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View Full Version : Massive birdstrike on PrecisionAir ATR72


DIBO
9th Dec 2018, 15:40
A picture is worth a thousand words
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62779&p=375675#p375674

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x810/dt_jv5cxqaijqwx_b437687172ef535801c74a04c6ab3bcea764b8b9.jpg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x1080/dt_jv5txqaqd5s3_bddc8db22a44761e5c33f3f35a705fc35b042baf.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x1080/dt_jv5mxqaiixuq_03a8528a1ab4f734b16742b5118662b138795c33.jpg

rotornut
9th Dec 2018, 17:41
A picture is worth a thousand birds!

Phororhacos
9th Dec 2018, 20:18
perhaps these... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quelea

F-16GUY
9th Dec 2018, 20:25
Wow, they will need one or two of these to make it look shiny again:

https://www.turtlewax.com/our-products/renew-restore/turtle-wax-bug-tar-remover

DIBO
9th Dec 2018, 20:29
perhaps these... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quelea

Q. quelea is a major pest to small-grain cereal crops
well, not only to cereal crops, apparently....

evansb
9th Dec 2018, 22:03
Robust aircraft.

Humanity is a major pest to the Quelea.

megan
10th Dec 2018, 00:59
Robust aircraftWith little critters like these it's engines you need worry about. October 4, 1960: Eastern Air Lines Flight 375 crashed on takeoff from Logan International Airport, killing 62 of 72 on board. The crash was eventually determined to be the result of bird (starlings) ingestion into three of the four engines. The bird damage caused the No. 1 propeller to autofeather and the engine to shut down at the same time that damage to the No. 2 and No. 4 engines prevented those engines from developing full power at a critical stage of flight. The aircraft was unable to climb and the power interruption to the port engines probably caused the left wing to stall; the wing dropped and the aircraft crashed into the water. There was also evidence that birds had crashed into the windscreen, reducing the pilots' visibility; in addition, bird remains had clogged the pitot tubes, making the pilots' airspeed indicators unreliable.

dogsridewith
11th Dec 2018, 00:55
Would a large modern passenger aircraft have that same susceptibility to a flock of smaller birds such as those starlings?
(By the photos, the thread ATR72 seemed messy but not particularly damaged. But what about engines w/ ducted fans versus large propellers...and ingestion further back into compressor and combustion stages?)

stilton
11th Dec 2018, 01:59
Largely depends on the speed you hit them
a bigger aircraft can sustain quite a bit of damage from even a small bird when you hit them at 300 knots

misd-agin
11th Dec 2018, 02:16
With little critters like these it's engines you need worry about. October 4, 1960: Eastern Air Lines Flight 375 crashed on takeoff from Logan International Airport, killing 62 of 72 on board. The crash was eventually determined to be the result of bird (starlings) ingestion into three of the four engines. The bird damage caused the No. 1 propeller to autofeather and the engine to shut down at the same time that damage to the No. 2 and No. 4 engines prevented those engines from developing full power at a critical stage of flight. The aircraft was unable to climb and the power interruption to the port engines probably caused the left wing to stall; the wing dropped and the aircraft crashed into the water. There was also evidence that birds had crashed into the windscreen, reducing the pilots' visibility; in addition, bird remains had clogged the pitot tubes, making the pilots' airspeed indicators unreliable.

Wings don't stall because engines fail. Power failure and loss of airspeed indicators would be hard to handle. Pure seat of the pants flying time. :-(

megan
11th Dec 2018, 05:52
Wings don't stall because engines failTwo photographs were taken of the aircraft one second apart, the first indicated an IAS of 118 knots, the second 103 knots, so de-accelerating at a rate of 15 knots/sec. Stall speed at the particular configuration/weight was 108 knots, the extreme yaw compounded the ability of the left wing to develop lift due to blanketing.

Cloudee
11th Dec 2018, 06:30
Two photographs were taken of the aircraft one second apart, the first indicated an IAS of 118 knots, the second 103 knots, so de-accelerating at a rate of 15 knots/sec. Stall speed at the particular configuration/weight was 108 knots, the extreme yaw compounded the ability of the left wing to develop lift due to blanketing.
Have a look at the pilot tubes in the photos, Id say bird guts in the tubes could have given erroneous readings.

pilotmike
11th Dec 2018, 06:43
With little critters like these it's engines you need worry about. October 4, 1960: Eastern Air Lines Flight 375 crashed on takeoff from Logan International Airport, killing 62 of 72 on board. The crash was eventually determined to be the result of bird (starlings) ingestion into three of the four engines. The bird damage caused the No. 1 propeller to autofeather .....

Sounds as though the whole aircraft was completely autofeathered!

FlightlessParrot
11th Dec 2018, 07:44
Wings don't stall because engines fail. Power failure and loss of airspeed indicators would be hard to handle. Pure seat of the pants flying time. :-(
Not that I know, but Id have thought that in a critical situation the loss of prop wash wouldnt help.

DaveReidUK
11th Dec 2018, 08:29
Not that I know, but I’d have thought that in a critical situation the loss of prop wash wouldn’t help.

Well no, it clearly wouldn't.

But the key to the Electra accident lay (in the words of the CAB) "in the unique and critical sequence of a rapidly occurring chain of events", as alluded to above.

ready eddy
11th Dec 2018, 10:19
FR had an incident with a flock of starlings @ CIA, flamed out both engines and the aircraft suffered a 'heavy landing'.

FCeng84
11th Dec 2018, 16:25
What a mess! One of my areas of interest is common events that impact more than one sensor such that it is difficult to determine which one (or ones) is providing incorrect data. I hope we learn what the impact was on airspeed and AOA measurements. It clearly took some savvy flying to bring this one home. Well done to the crew and all who may have provided assistance.

Wodrick
11th Dec 2018, 16:31
I feel for the people(s) that have to clean that, dried on bird innards is really difficult.

Qudos to the drivers though.

RatherBeFlying
11th Dec 2018, 16:39
Hats off to PW and the nacelle designers:ok:

Looks like an inertial separator did the job.

DaveReidUK
11th Dec 2018, 17:05
What a mess! One of my areas of interest is common events that impact more than one sensor such that it is difficult to determine which one (or ones) is providing incorrect data. I hope we learn what the impact was on airspeed and AOA measurements.

At the moment, we don't have any evidence of any in this instance.

hunbet
11th Dec 2018, 19:52
At the moment, we don't have any evidence of any in this instance.

You can clearly see in first picture that both pitot tubes are plugged with bird parts,the aoa sensor has stuff wrapped around it and the tat probe has bird parts hanging from it.

Mora34
12th Dec 2018, 11:47
Wings don't stall because engines fail. Power failure and loss of airspeed indicators would be hard to handle. Pure seat of the pants flying time. :-(

Actually the Electra did lose a significant part of lift if an engine failed. It had a huge wing loading and a very significant part of lift was created by the prop wash around the wing.

sputnic
12th Dec 2018, 14:30
Well done those two pilots.
No computer would have been able to bring a plane like this back safely, so I guess we are safe for a while!
Are pilots necessary in planes is a big debate as some believe that with the advent of AI there will be no need for pilots in a not too distance future. I would beg to differ seeing a plane in such a state, and this is only one exemple amongst hundreds as we all know as pilots.
Well done again.

Butor
12th Dec 2018, 20:45
I very much doubt that these were due to a Quelia flock, that pointed wing attached to the landing gear looks much like those of a wader of some sort. There are very likely big flocks of waders from Northern Europe wintering around Lake Victoria..

PS: I'm more interrested in birds than planes as a rule!

Mike

Parrot
13th Dec 2018, 00:40
I very much doubt that these were due to a Quelia flock, that pointed wing attached to the landing gear looks much like those of a wader of some sort. There are very likely big flocks of waders from Northern Europe wintering around Lake Victoria..

PS: I'm more interrested in birds than planes as a rule!

Mike

Agree with you, those are not Quelea birds which have a different wing profile and are in any case much much smaller .. about the size of a sparrow

meleagertoo
13th Dec 2018, 12:19
You can clearly see in first picture that both pitot tubes are plugged with bird parts,the aoa sensor has stuff wrapped around it and the tat probe has bird parts hanging from it.



There is debris hanging from the bases of all the pitot masts but it is quite impossible to tell if any are actually plugged. One or more might be certainly, but it can't be seen from that photo.
Masts will collect debris sliding back after an impact elsewhere but that doesn't go into the tube's mouth itself.