CHAIRMAN CUTTING A DEAL

[Kendra689]

Dear fellow HKAOA Members & Non-Members (as this affects you as well).It would appear a screen shot calling into questions the true motivation of our Chairman has fallen into the public domain. Although the What’s App communication allegedly happened a few months ago, this now has increased importance given that we are soon to be presented a deal for the Membership to vote on under the guise of rule 20.4. This rule is actually being used against the Membership by both the company and those individuals on the GC, who want this deal to be voted in at any cost for their own personal gain. To those on the GC who simply want an extension of ARAPA by another 10 years and the Training Ban lifted so they can become Training Captains, and ultimately get a desk and chair on the third floor – BEWARE.

The Membership is becoming increasingly aware that there are behind the scenes actions being rushed through by certain persuasive members of the Committee, to get a deal done at all costs, irrespective of the communications continually being sent by official HKAOA Communications stating otherwise. Management desperately want the Training Ban gone. We have wasted two years on HPE negotiations to no avail, and now we are negotiating a PEACE CLAUSE whilst two of the original four items – namely HKPA and Pay are being given lip service. Have the FAU been asked to sign a Peace Clause? NO. Why? Because

Management respect them – whilst they laugh at us and our lack of will power to pushback industrially.

Our colleagues at the FAU have negotiated considerable pay rises in under two weeks, whilst we are apparently lowering our negotiating limits or box to help Management avoid any further impasses, as is evident from that screen shot. Fellow HKAOA Members - do not allow certain individuals with their own selfish agenda to destroy your Union and future contracts, by voting in a deal that ties our hand behind our backs for the unforeseeable future. To even be discussing a peace clause is justification alone to say NO to whatever proposal is placed in front of us. This applies regardless of whether it is recommended, not recommended or given an abstain vote by the GC.

Now wonder a previous DFO called us Million Dollar Morons – it’s time to stop being scared of our own shadows and stand up for what is right and just. The world aviation industry is short of good quality trained and experienced air crew, as is evident by our ever increasing resignation rate. This is not 2001 yet they are playing chicken with us, to see if we can blink before the annual profits are announced.

Unfortunately, it now appears there are people within our own Union ranks who are helping Management to try and suck us in again to sign an inferior deal to that which was originally offered in 2016.

Whatever this deal contains – consider what we want as collective group of aviation professionals.

Firstly, do we want viable contracts and a future working environment?

Secondly, do we want a Union that is effective and strong, or an Association that is by name only and is emasculated as an employee representative body.

Consider these two questions in conjunction with this screen shot and draw your own conclusion.

[Loopdeloop]

It’s pretty simple, for me anyway. Significantly better than TA16 or vote no. Profits up, great external market & a requirement to retain pilots. Should be a great deal!

[Bob Hawke]

So what's in it for the Chairman and his cronies, I wonder, or perhaps they are compromised? Agreeing to no floor limit in negotiations - because the real negotiations limits failed in so far as the Company is concerned - when the AOA should have walked away and left a demand list on the GMA's desk. Instead DS instructs the NC to do anything, take anything. He needs to be removed. Disgraceful.

You DS, should be ashamed of yourself if this is true and if for any reason a deal worse than TA16 is offered with a BS Peace clause worse than the past clause 7 and you recommend it to the Membership, then you Sir, in my opinion, will be the most despicable Chairman the union has ever had and you can expect a huge exodus of members shortly after. Goal Achieved?

[kenfoggo]

If that What’s App screenshot is genuine then not only do I feel like resigning from the HKAOA but I also want a refund of all my subscriptions for the time I thought that they were representing my interests but were in fact pursuing their own agenda. So basically since the current Chairman was elected.

[Numero Crunchero]

Posting messages mid conversation can be dangerously misleading as it gets taken out of context. This screenshot is in the middle of a conversation. At 938 the question was asked "no floor?". And the response was "no floor best effort". This was clarified in the following messages. At 1002 DSS even says "The box hasn't changed....." So it was clear within 24minutes that nothing had changed. The following messages discuss how to proceed - ie given that HKPA didn't meet the floor, as the rest of the offers would go to a vote the aim was to get the best HKPA offer possible -hence the "No Floor - Best effort" comment. This needed to be clarified due to contradictions between the GFBFA and 20.4. But I will leave that conversation for AOA forums - we really do need to sort them out IMHO.

So I can assure you the 'floor' (ie the minimum acceptable position to even consider taking the offer to the membership for a vote) was in place at all times during negotiations this year. The floor is an absolute minimum - it was reached in three categories but not in one. And in that one that failed to reach the floor - we got our "best effort" offer.

Rule 20.4 was introduced before the GFBFA - they don't work well together which is why the GC tried to get rid of it in 2017. But there was insufficient interest in voting it out - so it remains. And as such the current HKAOA GC is bound to abide by it.

Just so we are 100% clear - the offer on the table reaches the minimum set by the original floor for three out of the four items. And yes I mean "floor" - the minimum. That was all that was achievable given the industrial pressure placed thus far.

As to whether it is a good offer or not - well I will be surprised if anyone gets excited by it. Pretty much like setting a low reserve when selling your house and having the highest bid at your floor. You have a deal - but you are none too excited about it.


Like it or not - 20.4 constrains the GC in its' actions(see below). Then democracy kicks in - is that such a bad thing?


20.4 excerpt.When, in the opinion of the Association’s negotiators, a conclusion has been reached, whether successful or not, then the results of the negotiation will be referred to the General Committee. The General Committee will, in turn, refer the results to the Membership with a recommendation.

[supercadet]

Yes numero cruncho is correct that it took 24 minutes to do a complete 180 on his comments. It took that long for the GC to contact the chairman and question his statement. What is also not shared is the reaction from the chairman throwing his toys out of the pram and making false accusations of rule violations regarding code of conduct on communication internally within the NC and GC.

So yes it is unfair to share only a snippet in time. However that still doesn't explain why those comments were ever made in the first place.

A seperate thread could be started on the interpretation between the GFBFA and rule 20.4.

Industrial peace should only come if all the outstanding bargaining items are resolved. That's in the members best interests. However we seem to be placating to the company and not the membership.

The bar for an acceptable deal was set when TA16 was rejected and the members completed the most comprehensive survey ever done by the AOA which 75% of the members completed.

Time will tell if the 3 out of the 4 agreed items meet that minimum level the members expect.

[Apple Tree Yard]

"Time will tell if the 3 out of the 4 agreed items meet that minimum level the members expect."

.....and if they don't, the ONLY answer is an emphatic NO. We will NOT be bought off cheaply. I would rather CC and TB until my dying breath if this company does not show me some respect and value.

[main_dog]

Numero, how is 1% on pay, inferior Arapa to what we had and pretty poor RPs (a step backwards even, from a B747 point of view) achieving 3 out of 4 items?

[fire wall]

If those numbers are correct then it is no from me.

[Farman Biplane]

NC, your auction analogy of buyer/vendor meeting at the reserve price might have been fine years ago at the beginning of negotiations where the outlook was negative and it was perceived as a “falling market”
The fuel debacle is about to be concluded and I would suggest we will be approaching a “rising market” soon, where the vendor is very much not happy to just make the reserve!
A premium is warranted to release the TB/CC and enter into a handcuffed agreement.
BTW do you have an update on the fuel hedging situation remaining?

[Brokeidiot]

It is rather worrying when the GMA sings the praises of the NC... that kind of leads one to wonder which side they were actually fighting for.

[Numero Crunchero]

It is rather worrying when the GMA sings the praises of the NC... that kind of leads one to wonder which side they were actually fighting for.

Ha ha - exactly.

If it makes you feel any better I am reliably informed the lead negotiator is disliked by the previous GMA, COSDO for sure - and a few others whose noses were put out of joint due to his lack of filter when negotiating.


Whether anyone praises or likes anyone is unimportant - the bottom line is you have your say with a vote. And I am ok with that. I have been here far too long to worry about what might happen - I just deal with what does actually happen.

And for the record - I wanted a pony as my bribe - but didn't get one;-(

[Slasher1]

It's all about getting the new guys trained and on POS 18. That's the holy grail. A rolling purge who doesn't know any of the past.

CMP's role in this is to figure out how to efficiently staff without basings, and (absent rigs) have maximum availability/flexibility without paying for it.

[Gnadenburg]

Indeed Slasher. It's that simple. Pilots bang on about supply and demand as if they are Keynesian economists yet don't get the simplicity that it doesn't make sense to train your own low cost replacement. Well, the KA guys will have a bit of a wake up call to this soon.

[cxorcist]

Indeed Slasher. It's that simple. Pilots bang on about supply and demand as if they are Keynesian economists yet don't get the simplicity that it doesn't make sense to train your own low cost replacement. Well, the KA guys will have a bit of a wake up call to this soon.

I’ve never understood any trainer that trained anyone on a lesser contract. This includes A training B, B training C or F, now C training POS18. It’s unbelievable how stupid pilots are. Million dollar morons are now just poor morons!!! They stripped themselves of the millions.

[Flex88]

How can you cut a deal without all the pieces of the pie being visible on the table ❓

January should bring the "new" basings "Evaluation & Strategy" from Flt Ops. This fact has been openly promulgated to all crew quite some months ago by ex DFO..

WHAT IS IT ????

Not watching the whole chess board is done at your own peril :eek:

[bobrun]

Until now I trusted the HKAOA but I now have serious doubt. Trying to spin « what was said » in the whatsapp discussion doesn’t really help. When the explanations for what was said are confusing and murky, it’s usually because it’s a load of bullocks. It’s starting to read like a certain persident’s tweets....contradictions and misdirection. If there’s a vote on an offer which contain reductions of benefits for some, some serious questions will have to be answered by the HKAOA. Failing to represent the best interest of the members should have consequences.

[1200firm]

RF was the best and most effective Chairman the HKAOA has ever had by a factor of about triple. Union was dead the moment you voted him out. Remember the PV endorsed bogus candidate GF, designed to take votes away from RF? Remember that?

[Frogman1484]

RF was the best and most effective Chairman the HKAOA has ever had by a factor of about triple. Union was dead the moment you voted him out. Remember the PV endorsed bogus candidate GF, designed to take votes away from RF? Remember that?

bollocks...he was the worst we had!!!

Ask him why he is not answering the question on the HKAOA forum on what happens the the claim we were meant to submit when he was chairman? He ran the most disfunctional GC we have ever had. He lied to the membership during the last TA vote. He did not allow the NC from releasing critical information about the last vote, because he did not agree with a few points! First time that has ever happened in our unions history.

By by the way the reason why we did not submit the claim, is because he was so busy commuting back to NZ that he forgot... but he will never admit the truth behind that!

[fire wall]

That is disgraceful.
How dare he visit his family !
Unfortunately the truth is that the filing of the shp claim is not a one man job, but hey don't let that stop you throwing mud


QUOTE=Frogman1484;10336375]

bollocks...he was the worst we had!!!

Ask him why he is not answering the question on the HKAOA forum on what happens the the claim we were meant to submit when he was chairman? He ran the most disfunctional GC we have ever had. He lied to the membership during the last TA vote. He did not allow the NC from releasing critical information about the last vote, because he did not agree with a few points! First time that has ever happened in our unions history.

By by the way the reason why we did not submit the claim, is because he was so busy commuting back to NZ that he forgot... but he will never admit the truth behind that![/QUOTE]

[morningcoffee]

Firewall,

He was the President at the time, can you explain if he had any responsibilities at all in that position since forgetting SHP is/was a pretty major fu*k up. Kind of think that looking out for the workforce should have been job #1 well before personal crusades...........

I'll admit I had the slim chance of $204K coming my way, which may or may not match your adulation, fawning and general gushing over RF.

Do you not think the membership is owed a simple apology?

[cxorcist]

Ugh, focus on the true enemy gents. CX loves this!

[Liam Gallagher]

I'm with cxorcist. Take it up with RF on the forums.

Also, perhaps pay more attention to what the current GC is doing, not the previous. 2 GC members have resigned from the GC this week. That doesn't sound healthy. Perhaps your current leaders need to be asked some questions.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

probably worth asking why they left the GC, it may not be because of the current leaders. In some cases personal issues arise and it means they no longer have time to serve on the GC

[spleener]

I'm with cxorcist. Take it up with RF on the forums.

Also, perhaps pay more attention to what the current GC is doing, not the previous. 2 GC members have resigned from the GC this week. That doesn't sound healthy. Perhaps your current leaders need to be asked some questions.

+1

Get a [HKAOA] room please.

[Amber Vibes]

I thought I read somewhere that DS et als. came right out of the gate w/ concessions before "negotiations" even began. IIRC he himself revealed that nugget before the POS18 round. That should have set off alarm bells for everyone... He always seems to be radio silent through all of the fires, including now. Not exactly characteristics of a leader....

[NotHere]

When the chairman said no floor.... he wasn't kidding, what a utter disgrace

Surely he meant 3rd floor..........can see him there anytime soon after this........................

[RAT Management]

Next stop DFO....

[mngmt mole]

Why is it only RL (and sounding increasingly frantic) that is trying to defend this appalling proposal? Where is DS? Why on earth did the AOA endorse this? There is NOTHING worth endorsing in what is the worst offer ever from our discredited management. NO excuse for this lame AOA exec to endorse. None.

[Kendra689]

Apparently at the Focus Night RL was advising members to vote NO. So the idiots who negotiated the deal are now recommending a NO vote but the general committee is recommending a YES vote. Amateurs.

[Numero Crunchero]

Apparently at the Focus Night RL was advising members to vote NO. So the idiots who negotiated the deal are now recommending a NO vote but the general committee is recommending a YES vote. Amateurs.

Ha ha - really? That's what he said?

People hear what they want to.


I think what was said was more along the lines of - if you do nothing, you get a nothing result. We have done nothing but CC and TB for a few years and this is the result - a HKPA offer lower than TA16. So if the intent is to vote no and do nothing for the next 2-3 years, what will the result be? Membership survey indicates that the majority will not ramp things up - yes the vocal 5% here and on forums are willing to - but the silent majority are NOT.

We have around 200TC/STC/BTC. We have lost maybe 20-30% in 3 years. Looking at demographics we are due to lose 11 more over the next two years. So that will reduce training capacity by about 5%. KA have freed up around 38TCs but not sure how many are 330 vs 320? Our training load last year was less than a third of what it was in 2015 - so we have a lot of excess slack in training at this moment. We can more than double the training load in 2019 - I suspect the 2018 under load was much in part due to the 2 SO ops - it would have saved around 130 FO slots for them. Plus we recruited around 100 less than planned.

So will the TB work in time? We need about 50TCC/STCs or so for the minimum level of licensing(though some sims can be done by those over 65). We need around 5 or so to cover RA55/65 departures(CN/FO/SO courses) For attrition we would need maybe 30ish to replace say 100 pilots. We are due to lose around 34 more TC/STC/BTC over the next 5 years so that will reduce their current training capacity by 15%! (again assuming no one leaves the union to join training)

So is the TB the silver bullet everyone assumes?

Focus night
So what was ACTUALLY said was - if it is a yes vote, make it 51% so CX don't think it was over generous - if it is a no vote, make it 95% so they know how unhappy we are. But keep in mind - if you continue to do nothing then nothing is what you will get as it will take years for the TB to bite. You think we will keep the same resignation rate of TCs? Maybe the TCs who resigned are all those that would take the moral high ground of leaving. The rest will be on good overtime. So what rate will we lose TCs in future? What rate will others cross the line?


What was also said at a focus night was - even if the NC and GC were incompetent, the membership get to decide by a democratic vote. So please enjoy your conspiracy theories - they make for fun bar talk. I still haven't got my pony but I am hopeful.

[kenfoggo]

Numero Crunchero, how many Members have quit the HKAOA since the “Yes” recommendation by the GC ?

[cxorcist]

Numero Crunchero, how many Members have quit the HKAOA since the “Yes” recommendation by the GC ?

I’m guessing very few. Why? Because they want to vote NO first. Then they will quit, and the HKAOA will officially become an eunuch, almost there...

[mngmt mole]

I have a simple question for Numero Cruncher (and the rest of the GC/NC). How could you possibly "recommend" this appalling offer to the membership? Yes, you can present it, but "recommend" it? No credibility left whatsoever. In fact, I suspect you may have killed off the AOA. The recommendation was bad enough, but your constant efforts to justify your decision is only leaving an even more bitter taste in peoples mouths. First we'll vote this monstrosity down, then we'll turf out the current leadership of the AOA.

[kenfoggo]

And then.......what? Mngmt Mole? What will you do?

[Air Profit]

Ken, MM and I (and many like us) will do what we've always done. Vote our conscience and deal with the outcome. We've rejected the company's proposals (final, according to them) before, and they have come back with more pay and benefits. This is the worst proposal in my career. It's an insult and a shot across the bow's of any career worth having at CX. At this point, I would rather force the issue and determine once and for all whether there is a career at CX or not. Voting "yes" on this monstrosity will only empower the management to strip away the last vestiges of value. So take your childish taunts elsewhere. You sound like a management sycophant.

(and as to MM's question to the GC/NC, yes...how on earth could you "recommend" this sickening proposal?)

[Threethirty]

If the company had offered a 5% pay cut the NC would have recommended a yes vote!

[reazasassain]

Sorry but we need to stop the Bull ****. Numerocruncho is trying to justify why you are getting a piece of crap offer. If your leverage is proportional to the quality of the offer then you are being sold short. One of the duties of your representation is to take responsibility and be accountable. They are tasked with increasing the leverage of the membership and acting in your best interests. Unfortunately since the lame duck Sprinkle Soligo has taken over he has done nothing to escalate CC. In fact he has only worked with the company to provide concessions amongst the pilots, HPE was a prime example where he was committing an astronomical amount of concessions that would have cost you well over a Billion dollars, yes that's with a "B" BILLION. However the GC was not blind to this and realized that there was no way in hell the membership would ever vote for such a pathetic offer and HPE failed miserably costing the AOA millions in the process.

Fast forward to today and now you are presented with another concessionary piece of **** offer which was facilitated by the lame duck Chairman. He has not acted in your best interests and has let the CC strategy weaken as a result. The special levy was meant to be used as a tool to increase the pressure but then it was only used to fill the coffers of the association. When it comes to credibility you would be hard pressed to find any in the leadership. It is rumored that he even lied about resigning from training. Other questions have been raised about his status while on sick leave. Was he compromised and is he fit to lead the 2400 members of the HKAOA?

I would like to see a leader who would not present an offer to the members when it falls significantly short of an acceptable offer.

Another quote that was made at the focus night was from Daryl, he said it takes courage to say yes. How about it takes courage to lead.

So RL please stop trying to spin this crap because deep down you know it is wrong and unacceptable.

[Amber Vibes]

Amen. The fish rots from the head.

[Flying Clog]

Amen to the Assassin

[Numero Crunchero]

The strongest I have seen the union, in my time here anyway, was 2001. We had around 94-95% membership. We had a 92% YES vote for limited industrial action(LIA) - it was for the Maximum Safety Strategy(MSS). MSS was basically a go slow campaign.
I can tell you as I analysed the results in real time back in 2001 that the response was very underwhelming. As in, the increase in 15+min delays was barely into double digits. So whilst many talk the talk, few walk the walk. I was an FO at the time and I did my part - but the CNs I flew with mostly didn't.
Now given that incredible strength and unity, we waited another 7 years for a payrise(for B scales - none for A obviously) and even that was imposed(2008).

Now why was that? Well - three main factors.
1) the 49ers definitely took the wind out of the sails of many - especially most of the captains i flew with
2) we gradually lost membeship from mid 90s to 50% a few years later due to high subs(to support the 49ers) and the recruitment ban(obvsiously they couldn't join)
3) and by far the most important, bad timing - 9-11 happened two months after.

So why am I bringing this up - because right now we have a **** situation. Whether the yes or no vote prevails there are many suggesting they are leaving the AOA.

So that gives us point 2
Point 1 - I would suggest from survey results I have seen and talking to many, the membership is NOT as militant or cohesive as we were in 2001. So if it is NO, what is the plan?
Point 3 - what is the wild card? A downturn due to the US/China trade dispute? HNA going bankrupt with lots of pilots looking for jobs on COS18? Who knows - hopefully nothing - but seems like there is always something around the corner.


So if the plan is to vote NO fine - it is a democracy - but then have a plan for after. Or is everyone going to blame the GC and DSS? If you wanted a militant leader to take us where you wanted to go why didn't one run? If you think the majority want to be more militant, start a motion - there are plenty of whatsapp groups doing a great job of whinging, blaming the HKAOA for no results. So do something about it - or just keep blaming everyone but yourselves for the inaction you partake in.

I have heard it all before many times - everyone is a keyboard or bar warrior. But how many stand up when needed? From my own experience, especially in 2001, you would be unpleasantly surprised.


What I would urge everyone though - DON'T leave the HKAOA. Membership dropped to 50% after 2001 and we got ZERO payrises for 7 years despite record profits. So you will save 1% or so but cost yourself in career earnings.

OK - off my soapbox;-)

[Progress Wanchai]

In 2001 not just the tragedy of 9-11 happened, but a week later Ansett collapsed and the pilot shortage disappeared overnight.

No reasonable argument encourages a fear of the unknown future.
But no reasonable argument encourages ignorance of differing scenarios. Rarely does does anything in life play out how we think it will. Particularly given how Swire react to anything.
Take a data privacy breach for example. Who would have predicted they put their collective heads up their butts for 7 months.
Yet somehow they’ll act rationally with industrial relations. Hopefully they do. But it’d be completely out of character.

[kenfoggo]

Numero Crunchero- if there is a mass exodus from the HKAOA it will be the GC’s fault. By recommending a “Yes” vote they brought into stark reality for many the futility of being in a Union that simply acts as a conduit for the unrestricted imposition of Management policy. Quite simply there is no reason to be part of the Union which does not protect it’s Members.

[Progress Wanchai]

No one disputes we are poorly lead. But I largely think the GC is an accurate cross section of the membership, which after all is who the union is.

Next time you’re at dispatch, look at the tables, the crews and their sign on time.
Look at the commuters and their W patterns.
Listen to the trainers/777 crew talk about their EFP.
Then ask yourself, should the phone ever ring putting you on a “golf day”, do you trust the above colleagues to comply? I wouldn’t trust them not to put any details of a “golf” day on Facebook.

kenfoggo, you’re right to question the purpose of being an AOA member, but it’s not solely due to a weak GC that has run out of ideas. It’s also due to a membership that values self before group.

In 99/00/01 this union was strong and united. Then a combination of company action and external factors conspired to weaken us to the point it took nearly a decade to recover. As you rightly point out, we are a weak union now. So I’m not sure how you expected the NC to pull a rabbit out of a rather battered hat. I’m sure we’ll vote this underwhelming offer down, then proudly declare that we’ve sent the company a clear message.
Then the trainers will keep training.
The commuters will keep commuting.
The 777 crew will continue to collect their EFP.
Crew will be at dispatch early with their iPads ready to go.
OCN’s will continue to be acknowledged.
And the wheels will keep on turning.
But hey, the members have shown backbone. They sent a resounding NO.

[Numero Crunchero]

Numero Crunchero- if there is a mass exodus from the HKAOA it will be the GC’s fault. By recommending a “Yes” vote they brought into stark reality for many the futility of being in a Union that simply acts as a conduit for the unrestricted imposition of Management policy. Quite simply there is no reason to be part of the Union which does not protect it’s Members.

Hey mate
in 2001 I was on the GC that recommended NO to the vote - that was pre rule 20.4 so the membership never got to vote on it. Over the next few years membership fell to 50%

So explain to me how the GC recommending Yes or No helps the situation?

Personally I think it is better for the membership to decide - that way no one can blame the GC for a Yes or No vote. Well, actually, many pilots don't like to take personal responsibility so I am sure they will sit back and blame everyone but themselves - and by everyone, clearly the NC, GC and DSS. Obviously CX has no part to play in this - if only we had a leader that said 'strike'- 100% of the members would literally walk off the job. Survey results suggest an ability to act far from this. If people can't be brave answering a survey what are they going to be like in real life?

So what do you want? Escalate? And what does that look like? We did escalate in 2001.

So yeah - rant and rave but please, do nothing, and then hold everyone else accountable for our misfortunes.

[kenfoggo]

Numero - I don’t think that any of my postings can be considered a rant nor even a rave . Like you I have been here since before the last dose of unpleasantness which resulted in the 49ers and so I am deeply pragmatic about what the HKAOA can achieve , or more pertinently CANNOT achieve. But I do think that the Union should provide some kind of buffer between an aggressive, confrontational Management and the Members. To recommend a “Yes” vote seemed to fail us all. Perhaps there is some substance in remaining in the HKAOA just to vote “NO” but ultimately what will happen? Nothing. Therefore I see no reason to remain engaged with a Union which does not act as a Union.
No rant.
I just do not see the point.

[Threethirty]

When there is nothing to gain from voting yes or no, people will vote no out of principle at what is being offered. I think it's reached the stage where most pilots realise after this the AOA is finished, a done deal; little more than a social club with insurance benefits. Nobody's going to go on strike but that NO vote will feel good regardless!!

[FUANNA]

Allowing the juniors to vote over terms and conditions of the seniors, and vice versa is pathetic and illogical.

The only answer here is: No.

[RAT Management]

Fuanna, 100% Agree with your post. So spot on, and I am amazed we even allow this sort of crap to keep being enforced.

[FUANNA]

Fuanna, 100% Agree with your post. So spot on, and I am amazed we even allow this sort of crap to keep being enforced.

Company wants it this way, because it ultimately drives costs down.

But why on earth is the AOA playing this game too?

[Numero Crunchero]

Numero - I don’t think that any of my postings can be considered a rant nor even a rave . Like you I have been here since before the last dose of unpleasantness which resulted in the 49ers and so I am deeply pragmatic about what the HKAOA can achieve , or more pertinently CANNOT achieve. But I do think that the Union should provide some kind of buffer between an aggressive, confrontational Management and the Members. To recommend a “Yes” vote seemed to fail us all. Perhaps there is some substance in remaining in the HKAOA just to vote “NO” but ultimately what will happen? Nothing. Therefore I see no reason to remain engaged with a Union which does not act as a Union.
No rant.
I just do not see the point.


Kenfoggo - you are right I am tarring you with a broad brush. I get frustrated - as I did in 2001 - with lots of big talk. And yes of course there is action between here and 'strike'.
apologies!

[Pogie]

Oh, the training ban is not hurting them, so let's vote yes and bend over for our pineapple insertion. What a load of crap! If the ban wasn't hurting them, they would just ignore us, and not be so damned adamant on having clauses from preventing us from ever using it again. Would you yes-vote idiots please grow a pair and open your eyes!

[unitedabx]

The thread title interests me. As time goes on and as more and more GC tools crawl out from under the stones from where they have been hiding , there certainly seems to be some conspiracy going on. Just looking at the posts from that Spin Doctor RL says it all.

I'm voting NO based on the Sh1te presented . I urge the pussycat "on the fence" voters to vote NO based on the very strange behaviour being exhibited by certain GC and NC members.

Totally agree. Vote "no" and push back some of the ****. And can anyone explain why the vote is taking place in such short order ? Could it be because the company wants it pushed thru before the annual results are out ? Why not delay until say 1st April and then decide. With record profits about to be announced some of the yes inclined voters might think again when they see the shreholders and directors award themselves huge bonuses and dividends at the expense of the pilots. There is no rush to vote. Wait and see if the sob story from management is true or not.
Rumour has it directors to vote themselves an 8% bonus based on the pilots voting yes and the end of fuel hedging.

[Numero Crunchero]

Totally agree. Vote "no" and push back some of the ****. And can anyone explain why the vote is taking place in such short order ? Could it be because the company wants it pushed thru before the annual results are out ? Why not delay until say 1st April and then decide. With record profits about to be announced some of the yes inclined voters might think again when they see the shreholders and directors award themselves huge bonuses and dividends at the expense of the pilots. There is no rush to vote. Wait and see if the sob story from management is true or not.
Rumour has it directors to vote themselves an 8% bonus based on the pilots voting yes and the end of fuel hedging.

If there had been no member amendment, the original GC motion would have allowed for a full vote to start two weeks earlier.

In order to satisfy RF's amendment, both RF and the GC agreed to a compromise (which is the current GC motion). RF then changed his mind and now we have two different motions. As the GC one now contains most of RF's original requirements, the GC is UNABLE to change the dates on the Final Agreements whether the GC or RF motion passes. So the vote had to be reduced to end 1 Feb to comply with the new RF restrictions placed on both motions.

If there had been no member amendment then the entire vote process could have been fully completed, iaw HKAOA rules, without any shortening two weeks earlier than they will now. So if the vote passed by now, HKPA members would have their increased rates paid in February.

So no skull duggery - all purely driven by the member amendment motion. But if you want conspiracy theory - RF's amendment has saved the company around $6million HKD in February assuming the vote passes.

[The FUB]

That should cover your TC upgrade.

[unitedabx]

If there had been no member amendment, the original GC motion would have allowed for a full vote to start two weeks earlier.

In order to satisfy RF's amendment, both RF and the GC agreed to a compromise (which is the current GC motion). RF then changed his mind and now we have two different motions. As the GC one now contains most of RF's original requirements, the GC is UNABLE to change the dates on the Final Agreements whether the GC or RF motion passes. So the vote had to be reduced to end 1 Feb to comply with the new RF restrictions placed on both motions.

If there had been no member amendment then the entire vote process could have been fully completed, iaw HKAOA rules, without any shortening two weeks earlier than they will now. So if the vote passed by now, HKPA members would have their increased rates paid in February.

So no skull duggery - all purely driven by the member amendment motion. But if you want conspiracy theory - RF's amendment has saved the company around $6million HKD in February assuming the vote passes.

Thank you for the concise explanation. So the tail really is wagging the dog and the tail is being slapped by the company. What ever happened to members rights. HKAOA not fit for purpose.

[RAT Management]

Well if Numero gets his way and the result is a yes vote..... There will be no hope for the future.

Is the fat lady singing?


Are pilots that lame?


​​​I guess we will find out in 10 more days......

[unitedabx]

Well if Numero gets his way and the result is a yes vote..... There will be no hope for the future.

Is the fat lady singing?


Are pilots that lame?


​​​I guess we will find out in 10 more days......

Meantime, we can report RL to the ICAC

[Dragon69]

This has the stink of 2004 all over again when a corrupt HKAOA pres sold the 49ers out with messages of doom and gloom to its members if the vote doesn't pass. Only took the formation of another union to keep the fight going to its conclusion. Interesting how he quietly rode off into the sunset onto his new USA basing right after that. Make no mistake, the AoA is just a medium to facilitate the imposition of change by the company. Name ONE improvement in the last 20 years that has come as a result of the AoA? Like someone suggested on one of these threads, and what I had been saying for a number of years.... everyone should resign from the AoA, it is far more difficult for the company to negotiate with 3000 individuals rather than one organization that represents 3000 individuals.

Quick question NC, why are you all of sudden so vocal? Your message is that members have indicated through AoA surveys that they don't have the appetite to escalate industrial action, therefore the members should accept whatever is on offer by the company. I am not going to debate this point with you, but I am just curious as to why you never spoke out previously. I mean for years and years while we were in CC, not once in any of the forums, not once in any of the focus night that I attended did you ever voice your opinion, instead you were constantly enlightening us with your number wizardry. You've recently used example from 2001 to support your point of view, so this is obviously not a new revelation to you. Why the change?

[The FUB]

In the meantime CH left CX this week, having resigned from the NC when he realized that "If CX want this crap it will have to be imposed on us".

Imposed or had sprinkles added, who knows, but RL sold the 747 down the steam , thanks bro.

[The FUB]

Oops CM not CH

[Farman Biplane]

NC has been in/around the negotiating committees for a long time. Is it causation or correlation that we have fallen drastically short of any acceptable gains during his reign? Let alone kept pace with inflation?

[Samsonite]

RL has just been explaining things to everyone, if you don’t like the facts just vote no but no need to get personal. Don’t worry all the guys on COS99 that get pushed out at 55 will be joining COS18 and signing up for training and they aren’t the only ones.

[RAT Management]

I believe a whole bunch of guys on cos 99 signed up for cos 18 as soon as it was released ... Talk about selling everyone out.

[Natca]

I believe a whole bunch of guys on cos 99 signed up for cos 18 as soon as it was released ... Talk about selling everyone out.

No they didnt, you have to resign to rejoin on cos18... which also means a downgrade.

[Dilbert68]

Make no mistake, the AoA is just a medium to facilitate the imposition of change by the company.

Spot on Dragon, I have been saying this for years.

[RAT Management]

Not skippers on cos 99 who want to extend beyond 55... That's the deal... Just like the A scale who wanted beyond 55, they signed over to B scale. Whole people are willing to exercise self servitude those in their wake will suffer the turbulence.

[superfrozo]

https://youtu.be/HWHz3Oq7EZ0

[ron burgandy]

Imagine the lack of self respect required to turn up to do the same job you did yesterday, but for 70% less money today.
These clowns are either so lazy, or so insecure that they’d prefer to do that than to cut the Cathay cord and get a job elsewhere paying more and getting treated better.

[Flex88]

Imagine the lack of self respect required to turn up to do the same job you did yesterday, but for 70% less money today.
These clowns are either so lazy, or so insecure that they’d prefer to do that than to cut the Cathay cord and get a job elsewhere paying more and getting treated better.

You don't have to imagine it, just go talk to some of the many SSI's over in the FTC.. Ask them what it "feels" like ???????

[RAT Management]

Is it just me or does everyone smell a stench from this "best we can expect" deal?

Everything from the pit of my stomach instinctually tells me to vote NO!

The trust had been erroded by one side only. But that same side requires the umbrella clause that is also one sided.... Why? because they can not trust "US!" And they need a gauranteed future!

In return we get a gauranteed 1%. Are you crazy?

They made the mistakes. They need to fix them.

This is not an acceptable fix.... If you think it is, then vote Yes.

But don't vote Yes because you can't see anything better coming around the corner.

You need to realize that there are things that will change for the worse if it is a Yes vote ( like change in reserve, W patterns, 3 man long haul) it's just not detailed in plain sight yet, but with hindsight you will be saying"what was I thinking". Sure you will win a few small financial gains. But these do not (even close) address the real issues, or account for the negatives you will be voting yes to.

The Sum of the parts are greater than the whole. That's why they want it voted as one big package.... Do you smell a rat in this. Trust your instincts.

Look at the big picture and realize that this is a giant turd. Make them and those who support it eat it.... But don't even attempt to take a bite out of this offering.... Not for a second.

Think beyond what you stand to gain. Think about the whole group, the future, and what it will mean for the longevity of your career, and others.

It's not a great place where we are right now. But it's better to sit here than to agree to a worse place without any recourse except for legal challenge....

It's not about what you are going to gain. It's about what we need to preserve. We cannot afford to give away any degredation to our lifestyle and conditions.... Not for a few measly $$$.

If you, like me, see this whole thing as wrong.... Please vote No!

[mngmt mole]

This deal effectively gives me a tiny bit "more". However, I am voting "NO" because it is the product of a broken system, a broken union and represents the very worst management tendencies and intentions in the airline industry. It will herald the end of the the distinguished and respected airline that was once Cathay Pacific. This offer is an abomination. It will destroy our careers, our pride and our integrity. It is unworthy of a single "yes" vote. Vote "NO" knowing you are standing up for your self-worth, your value as a professional pilot and your legacy. This deserves to be rejected with malice. Only a NO vote will tell this management we've had enough. It won't be an easy road ahead, but it WILL be the right decision. Don't sell yourselves and your colleagues down the river into professional oblivion.

[Flex88]

This deal effectively gives me a tiny bit "more". However, I am voting "NO" because it is the product of a broken system, a broken union and represents the very worst management tendencies and intentions in the airline industry. It will herald the end of the the distinguished and respected airline that was once Cathay Pacific. This offer is an abomination. It will destroy our careers, our pride and our integrity. It is unworthy of a single "yes" vote. Vote "NO" knowing you are standing up for your self-worth, your value as a professional pilot and your legacy. This deserves to be rejected with malice. Only a NO vote will tell this management we've had enough. It won't be an easy road ahead, but it WILL be the right decision. Don't sell yourselves and your colleagues down the river into professional oblivion.

Do not forget, even the company they hired to help "negotiate" a contract (remember HPE) walked away in disgust at the sham pretence of CX "leadership" negotiating in good faith.. Nothing has changed.
As well, re HK Govt employment ordinance, they (I believe) can't arbitrarily change your COS in a detrimental manner THEREFORE, the only way they can accomplish that same task is get you to vote this garbage in..

[mngmt mole]

You are correct. We have a sad history of voting in the “agreements” that the company then uses against us to further weaken and devalue our careers. This WILL prove the final nail in the coffin of professional aviation at CX. Vote NO and stand strong for what our profession and careers are worth.

[Amber Vibes]

If by some miracle the union as an organization continues to exist after this vote, the members should consider adding conflict of interest clauses to the bylaws to preclude union reps (from the very top down) from profiting in any way from their position for a specified period of time. I know it is impossible to know every way in which a rep may profit, but at least eliminate the obvious and verifiable ways. IMHO what is happening here is perfect storm of weak or greedy reps and a corrupt company who will go to any lengths to implement their stingy, oppressive and punitive policies.

[FUANNA]

Hongkong is one of the most unethical and corrupted places on this planet.

Why should the local airline or pilots association be any different?

[Air Profit]

Anyone who is foolish enough to tie the fates of their careers, their families and their health to this corrupted and miserable company will sadly deserve what they get. The feeling of relief when I knew I was leaving was overwhelming.