRC, if the percentage CPI increase exceeded a certain dollar figure, then any increase was capped at that figure. Over time and in real terms, this effectively meant a slow erosion of salaries for those higher incomes.

Sounds very contemporary, except if you are a CEO!

tio540
29th Dec 2018, 22:29
Hawke did give us 17% mortgage rates, as ex airline pilots moved into caravans, and then he retired to a Sydney waterfront mansion.

cessnapete
30th Dec 2018, 01:17
Sad to see on an Aviation website such disgusting comments on the possible passing and aftermath of an ailing old person.
Eventually Australian airlines would have needed to conform to the economic reality’s of global aviation.
Insisting on a Flight Engineer on the then new technology 2 crew flight deck on Australian operated A300s perhaps, comes to mind.

George Glass
30th Dec 2018, 03:28
"It is impossible at this remove to fully understand what persuaded the AFAP executive to accept what they thought
was the very best advice from a top silk."

Legal advise is advise, rarely direction. The industrial leadership of the AFAP was well aware of the potentially catastrophic consequences of following that advice. The Pilot leadership overruled them.
Its all ancient history now but its still a salutary lesson for a younger generation in the consequences of arrogance , hubris and plain old lack of judgement by mediocre people in leadership positions. Add to that an inability to empathize with your opponents position and you have a recipe for disaster.
Hawke and Kelty did what they had to do to defend the Wages Accord, and what any competent opponent would have expected them to do.
AFAP leadership were out of their depth. Blaming Hawke or Abeles for their failure is futile.
Younger generations take note.

The Bullwinkle
30th Dec 2018, 03:33
Sad to see on an Aviation website such disgusting comments on the possible passing and aftermath of an ailing old person.

”Any Airline boss who sacks an employee for not turning up for work on the day Hawke dies is a bum!”

LeadSled
30th Dec 2018, 05:43
Just for the record LeadSled, it might not have been a strike but having a lawsuit slapped on you for breach of contract required a dramatic response. The wrong one as it turned out.
I went through the whole debacle and came to the conclusion long ago that NOBODY came out of that sh#t fight with their reputations enhanced. Incompetence and blind belligerence all round.
I blame AFAP leadership as much as Hawke. Just very sad so many junior pilots, who simply doing as they were told ,suffered so much.
Taught me to trust my own judgement and be very, very careful when you entrust your future to those in "authority".

George Glass,
I largely agree with you, but the domestic leaders had plenty of warning that they could not and would not succeed in taking Hawke head on -- and it was not just a matter of Hawke's ego.
The "wages accord" was central to Labor economic policy, no way were Hawke and Kelty going to allow airline pilots undermine that!! That was the core of the Government position.
The Chairman of the OSB warned of all that, he was (in modern terminology) no-platformed at a mass meeting of domestics in Melbourne.
As for all the "strike breakers", a strategy based on;" We are irreplaceable, the Government can'r do a, b, c and d and we will win" only required the Government to do "a, b,c and d" and you lose.
Said OSB Chairman spelled out exactly what was going to happen if the domestics continued --- he was sadly proved correct in almost every respect.
Tootle pip!!

Checklist Charlie
30th Dec 2018, 06:17
cessnapete (https://www.pprune.org/members/95137-cessnapete) Australian operated A300s methinks you mean B767's.

CC

George Glass
30th Dec 2018, 06:53
Nope, A300B4's

wombat watcher
30th Dec 2018, 08:47
George Glass,
I largely agree with you, but the domestic leaders had plenty of warning that they could not and would not succeed in taking Hawke head on -- and it was not just a matter of Hawke's ego.
The "wages accord" was central to Labor economic policy, no way were Hawke and Kelty going to allow airline pilots undermine that!! That was the core of the Government position.
The Chairman of the OSB warned of all that, he was (in modern terminology) no-platformed at a mass meeting of domestics in Melbourne.
As for all the "strike breakers", a strategy based on;" We are irreplaceable, the Government can'r do a, b, c and d and we will win" only required the Government to do "a, b,c and d" and you lose.
Said OSB Chairman spelled out exactly what was going to happen if the domestics continued --- he was sadly proved correct in almost every respect.
Tootle pip!!

leadsled,
You are correct in essence but being 1989, it was actually the incumbent President of AIPA. I was present at that meeting at the Coburg Town Hall. He explained his reasons based on both Australian and international industrial history as to why he was of the view they wouldn’t succeed and why the Qf pilots wouldn’t be joining them.

machtuk
30th Dec 2018, 09:17
The queue to pee on Bobs grave will stretch around the next corner for miles, what does that tell us? That Bob will leave a legacy that's etched deep into the ugly history of aviation that he was part of & responsible for, that cannot be denied no matter how naive some are !

Don Diego
30th Dec 2018, 09:28
This despicable grub and his mates put a pay rise for themselves through in late '88 that was larger than the famous 29.47%. The golliwog is no better.

Bend alot
30th Dec 2018, 11:33
My understanding is that at the end of the "strike" the pay rise given to the pilots was greater than that than was asked before the dispute.

But it was actually a concession on work/hours/rosters that was required to get the large pay increase for the pilots.

Give and take is required in negotiations - arrogance is not.

What is arrogance?

Many would say SLF are arrogant, others the persons that termed the phrase SLF as being the arrogant ones.

Bottom line is the front of the tube these days care less for the souls behind than in days gone past, in return they are treated the same as they treat others (to a lower standard).

That has nothing to do with Bob - just the general decline in the industry that lives of past glory.

Bend alot
30th Dec 2018, 14:08
If you want to "strike" hold the cards.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/mutiny-space-why-these-skylab-astronauts-never-flew-again-180962023/

But then accept to never fly again.

maui
31st Dec 2018, 03:32
George: Charlie is correct. The TAA A300 B4 was always a three man cockpit. OTOH the 767 was a two man enterprise that was adapted to a three by Ansett.

Others: I was never on strike, I resigned after expressing my alignment with AFAP, agreeing to do my next duty (simulator a couple of days later), was subsequently stood aside having not refused any duty. The last straw was when my compatriots started getting early morning visits, from agents of the company, with dire economic threats. I was not heavied or threatened by anyone, from AFAP, neither am I aware of any such behaviour, (First hand knowledge as I was on the desk in South Melb on that fateful evening)

I have my bottle of '89 Grange, at the ready, to mark the passing.

Maui

Fantome
31st Dec 2018, 04:44
early morning visits, from agents of the company,

ah yes . .. those TNT couriers with their midnight visits to serve the writs that inflammed the whole bloody business.

Captain Sherm
31st Dec 2018, 04:48
What Maui said. True to the letter. I have the hard copies of the documents pushed under my door in the middle of the night urging me and my colleagues back to work. So the resignation, done in cold blood and full knowledge to save my super and savings, was not a drawback to him. And his ilk. Not at all.

Thus when in Kilmore he said, to my face, that he wanted us back to work, I asked him, directly, if his government “would deal with the pilot body through their choice of negotiating body "in good faith" if the AFAP would submit itself to the Arbitration Commission”-they are my words and I remember them very clearly……he said “Yes”......no ifs and no buts.
……and then at every point the AFAP made some progress in the Commission-he, the Prime Minister, "Mr Fixit", the great negotiator, did exactly the opposite and ensured the rug was pulled out. Some might call that lying. Some might certainly say the "fix was in". They might say that, I couldn't possibly comment. How could I know what was in his heart?

He will die very rich. No doubt he saved his parliamentary salary well. Must have. Some may well mourn. Quite possibly. But for me, I will take no joy in his passing. He will be judged at a Higher Tribunal soon as we must all one day be. But Bob, as your eyes soon close for the last time on the harbour views, as you hear the clink of gold (or might it be thirty pieces of silver?) for the last time…..was it worth it mate? Was it really worth it? I guess as an Oxford man he might echo fellow Oxonian Robert Southey’s famous words.

"Why that I cannot tell," said he,
"But 'twas a famous victory."

Famous indeed. If he was genuinely doing his best to get the industry on a stable footing for deregulation then he failed absolutely spectacularly. Blew billions rather than talking and killed 4 airlines. Fighting to someone else's tune and someone else last dollar. All rather than talk. Hawke’s last breath will undo nought of what he did and what he let happen.

I suspect, that to save ink and time, the obituary writers will do as I have done and cut and paste words from a great writer to tell their tale. Maybe they’ll go to Macbeth for inspiration and simply say……

“ Nothing in his life became him like the leaving it”

Sui Generis

blueys
31st Dec 2018, 05:05
I got one still have it somewhere

machtuk
31st Dec 2018, 07:49
A few years ago before I gave away bus driving I flew with an American skipper who was a terrific bloke ex USAF he came out in '89 after he looked into a pretty attractive job offer here in Oz, good pay, lots of Co support and the Govt would grease the wheels for his whole family to come out, he took up the offer and stayed till he retired about 4 years ago and went back to Orange County to see out his days. The thing is he was told initially that there was a shortage of pilots as there was some disputes going on, he had no idea till he got here just how ugly it was, suicides, huge emotional dramas, Govt corruption at its best all thanks to the Rat Pack (3 grubs) of which old BH was the most cunning. Once he's buried the whole shitty mess can be put where it belongs, in Australia's ugly aviation past!!

airdualbleedfault
31st Dec 2018, 07:54
Cessnapete you sound like management and or one of the entitiled generation, do you have the remotest idea how much Qantas pay their pilots and how much profit they make?

Bend alot
31st Dec 2018, 09:03
Cessnapete you sound like management and or one of the entitiled generation, do you have the remotest idea how much Qantas pay their pilots and how much profit they make?


You can find the basics of pay for pilots online - it is above the average wage for sure, and similar to say a doctor (as per hours worked) in many cases.

Now Qantas and profits - lets take a look at that over say 10 years.

Not a lot of profit there, but what is worse is the decline in actual real assets - basically the aircraft are 10 years older and the cash that was in the bank to replace them is gone.

That is not any of the pilots fault nor the governments, The little fellow takes a fair bit of blame for that but also it is a change in trends that include fuel prices and airport costs and low cost options.

Fantome
31st Dec 2018, 09:48
machtuk - your obvious affection for RJL Hawke M.P. , puts me in mind of John Clarke's excellent satires contained in 'The Complete Book of Australian Verse'. Anybody with a cynical, satirical mind should have a copy - or the sequel 'The Even More Complete Book of Australian Verse'. Here Clarke is using AA Milne for his send up of Hawke -

Obviousness

Rob Rob Bobbity Bobbity James Lee Hawke M.P.
Took great care of his image because he was quick to see
That if you are photographed standing with blokes
Whose boats do well on the sea,
Millions of voters will fail to notice
The blokes will be charging a fee.

George Glass
31st Dec 2018, 15:39
Maui, I was simply making the point that Australian never flew B767s. I am aware that the dispute over engineers was on Ansett B767s.
For the record, I was on course during the dispute and was contacted by chain phone call by a Senior Check Captain and advised that we were all resigning.
When I questioned the sanity of that proposition he simply said I would never complete my training if I didnt comply.
Thats a threat to my way of thinking.
Why pilots involved in that debacle continue to take the event personally and not realize the strategic imperative that drove the government and ACTU is a mystery.
There was no way that the government was ever going to let 1600 airline pilots destroy an Accord that had been their principal policy tool since 1983.
Its that simple.
Will Hawke go to his grave thinking it was worth it?
Absolutely yes.

Fantome
31st Dec 2018, 18:41
aahhh . .. . George . .. . you obviously did not lose a loved one. (And you appear to be discounting or ignoring the multiple ill effects of unresolved stress. You also seem to hold Hawke in some esteem. I think your view is simplistic . (You say as much). It reminds me of the blind faith and "he's really not a bad bloke, deep down" that many Queenslanders held in Joh, come-what-may. )

john_tullamarine
31st Dec 2018, 23:12
One wonders whether the union strategy and tactics may have varied a little by dint of popular pressure .... had all the pilot players the benefit of a general communications facility such as PPRuNe back at that time ?

A dreadful episode all round and, as a poster suggested earlier, probably no-one really came out a winner. One can only hope that the Industry never again has to weather such a storm.

Captain Dart
1st Jan 2019, 01:06
The Hawke Labor government also did untold damage to Australia's Fleet Air Arm prior to the Dispute. Grumman Trackers parked and left to rot in the open at Nowra for decades. The very capable Skyhawks given to New Zealand (then rented back later with RNZAF crews due to the capability gap). Nowra's economy took a huge hit.

After being involved in both these events, I find it difficult not to feel some sense of closure at this man's forthcoming demise.

busdriver007
1st Jan 2019, 01:34
During the recent fracas with AIPA when Geoff Dixon was CEO he approached Greg Combet with the words "will you step aside while we take on the pilots, it will be over in three days, it will be quicker than 89!". Greg said no because AIPA was affiliated with the ACTU. Maybe if that had been the case in 89 the outcome could have been different. As I said before Hawke began the corruption of the Labor party which continues today.

blow.n.gasket
1st Jan 2019, 03:45
[QUOTE=busdriver007;10348473]During the recent fracas with AIPA when Geoff Dixon was CEO he approached Greg Combet with the words "will you step aside while we take on the pilots, it will be over in three days, it will be quicker than 89!". Greg said no because AIPA was affiliated with the ACTU. Maybe if that had been the case in 89 the outcome could have been different. As I said before Hawke began the corruption of the Labor party which continues today.[/QUOTE



I believe the AIPA pilots can thank a very astute gentleman with the initials of “BW “ for doing the legwork to get that affiliation up and running.

No easy task convincing quite a few CoM members of the tactical advantages associated with such an affiliation , I was told!

bazza stub
2nd Jan 2019, 04:56
So usually someone who has “served their country” like he woukd claim to have done is offered a state funeral. I would hate to think that he will be (once again) robing the nations tax payers.

#nostatefuneralforbob

machtuk
2nd Jan 2019, 05:08
So usually someone who has “served their country” like he woukd claim to have done is offered a state funeral. I would hate to think that he will be (once again) robing the nations tax payers.

#nostatefuneralforbob

Sadly our corrupt Govt will no doubt offer BH a state funeral, that will be the ultimate insult to the families that lost loves one thru suicide & had their lives destroyed whilst Bob went on to be a hero in many eyes. At least when the grubby media have wonderful Bob's face plastered all over the front pages it will signal that he no longer can harm anyone, it will have been an era of Australian corruption that we have not seen since !

redned
2nd Jan 2019, 05:53
You blokes can sure wallow in it.Have you ever thought of the lives destroyed because of the actions of the pilots?The ones that had tourist businesses in the north and in places like Tasmania.Went broke,lost the lot when the planes didnt arrive.A few suicides there i bet.According to Brad Norrington who wrote Sky Pirates you bought all upon yourselves.As someone said elsewhere Hawke wasnt going to have a wage breakout and the accord destroyed by a bunch of pilots.Wake up to yourselves and face facts.

George Glass
2nd Jan 2019, 06:18
Fantome, I'm saying now what I said to McCarthy and Raby to their faces at the time.
I was off work for a year and almost bankrupted.
I'll say it again. AFAP leadership was out of their depth.
What happened was primarily their responsibility.
The only reason to keep banging on about it 30 years later is that it still stands as an example of how NOT to run an industrial campaign.
Anybody who derives satisfaction from the passing of Hawke is a sad individual.

Mach E Avelli
2nd Jan 2019, 09:42
To those who would dance on Hawke’s grave, two questions. Which Prime Minister, President or Benevolent Dictator, in a non communist country and in the same situation, would have done differently? What would they have done? Rolling over not an acceptable answer.
While no fan of Hawke or the Labor Party, I believe that he deserves some respect. He will go down in history as one deeply flawed individual, who nevertheless achieved a lot. Certainly head and shoulders above most Labor leaders.

gordonfvckingramsay
2nd Jan 2019, 21:22
in the same situation, would have done differently? What would they have done? Rolling over not an acceptable answer.

And what good did his actions achieve? Probably every leader you described would have acted similarly, it still doesn’t make it right and still doesn’t mean he was a good leader or human being for that matter; it’s a pointless comparison. He had a choice to compromise and chose not to, with fatal consequences. Bobs entire legacy consists of the initiation of the slow demise of aviation in Australia, he can rot for it.

ramble on
2nd Jan 2019, 22:38
The beauty of our wonderful democracy is that we are all entitled to an opinion. And I am going to have a quite celebration when Brick Top is dead.

machtuk
2nd Jan 2019, 22:54
The beauty of our wonderful democracy is that we are all entitled to an opinion. And I am going to have a quite celebration when Brick Top is dead.

That about sums it up, everyone is entitled to either mourn his passing or dance in the streets with glee for a democracy allows that & there's nothing the BH lovers can do about it, that's the part I love!:-)

SRM
2nd Jan 2019, 23:01
For the record the AN 767-200 aircraft where originally ordered for delivery in 1982 with a 3 man hard wired cockpit
The first crews where trained by Boeing in the B767-200 hare wired simulator.
Due to a downturn in traffic the aircraft were not delivered until 1983, during intervening period the Presidential Enquiry into crew complement took place ,probably due to the Airbus A300 being certified with 2 crew.
The outcome of the equiry paved the way for Boeing to certify the 757 with 2 crew and subsequent recertification of the 767-200 with 2 crew.

Dark Knight
3rd Jan 2019, 00:54
You blokes can sure wallow in it.Have you ever thought of the lives destroyed because of the actions of the pilots?The ones that had tourist businesses in the north and in places like Tasmania.Went broke,lost the lot when the planes didnt arrive.A few suicides there i bet.According to Brad Norrington who wrote Sky Pirates you bought all upon yourselves.As someone said elsewhere Hawke wasnt going to have a wage breakout and the accord destroyed by a bunch of pilots.Wake up to yourselves and face facts.

The reality was `The Accord’ had passed its use by date with all unions including the ACTU against it continuing.
The prognosis made then for salaries and working conditions for flight crew has certainly become a reality.

A Hierarchical Salary study of pilot salaries conducted today, as in 1966, would establish pilot salaries are at least 50% lower than they should be.

Fatigue is currently on the lips of every pilot, every day: pilots pay for their own meals, car parking, uniforms, etc., company loyalty is a thing of the past with control of what may passably be called family lifestyle is totally within the company’s hands.

When next the SLF flies perhaps they should remember the sage words of John Glenn sitting atop a Mercury rocket:

“How you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of 2 million parts — all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract.”

Baxter Dewall
3rd Jan 2019, 09:01
The reality was `The Accord’ had passed its use by date with all unions including the ACTU against it continuing.
The prognosis made then for salaries and working conditions for flight crew has certainly become a reality.

A Hierarchical Salary study of pilot salaries conducted today, as in 1966, would establish pilot salaries are at least 50% lower than they should be.

Fatigue is currently on the lips of every pilot, every day: pilots pay for their own meals, car parking, uniforms, etc., company loyalty is a thing of the past with control of what may passably be called family lifestyle is totally within the company’s hands.

When next the SLF flies perhaps they should remember the sage words of John Glenn sitting atop a Mercury rocket:

“How you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of 2 million parts — all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract.”


Seriously! DK, are you comparing what pilots do in modern jet transport, with John Glenn "sitting atop a Mercury rocket"?

The pilots I fly with don't pay for their own meals, car parking, uniforms etc. I must have missed that part when I was reading a copy of the collective agreement. And those groups that have foregone all of the above in order to sell their souls, well more fools them!

Modern aircraft have NEVER been easier to manage or handle; hell they just about do everything for you except wash your dishes! Don't kid yourself it's a hard gig, it's not. Nothing could be further from the truth. That "Austronaut" syndrome is just that!

Regarding fatigue, yes it's an issue across all industries, not just confined to aviation. Globalisation plays a big part in all of this. In Australia we must be competitive if we're to survive. Unfortunately the average punter will always vote with their wallets, so will always be on the lookout for $59 airfares. The rise of the LCC has allowed those folk who would never previously have been able to fly from A to B to do so. But it comes at a price! Maintenance on demand, cheaper labour costs, less support, more onerous rostering ie more productivity etc. the list in not exhaustive.

And whilst on the subject of fatigue, I'm sick of hearing how people say they've been working like drovers dogs and always tired, yet these same people are the first to tell me how they've been working on RDOs. Give me a break, what hypocrites.

It's a new world, I was around in '89, but consequentially had my career stopped in its tracks in GA. However, as difficult as it may be for many of those to accept, move on because nobody else since cares one iota! Yesterday's news!

International Trader
3rd Jan 2019, 09:07
I recall that the 27 or 29% was an ambit claim. A train driver that I knew at the time told me that the pilots were stupid putting such a low ambit claim. The train drivers always asked for 100% (with union and ACTU backing ) and he said that they always came out smiling. Perhaps it was because they were "Labour types". Hawke came from the ACTU, didn't he?

theheadmaster
3rd Jan 2019, 09:13
There is obviously still much emotion attached to 1989. However, those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat the mistakes of the past. Essentially, the AFAP declared war and then found that the other side did not react the way they had anticipated they would. Roll forward to the present and you have AFAP declaring war on AIPA with the one pilot union aspirations and rogue negotiators negotiating the Jetstar EBA. Just like 1989, I don’t think that either of these are going to work out the way the AFAP expect.

tail wheel
4th Jan 2019, 03:31
The subject has been adequately debated for all perspectives to have been presented.

Thanks to all those that participated.