Tu-160's visit Venezuela

[NutLoose]

It appears Russia are spreading their wings so to speak and the US is not amused.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46522358

[racedo]

Think they visited in 2008 and 2013 based on reports.

[dead_pan]

It may be totally unrelated, but didn't Venezuela miss a few of their oil payments-in-kind to Russia recently? Just sayin'...

[Imagegear]

Wow - They look like serious pie preparation machines,

Why do so many Russian pilots appear rotund, is it perhaps mandated forced feeding for G tolerance purposes?

IG

[Tankertrashnav]

Maybe the Russians are less obsessed with body mass and more concerned with flying capability. These days in the RAF it seems if you arent built like a racing snake you get nagged into running every day. Glad I left before all this stuff got a hold

[David Thompson]

Lossie launched two Typhoons on a QRA in response to the Russian aircraft with the Typhoons reported to be carrying the MBDA Meteor missile , story here ;
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/royal-air-force-typhoons-launch-with-new-missile/ .

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Is Meteor particularly late into service?

Is there a notably good online resource giving details of its benefits?


WWW

[NutLoose]

https://theaviationist.com/2018/12/10/raf-typhoons-launch-with-meteor-bvr-air-to-air-missiles-for-the-first-time-during-qra-mission/

[Lonewolf_50]

There was a time when people didn't lose their minds when a crew, or a section of aircraft, went on a cross country flight for training.
Here's an idea: training sortie, intercontinental flight for an aircraft that is built with that kind of range in mind.
And if a little political "show the flag" comes with it, bonus.
Maybe a little exercise with a military one has worked with before.
US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said it amounted to "two corrupt governments squandering public funds".
That's a bit rich, Mr Secretary. But for raw comic relief, check out the Madurite's hyperbole.
The latest visit comes just days after President Maduro met Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow. Venezuelan Defence Minister Vladimir Padrino said they were part of air force exercises with its Russian allies: "This we are going to do with our friends, because we have friends in the world who defend respectful, balanced relations." You have oil, and you stink at developing your reserves because you eat your seed corn, Señor Moron.
"We are preparing to defend Venezuela to the last inch when necessary," the minister said in a reference to his government's frequent accusations that imperialist powers are trying to topple it. Your government is in the process of destroying your country from within, and doing a brilliant job of it. Nobody outside need lift a finger.

It's almost like I am watching a sketch on Saturday Night Live, or listening to the Goon Show.

[West Coast]

This isn't just training LW, it's politicians sending messages to one another.

[NutLoose]

Yup, you put troops on my back door and I can reciprocate.

[chopper2004]

Shes very brave lol

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OkbFkc3ykrI


https://theaviationist.com/2018/12/12/reporter-gets-a-little-too-close-to-a-landing-russian-tu-160-blackjack-bomber-in-venezuela/

[Una Due Tfc]

Fabulous looking machine though, and one hell of a technical achievement, greater range than a B52, greater payload and speed than a B-1. No wonder producing 30 odd of them contributed to bankrupting the Soviet Union.

[dead_pan]

Love the Brass-Eye-esque RT report with the bat**** graphics. Also impressed they're giving a group of fat o!d blokes a trip to Venezuela.

[ORAC]

Condor and Classic in support.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x534/qzluqvzngvehxlf4vyspohotwe_1bae0df09be72a6319c15c183460a9814 ba3944d.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x534/sr2uygvnovcafdvnksibovggny_7f31171d55689948e1deb58e3c66d7b23 be91099.jpg

[chopper2004]

Condor and Classic in support.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x534/qzluqvzngvehxlf4vyspohotwe_1bae0df09be72a6319c15c183460a9814 ba3944d.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x534/sr2uygvnovcafdvnksibovggny_7f31171d55689948e1deb58e3c66d7b23 be91099.jpg

Laughingly thought I was looking top down at an aircraft carrier with the angled runway lol

cheers

[Tankertrashnav]

Also impressed they're giving a group of fat o!d blokes a trip to Venezuela.

Maybe the thin young thin blokes were all unfit to fly having incurred injuries playing sport, running etc in order to "get fit". Fortunately the old fat guys were just about able to roll out of the aircrew feeder and fly a sophisticated supersonic aircraft on a long range overseas deployment.

[ORAC]

How the world changes. In my day the word used when discussing Russian technology was agricultural, not sophisticated.

(That didn’t mean it didn’t work - including their space programme. Just that they deliberately eschewed technology that might break where a simpler solution could be found)

[Thrust Augmentation]

Shes very brave lol


Lucky by my take!

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Condor and Classic in support.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x534/qzluqvzngvehxlf4vyspohotwe_1bae0df09be72a6319c15c183460a9814 ba3944d.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/950x534/sr2uygvnovcafdvnksibovggny_7f31171d55689948e1deb58e3c66d7b23 be91099.jpg
No tanker support ?
Bit odd I thought
Be lucky
David

[ORAC]

Only bomber tanking the old USSR did was the wingtip to wingtip on the Badger, IIRC the IL-86 is purely a tactical fighter-bomber tanker.

[vascodegama]

[QUOTE=ORAC;10335140]Only bomber tanking the old USSR did was the wingtip to wingtip on the Badger, IIRC the IL-86 is purely a tactical fighter-bomber tanker.[/QUO
They used AAR for long range missions against Syrian targets ; the tanker doesn’t have to go all the way.

[A_Van]

Only bomber tanking the old USSR did was the wingtip to wingtip on the Badger, IIRC the IL-86 is purely a tactical fighter-bomber tanker.


IL-86 is a civilian plane (for some 350 pax). Production stopped in 90's. Never saw, heard of, read about its tanker verison.
The main tanker is IL-78. In old days (until late 80's) there were quite some Myasischev 3M tankers (converted bombers).

As for "old blokes", their presence is easily explicable.
First, it's a sort of a resort trip. Thus, better give this bonus to elder guys, younger ones can wait :-)
Second, as there obviously are some socialising events with the locals during this mission, it's better to have experienced lads. They would not be confused to chat with local generals, can consume endless amount of hard drinks and not get drunk, can tell many stories, etc. :-)

[meleagertoo]

Old blokes are surely the ones who order and organise such trips so it's understandable if a disproportionate number of portly Generals, Group Captains etc. allocate themselves to go along.
Jollies for the boys applies to old gits too...

Do we have any idea what route they took to get there?

[ORAC]

No probe, and they don’t do boom.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/660x371/_104732050_mediaitem104732046_ce6e52148b83aadb930699a3f45637 f200f04634.jpg

[ORAC]

From the following link.

https://theaviationist.com/2018/12/11/russian-air-force-tu-160-bombers-deploy-to-venezuela/


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1199x603/tu160_30_1a6763f8a59ba5448b128b729e61291930bc651f.jpg

[dead_pan]

Big ol' orbit mid-point during the flight. Are we sure they don't have an AAR capability?

[Asturias56]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/788x523/2018_12_14_123756_0691b382ebf4ed600ea35e43eef3f1066c5440dc.j pg
Wiki:-

"The Tu-160 is powered by four Kuznetsov NK-32 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznetsov_NK-32) afterburning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterburner) turbofan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbofan) engines, the most powerful ever fitted to a combat aircraft. Unlike the American B-1B Lancer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1_Lancer), which reduced the original Mach 2+ requirement for the B-1A to achieve a smaller radar cross-section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross-section), the Tu-160 retains variable intake ramps (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intake_ramp), and is capable of reaching Mach 2.05 speed at altitude.[38] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-160#cite_note-38) The Tu-160 is equipped with a probe-and-drogue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_and_drogue) in-flight refueling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-flight_refueling) system for extended-range missions, although it is rarely used."

[ORAC]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x544/tu160_20_5ffb98d792a59188b21fbb223812ea91d107792e.jpg
The photos from Venezuela show the aircraft not to be fitted with probes. The link with the map above states the third aircraft was another Blackjack. Presumed to be an airborne spare which loitered at the Orbit till fuel required RTB.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1220x685/tu160_50_7be977f199c5e2a8d69364e04eb05f2200573461.jpg

[42go]

" The photos from Venezuela show the aircraft not to be fitted with probes. " - those darned Ruskis have tricked you, Sir

[West Coast]

Looks retractable in the airborne image. The image of the nose on the ground shows a faint rectangular outline of what may be refueling doors.

[Davef68]

You can see the extended probe and doors in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grl5DX15ly4

[ORAC]

https://www.rt.com/news/446324-tu-160-venezuela-drill-videos/

[TEEEJ]

Looks like a very short visit to Venezuela. The two Tu-160s and the ground controllers have been noted active on HF on their way home today.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Russia has told the United States that two of their strategic bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons will leave Venezuela on Friday, the White House said on Wednesday, ending a deployment that angered Washington.

“We have spoken with representatives of Russia and have been informed that their military aircraft, which landed in Venezuela, will be leaving on Friday and going back to Russia,” White House press secretary Sarah Sanders said in an email sent to Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-usa/russia-tells-u-s-their-bombers-to-leave-venezuela-friday-white-house-idUSKBN1OB2II

[tdracer]

Looks retractable in the airborne image. The image of the nose on the ground shows a faint rectangular outline of what may be refueling doors.

Makes sense - can you imagine the amount of drag that probe would add at Mach 2? And we're talking a long range aircraft - the weight of making it retractable would be negligible compared to the impact on range of getting rid of that drag.
Not to mention the effect on radar cross section.

[Fareastdriver]

I would imagine that the orbit mid Atlantic on the way out was because the bottle of vodka had rolled into a distant corner of the cockpit.

[Onceapilot]

I would be interested if the powers that be would publish the basics of the compliance or non-compliance with flight plan notification that was used in this, and similar, long range Russian flights. I would presume that these Tu160's transited mostly at high level and straight through the busy N.Atl OTS airspace. Was any co-ordination achieved or, was there an increased risk to civil traffic?

OAP

[TEEEJ]

The Tu-160s have returned to Russia and they did air to air refuel. Radio enthusiasts noted at least two IL-78 Midas tankers along with the Tu-160s using HF last night. Looks like they refeulled them in the Barents area before they returned to Engels.

MOSCOW, December 15. /TASS/. Tu-160 strategic bombers have returned to their home airfield in Russia after a their visit to Venezuela, the Russian Defense Ministry's department of information and communications said on Saturday.

"Long-range aircraft flew in the airspace over the Atlantic Ocean, Caribbean, Norwegian and Barents Seas," the defense ministry said. "Tu-160 strategic bombers flew over 12,000 kilometers and refueled in the air," the ministry added.

From

TASS: Military & Defense - Tu-160 bombers return to home airfield in Russia after visit to Venezuela (http://tass.com/defense/1036226)

[TEEEJ]

Only bomber tanking the old USSR did was the wingtip to wingtip on the Badger, IIRC the IL-86 is purely a tactical fighter-bomber tanker.


There was also the Bison tankers as A_Van posted in reply. They were retired in the mid 1990s. There was no IL-86 Camber tanker variant. In recent years they were looking at an IL-96 tanker but have apparently abandoned that idea.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-04-17/russia-drops-plans-strategic-air-tanker

etOGkUfPf6g

[M609]

Was any co-ordination achieved or, was there an increased risk to civil traffic?

Unless they have changed suddenly in the last few weeks......no coordination what so ever. I' ve never heard of ANY Russian MIL aircraft coming around the North Cape for the Atlantic that is ever coordinated with ATC.

[Fareastdriver]

I was at the first Zuhai Air Show and a couple of Russian fighters were doing a display. After they had finished they refuelled and punched off to Russia.

Airways? Controlled airspace? What's that?

[dead_pan]

I would imagine that the orbit mid Atlantic on the way out was because the bottle of vodka had rolled into a distant corner of the cockpit.

"Keep banking Yuri!! I can almost reach it!!"

[MPN11]

Unless they have changed suddenly in the last few weeks......no coordination what so ever. I' ve never heard of ANY Russian MIL aircraft coming around the North Cape for the Atlantic that is ever coordinated with ATC.
Separation achieved by flying in Metres instead of Flight Levels ... simples!

[ORAC]

I can remember calling a LATCC civil controller to tell him that there was a non-squawking pair of Bears, co-alt and on a collision course with one of his airways traffic, and that it might be wise to get it to climb or descend a couple of thousand feet.

“Certainly not!”, responded the controller. “It’s in controlled airspace”. “Who is controlling them?”

”Not sure”, says I, “but I think it might be Moscow”.

[safetypee]

I wonder if that was the same pair of Bears which were ‘seen’ by an Air India aircraft, who reported this to Shanwick, and thence Buchan. Leuchars Q was launched ‘on speck’, or more likely with additional int info.
Saxa Vord, in days past, as a NATO facility were not supposed to help U.K. air defence ops without permission etc, but they gave very good collision avoidance info, ‘crossing left right at 140 nm’.

[ORAC]

Saxa Vord, in days past, as a NATO facility were not supposed to help U.K. air defence ops without permission etc, but they gave very good collision avoidance info, ‘crossing left right at 140 nm’. :confused:

CRP Saxa Vord was a UK Air Defence radar site, manned by fighter controllers, one of primary roles being to control the QRA and was under the control of SOC/CRC Buchan.

I personally supervised Saxa intercepting Bears at least a couple of hundred times as the MC at Buchan.

[BEagle]

I guess he means Pole Star on the Faroes?

Have the spotters' websites shown the levels flown by the Tu-160s over the Atlantic?

[Onceapilot]

Thanks ORAC, MPN11 and M609. I also presume that these aircraft probably just transit at some +500' level. However, I think our pollies are seriously missing the point here. This kind of action is really open warfare on International agreements. Russian access to commercial airspace should be curtailed when this occurs in such flagrant ways. Who is going to account for this when they take out 350 innocent people on a Jumbo?

OAP

[Treble one]

Would these aircraft not be flying well above Civil Transatlantic traffic? 40000 ft plus?

[ORAC]

They used to cruise at about 36K.

[wiggy]

Would these aircraft not be flying well above Civil Transatlantic traffic? 40000 ft plus?

FWIW FL400 plus for civil traffic on (or operating above) the published Organised Track system and elsewhere over the Atlantic is not at all uncommon these days.

The big twins such as the 777, 787 and others may be up at those levels, either for the whole cruise or late on if they are lightweight having burnt fuel towards the end of the Oceanic sector (e.g. heading for Western Europe from the States) and the biz jets are often at FL 400 from the get go and will be dizzyingly higher later in the cruise.

[Onceapilot]

I expect that these Tu160 on such a long flight, also step or cruise-climb for best ANm/Kg. So, we have non-coordinated crossing / climbing / descending traffic over vast areas of the OTS. FGS, NATO Forces cannot even fly fully compliant AAR routing in OTS airspace, Yes, even fully compliant. I think there are two points here: Someone out to get a grip on this and publicise the facts, instead of hiding and trying not to admit the Russians are pushing the West around. Also, the West should achieve some far better civil / military integration for Trails and other Operational flights in the OTS and other Nato airspace. If Russian aircraft can be ignored blundering about endangering life at will, how can the coordination of some compliant NATO Trail traffic be such an issue. :ugh:

OAP

[ORAC]

International airspace, they are entitled to do what they want. What do you think is going on around a carrier in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific during an exercise?

[vascodegama]

OAP

Formations are not RVSM compliant.

[Onceapilot]

International airspace, they are entitled to do what they want. What do you think is going on around a carrier in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific during an exercise?
Hi ORAC,
Nope, I do not think International airspace is a viable concept for "doing what you want". := So, do you want to tell everyone here what does "go on around a carrier in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific during an exercise?"? :) Thanks

OAP

[Onceapilot]

OAP

Formations are not RVSM compliant.
Hi Vasco! This is true but, the level of non compliance is infinitesimally small compared to just blundering about with no co-ordination whatsoever! :mad: Additionally, Trails would be unable, in truth, to meet all the requirements of the OTS as laid down. However, I use this comparison to highlight the gross insult to standing International protocols that the Russian "Blunderflights" represent and, the mismatch of political power that is used to obscure the actual level of injury that these transgressions represent. Beyond that, the routine operations of NATO are given no ability WHATSOEVER to infringe OTS airspace but, the Russians are purposely ignored and, unpunished! :confused:

OAP

[vascodegama]

OAP

The main problem that a trail would face would be the emergency situation and having to cross several tracks. The ALTRV would negate a lot of the other OTS requirements. I am just a bit surprised that say F280B300 would not be an option since that is a not so popular level. Of course GR4 trails would not be feasible at those levels but the other types should have no problems. I did read somewhere recently that RVSM airspace is likely to be lowered idc, not sure where the leaves military activity.

[Onceapilot]

OAP

The main problem that a trail would face would be the emergency situation and having to cross several tracks. The ALTRV would negate a lot of the other OTS requirements. I am just a bit surprised that say F280B300 would not be an option since that is a not so popular level. Of course GR4 trails would not be feasible at those levels but the other types should have no problems. I did read somewhere recently that RVSM airspace is likely to be lowered idc, not sure where the leaves military activity.

Hi Vasco, Yes, however these OTS issues are minor compared to the " Blunderflights". IMO, there is no comparison of risk. Beyond that, Trail divert proceedures can be devised to mitigate the risk if the political will was there.

OAP

[Una Due Tfc]

As someone who has had Bears in my sector more than once, I don’t give a stuff. They maintain their own separation and likely have IFF on anyway. They normally fly at something like FL275/285 and stay well out of everyone’s way.

As for convoys not being RVSM compliant, that’s true, which is why they tend to fly below RVSM airspace, although I have on occasion been told “MARSA” by the USAF when they’re not getting what they want, which means they’re no longer my responsibility and they can do whatever they want.

They’re in international airspace flying under due regard just like many other countries’ air forces do, and to be honest the Russians have caused me way less hassle than B52s in particular over the years.

[A_Van]

I wonder whether US B-2 planes are coordinating their routes with various ATCs during their real combat missions to bomb Afghanistan, Iraq and others? They are definitely crossing the Atlantic and, even more, are using some other countries' aerospace (w/o notice or permission?) to reach target areas.

[Onceapilot]

I wonder whether US B-2 planes are coordinating their routes with various ATCs during their real combat missions to bomb Afghanistan, Iraq and others? They are definitely crossing the Atlantic and, even more, are using some other countries' aerospace (w/o notice or permission?) to reach target areas.

Very interesting A Van. So, you say the USA fly through the OTS in the same way as the blundering Bears and Tu160's?

OAP

[Onceapilot]

An interesting post Una, it would be enlightening to know where your sector is! :eek:

OAP

[M609]

and likely have IFF on anyway.

No they bloody don't!

[NutLoose]

I wonder whether US B-2 planes are coordinating their routes with various ATCs during their real combat missions to bomb Afghanistan, Iraq and others? They are definitely crossing the Atlantic and, even more, are using some other countries' aerospace (w/o notice or permission?) to reach target areas.

Wasn't it during GW1 that the USA were having a discussion at Whitehouse levels as to who would announce that they were sending aircraft to Saudi to bolster their defences, when it was announced to the world by some Sgt who filed the flightplans. :)

[Una Due Tfc]

An interesting post Una, it would be enlightening to know where your sector is! :eek:

OAP

check your private messages

[Una Due Tfc]

No they bloody don't!

Out of curiosity, why not?

[M609]

Out of curiosity, why not?


Same reason NATO aircraft sometimes don't use IFF on when operating on operational tasks that require some level of secrecy. To make detection more difficult.

[Una Due Tfc]

Same reason NATO aircraft sometimes don't use IFF on when operating on operational tasks that require some level of secrecy. To make detection more difficult.

Ah, makes sense. Thank you.

[Asturias56]

I guess they're worried that B2 or Tu160 pilots might get into the habit of turning the transponder on when flying war time flights...........