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mattyj
8th Dec 2018, 20:08
Im surprised no one kicked this off yet. My question would be:

is is this a real pay concern or yet another union taking their opportunity with a left leaning government in charge?


incidently; how bad have the unions emasculated the Labour Party that is their biggest supporter. Youd think they would give the new government some time to bed in but no..strike here, strike there, strike everywhere

Engineeringthrowaway
8th Dec 2018, 22:06
Im surprised no one kicked this off yet. My question would be:

Is is this a real pay concern or yet another union taking their opportunity with a left leaning government in charge?

Yes it's a genuine pay concern, the new contract strips away overtime rates that other departments within AirNZ group have kept. For the record this strike action also includes cleaners, referred to as trades assistants on the payscale who earn a paltry $40k per year and put food on the table through working long days with few days off, slaving for their corporate overlords.

AirNZ has claimed to media that these engineers are on an average take home of $115k, however a few months ago the company was telling engineers the average across the board for their salaries is $98k, with most earning between $50k to $80k, the $115k figure appears to be a 'big lie' to paint these guys are highly paid and therefore greedy.

AirNZ has refused to negotiate this contract with unions, staff have been told to sign or leave, some 95% have voted for the strike motion, the end result of this is it now forces AirNZ into good faith mediation, legally they now have to negotiate the contract, nobody wants a strike.

incidently; how bad have the unions emasculated the Labour Party that is their biggest supporter. Youd think they would give the new government some time to bed in but no..strike here, strike there, strike everywhere

I think thats the medias angle, and I'm sure thats how AirNZ's public relations team would like this framed, everything in their communications to media so far has been an attempt to paint engineers as rich and greedy, the literal grinches who are trying to ruin everybodies christmas, yet the issues the engineers have been having (and it's real guys and girls, not some dick swinging political hopeful unionists) have been brewing for months, if this truly came from nowhere like AirNZ had claimed then the strike would be deemed illegal and AirNZ would have a very serious claim to make to the ERA.

Big_saint
8th Dec 2018, 22:57
I personally think the engineers had good grounds for their strike with a stalemate at the negotiation table. Air Nz asking them to take what I see as a reasonable pay cut for a large proportion of their work. If their overtime goes from double time to time and a half that is quite substantial, especially knowing the amount of overtime a few of them do over a full year. Without a reasonable increase in other areas this is not something I can see any of us agreeing to.

The problem I see is you're fighting a PR war with Air NZ, the airline kiwis have a huge amount of pride over (although this has reduced reasonably over the last decade). E t are an absolutely terrible union as well, so although it's a collaboration with another union, I can't see E t organise a piss up in a brewery. They needed to have their side of the negotiation in the media the second anyone even thought of strike.

Yes there is some more support with a left leaning government however the reforms that were promised by the Labour Party in employment law has not been done, whether that was a bit of ass covering to not be seen as too union loving Im not too sure. With both Teachers and Nurses being one of the most publicly supported strikes in recent years I can see why the engineers thought this may have helped however attacking a kiwis Christmas may not have been the best plan.

Ollie Onion
9th Dec 2018, 02:35
Like when Pilots go on strike you will be on a hiding to nothing when the company can make statements like ‘average wage $115k’. Add to that the Christmas element and you have to accept the public will generally look unfavourably on your action, but you know what, screw it, if you feel like your conditions are being attacked then no one else will try and defend them for you. I wish the Engineers and Ground workers success in the protection of their T&C’s.

ElZilcho
9th Dec 2018, 02:35
C'mon, the tone of that Article and the details given should make it obvious the Manager quoted was putting a spin on things to garner public sympathy over Christmas.... and it's not the first time she's been underhanded and hostile during a CEA negotiation either.

In recent years, Air NZ has fallen victim (like many Airlines/Companies) to a bloated middle floor of managers feeding off their own self importance... not sure if it's still happening, but at one point they were giving out "20 year staff travel" for many new hires in said office. But as we all know, when the Hub clears out over the summer holidays the Airline keeps ticking along just fine. So perhaps a timely reminder is in order that it's those on the shop floor who keeps it ticking....

The fact they're leaning on staff to "save $30mil" after blowing how much on the worlds worst safety video shows just how out of touch they've become. We've been making record profits yes, but at what cost? How long will they keep robbing peter to pay paul?

mattyj
9th Dec 2018, 05:07
slaving for their corporate overlords.

I had some sympathy with what you said until I got to that ridiculous piece of Leninist hyperbole

Engineeringthrowaway
9th Dec 2018, 05:52
I had some sympathy with what you said until I got to that ridiculous piece of Leninist hyperbole

If thats all it takes to sway your opinion then that speaks more for your character then it does mine. What is wrong with you?

Rated De
9th Dec 2018, 09:21
In nearly every single western 'democracy' the real wage has declined.
Voting for the red team, voting for the blue team changes not the outcome, for the levers are pulled by the rentier class.
With big business support donations are assured.
Organised labour captured by the same big business does nothing materially different to those seated opposite.
It is simply kabuki theatre, designed to distract the masses into endless dialogue of left and right.

Henry Ford in 1926 released a book titled Today and Tomorrow outlining the simple strategy that is long forgotten by today's MBA cookie cutter 'management class'
To paraphrase " My employees are my customers, pay them well and I sell cars"

Declining real wages, pressure on wages from globalised and imported sub continent labour satisfies the rentier class, but eventually they eat their own tail.
Is it any coincidence, that a flat income distribution followed both World Wars as societies reset their social contract?
And no this isn't a left versus right question.

Withdrawal of labour remains a right in most western democracies, although the 'neutral umpire' was quick to side with the management in 2011 when Qantas grounded the airline....As was the Labor government.

kaikohe76
9th Dec 2018, 18:41
Rather like the UK in the 60s,& 70s when the Unions seemed to be in charge. There might be some justification for any side feeling they have been hard done by, but the Company involved rolls on & the poor customer or joe public, are always the group to get hurt.

Gate_15L
9th Dec 2018, 20:30
If thats all it takes to sway your opinion then that speaks more for your character then it does mine. What is wrong with you?

Years of inhaling avgas fumes while filling tanks up I believe....

Rated De
9th Dec 2018, 21:12
The fact they're leaning on staff to "save $30mil" after blowing how much on the worlds worst safety video shows just how out of touch they've become. We've been making record profits yes, but at what cost? How long will they keep robbing peter to pay paul?

Provided the organised labor are captured by the same interests meaning a continuous conga line of airline union heads find themselves in management positions 9amazing coincidence) or more broadly in parliament with the red or blue team political parties, there is no change.

Operating revenue comes from operation of aircraft. Engineers are vital to this.
Cut the operating revenue, damage the KPI incentives and they notice.

kaikohe76
11th Dec 2018, 19:33
It now appears that the strike will last for three days prior to Christmas. To me, there seems to be a total lack of good will & courage from both sides, also considerable arrogance shown by the opposing parties. This situation, where only the fare paying public are the ones who will really suffer, would certainly not have been allowed to continue under the previous Air New Zealand CEO.

Lapon
11th Dec 2018, 22:59
All I know of the engineers position is what has been mentioned on here and in the media. None of the engineers claims sound entirely unreasonable to me so if there is a lack of goodwill it suggests a cultural problem within the airline.
The job of an engineer is to spin the tools, its managements job to figure out how to apply what resources they have. If there are are disruptions then management should he sorting it out.
As a causal observer I say good on the engineers and wish them luck. :ok:

Chris2303
11th Dec 2018, 23:47
I can't find the reference but Luxon came out all guns blazing a couple of days ago leading to accusations from the unions and a prominent employment lawyer of "lack of good faith" which is enshrined in NZ law.

As Kaikohe76 says it would never have happened under Fyfe

RHSandLovingIt
12th Dec 2018, 18:35
It would appear that the mediation has been successful... insofar that the strike action has been called off and the unions are taking an agreement to their members for a vote

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/109310141/air-nz-says-strike-action-called-off-negotiations-were-successful

Rated De
12th Dec 2018, 19:19
I can't find the reference but Luxon came out all guns blazing a couple of days ago leading to accusations from the unions and a prominent employment lawyer of "lack of good faith" which is enshrined in NZ law.

As Kaikohe76 says it would never have happened under Fyfe

With most corporations infested with self important MBA dribbling 'managers' the industry is polluted with the very same adversarial model that 'drives' most of the Western World's corporates.
Focused on unit cost reduction above all else, they spend all their time on this. Coupled with a legal apparatus that very plainly supports business interest the balance, which is at the core of a harmonious company and indeed society is skewed one way. Throw in teams of HR/Ir witches and warlocks and you have the modern company. Executives know it and thus act usually with impunity.

Very many airlines are in need of a Rob Fyfe, Herb Kelleher or even a Gordon Bethune.

ianboag
14th Dec 2018, 20:51
The engineers wanted 3%, airline offered 2%. Hardly an unbridgeable gap. Engineers have apparently had increases for the last 12 years. So it has all sort of worked forever. Airline made a record profit last year too.

Some speadsheet-driven pointy-head decided this was the year to have a go at overtime rates which have obviously been there forever.

Union said no and it all went south. Commonsense seems to have prevailed.

mattyj
15th Dec 2018, 07:57
Dont be so sure..theres still skulduggery afoot

ianboag
18th Dec 2018, 04:25
Really? I am breathlessly waiting for the real story ......

RubberDogPoop
18th Dec 2018, 20:38
The "real story"? That'd be the bit where engineer's "average" salaries are quoted publicly without mentioning how many hours beyond 40 they work wouldn't it? Or that cleaners are also part of this pay claim - and none of us think they earn $115k pa do we? Or would it be the company announcement that ONE day of strike action, on December 21st would occur when the original notice was for all three days - 21,22,23rd - only to announce later (ergo, imply) an "additional" 2 days of strike notice had been added...
Apparently, the engineers have had contract renewals every year for 12 years according to the above quote - put your hand up if you think that is correct....

As for "skulduggery" Ian, that'd have something to do with the mediated "agreement" over 3 days of meetings (that conveniently averted Xmas strike action), now not matching the ratification document provided at the end of the same week I guess....