Can you help me? RAF 1960s. [Archive]

James Blatch

14th Dec 2018, 16:34

Hello,

I’ve been around in these forums for a very long time, but decided to post in my real name for this exercise.

I am in the process of writing a novel set on a fictitious RAF station in Wiltshire that hosts a test and evaluation unit (in the style of Life of Brian, the real Boscombe Down is mentioned a few times to underline the fact that RAF West Porton is entirely made up).

The book is set in 1966.

I’m in the third draft and heading for a Spring 2019 release (if you’re interested, I’ve added a synopsis below).

My father, an RAF test pilot at Boscombe Down 1959-1966 has been immensely helpful with some of the detail that will enable the book to feel authentic, but he is nearly 88 and his memory is understandably patchy. So I would love some help with some of the specifics if others on here were in the RAF during that period.

I would like to post some questions in this thread as they occur during the writing process and I would be immensely grateful for anyone who is able to contribute an answer.

I’ll try to post questions as individual posts to enable anyone who is able to, to answer with a reply/quote to that specific point.

Book synopsis for info:

A young pilot survives a crash, but loses his closest friend. In the days that follows he realises his late friend was in a desperate quest to uncover a corruption. Wracked with guilt about his role in the crash and his failure to listen to his friend in life, he must take up the quest as his only chance of atonement.

PS I'm also on the look out for advanced readers who could provide some feedback ahead of the official launch.

James Blatch

14th Dec 2018, 18:05

Q1

The Argosy.

Does anyone have any experience in the back of an Argosy? Were you a loadmaster? Do you know: how an item such as a ‘gas bomb’ would have been pushed out of the aircraft? I realise this is unusual, but presumably and routine drop would work in the same way.

What was the arrangement for loads that were physically pushed out? Were they on a trolley, was there a lever that held the load back until release time? And also how would the loadmaster time this? Over the intercom from the cockpit? Or a lights system?

James Blatch

14th Dec 2018, 18:06

James Blatch

14th Dec 2018, 18:07

James Blatch

14th Dec 2018, 18:07

Q4:

Drinking on a dead man’s tab in the evening of a loss.

Sorry for the unhappy subject.

Does anyone recall if this was a common tradition in the 1960s and earlier? I understand it may originate in the RN, but I am not sure if this would have been the case in the RAF in 1966?

alwayslookingup

14th Dec 2018, 20:33

Q3:

Happy Hour.

As a BBC reporter in the 90s/00s I had some enjoyable experiences during Happy Hour on a Friday night in officers’ messes.

However, does anyone recall when this tradition began? Was Happy Hour a universal expression used on RAF stations? And was it used as far back as the 1960s?

Was Friday afternoon always a time for light sweeping/admin before an early repair to the bar?

To the best of my knowledge, Happy Hour existed in the time period of your book. It was generally held in the Corporal's Club, or equivalent, the fiction being that a higher rank could enter premises for lower ranks, but not vice versa. The object of the happy hour was to twist all the arms, bend all the ears or call in all the favours you needed in order to get things done in the working day. As such, shop talk was permitted, indeed encouraged. However, later in the evening, or over the weekend, wives or girlfriends would have been in the company so shop talk was verboten. (Not sure if there would have been many husbands/boyfriends at this time). Indeed, I think it was on penalty of buying a round if shop talk accidentally crept into the conversation.

Pontius Navigator

14th Dec 2018, 21:06

Q2: (Sorry, they are coming slowly as this account is subject to moderation at the moment).

Line of sight in the Vulcan crew area.

I believe there may have been a curtain or screen put in place between the cockpit and the rear crew area of a Vulcan? Was that always in place? If it was not in place, can any crew members recall whether it was possible to see back into the rear crew from the cockpit and vice versa?

I’ve sat in a Vulcan a couple of times and this does appear to be the case, but I’m not sure about the curtain/screen arrangement.
There were anti-flash screens between front and rear. During day time flights they were usually closed to that the radar was not affected by the daylight. At night this was less a problem though the pilots might request them closed if the rear crew lighting was too bright.

It was possible, if the blinds were open to look either way except that only the AEO could see the copilot and the Nav Rad see the captain. Obviously if someone in the back got out of their seat and went forward they could see more.

Pontius Navigator

14th Dec 2018, 21:08

Pontius Navigator

14th Dec 2018, 21:10

rlsbutler

15th Dec 2018, 01:28

Two pence worth for James’ questions so far, by message number:

#2 Argosies: no experience

#3 Vulcan cabin sight line: I was almost always in the front left seat. I was always tightly strapped in – it never occurred to me to go anywhere else. In those days I think I never used the pee-bottle. I have a vague memory of craning right with difficulty to look into the hole, but do not remember seeing a face to make it worth while. As PN says at #7, crew were able to come up to the front deck if they felt like it. When, as we often did, we carried crew chiefs or Nav trappers, we pilots might have expected a visit but I do not think it often happened.

#4 Happy Hour: Tengah 1962-64 had all sorts of aircraft and roles including a virtual wing of Javelins on 24 hour duty. Friday night was not very special. Indeed the drinking associated with UK station Happy Hours seemed instead to occur every weekday lunch time. When the first flight of Victors came to launch Confrontasi, they brought one or two gung-ho captains who insisted on a Happy Hour of their own. We had a good visiting relationship with the USAF (at Clark AB, in Okinawa and even transporters in Japan) so we knew what TGIF was. PN at #9 has the V-force routine as I remember it.

#5 Dead Man’s Bar Book: at the Bassingbourne OCU 1961-2 we lost five in a nasty car prang; the OCU staff were hardened old chaps and would have enforced this practice if they could. I do not remember it. At Tengah my squadron lost a crew of three just after I arrived. I would have remembered any mess bar ceremonial such as you suggest – it did not happen. However, very important for that witness, I cannot remember how we paid our way: if we had no bar books, as I sort-of remember, then the concept would be still born. In the rest of my time the question did not arise.

Sorry there are so few of us answering your plea James. If Danny 42 was still around, it would all be there on a plate for you.

MPN11

15th Dec 2018, 07:45

#4 - Happy Hour. Certainly happened in 1966 at the RAF College of Air Warfare, Manby. A very mixed and sociable Mess population. As a watch-keeping ATCO, my attendance was however variable! Uniform not worn after 1900, IIRC.

Never heard of an All-Ranks edition as mentioned at Post #6, but then there would always have been local variations on the theme.

At Tengah in the late 60s HH finished promptly at 1900, when one was required to change rig into long sleeves and trousers.

In the early 70s at Eastern Radar, RAF Watton, it ran from 1700 until ENDEX, with food c. 1900 to benefit the watch-keepers coming off-shift at 1800. House rule was “No WAGs before 2100, and thereafter at their own discretion!” Uniform was regularly worn in the Bar, as controllers came and went all the time (it was a 24-hour Unit).

Pontius Navigator

15th Dec 2018, 08:09

R lsButler:

if we had no bar books, as I sort-of remember, then the concept would be still born

We either had bar books that the barman would fill out and you were supposed to sign. During a session the books could be set out behind the bar and often unsigned.

Sometimes bar books were impractical, for instance when lots of people and several barman were working, then we used bar chits. Bars were largely cashless.

A peculiarity was using your home station bar number and chit at a visited station. Accounts would often be forwarded to home base. Very useful for diverted aircrew who may not carry cash and departed before the offices ooened. It also applied inter service too. It was not uncommon for Yeovilton not to forward bills.

You could also make private phone calls through the military exchange and have it charged back through your meds bill.

As an aside, Boscombe was a Vulcan dispersal for Waddington.

Tankertrashnav

15th Dec 2018, 10:08

Re happy hour - certainly existed in the 1960s. Other terms in use were TGIF (long before the TV programme of the same name), and less commonly "POETS night" (p**s on everything, tomorrow's Saturday).

Innominate

15th Dec 2018, 10:49

In the MOD establishment I worked in, POETS was "Push Off Early, Tomorrow's Saturday".

BEagle

15th Dec 2018, 10:53

Never heard of an All-Ranks edition as mentioned at Post #6, but then there would always have been local variations on the theme.

Good grief, what a frightful concept... Perhaps on a small detachment now and again, but never routinely on a home station.

Where a station had a large number of beanstealers (e.g. OASC Biggin Hill), they often tried to hold Happy Hour on Thursdays, so that they could snore off their hangovers behind their desks on Friday mornings, then poke off on Friday afternoon. We had an OM Mess Meeting at Biggin Hill where the idea of Dining-In Nights being held on Thursdays was put to the vote. With rather a significant number of cheesed-off aircrew (and fighter controllerettes :ok:) reselection officers being there at the time, the vote went in favour of retaining Friday nights for D-I-Ns....:E Some of the beanstealers were, shall we say, not exactly happy...:hmm:

Re. Vulcan sight line, when we went over to green gloves, the SFOM sight glass against green gloves could make a passable mirror to see whether the lower deck was asleep...

As was the case with our Nav Rad - downwind from Scampton for an Infernal Aids approach, we were virtually at the Binbrook MATZ before the bugger woke up.

ICM

15th Dec 2018, 11:09

James: I started as an Argosy Navigator. Drop timing was controlled by the Nav lying on a board up front, looking down through an aiming window in the nose. He would have calculated a release point, though I have no idea what the Forward Throw for your "Gas Bomb" might have been, and established it in terms of yards left/right and long/short from the desired impact point (IP). Having no idea what your scenario is, I can't say what DZ markings there might be to assist in estimating ground distances. Maybe just a smoke canister on the IP? On the run-in to the Drop Zone (DZ), the Nav would advise the pilot with Left/Right calls and, with 10 seconds to release, would call "Red On" and a red light by the rear para doors would come on. Over the release point, he'd then call "Green On" - a green light would come on and the load release would commence.

I'm assuming that your "Gas Bomb" would have been rigged something like a standard 1-Ton Container - ie pallet mounted, on guide rails, and probably with an small extractor chute fixed to the upper clamshell door. At "Green On" the extractor would hopefully drop free and open in the airflow, pulling the load out and initiating main chute opening clear of the aircraft. Sorry, I can't recall detail of the braking system on the guide rails that would be released, or of the rigging system that was used for main chute initiation - that was Loadmaster and Air Dispatcher business, and it's all 50 years ago. (Dougie M may be able to assist if he sees this - he was another Nav involved in airdropping on the Argosy and C-130 for much longer than I was.)

Hope that helps a little.

spekesoftly

15th Dec 2018, 11:26

I left the RAF some 40 years ago, but Mrs Speke could never understand why it was called happy 'hour' ...... She is also of the opinion that they took place every weekday evening! :uhoh:

Timelord

15th Dec 2018, 12:18

I can’t speak for the 60s but Happy Hours were certainly well established in the V Force by the early 70s. And by then Friday afternoons were usually “light”, and sometimes even involved a barrel at the squadron before happy hour.

If the curtains were open it was possible for the pilots to look into the rear crew area, although straps would need to be loose. There was a good description in the accident report into the Spilsby Vulcan crash of the captain watching the rear crews’ attempts to abandon the aircraft with increasing desperation.

As a Nav Rad or 6th seat I took every opportunity to stand on the ladder and look out but it was hard work wearing a parachute and very hard work with parachute and dinghy.
’

retreating blade

15th Dec 2018, 12:36

Many years ago in Belize, we lost a fast jet pilot in a crash one morning. Later in the day, his friends and colleagues gathered in the bar to drink to his memory and lay the ghost of his passing; all drinks were added to his bar book account which was subsequently written off. The Belize OM was joint Army/RAF and as you might imagine, our tradition drew angry comment from some.

Timelord

15th Dec 2018, 12:39

Dougie M

15th Dec 2018, 14:56

James. IIRC there were no plans for the R.A.F.to drop the U.S. Daisy Cutter weapon in the 60's. There was a trial to carry 6 x 1000lb bombs on pylons on the exterior of the Argosy fuselage but that never happened either. Hypothetically a "gas bomb" could have been mounted on an SSP platform which would have been loaded onto roller conveyor tracks in the freight bay. This would be restrained by chocks and chains until the pre drop checks. The Nav would have control of the drop using a release handle mounted at the supply aimer's position in the nose window. I doubt that there would be ground impact point markers in view of what was on its way. Then the sequence would go as ICM explained. Merry Christmas Ian.

Pontius Navigator

15th Dec 2018, 14:59

Some happy hour coloured bar chits were used. At the appointed hour these were removed and replaced with the normal white ones.

Fareastdriver

15th Dec 2018, 15:33

all drinks were added to his bar book account which was subsequently written off.

That's because he wasn't officially dead until midnight.

Tengah Type

15th Dec 2018, 19:59

Happy Hour in the 60's
The concept of Happy Hour in the 60's was to encourage all the officers to mingle and not just stay in their own specialist groups, Aircrew, Engineers etc, with the use of "Twofers"(Two for the price of One). This meant half price drinks for an hour on Friday night, usually between 1700 and 1800. In most messes a coloured bar chit ( Green?) was used for orders placed within that hour, with a scramble to get a Green chit before the bar staff removed them. Then back to the normal full priced white chits. If the mess used Bar Books as their normal control measure, then the chits would be transferred to the Bar Books on Monday. You could then find out that you had bought 100 cigarettes, despite not being a smoker. The Mess Admin always sorted this out as they well knew any persistent culprits.

Normal Mess Dress Rules were that Mon, Tues and Thurs nights, after 1900, the dress was either No 1 Uniform or lounge suits ties etc. On Weds, Fri and weekends you were allowed to wear Sports Jackets or Blazers. Ladies were not permitted in the mess on Mon, Tues or Thurs evenings, but were permitted (if appropriately dressed) on other evenings or for Sunday Lunch. Saturday Evenings the dress could also be DJ/Cocktail Dress or Fancy Dress as the occasion required. Friday nights Ladies were allowed in the mess, but it was not encouraged (and at risk). Messes had their own rules as decreed by the Stn Cdr/PMC so others may have different experiences.

At Tengah in 63-64, on my squadron, it was not unusual to have an all-ranks "Barrell" at 1600 after which some of the Junior Officers would be invited to the Sgts And WOs mess by the SNCOs. On arrival at the mess, you sought the PMCs permission to accept the invitation to enjoy their hospitality ( this was, of course, at our expense). After a couple (or 8) Tigers, you left to join the festivities in the Offs Mess. This changed with the arrival of a new Stn Cdr. Happy Hour, by then, was a major event following the arrival of several squadrons from UK, Cyprus and NZ to reinforce for the Confrontasi. A major feature of Happy Hour was the singing of Rugby Songs. On one famous occasion a choir of at least 200 was conducted by the late Manx Kelly in a rendition of " One Black One, One White One and One etc" which elucidated a noise complaint from the Javelin squadron situated a mile away across the airfield, and all the quarters kids humming the tune at school on the Monday. The main bar also frequently contained the Stn Cdrs, and OC Admins Staff Cars as well as the 2 Japanese WW2 cannon that were normally placed outside the mess. The later charged with strings of Chinese Crackers. Dress Regulations were not always applied!

At Marham, from the mid 60s, the Dress Regs were as I have described earlier, but even though flying suits were not worn away from the squadron, some working dress might have been evident later in the evening. It was also a time when a certain degree of relaxation of the normal rank structure was permitted and one could "Tease" ones Flt Cdr, Sqn Cdr,or even Stn Cdr. If overdone it was required to present yourself on Monday morning to be told (with undertones!) that you were "Forgiven". Or so I am told.
Of course, in those days, the majority of officers lived on base. In 68, on 214 Squadron, we had 53 officers, 3 married lived off-base as they were under 25yo and were not entitled to apply for a MQ, one had a family locally and the rest were in the mess or MQ.

The introduction of the Breathalyser (in 69?) changed things for the livers-out, and as more people moved to live out in the 70s Happy Hour has declined.

The tradition of drinking on a dead man's Bar Bill did occur, but my only experience of losing Sqn members was the Victor/Canberra accident in 68 which happened at night. After landing we were met in Ops by Stn Cdr, Sqn Cdr and OC Ops who told us to go straight home and not to talk to anybody. But the officers Mess Bills were cancelled.
The other(previous occasion ) was when I was at Hullavington in 62 when a Valetta crashed. IIRC the bar was open in the evening on "Mess Guests"( ie free) for the wake for the departed. I assume the Sgts and WOs Mess did the same for their own.

CharlieJuliet

15th Dec 2018, 20:10

Lightning/Phantom 60's and 70's. Remember Happy Hour/2fors but don't remember drinking on a deceased's bar bill.

Pontius Navigator

15th Dec 2018, 21:01

TT mentioned women in the mess. In some messes this was verboten apart from functions. At one mess wives were not even permitted to check the mail rack.

The reasoning was she might see mail addressed to another officer who might not have wanted knowledge of such correspondence to spread.

At Lindholme telephones were not generally available. One wife-of used to have to walk passed the mess to the guardroom to then ring the mess to find out if her husband was there.

Fareastdriver

15th Dec 2018, 21:09

One wife-of used to have to walk passed the mess to the guardroom to then ring the mess to find out if her husband was there

As it should be!

Cornish Jack

16th Dec 2018, 11:49

The combination of Boscombe and the Argosy triggers memories of the one which crashed into the bomb dump. We picked up the Staff TP and took him to the Mil Hospital where he made a subsequent remarkable recovery. Not sure that that episode would have much relevance to your intended novel.

Pontius Navigator

16th Dec 2018, 18:58

There was a trial to carry 6 x 1000lb bombs on pylons on the exterior of the Argosy fuselage but that never happened either.

We had Argosy 'bomb aimers's' on a course at Lindholme when I did my visual bombing course. I think the plan was to use them in Aden.

ICM

16th Dec 2018, 19:25

PN: Now that's interesting, as I'd never heard of anything being done that suggested we might ever have used the spigot in the nose that I understood to be a bombsight mounting, and I don't know of anyone who did such a Course. In the event, nothing of the kind was ever done by 105 Sqn at Khormaksar. I did fly a Hunter-assisted leaflet dropping sortie upcountry one afternoon, but I suspect that the days of "Air Control" had been left way behind in the 20s/30s.

And Doug: Seasons greetings duly reciprocated - and I'm glad to see that my recollection of how it all went was not too far off course!

Pontius Navigator

16th Dec 2018, 20:10

ICM, several of my nav course went to Argosy and I have vague memory of who a couple might have been. They would have been starting 2nd tours, they were Tim Hankey and Bill Hamilton-Irving aka Bill H-I.

tlightb

16th Dec 2018, 20:10

ICM, going a bit off thread with this reply, but ref the bombing capability at Khormaksar I remember that 37 Sqn (Shackletons) had the bombing facility and used it I believe when there was incoming from the Yemen into Dhala. On 21 Sqn (Twin Pioneer) we trained up on dropping bombs on the range (AD3) with 25lbs bombs. The bombsight was quite a large bit of kit and would have been a bit of a problem in the Argosy drop position if used there. The accuracy was good (straight and level approach) and at that time the recipients didn't have anything in the way of air defence. If they did it would have been a one way trip.

oxenos

16th Dec 2018, 21:14

At one mess wives were not even permitted to check the mail rack.
In two messes that I recall, the mail rack was inside the men's cloakroom.

Brian 48nav

17th Dec 2018, 10:23

PN

Tim Hankey was on Andovers, 52 Sqn, Seletar then Changi in 68/9 and lived in the same apartment block as us - the 'Under 25 " Ghetto in downtown ( almost ! ) Singapore. Since demolished.

At Temple Hill OM the mail rack used to be at one end of the mess verandah - I can remember some folk getting quite uptight when wives drove up to collect their mail. I couldn't see the problem until years later, and now a civvie, when at an ex-Herc' mate's house for supper his sister-in-law ( a BA trolley dolly ) arrived and exclaimed " XXX, I checked the mail rack for you when I arrived back from en-route, nothing there". XXX now a pilot with BA went crimson and told her " You never collect someone else's mail! ". I knew his reason why!

ARCHIE1

17th Dec 2018, 18:46

Following Argosy conversion at Thorney Island in mid-63, those pilots and navigators on my course destined for 105 Sqn undertook a short bombing course at RAF Lindholme followed by an air photography course at RAF Bassingbourn. The plan was indeed to carry six bombs externally and to run a camera on an athwartships rail out of the rear (side) passenger door. The bombing course included a live exercise dropping small practice bombs from a Varsity at Theddlethorpe range but there was no practical aerial photography involved. In the event, my posting was changed to 267 Sqn at RAF Benson but I understand my colleagues who went to RAF Khormaksar never did get a chance to put their training into practice.

Pontius Navigator

17th Dec 2018, 21:29

Brian, thank you, it was 50 years ago.

Archie, good to get corroboration. It might have been at my initial Lindholme course and not my later visual course.

James Blatch

18th Dec 2018, 16:18

Well, after a 'life event' intervened last week, I have finally had a chance to come back to this thread and it is a veritable gold mine! Thank you all so much.

The little asides (Mrs X wonders why it was called 'hour') are gold to me in injecting more than a whiff of authenticity into the novel.

The feedback on the drop timing and method for the Argosy is brilliant, thank you so much @ICM.

One of my get-outs is that this is a trials unit and therefore not everything was done as it would have been on a squadron. The Argosy gas bombs are based on a real event, however. My father recalls the trial - they built a mock village at Porton Down and then dropped them with mannequins dressed as civilians with patches recording the spread of the gas (tear gas my father thinks). At some point I will visit the National Archive and read up about this and other trials in more detail.

I have a couple of follow ups and one new question to post below. Thoroughly enjoying the gen, thank you all very much:

@Pontius Navigator
@ARCHIE1
@Brian 48nav
@tlightb
@oxenos
@ICM
@Cornish Jack
@fareastdriver
@charliejuliet
@Tengah Type
@Dougie M
@Timelord
@Retreating Blade
@spekesoftly
@rlsbutler
@alwayslookingup

James Blatch

18th Dec 2018, 16:21

James Blatch

18th Dec 2018, 16:22

Q5: Odd one this...would airman and officers have worn their uniform to church on Sunday?

weemonkey

18th Dec 2018, 20:31

It picked up in the 70's and peaked late 80's.

Cant post images but will get back in 5 more posts ;)

Timelord

18th Dec 2018, 20:34

FOLLOW UP: The dead man's bar bill appears to have been patchy in its tradition. But would there have been a gathering in the bar that night (regardless of this tradition)? Or would people have gone home to their wives/families?

My experience only goes back to the 70s but every fatality I knew about from then until now was followed by a serious amount of drinking ( and singing and burning pianos in some cases) in the mess that evening. Some went home quietly but most stuck together because hard won experience over the years taught that this was the best way of getting through it.

The RAF has been doing this since at least WW2 but sticking together with mates who have been through the same experience before going home is now, I believe , the best practice amongst the emergency services following a traumatic event.

ICM

19th Dec 2018, 10:59

James: I've learned a thing or two from this thread myself, I must say, and I'll probably be a buyer for your book based on its likely Argosy content alone! Something you might want to check out is whether there was a need to build a village at Porton for the testing you mention. The MOD had, and probably still has, Imber village located well inside the Salisbury Plain Training Area (SPTA). It was taken over by the War Office in WW2, its inhabitants were displaced elsewhere, and it was retained for Army training use after the war with a certain amount of additional building carried out. If we were indeed testing 'gas bombs' back then, I'd have thought that was a more remote location than Porton for doing so.

Pontius Navigator

19th Dec 2018, 16:53

FOLLOW UP: The dead man's bar bill appears to have been patchy in its tradition. But would there have been a gathering in the bar that night (regardless of this tradition)? Or would people have gone home to their wives/families?
This is probably as patchy too. By curious coincidence I was not on-base when any of the IX Vulcans crashed but there was another tradition you haven't picked up on and that was the dead man's sale. The Effects Officer would recover all Service issue uniforms and kit such as flying kit. The rest of the kit, such as hats and gloves, uniforms and mess kit, would, with NOK permission, be auctioned off people often paying well over the odds. The rationale was that death in service benefits were not generous and a 'wife of' in quarters had 62 days to vacate. She could also become ab outcast as a living reminder of the vulnerability of their men.

There was a 'chick lit' novel written be a British journalist about such fatalities on a USAF F100 Sqn in UK. She got under the skin of the matter and I could read the parallels.

Tankertrashnav

19th Dec 2018, 17:04

Thoroughly enjoying the gen, thank you all very much:

@Pontius Navigator
@ARCHIE1
@Brian 48nav
@tlightb
@oxenos
@ICM
@Cornish Jack
@fareastdriver
@charliejuliet
@Tengah Type
@Dougie M
@Timelord
@Retreating Blade
@spekesoftly
@rlsbutler
@alwayslookingup

Goes off to sulk!

(@tankertrashnav ;))

NRU74

19th Dec 2018, 20:25

I remember funerals/wakes in the 60’s and 70’s on two separate occasions.
The latter was a young co-pilot killed in a car crash near Marham a long time ago.
The funeral took place at Norwich Crematorium and the Wake was held in the Mess.
We all drank on this young man’s Bar Bill (some of us to excess).
At the next Mess Meeting some months later, the Mess Sec pointed out, in the ‘Any other business’ bit, that there was an unpaid Bar Bill by the late Fg Off Bloggs.
One guy stood up and proposed that it should be written off. The PMC asked for a Seconder and someone complied.
There was a vote, and unsuprisingly, it was unanimous, and the Mess, collectively, paid the bill

MPN11

20th Dec 2018, 05:11

Goes off to sulk!

(@tankertrashnav ;))
Well, as you’ve mentioned it, ditto!
@MPN11 :)

Whilst not exactly relevant to the book, I was on a staff visit to Binbrook in the 80s when they lost one of their Lightnings. FlyPro cancelled, and all and sundey repaired to the Bar to drink his farewell. Proceedings were well under way by the time I’d finished my task. Unless my memory has fogged, one of his flying boots (presumably from a spare pair in his locker) was nailed to the Bar ceiling to join others sadly displayed there.

Pontius Navigator

20th Dec 2018, 07:52

NRU74, that seems more likely than drinking on the day.

Cornish Jack

20th Dec 2018, 10:45

NRU74, that seems more likely than drinking on the day.
Not necessarily - We lost our co-pilot in K'sar when he fell through the boom hatch, in the dark, doing the pre-flight. He died from his injuries and was buried that afternoon. In spite of the 'caring' offer of the local Wg Cdr Fg to provide another co-pilot, our Skipper (Andy Andrusekevic(sp?)), forcefully expressed his opinion and took us all off to the bar. Alcohol can help, at times!!

Brian 48nav

20th Dec 2018, 10:58

CJ,

Andy was on 48 on Hercs then wing pilot at Changi,( 67-69 ), Top Man. Just checked my log book for correct spelling, I hope! - Andrusikiewicz.

jete

21st Dec 2018, 11:34

Sqn Ldr A to Z as he was fondly known. I think he finished his career in the C130 sim at Lyneham. Top bloke!

Dougie M

21st Dec 2018, 20:13

Andy A to Z was, as were a lot of his compatriots, still unable to master fluent English after forty years of RAF service. In the Herc sim one day after briefing a departure from Akrotiri in the bird migration season, he stepped forward at rotate speed and dumped a pile of APs in the captain's lap. He then pronounced "Emmer gency, emmer gency, Flamingo comes through window, kills Captain. Copilot you have control!" The subsequent immediate actions and checklists were carried out with suppressed giggles.Top bloke as Jete says.

James Blatch

21st Dec 2018, 21:38

Goes off to sulk!

(@tankertrashnav ;))

Always a danger when you decide to thank people individually!

So sorry @tankertrashnav and THANK YOU :)

This is probably as patchy too. By curious coincidence I was not on-base when any of the IX Vulcans crashed but there was another tradition you haven't picked up on and that was the dead man's sale. The Effects Officer would recover all Service issue uniforms and kit such as flying kit. The rest of the kit, such as hats and gloves, uniforms and mess kit, would, with NOK permission, be auctioned off people often paying well over the odds. The rationale was that death in service benefits were not generous and a 'wife of' in quarters had 62 days to vacate. She could also become ab outcast as a living reminder of the vulnerability of their men.

There was a 'chick lit' novel written be a British journalist about such fatalities on a USAF F100 Sqn in UK. She got under the skin of the matter and I could read the parallels.

Had never heard of that tradition. So pleased you mentioned it.

Well, as you’ve mentioned it, ditto!
@MPN11 :)

Whilst not exactly relevant to the book, I was on a staff visit to Binbrook in the 80s when they lost one of their Lightnings. FlyPro cancelled, and all and sundey repaired to the Bar to drink his farewell. Proceedings were well under way by the time I’d finished my task. Unless my memory has fogged, one of his flying boots (presumably from a spare pair in his locker) was nailed to the Bar ceiling to join others sadly displayed there.

Thank you @MPN11, and sorry :)

Timelord

22nd Dec 2018, 15:40

James, I don’t think anyone has answered your question about uniform to church on a Sunday. I think the answer is no, except perhaps the Duty Officer and NCOs, should they choose to go.

Pontius Navigator

22nd Dec 2018, 15:50

TL, you prompt me with a memory.

The norm of the age was to repair to the Mess for a post-church stiffener. The stn cdr other brass would gather too and frequently joined by the padre.

The Jesuit or RC Chaplain was usually a liver-in.

Where uniform would be worn was after a Church Parade though these were rare even in the 60s but drinks still afterwards.

James Blatch

30th Dec 2018, 16:53

James, I don’t think anyone has answered your question about uniform to church on a Sunday. I think the answer is no, except perhaps the Duty Officer and NCOs, should they choose to go.
Thank you. As I suspected.

oldmansquipper

30th Dec 2018, 20:31

Being neither commissioned nor a mason in the 60s I cannot really add to the excellent answers on drinking on dead mates bar bills or the subsequent disposal of his property given above.

However in RAFG,, all ranks Friday p.ss ups on the worlds oldest fixed wing Sqn (II AC) were generally known as "Beer Calls". They usually lasted from about 16:00 to 19:00 when erks and zobs would split to their own watering holes. Zobs to the Mess in flying kit and us lot to Snoopies bar in our denims. The entertainment would usually finish around dawn. In our case, it would probably end in Mamas in Weeze.

As for kit disposal, I can confirm that if the deceased was an 'Inventory holder' then any discreapancies found on a closing check would be 'written off'.

Joking aside - the Squadron ethos and the aircrew/groundcrew bond in RAFG was second to none.

Good luck with the book!

oldmansquipper

30th Dec 2018, 20:36

Pontius Navigator

30th Dec 2018, 20:42

"Fall out, the Roman Catholics and Jews"

I don't suppose that is still the case.
Or if a church parade, ie the Service on the parade square, the News and Roman Catholics are to fall out and March to the edge of the parade square and remain facing outward whilst the padre would conduct the Service.

ricardian

30th Dec 2018, 21:47

In the 60s There were best blue Church Parades on Sunday's at many training camps IIRC.

On arrival at the CofE church the order to halt was quickly followed by another more contravertial one...

"Fall out, the Roman Catholics and Jews"

I don't suppose that is still the case.
Yes, at RAF Cosford (2 S of TT) in 1959-61 the Sunday services were PMUB (Presbyterian, Methodists & "United Board"), C of E and "others"

Haraka

31st Dec 2018, 07:29

RAFC 1968
"Fall out Roman Catholics ,Jews and other Heathens"

BEagle

31st Dec 2018, 07:30

The topic of religious persuasion cropped up fairly early in my time at RAFC Cranwell. However, amongst our number were quite a few ex-'Super Techs' who'd been selected from their apprentice training to become officers. Thinking they were clever, they did a bit of investigation...

The CofE contingent had a weekly Church parade at 10:30, inspection and then marched to the god shop. The service went on for ages (brightened up only by the AsCom's very pretty teenage daughter's backside), then we marched back again - with luck we were free by mid-day at the earliest.

The CSFC Church of Jocks and Others gathered a little earlier at 10:00 in the Junior Mess entrance, strolled to their church and were out again pretty quick.

Whereas the RC chaps simply turned up at their church at 09:30, mumbled some Latin and were done and dusted PDQ.... No inspection, no marching and a couple of hours of extra freedom.

So one morning, some of the ex-Super Techs asked to see the RC god-botherer, on the grounds that, after much thought, they'd come to the conclusion that Roman Catholicism was the best chance there was to rescue their heathen spirits. The RC sky-pilot was astonished and was almost on the point of ringing the Pope, or similar, to spread the good news.... But even he began to smell a rat. He told the would-be converts that instruction in Roman Catholicism would involve many hours of study and prayer - so were they really sure they were prepared to submit themselves to such hard work, given all the other pressures of Flight Cadet training.....the instruction would take place on Saturday afternoons.

Needless to say, there were quite a few more CofE cadets marching to church the following week!

nipva

31st Dec 2018, 12:18

'Whereas the RC chaps simply turned up at their church at 09:30, mumbled some Latin and were done and dusted PDQ '

And we atheists didn't parade at all.

BEagle

31st Dec 2018, 12:30

Our Junior Entry Sgt had a solution for so-called atheists and agnostics. He told them that they would have to attend the same parade, inspection and march to the church as the CoE cadets, but would then be required to remain outside standing easy until the service was over...

Some of the quickest conversions since Paul on the Road to Damascus soon followed...

Pontius Navigator

31st Dec 2018, 12:35

Did I mention that RC padres used to live in? As they were celebrate they were not entitled to a MQ.

I recall two. One was Irish and available to his flock every night in the bar. He would have given Rudolf a run for his money.

A years later we had a Jesuit priest and he gave us serious thought on converting. He too would minister in the bar too. In fact he went one better and volunteered as bar member but his bishop objected.

Geriaviator

31st Dec 2018, 15:33

AT RAF Khormaksar in 1951 the Church Parade was a major occasion requiring best uniforms and maximum bull, putting my Dad in bad form for the preceding week. The Station Parade was one of my most vivid childhood memories albeit with a painful sequel. Our late and much missed friend Danny 42C said it was one of his favourite stories on the Brevet thread, you should still find it at #3558 on p176 or try here (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww-ii-post7723830.html)

James Blatch

31st Dec 2018, 16:16

Thanks for the additional colour all - very helpful hearing from those who were there at the time.

I was brought up on the tale end of the church going era for many families, hated it at the time, but quite enjoy the odd service now - a love for some of the hymns and quiet time must have sunk in.

As for the questionable statements regards religion etc, you should know that I have no intention of white washing the past, so some language and observations, normal for the time, are included without apology.

Regards the Argosy, I got hold of the pilots' notes, which have been very helpful to add to what I've learned here.

MPN11

31st Dec 2018, 19:42

I confess ( ;) ) never having attended a Church Parade since ... ever? 1965-1994. Am I damned?

Dougie M

31st Dec 2018, 19:45

As a point of interest. In the mid 60s there was an RC Padre at Khormaksar called Father Sean O'Shea. each month we would fly him on the "God Special" to minister unto his little flocks in Riyan, Salalah and Masirah, all in one day. At the bar in Masirah he would indulge in a few brandy and Benedictines, most apposite and regale the crew and interested bystanders with stories of his ministry. "What about hearing confessions from the desert outpost troops?" we asked. "It's rather like being stoned to death with popcorn" he replied,

Tankertrashnav

1st Jan 2019, 11:13

As they were celebrate they were not entitled to a MQ.

One of your more amusing typos, P-N !

Mind you, from what I can gather, not All RC priests are as "celebrate" as they are supposed to be ;)

I confess ( https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif ) never having attended a Church Parade since ... ever? 1965-1994. Am I damned?

When I went to my sister in law's requiem mass about 10 years ago I told the priest after the service that it was the first time I had been to mass since attending the RC service after my passing out parade at Feltwell in 1964, and had been in Latin. I dont think he was too shocked, although he expressed a wish that one day I might return to the fold. Did a few C of E church parades when serving, including a memorable one at Durham Cathedral when I was terrified of slipping on the cobbles and making an idiot of myself as we marched up the hill to the Cathedral.

Fareastdriver

1st Jan 2019, 11:23

!960 to 1978, dodged the lot. The only parades I went on were my Passing Out Parade at South Cerney and my Wings Parade at Oakington. The closest I got to a real one was standing behind the reviewing stand and in all the rest I was in the fly past.

mcdhu

1st Jan 2019, 19:41

Pontius Navigator

1st Jan 2019, 21:38

And then there was the expectation that an officer new to a station would leave his card at the stn cdrs house and would be invited to afternoon tea some time thereafter. This slowly faded away in the mid to late 60s when 'living out' was beginning to be countenanced - especially at Benson where, with 2 large Argosy squadrons, TQF and other units, the mess was simply not big enough to house all the 'singlies' - great area for pubs and restaurants. Happy days.
Cheers all,
mcdhuTwo cards, one in the Mess and one for Mrs Stn Cdr. Given an aircrew complement on a bomber base of 180 or so and over 200 all told, there would be a turn over of about 70 per year and Mrs SC would have been pretty busy.

On posting the officer again left cards in the Mess and with Mrs SC but annotated ppc. The cards were a standard size for RAF officers and WRAF officers had a slightly larger one. Cards were engraved and never printed. Apart from one's name, rank etc you could put the name of your Club on them. The Club was of course the RAF Club which served as a permanent address.

Tankertrashnav

2nd Jan 2019, 00:06

I called on Mrs Commandant at Catterick shortly after arriving, and went along with another newly arrived chap. They were RCs and had a big family and when we called we were given tea in the company of a couple of her under fives. Rather than the stiff "tea and cucumber sandwiches" occasion we were expecting it turned out to be a riot, which we thoroughly enjoyed. This was in 1965 and by the time I was posted to a new station in 1967 the practice appeared to have died out.

Re "ppc", when we were having a lecture on calling etc, the officer giving the lecture asked if anyone knew what "PPC" stood for. One of our number stuck his hand up and answered "pour prendre congé sir" (to take one's leave). The officer was a bit taken aback that someone had known, and I suspect marked the cadet down as a smart-arse.

ve3id

2nd Jan 2019, 00:21

[QUOTE=Tankertrashnav;10348712]One of your more amusing typos, P-N !

Mind you, from what I can gather, not All RC priests are as "celebrate" as they are supposed to be ;)

/QUOTE]
Actually, they will take a married Anglican priest, they are so short. Don't know if he has to sign a declaration of celibacy though!

BEagle

2nd Jan 2019, 07:38

I'm not sure when calling cards were no longer needed? In 1968 our copies of Stradling at RAFC still included descriptions of the etiquette involved, but we were told to ignore it.

Quite entertaining to read about all that nowadays, but it seems so quaint and Downton Abbey in this day and age!

MPN11

2nd Jan 2019, 09:02

I remember my only use of those expensive calling cards quite well. RAFCAW Manby, 1965, and the long lonely walk to the Commandant's Residence to deposit a card on a silver tray. Was the door left open for me? Did I ring the doorbell? I can only recall being somewhat nervous about the whole process. But I did get invited back.

Rambling and irrelevant recollection ... One Saturday night the Commandant and family turned up in the Bar. Fixing me with his one eye, he called me over. ""Look after these two for me - use my Bar Book.". Accompanied by my fellow plt off, Dave G***e, we entertained his son [16-yo? Interested in target shooting, so good] and daughter [17-yo? Exquisitely gorgeous, so even better]. At closing time, "Cyclops' said something like "If you're going to keep drinking, you'd better come home with me." So we did. And more stimulating chat with gorgeous daughter ensued, in the 1* Drawing Room, drinking 1* booze.. Some hours later (0100-ish?), "Cyclops" re-enters the room. "It's about time you went home. If you want to drink more, come back at lunchtime tomorrow." Which Dave and I duly did.

Much more fun than a cucumber sandwich! :)

Pontius Navigator

2nd Jan 2019, 09:38

Browne per chance?

MPN11

2nd Jan 2019, 10:14

Browne per chance?
The very same ... but without the 'e'. I see his daughter married a Vulcan pilot :(

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1446884/Air-Commodore-Cyril-Cyclops-Brown.html

Very much in character!! On one occasion he gathered together a one-armed colleague and another with a broken leg, and - with Brown sporting his eye patch at a jaunty angle - the trio hobbled arm-in-arm into the officers' mess bar to announce to the new students that they were the staff running the test pilots' course.

Old Bricks

8th Jan 2019, 11:45

I was notionally RC when at Cranwell (68-71) but availed myself of the opportunity to not go on Church parade, unlike the CofEs, who were lumbered every week. Even worse, the CofE flight cadets were despatched to Armpit House for weekends of meaningful "g*dbothering", whereas the RCs were ignored. Needless to say, the day came when the Religious Fun Detectors spotted that the RCs had got away with it, and we were all sent "voluntarily" for a weekend in a big country house owned by some diocese in Yorkshire. As you can imagine, this was not universally welcomed, especially when we got there on Friday evening on RAF bus to be met by a super-enthusiastic swinging vicar, who told us that the whole content and timing of the weekend was up to us. When he asked what time we wanted to start on Saturday, the first enquiry was when lunch would be served. It all went downhill from there, especially when the Swinging Vic's statement that there was a bar available turned out to be a crate of bottled shandies. We all escaped that evening and went to local pub, arriving back very late and not in sparkling condition to be greeted by Swinging Vic with major bollocking. Next morning we were all dragged out of bed at 0700 and forced to discuss religion all day. Atmosphere among flight cadets got more and more bolshie, and eventually Swinging Vic phoned Cranwell and had us all transported back to base Sunday morning in disgrace. Monday morning No 1s, no coffee, extra duties, wrath of God (aka Wg Cdr Cadets) etc.....but I don't think they ever tried it again!

Pontius Navigator

8th Jan 2019, 16:38

There used to be regular notices about a CofE God bothering course but I don't remember seeing and adverts after the 60s.

Thank you BEagle, Amport House. Maybe they will but some ecumenical and graceless building with a mosque attached instead.

BEagle

8th Jan 2019, 21:57

Old Bricks , I see that Armpit House is yet another very nice piece of defence real estate which will be flogged off by 2020. I wonder whether they'll find another East European crook to buy it?

I guess the future defence god botherers will probably have to do their training in some wretched portakabin city outpost of empire miles from civilisation...

Old Bricks

9th Jan 2019, 12:10

The only other bit of religion that springs to mind from that same period was when the Towers had an official visit from the RC Bishop to the Forces. All RC-registered flight cadets were rounded up to meet the Bish, but, since it was after the university layabouts (like Beags) had left, and we were down to only one annual entry before the GE entries started, it was rapidly apparent that there was a world shortage of RC cadets. "Find more!" came the order from on high, and the plot was cast. The bish would be taken down to the flightline crewrooms to meet RC cadets in flying clothing for coffee, then the bish would be taken up to College Hall to meet more cadets, but taken via HQ to meet the Commandant, allowing enough time for cadets to change into uniform and get back to College Hall before him, where additional non-RC cadets had been rounded up to swell the numbers. Every non-RC was paired with an RC who had to brief him on the name and location of an appropriate RC school that he ought to have attended etc. I don't think the bish was fooled for a minute, but it was a good example of the daft things that we had to put up with in the 60s.

Pontius Navigator

9th Jan 2019, 13:52

OldBricks, not just the gleaming towers. We went mad with black and white paint for an inspection. We ran out of black. As we used it up we added more and more thinners. Eventually we just had black thinners. It dried as quick as it evaporated.

Nil desperandum; as the inspecting officer approached a corner all the manholes around the corner got a quick coat of thinners. Black footprints followed the AOC elsewhere.The

James, any story will be incomplete without such futile irrelevances. It was also a time of discontent in the Services with cancellation of projects such as Skybolt and TSR2 and the bulk of the aircrew on shorter service commissions up to the age of 38.

Yellow Sun

9th Jan 2019, 14:13

James, any story will be incomplete without such futile irrelevances. It was also a time of discontent in the Services with cancellation of projects such as Skybolt and TSR2 and the bulk of the aircrew on shorter service commissions up to the age of 38.

Who recalls the Direct Entry tie? A gold ladder on blue background with only the first 3 rungs intact.

YS:)

Fareastdriver

9th Jan 2019, 14:56

I was Direst Entry and had a great time! Eighteen years of legalised hooliganism.

MPN11

9th Jan 2019, 16:51

Yellow Sun ... oh that tie is a memory!! Never had one, despite being DEC, and mercifully got a PC so never needed it!! :)

Pontius Navigator

10th Jan 2019, 12:47

Who recalls the Direct Entry tie? A gold ladder on blue background with only the first 3 rungs intact.

YS:)
And for some, only two rungs required.

For James, this was a time where you needed to pass 4 or 5 'B' exams before promotion to flt lt. Enter the world of the partial pass. Having taken 5 exams an officer may fail two but have a sufficiently high average that he was awarded a partial pass. The following year he would take the previously failed papers. If his average mark for all 5 fell below the target he would lose his previous partial and need a resit. This gave rise to the professional fg off. All the fun and no responsibility. A 12 year or full career fg off was not unheard of. This happy state ended around early 1970s IIRC when the B was abolished and you merely needed a rec by your CO.

Dougie M

10th Jan 2019, 13:13

When I joined in the early 60's there was a "professional Fg Off" Bond who stated that during his B exams there was an air raid and he had to abandon the classroom to seek shelter. He applied for an honorary pass which was refused so he didn't go for a resit. He was quite happy with his lot as a mid thirties junior officer.

MPN11

10th Jan 2019, 17:11

Gosh! Never knew that! I just took the ‘B’ and became a temporary flt lt before passing the ‘C’. :)

1066

10th Jan 2019, 18:31

Dougie,
As you know by the 80's rank inflation, university entrants, and Spec Aircrew meant everyone was a Flt Lt and Fg Off aircrew became the rare breed.
Pontius,
I started the B as a 5 paper exam and got a partial. By the time I passed the failed papers, some of the papers I passed first time had been scrubbed so I can claim to have passed the 5 paper B. Later I think the B was scrubbed completely.
Then when I started the C it was a 3 paper exam. Another partial and before I could take the one paper I'd failed, the two that I'd passed were scrubbed. I passed the one remaining paper and refused to even start ISS, expecting that if I waited long enough that too would follow and be reduced or scrubbed. No such luck!
1066

MPN11

10th Jan 2019, 18:48

I claim 1st time passes on B, C, ISS and ASC ... so there!

not sure what difference it really made ... getting a PC was the only thing that really mattered.

Pontius Navigator

10th Jan 2019, 19:16

I claim 1st time passes on B, C, ISS and ASC ... so there!

not sure what difference it really made ... getting a PC was the only thing that really mattered.
Like a 1st at Cambridge 😁

Tankertrashnav

11th Jan 2019, 00:08

I took the B in Singapore and there was a bit of a scandal because, as the story went, somebody had phoned a mate who was taking the exam in the UK seven and a half hours later and had read him the question paper (pricey and difficult to organise in 1967, but not impossible). Never did find out if it was true.

Later on in my career about half a dozen of us on the squadron were told to report to the CO's office one day . Once in we were told that he had discovered that none of us had applied to sit the C exam, and that we were to go and get our applications in straight away, no excuses. Well I passed, not that it did me any good as I never advanced any further than flight lieutenant.

MPN11

11th Jan 2019, 08:49

TTN, I have a vague recollection of that time-zone story. I did my B in Singapore in 68, IIRC.

Pontius Navigator

11th Jan 2019, 12:56

TTN, around that time I realised that papers were recycled. Some questions every 2, 3 or 4 years. Flt Safety questions, my weak link, only one or other paper. Year I passed mine we had an FS question in part 1. The following day there was another; it was from their same chapter in the AP. One lucky chap had looked up the Part 1 question that night, read to the end of the chapter and breezed Part 2. The following year I told the candidates the probable questions and ones that would not occur. I was spot on.

Shackman

11th Jan 2019, 14:02

TTN, likewise on a four-engined fighter squadron somewhere in Scotland - although our CO had already entered us all on the next B exam, in one months time! Much midnight oil was burned. The day before the exam a Mickey Finn/taceval was called, and after twelve hours over the North Atlantic we were diverted to Machrihanish so I missed the exam. I think it was two weeks later the B exam was abolished and I became an instant Flt Lt, so the Boss immediately enrolled us all for the next C exams.

James Blatch

1st Apr 2019, 14:10

Mogwi

4th Apr 2019, 13:53

Took my C exam at RAF Bishops Court in norn iron in the early 70's. Flew down from Aldergrove in the mighty Wessex and reported to the examining officer who insisted I remove the 9mm Browning (loaded) from my waist band holster. He was rather startled when I then removed my flak-jacket to reveal my personal Colt .38 auto (loaded) in a concealed shoulder holster.

The memory of the look on his face still makes me chuckle.

Swing the lamp!

Mog

Top West 50

4th Apr 2019, 20:44

langleybaston

4th Apr 2019, 20:56

re. Church, not Church Parade:

at JHQ Rheindahlen where I totalled 9 years in several postings, there were three churches for the various persuasions. There were no parades as such, but Battle of Britain and Remembrance Day were very well attended by all ranks, and in uniform. "Ordinary" Sundays were also well attended and some wore uniform. Because it was a multi-service and multi-national "station"/ "garrison", a wide variety of uniforms could be seen.
Major occasions were followed by a family curry lunch in the Mess.
[And wives wore hats, which I loved!]

MPN11

5th Apr 2019, 10:17

Passed the B then it was abandoned. Same with the C. Finished the 2 year ISS which was then reduced to 18 months. But my luck changed when I completedt the 6 month ASC which had just been crammed into 10 months.Ah, the wonderful 'year' of ASC. I found it most agreeable, even if unaccompanied due to my wife's posting at Brampton. I started the Course with a small advantage over most students ... I already had 3 Staff tours under my belt! (HQ MATO, NATS and 11 Gp)

James Blatch

5th Apr 2019, 13:10

langleybaston

5th Apr 2019, 15:26

Thank you Langley. Do you think the Family Curry and use of uniforms on a Sunday in church were specific to RAFG / overseas and less common in the UK?

Yes I do, although in UK we lived in our own houses and not on a married patch so saw little of Mess or station church weekends. My mess usage was confined to lunch, happy hour, and dining in nights. and the occasional wedding reception on a Saturday.

Being cynical, I think part of the church in uniform thing was because very senior officers attended!

James Blatch

5th Apr 2019, 17:52

I can well imagine. Thanks.

Paying Guest

5th Apr 2019, 18:41

Would definitely agree with Langley about church/Sundays/Mess in the UK based on Coningsby start of and again mid 70s and Leeming late 80s. From the odd occasion when I was dragged there on a Sunday there were very few people present and no one in uniform other than Remembrance Sunday. JHQ as stated by Langley.

MPN11

5th Apr 2019, 19:11

Never, ever, encountered a Church Parade (1965-1993). I must have served on God-less Stations.

Perhaps there was one at IOT (Feltwell, '65) but no recollection of the event.

NRU74

5th Apr 2019, 19:35

Nor me, 61-81

Bill Macgillivray

5th Apr 2019, 19:53

Late '50's - church parade every Sunday (and the unthinkable now - "Fall out"-- ( certain religions) - who remained on the parade ground until the service (?) was complete! Unreal !!

Bill

Pontius Navigator

6th Apr 2019, 08:03

Remember doing the full fig at Kinloss one year, late 70s, no idea why, and vaguely remember all the left footers falling out.

Blossy

6th Apr 2019, 16:02

I remember one particular and very religious C.O. who held church parades (and plenty of rehearsals for them). Everyone thought he must have had flat knees as he spent so much time on them!!

Tankertrashnav

6th Apr 2019, 23:44

Perhaps there was one at IOT (Feltwell, '65) but no recollection of the event.

Not a church parade as such, but after the passing out parade at Feltwell in 1964 most of the course, together with parents, wives etc repaired to the station church, while the handful of left footers (self included) went to the small RC church for our own service. Other than my sister in law's requiem mass in around 2005 it was the last RC Service I ever attended. Been to lots of C of E services since - the architecture and the singing are a lot better!

James Blatch

8th Apr 2021, 17:55

Well, it's taken a while, but The Final Flight is out. Thank you all for your valuable help. Any authenticity errors are entirely mine.

As a thank you to those above who helped, I can send a link to an electronic version of the book (can be loaded onto most devices). Drop me a PM with an email address.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/200x300/blatch_finalflight_ebook_small_265cd0a647ee7871badd388d8197a 41ff713842a.jpg (https://geni.us/thefinalflight)

Alternatively if you feel generous it's available in paperback at Amazon and (at the time of writing) available for pre-order on Kindle. Also available until next week more widely at Barnes & Noble, Kobo, Apple Books etc. (It goes exclusive to Amazon next week).

I hope it will be an enjoyable foray back to the 1960s Royal Air Force for you.

This link will take you to the Amazon page relevant for your country: https://geni.us/thefinalflight

James.