View Full Version : HK Employment Ordinance
curiousflyer
27th Dec 2018, 02:28
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x648/6f6156d2_0d1e_4b1f_acab_482230e07b5c_088a866c2716198146d46b1 39dae121f3424c464.jpeg
Backupnav
27th Dec 2018, 04:21
Thank you, CF. But spineless pilots do not want to do that, they prefer wearing red lanyards. Because that is how real men go to war.
Also, on the subject of the EO : how many decades will it take to have an understanding of a very simple rule such as the one day off in 7? This alone shows how broken the system is and how useless the union and their lawyers are.
petrichor
27th Dec 2018, 05:24
meaningless. Please take a history lesson or read the 49'ers book by John Warham.
curiousflyer
27th Dec 2018, 12:59
There is a rumour often spread on the flight deck and over beers that 'striking is illegal in Hong Kong'. It is not. This should be shared. Especially given the steaming pile of dung that I just received in my inbox.
It's time to escalate.
curiousflyer
27th Dec 2018, 13:10
meaningless. Please take a history lesson or read the 49'ers book by John Warham.
I have read this book and also the follow up. In the end, it was proven in court that Cathay Pacific broke the law and the 49'ers won their case. The 49'ers fought hard and I thank them for that, as now the airline will really have to think carefully before playing that card again. It's purpose was to intimidate and inject fear, and this has definitely has worked.
Also, in the first book John explained that whilst CX offered a ****e deal to see if it was accepted, they also had a 'just give the pilots what they want if they say no' deal pre-prepared in the event that it was voted down. Perhaps another lesson for CX pilots.
There is a rumour often spread on the flight deck and over beers that 'striking is illegal in Hong Kong'. It is not. This should be shared. Especially given the steaming pile of dung that I just received in my inbox.
It's time to escalate.
To further the above, the below is a direct quote from the basic law (ie the constitution of HK)
Article 27
Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of speech, of the press and of publication; freedom of association, of assembly, of procession and of demonstration; and the right and freedom to form and join trade unions, and to strike.
I know the first few parts of this article are pretty much down the drain, but chinese politics aside, it is not illegal to strike
https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/chapter_3.html
Liam Gallagher
27th Dec 2018, 15:08
It's not illegal to go sick either :). If you get my drift.
Kitsune
27th Dec 2018, 17:55
It's not illegal to go sick either :). If you get my drift.
Jesus Liam, Just grow a pair or STFU...
cxorcist
27th Dec 2018, 22:29
It's not illegal to go sick either :). If you get my drift.
Based crews should be storing up their sick time just in case HK pilots decide to grow a pair. Wouldn’t want them to get caught out participating in an illegal industrial action.
quadspeed
28th Dec 2018, 21:39
No, it's not illegal to strike.
But not showing up for work is legal cause for termination.
And the one doesn't protect you from the other.
If you're going to strike, make sure it's on your G day.
curiousflyer
28th Dec 2018, 23:06
No, it's not illegal to strike.
But not showing up for work is legal cause for termination.
And the one doesn't protect you from the other.
If you're going to strike, make sure it's on your G day.
Quadspeed, could you direct me to where this is in ordinance please. I've had a quick look and can't see it but I might be looking for the wrong wording.
petrichor
29th Dec 2018, 04:03
Curious,
the “5 valid reasons for dismissal” on your original post nos 1 and 5. They could easily apply either of those 2 and you would then need to start a lengthy and expensive case against them to prove otherwise.As you correctly state, they will have learned from the 49er debacle and would chose different reasons to intimidate/fire anyone along the same lines, however it took us years (think about that) to get their jobs back and those that didn’t accept still got a **** financial deal in court, basically providing proof to all employers in HK that they can still act with “relative” impugnity. I say that because how many of those on the star chamber actually lost their jobs or ended up in jail?
AnAmusedReader
29th Dec 2018, 04:18
how many decades will it take to have an understanding of a very simple rule such as the one day off in 7?
This was tested a few years ago and the answer from the government was that you can have day 1 off and day 14 off and you have had your one day off in the two blocks of 7 days; thus you can legally work for 12 consecutive days off! Ridiculous.
curiousflyer
29th Dec 2018, 05:39
The main reason for posting this thread was to dispel the myth spread at work that 'striking is illegal'. This is obviously a rumour which is beneficial to the company as many people seem to believe this is be the law in Hong Kong. It irritates me that they get this myth perpetuated. It is not that law. The law says HK EO states:
"The fact that an employee takes part in a strike does not entitle his employer to terminate under subsection (1) the employee’s contract of employment."
and Article 27 states:
"Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of speech, of the press and of publication; freedom of association, of assembly, of procession and of demonstration; and the right and freedom to form and join trade unions, and to strike."
To reinterate it is not illegal to for employees to go on strike in Hong Kong.
the “5 valid reasons for dismissal” on your original post nos 1 and 5. They could easily apply either of those 2 and you would then need to start a lengthy and expensive case against them to prove otherwise.
I 100% agree with your assertion that the company (or any company) will do everything in its power to prevent their workers from going on strike. They will certainly fight. Personally, I feel that striking it a last resort and is really the last card you play when you are sure that all else has failed and you are backed into a corner. In preparation, you would definitely need legal advice and preparation to ensure that you commenced industrial action legally and in a way in which you are protected. My reading of 9, subsection (2) reads that if you strike, you are protected from being terminated under any of the reasons listed under subsection (1) i.e. you can't be terminated for going on strike.
The main reason for posting this thread was to dispel the myth spread at work that 'striking is illegal'. This is obviously a rumour which is beneficial to the company as many people seem to believe this is be the law in Hong Kong. It irritates me that they get this myth perpetuated. It is not that law. The law says HK EO states:
"The fact that an employee takes part in a strike does not entitle his employer to terminate under subsection (1) the employee’s contract of employment."
and Article 27 states:
"Hong Kong residents shall have freedom of speech, of the press and of publication; freedom of association, of assembly, of procession and of demonstration; and the right and freedom to form and join trade unions, and to strike."
To reinterate it is not illegal to for employees to go on strike in Hong Kong.
I 100% agree with your assertion that the company (or any company) will do everything in its power to prevent their workers from going on strike. They will certainly fight. Personally, I feel that striking it a last resort and is really the last card you play when you are sure that all else has failed and you are backed into a corner. In preparation, you would definitely need legal advice and preparation to ensure that you commenced industrial action legally and in a way in which you are protected. My reading of 9, subsection (2) reads that if you strike, you are protected from being terminated under any of the reasons listed under subsection (1) i.e. you can't be terminated for going on strike.
I reckon you are correct according to sources I can find.... According to a speech in Legco 21/9/1999, in response to the amendment of the employment ordinance regarding contradiction of s9 and the Basic Law, Joseph Wong Wing Ping, the then Secretary of Education, said, s 9 does not provide employers with excuse to terminate employment by reason of industrial action/strike, termination of an employee must be proven by the employer under s 9.
Personally, although there was no such ordinance regulating 'strike', the union would probably best lodge an 'application' to notify the labour department before telling the company....
quadspeed
29th Dec 2018, 07:14
Look; it's not ILLEGAL to strike. Meaning you can't be dispersed by force or arrested for doing so. But the fact that it is not illegal does not equate to absolvement of responsibility. You also have the right to form a union and engage in union activities, but try standing on a soapbox at despatch and you'll quickly learn where the rights of workers collide with the rights of employers.
it's not illegal to speak your mind either. In fact, you have the right to free speech. However, making a public proclamation on the evils and stupidity of your employer will get you fired regardless.
Again; if you're going to strike, make sure to do it on your days off.
Crispybacon
29th Dec 2018, 07:30
In my opinion this entire thread is moot.
Section 9 is referring to when an employee can be dismissed without notice or payment in lieu thereof. Accordingly, even if one were not to engage in the activities mentioned in Section 9, the company could either give you three months notice or payment in lieu thereof, and tell you to lace up your boots, you’re outta here.
curiousflyer
29th Dec 2018, 08:15
Some new stories related to industrial action in Hong Kong that may be of interest:
Hong Kong Dockers Strike (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1231549/strike-ends-after-40-days-dockers-accept-98pc-pay-rise)
KA Cabin Crew Vote to Strike (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/2169881/cathay-dragon-cabin-crew-give-union-power-call)
CX Cabin Crew Talks (http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/economy/article/1811284/disgusting-and-disappointing-cathay-pacific-cabin-crew-talks)
CX Cabin Crew Strike (http://www.upi.com/Archives/1993/01/14/Flight-attendant-strike-hits-Cathay-Pacific/1657726987600/)
KMB Bus Drivers Strike Action (http://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/04/13/kmb-bus-drivers-initiated-strike-officially-reinstated-following-appeal/)
Flex88
29th Dec 2018, 20:02
Swire & Co have been operating in HK & China for 150 yrs and, rumoured as custom at the time and perhaps even still today, you had government officials in your pocket...
Swires and their subsidiaries consider the "Ordinance" as a list of suggestions and rough guidelines NOT as hard and fast rules.. They think similarly regarding the HK Privacy and Data Protection ordinance.. You get the idea..
OneBarWonder
30th Dec 2018, 00:48
“Thank you, CF. But spineless pilots do not want to do that, they prefer wearing red lanyards.”
Many members won’t even wear their lanyards. Pathetic.
The day 49 pilots were sacked and everyone went back to work the next day was the moment the HKAOA lost its credibility.
Roy De Kantzow
30th Dec 2018, 02:39
The fact that we are still terrified of anything other than merely complying with our contracts shows what a masterpiece of control 'the 49ers' was by CX management. It has kept the pilot body in line for many years, and will continue to do so.
The continuation of the 'I'll fight my contract while you fight yours' is a complete joke, and is symptomatic of the position we find ourselves in today.
Relying on others leaving, or putting people off joining is weak and pathetic. Just like the entire CX pilot body and the AOA. I'm embarrassed to be a part of it frankly.