Bundeswehr orders H145 LUH SAR

[chopper2004]

The German Bundeswehr has ordered seven Airbus Helicopters H145 LUH- SAR (Light Utility Helicopter - Search and Rescue) to replace some of the legacy Bell UH-1D operate by the German Army Aviation (Heeresflieger)


https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2018/12/Bundeswehr-orders-H145-search-and-rescue-helicopters.html



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/d6a1bb3a_f77c_43d7_829a_14d52ea53cf2_8819123371a1da328cf584c a11863b463f6e01a9.jpeg

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Hope they don't want to do winching training on it.............

[SASless]

Care to explain or just leave us all guessing?:rolleyes:


https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories/mountain-rescue.html

[[email protected]]

It's not a problem for normal winching with one winch operator on the skids and the winchman/casualty on the wire but, as I understand it, if you want 2 people on the skids (instructor and student) and someone on the wire, the door area is very crowded and the lateral C of G is out of limits - let alone trying to stay OEI in the hover for the training.

Operations fine but HHO training I am led to believe it isn't suitable for.

[SASless]

Nine percent improvement in OEI Hover Performance.....according to Airbus...with a 40% increase in payload.....if I understand what they are saying.

http://www.helicopters.airbus.com/website/en/press/H145-is-best-in-class-for-hoist-operations-with-increased-engine-power_2107.html

[9Aplus]

... if you want 2 people on the skids (instructor and student) and someone on the wire, the door area is very crowded and the lateral C of G is out of limits ...
That means that rescue swimmer + casualty on wire
plus winch operator on skids are out of lateral C of G limits too?

[[email protected]]

That means that rescue swimmer + casualty on wire
plus winch operator on skids are out of lateral C of G limits too? I don't know - all I do know is that many questions have been raised at the new Military Flying Training School about the aircraft and its suitability for live winch training.

SAS that 40% increase in payload figure seems rather misleading - a 40% increase in what? Weight on the wire? AUM of the aircraft for OEI OGE hover? What have they done to the engines to give themselves a 2.5 min OEI capability instead of a 2 min one?

[SASless]

I have no idea....just posted the Airbus link.

[Rigga]

EC/H145's can have the winch on any side (if you buy the kit) If you didn't buy the kit - you probably didn't think deeply enough about what you wanted to do.

Different helicopters are different helicopters and some people try to fit their old habits and comforts into new helicopters that don't conform to their expectations. I had this same expectations problem swapping from AS355 to EC145. Get over it. Adapt.

[FloaterNorthWest]

9 Plus,

Your scenario of a rescue swimmer+casualty on the wire and operator on the skid should be within CofG. The scenario crab describes is two on the wire and an operator plus instructor in the door.

The 40% increase is in USEFUL payload I.e you had a useful payload of 400kg it is then increased by 160kg.

Another deciding factor for performance is whether your controlling authority allow you to use 30 sec power or 2 min power in your contingency planning.

The performance will also be affected depending if TU206 has been embodied giving increased 2 minute OEI power.

Crab,

How do MFTS fit into the above two statements?

FNW

[SASless]

Crab, remind me of the hover performance of a Whirlwind after an engine failure will you.....for that matter....without an engine failure.

[Georg1na]

SAS - the Whirlwind 9 was a whizzer at this sort of thing.......................!! (Obviously 'cos it was crewed by the RN!) and could keep up with high performance fixed wing.............

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1370/whirlwind_01_6__57867ee1b95d84ed2cb7f1876a1e6ab133cf139d.jpg

[[email protected]]

FNW - you would have to have some definition of what useful payload is - MAUM minus ZFW or MAUM minus Basic Wt or some other figure to apply that 40% - it sounds like a typical manufacturer's fudge. Is there an increase of 40% over the mass for OGE hover OEI using 2 min power?

As for MFTS - which continues to be so bad the students have released a 'music' video about it which is doing the rounds on Whatsapp - I don't know if they have that engine mod or not, just that the 145 is a retrograde step from the 412 for winch training.

Sas - apparently the Whirlwind used to winch itself down to the casualty! You do know the RAF stopped using those many, many years ago???

[FloaterNorthWest]

Crab,

Useful load (or Disposable load): The difference between maximum gross take-off weight and basic weight empty. It is, in other words, all the load which is removable, which is not permanently part of the airplane. It includes the usable fuel, the pilot, crew, passengers, baggage, freight, etc.

FNW

[Flying Bull]

- let alone trying to stay OEI in the hover for the training.

Operations fine but HHO training I am led to believe it isn't suitable for.

What are you talking about.
Even with worst temperature at sea level with no wind assisting, you have 3100 kg for 2 min and over 3450 kg for 30 sec.
So with empty weight around 2300 kg, plus 6 crew on board/on winch you can have a good hours fuel and be always be able to hover for 2 ½ min OEI (add the 30 sec to the 2 min, cause you can use both)
Time enough to get the hoist operation finished or clear enough, that you can transition into forward flight.
Any wind will dramatically increase possible weight.

on the other hand, why put an instructor on the skid?
You can do that in the initial phase, catching a wooden cross with lines, after that, the winchoperator should be fit enough to work the winch.
If you insist on an instructor, he could look out of the other door or use the the tail camera...

Three on one side (SWAT) isn ˋt any problem.

[[email protected]]

If you insist on an instructor, he could look out of the other door or use the the tail camera. so how does the instructor intervene if the student gets it wrong? How do you teach stretcher entry to the cabin or even double lift entry to the cabin?

The student can't learn what real winching is like with a wooden cross on the hook and if you just want to practice his voice marshalling you don't need to winch at all

As for the weights - I am just going on what I have been told - perhaps the empty weight of the MFTS aircraft is greater than yours. The Metropolitan police had plenty of plans to use the winch on their 145s but I was told the problem was being safe OEI for training

[FloaterNorthWest]

Crab,

The MFTS aircraft are lighter than Flying Bull’s.

The Met Police aircraft are older C2 aircraft not the newer D2 used by MFTS. They are chalk and cheese.

FNW

[Ascend Charlie]

How do you teach stretcher entry to the cabin or even double lift entry to the cabin?

Do it on the ground. Sit the stretcher on the ground next to the skid (he should already know how to lift it to the skids) or put both teabags on the ground, and pick them up from skid level. Instructor can stand outside to watch. Simples. Tcchhkkt!

OR: do it on a simple rig in the hangar.

[SASless]

The Sikorsky H-19, upon which the Whirlwind was modeled, I got acquainted with in Sunny Southern Alabama during the summer one year....was grossly overpowered with its 600 she Pratt and Whitney R1340 Radial engine.

As we dashed off down the takeoff lane to the south....with the steep downward sloping ground at the end of the pavement....the acceleration would pin your ears back right till the front landing gears began to shimmy against the bungee cords....at which time you were done accelerating but usually could not stop before going over the precipice.

She made good pilots out of you as to learning how to nurse Rotor RPM.

I cannot recall even thinking of winching with them.

[John Eacott]

The Sikorsky H-19, upon which the Whirlwind was modeled, I got acquainted with in Sunny Southern Alabama during the summer one year....was grossly overpowered with its 600 she Pratt and Whitney R1340 Radial engine.

As we dashed off down the takeoff lane to the south....with the steep downward sloping ground at the end of the pavement....the acceleration would pin your ears back right till the front landing gears began to shimmy against the bungee cords....at which time you were done accelerating but usually could not stop before going over the precipice.

She made good pilots out of you as to learning how to nurse Rotor RPM.

I cannot recall even thinking of winching with them.


Winching?! Try the Sproule net :cool: :p


Getting back on topic, crab@ does seem to wish for the days of the Sea King cabin, big door, plenty of headroom, coffee maker, etc. Unfortunately the call for such as the H145 is to meet a different tasking group and I've no doubt that this variant will meet the needs of the Bundeswehr. Lateral GG, payload, etc are more than adequate for their tasking: even the lowly old BK117, grandad of the 145, had way more lateral CG than was expected. Having the winch on the left also helps offset the lateral, although many Australian operators opted for a right hand winch fit (after market) and one requirement of the fit was/is to move the battery from the nose to behind the left engine.

[SASless]

Young Master Eacott....how dare you suggest SAR winching can be done using something other than a Strop.....have you not heard the wailing from some folks when any mention of the USCG and their Billy Pugh Basket gets made?

Then if one has the actual temerity to remind those folks that there is a modern concept called the "Rescue Swimmer" that LEAVES the Winch Wire and goes to the person needing rescue.....well Sir....indeed!

When that happens, the TV Remote gets dropped and cheeks arise from the Recliner in protest.

[[email protected]]

Then if one has the actual temerity to remind those folks that there is a modern concept called the "Rescue Swimmer" that LEAVES the Winch Wire and goes to the person needing rescue.....well Sir....indeed! hardly a modern concept SAS - but the RN stopped using divers for SAR a few years ago and went back to using a winchman. Bristow don't use rescue swimmers for UKSAR so I'm not sure what your point is:)

FNW - I'll bow to your superior knowledge - I will ask more questions about the issues with the MFTS aircraft and winching training.

AC - you would do all of that ground and static winch training as a natural precursor to doing it live on the aircraft but the first time the student winchop does it with a real stretcher and all the associated hazards that provides, you want an instructor looking over his shoulder. Managing a spinning stretcher as you approach the skids is not something you want to learn on the fly.

[Flyting]

How do you teach stretcher entry to the cabin or even double lift entry to the cabin?
like any German would do.... you build a centre for it :}
Heli Rescue Hoist Trainer (https://www.amst.co.at/en/aerospace-medicine/training-simulation-products/helicopter-rescue-hoist-trainer/)

[9Aplus]

@FNW thank you for clarification...

[Flying Bull]

Others seem happy using a winch on H145
(Police BadenWürtemberg) for mountrescue
https://im.baden-wuerttemberg.de/de/service/presse-und-oeffentlichkeitsarbeit/pressemitteilung/pid/polizeihubschrauberstaffel-baden-wuerttemberg-unterstuetzt-bergwachten-im-land/?fbclid=IwAR1js4fAX9nbayu-k4sZqMCNMUiEKO3y20s1mSNhPADVvrubx3ZbO_wZiMg

[[email protected]]

FB - I did say it was fine for operations but questions had been asked about it in the training role.

Flyting - yes some of our guys have been to see that setup - very impressive.

[minigundiplomat]

Germany also ordered some H215 airframes for SAR, though my issue isn’t the choice of aircraft, either H215 or H145. What disappoints me, is this spend on primarily German products, is no doubt part of the plot to lift German defence spending towards the NATO minimum, whilst enhancing a domestic capability which adds nothing, capability wise, to the NATO orbat.

Personally, I’d let Putin have Germany, rather than see another Brit, American, Canadian or other nationality soldier die on their behalf... because that’s where this will end.

[chopper2004]

Germany also ordered some H215 airframes for SAR, though my issue isn’t the choice of aircraft, either H215 or H145. What disappoints me, is this spend on primarily German products, is no doubt part of the plot to lift German defence spending towards the NATO minimum, whilst enhancing a domestic capability which adds nothing, capability wise, to the NATO orbat.

Personally, I’d let Putin have Germany, rather than see another Brit, American, Canadian or other nationality soldier die on their behalf... because that’s where this will end.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2018/12/German-Federal-Police-strengthens-Super-Puma-fleet-with-delivery-of-three-H215s.html

The H215 is for their Feds - Bundespolizei ....however 9 years ago the Bundespolizei deployed trio of AS332L1 and pair of Bell 212 ( before their retirement) were embarked onboard USS Boxer alongside the Flying Leathernecks ACE-MEU (Special Operations Capable)....off the coast of Somalia for some op with KSK/ GSG-9...possible hostage rescue ?

FYI in April 2003 the USS Boxer hosted then HMM-261 ‘White Knights’ which was part of Task Force 20 which rescued Pvt Jessica Lynch in Iraq.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/0a5fc95c_8f86_4dbb_a583_d2995101072b_05a35da836385ca466f7940 94ca574d683257859.jpeg

[[email protected]]

Personally, I’d let Putin have Germany, rather than see another Brit, American, Canadian or other nationality soldier die on their behalf... because that’s where this will end. rather a blinkered view MGD - where would Putin look next if Germany rolled over? France next to ensure warm water ports and then probably UK because our military hasn't the capability to defend ourselves alone.

So then you have to wait for the USA to join in or have a European Army to defend Europe........

[skadi]

Isn't the Feldberg just under 5000ft ? Not much "real' mountain rescue going on there, I think :-p
Other operators like ARA in Austria or ADAC in Germany are using the H145 with winch at altitudes around 10 000ft and are obviously quite happy ....

skadi

[Praet]

Germany also ordered some H215 airframes for SAR
The three new H215 now coming into service (plus a 4th in 2019) are to be operated by the Federal Police (Bundespolizei) specifically to support the Central Command for Maritime Emergencies (Havariekommando). Not for SAR, but as dedicated resources for aerial reconnaisance, personnel and equipment transport during maritime incidents at sea - for example pollution control, oil recovery, shipboard fire fighting. Naturally, they would be available to be tasked as second-line SAR resources - however, the primary SAR role as per ICAO and support of the maritime search and rescue (lifeboat) service will continue to be provided by the German Navy. Currently with Sea King (or rather what little is left in operational condition) and NH90 from 2022.

[Spunk]

..and NH90 from 2022.. :E 2022 yeah right, that was a good one.

[[email protected]]

Currently with Sea King (or rather what little is left in operational condition) and NH90 from 2022. Welcome to where the RAF and RN were 5 years ago with no money for anything new and shiny.....:(

[Flying Bull]

Isn't the Feldberg just under 5000ft ? Not much "real' mountain rescue going on there, I think :-p
Isn’t a mountain just a big pile of rocks?
There are steep and remote areas, where a winch is quite useful.
The instructors, which do the mountain training course with the German police flying school, where pilots from the border police and the different german states train together in the Alps tell, that with the 145 it is nearly about impossible to train flying to the limits, cause the 145 still operates with bleed valves open, mostly below the so-called blue line, which indicates safe OEI operation capability, which would make an engine failure at approach/departure an non event.
Asked, to take firewood up to a mountain hut, where outsidelandings are practiced, the 135 crews calculated, if they could take one or two bundels, the 145 crew said, we take them all 😜
Doing checkrides at normal altitudes, you can’t fly the proper OEI procedures, if you have a cloudbase around 1500 feet ground, cause if you use the 30sec and 2min power flying the book, you will rocket into the sky on one engine witch ROC between 1500 to 2000 feet /min....
So from the power available, AEO and OEI you really can go with the 145 😉

[melmothtw]

Personally, I’d let Putin have Germany, rather than see another Brit, American, Canadian or other nationality soldier die on their behalf... because that’s where this will end.

You're 47 MGD, not 87. You didn't live through the War, so stop pretending like you did. Also, I think you're confused - no Brit, American, Canadian or other nationality ever died on Germany's behalf in any war I can remember.

[SASless]

I certainly hope MGD is not currently serving in any military right now as such a view might be seen as suspect.