Islander down at Melaleuca? [Archive]

megan

9th Dec 2018, 00:15

not on Maatsuyker IslandAbsolutely no way anyone could build a strip on the island, it was difficult enough getting in there with a helicopter. The large piece at top of photo.

Very rarely flew Hobart direct Melaleuca unless the weather was CAVOK. Tracked down the east coast, turned right, then turned north to Melaleuca when abeam Maatsuyker. Fixed wing chaps used to take the same route. Never mess with weather in Tassie, the outcome can be bad.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/10352194_825962517447428_5106346932037092446_n_47b0df3d6fb07 92b721218c3baa0540c2de9d338.jpg

Sunfish

9th Dec 2018, 19:43

Bad enough sailing down there. The weather can change very suddenly. Low cloud/sea wrack is very common.

Eddie Dean

10th Dec 2018, 00:42

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-10/par-avion-crash-pilot-named-as-nikita-walker/10598302
Just in on ABC, two years flying "highly experienced" pilot.
RIP another aviator.

Cloudee

10th Dec 2018, 04:59

Sad news. I wonder how long she had her MECIR.

Mach E Avelli

10th Dec 2018, 06:01

Dunno the relevance of sea wrack (post #13). Low cloud maybe, but the potential for severe turbulence in that area probably presents a greater hazard. Even 20 knots wind can produce most unpredictable shifts, downdrafts and sometimes total reversal in direction.
Two years commercial flying may not be “highly experienced” but plenty enough for that operation, especially as she gained most of her experience in Tasmania. If the pilot had a freshly minted Instrument Rating she was probably more current than some with many more years in the business who may not have had recent practice, so again enough for that operation.
Thinking 50 year old airframe/turbulence, and I do hope the investigators look very closely at what remains of the structure.

Petropavlovsk

10th Dec 2018, 06:39

Mach E,

Your post is the one that makes sense....

The 50 year old airframe. Total time is important and heavens knows what time has possibly not being logged by previous owners. Importantly though, this class of aircraft does not require a really accurate count of landing 'cycles' Islanders were made for short haul work and a ratio of 3 to 6 landings per flight hour might not be uncommon. Certainly common in PNG, Indonesia, small Air taxi's operating around the luxury Island resorts.
Need to have a close look at the structure!

Bend alot

10th Dec 2018, 07:27

The structure?

I am more interested in the deviations prior to impact and why.

My understanding is it is "pilots" that put flight time in MR's - So owner pilots of a BN2 aircraft might be what you refer.

The MR requires landings to be recorded in Australia and this forms part of the Log Book - so it is only as accurate as you are Petropavlovsk - If required there are conversions to calculate "a number" on import.

6 is uncommon in most cases the Islander is not fast.

machtuk

10th Dec 2018, 08:14

An IR for any fairly young pilot guarantees nothing., in fact it's a ticket to a very dangerous world in which we never leave. RIP young lady, those left behind can hopefully turn another page in their logs books on your behalf:-)

flickit

10th Dec 2018, 10:18

Reg history for VH-OBL

Reg - Airline - Delivered
G-BNAF - Pilatus Britten-Norman Ltd - 21.10.86
N9754N - Christopher O Miller - 10/12/86
N9754N - Emerates Air Services - 14.12.86
A6-NHM - Pakistan Aviators-Lahore Flying Club - 00.00.93
A6-NHM - Abu Dhabi Aviation - 00.00.95
VH-OBL - Island Air Services - 04.07.95
VH-OBL - Cape York Air - 15.10.99
VH-OBL - Island Air Services - 19.09.01
ZK-OBL - Milford Sound Flightseeing - 24.02.03
VH-OBL - Airlines of Tasmania - 28.10.04

Mach E Avelli

10th Dec 2018, 10:47

Leafy, no need to talk down to people here you supercilious ass. The history of registration list has only just popped up.
So...relatively young for an Islander at perhaps ‘only’ 32 years old. Though that list does not state when PBN actually built it.
But with so many changes of ownership, there is still the thought that somewhere in its life it was over stressed, and possibly more than once. And corrosion and cracking has been known to occur in airframes younger than 32 years.
It really pisses me off when people immediately start calling in to question the pilot’s actions, or lack of experience, before a proper investigation has been concluded.

Bend alot

10th Dec 2018, 10:59

But with so many changes of ownership, there is still the thought that somewhere in its life it was over stressed, and possibly more than once.

Source?

More than once please.

Any over stress (if it was and only seen one) should be reported by the pilot on the MR.

Mach E Avelli

10th Dec 2018, 11:16

Bend alot

10th Dec 2018, 11:30

Yeh right, GA pilots are known for always honestly reporting their screw ups. Your heavy landing could be a greaser in my book. My severe turbulence could be light chop in yours. Many things never make it to the tech log.
And of course GA aeroplanes are never flown over weight, not here and not in Pakistan either.

Are they professional pilots?

So you are happy to risk the pilot after you? x2 comments

Only they don't make it because of you the pilot telling lies.

Yes many fly over weight Trump ordered them to.

* seems this lady hit weather, did a few course changes then (possibly due commercial pressures or even ego) tried to head to original destination or planned to, that did not end well.

bekolblockage

10th Dec 2018, 13:13

Feeling very sad for this poor young lady.
There but the grace of God.. etc etc having spent the early 80's flying in Tassie and a fair bit of it to the west coast and far south west, also in Islanders, albeit a fair bit older than this one. (Anyone remember EQT?)
It is incredibly inhospitable terrain-Take a look at photos on Google Earth. When you are down on the far south west coast on your own in the aircraft, trying to pick your way up valleys shrouded in cloud, with nobody to ask what the conditions ahead are like, there is an overwhelming sense of remoteness.

What about a young pilot who has flown into a corner and not been able to escape - has that ever happened before in Australia?

I daresay you are right Horatio.
The FlightAware data (ADS-B gaps notwithstanding) https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHOBL/history/20181207/2100Z/YCBG/YBHB/tracklog appears to show a course reversal a few miles west of Federation Peak. The last minute or so as the aircraft approaches West Portal is the most upsetting- a rapid climb and speed reduction back to 90kts with a course change of almost 60 degrees, no doubt in a vain attempt to avoid the terrain or perhaps in IMC and hoping to out-climb whatever was in the immediate vicinity.

I put myself in that situation once - trying to get an ABC TV crew down to Matsuyker to film a cargo ship that had lost its rudder in appalling conditions. Biggest scare I ever gave myself. I was lucky enough to get away with it. Its a long time to hold your breath waiting to get to the LSALT of 6400 ft. Poor Ms Walker was not so fortunate.

The learning curve is so steep in the those early years of your GA career and you are excited to be presented with opportunities to show your worth so you can go on to bigger and better things.
Its just so sad that those opportunities are probably the most dangerous you will come across in your flying career.
RIP

Fantome

10th Dec 2018, 14:25

Leave the debate to Mach E and Horatio. (Funny bastards to boot- oh you "supercilious ass" !) It is a fact that these two know what they are talking about (unlike the troll who should not be airing his ignorance here at all). Because I flew commercially for 30 years out of Hobart and Cambridge I too know, first hand, how severe the denture dislodging turbulence can be. (How about a cabin fire extinguisher - in a Heron - dislodged from it's parcel shelf attachment bracket, to then bounce about the cabin as the two drivers are holding onto the base of their seats with white knuckles with one hand , while the other is gripping the controls praying to get on the ground with some semblance of control?) Yes, my son - if you have not been there , then with all due respect , you know SFA about it.

Surely the ATSB can tell us, even now, whether it was a structural failure or a CFIT?

Dora-9

10th Dec 2018, 18:08

I didn't think I had anything to add until I saw the ZK-OBL entry (post #20). I flew as a pax on this aircraft from Queenstown to Milford Sound (thank God it was my wife's idea, or I'd have never heard the end of it), and we endured possibly the most severe turbulence I've ever encountered in my career (as Fantome so aptly puts it: denture dislodging turbulence). And then, despite the pilot's alleged choice of a smoother route home, we had an equally grueling tumble-dryer type flight back. I did wonder then about the fatigue life of the BN-2 then, so the possibilty of a structural failure in this case is eminently possible.

Very sad about the young lady involved.

Fantome

10th Dec 2018, 19:10

hullo adore a 9 . . .. . (Yes I always thought there was a lingering odour in that old workhorse OBL . . (.NOT Kiwi fruit!) . .. . at least you had the strength of ten. . .. if not in your abdomen . .. . then in the old Diesel.

(don't you love speaking in code?)

and yes . .. . I entirely share your sentiments about the deceased. . .. . . ("FATE IS THE HUNTER" . .. Ernie et al)

bekolblockage

10th Dec 2018, 20:26

(How about a cabin fire extinguisher - in a Heron - dislodged from it's parcel shelf attachment bracket, to then bounce about the cabin as the two drivers are holding onto the base of their seats with white knuckles with one hand , while the other is gripping the controls praying to get on the ground with some semblance of control?)

I don’t want to fuel the structural failure discussion- I can’t imagine this is going to be anything other than CFIT- but you brought back memories Fantome.

Paper runs to Hobart in the Heron at 3am passing the Great Western Tiers in strong South Westerlies. Some of those jolts made you look at each other and wonder how short of ripping the wings off that one was and how big the next one would be.

BB

CaptainEmad

10th Dec 2018, 22:26

Hobart TAF that morning.

TAF AMD YMHB 072036Z 0720/0818 16008KT CAVOK FM072200 16008KT 9999
-RA SCT010 FM080200 14012KT 7000 -SHRA BKN005 FM080900
18006KT 9999 SCT010 BKN025
PROB30 INTER 0720/0722 7000 TSRA SCT005 SCT080CB=

Heres an older youtube video,
https://youtu.be/7L6WpNuizvQ
just note the cloud base and circuit height on arrival at YBHB.
Typical for the weather down there to be pretty crappy. Am I correct in assuming that there is no RNAV approach published? I remember they were talking about publishing one years ago.

Horatio Leafblower

10th Dec 2018, 22:51

Leave the debate to Mach E and Horatio.

Fantome - I am not debating the cause of the accident, I am just sick of reading sensationalist melodramatic speculation on PPRuNe.

It really pisses me off when people immediately start calling in to question the pilot’s actions, or lack of experience, before a proper investigation has been concluded.

Mach E - Similarly, it irritates me when people invent the most incredibly imaginative possible causes when pilot error accidents (however described or caused) still outnumber other accidents 4:1
Maybe you could have done a quick fact check on your hypothesis before going out on a limb, eh?

growahead

10th Dec 2018, 23:08

Emad, note that the TAF you posted was amended, issued at 072036 for 2000/1800 period.
So, the times would suggest that Met had issued a late change, probably responding to unexpected changes in the actual conditions.
Local time of issue was 0736, by which time the pilot would be close to departure. It’s likely the pilot didn’t receive the changes. It would be interesting to know;
What the original TAF had forecast; and
if the amended TAF was passed on to the pilot.

Eddie Dean

10th Dec 2018, 23:59

Those speculating on structural failure may want to read up on SB 190, which is mandated for compliance in both Australia and NZ.
From memory is carried out every five years.
FWIW
Edit: Just read the AD, five years initial inspection and then every two years there after.

CaptainEmad

11th Dec 2018, 05:04

Local time of issue was 0736, by which time the pilot would be close to departure. It’s likely the pilot didn’t receive the changes. It would be interesting to know;
What the original TAF had forecast; and
if the amended TAF was passed on to the pilot.

Here is the previous TAF. I only attached the TAFS for interests sake.
TAF AMD YMHB 071705Z 0718/0818 (tel:0718/0818) 32008KT CAVOK FM072200 16008KT 9999
-RA SCT010 FM080200 14012KT 7000 -SHRA BKN005 FM080900
18006KT 9999 SCT010 BKN025
PROB30 INTER 0718/0722 7000 (tel:0718/0722 7000) TSRA SCT005 SCT080CB=

The Hobart TAF doesn’t tell you what the conditions are like around Federation Peak. I’m just suggesting if she was operating VFR, there are clues that it would be pretty crappy down there. I have flown that route over 100 times. Scared the bejezzus out of myself a couple.
Just wondering if anyone knows if they tend to operate IFR or VFR. I can find no published instrument plate for YBHB.

Anyone know the conditions that the Chopper or Challenger crew encountered on the day?

Mach E Avelli

11th Dec 2018, 08:53

Some here may well think that I and a few others come up with “incredibly imaginative possible causes” and believe in the statistic “pilot error accidents still outnumber other accidents 4:1” . I take no offence that I have an active imagination - honed from many years of wondering, knowing and occasionally experiencing, what can go wrong will go wrong.
But consider that most accidents result from more than one cause - often a combination of equipment, environmemt and the human. Old aircraft, primitive instrumentation, poor performance, mountainous terrain, bad weather, non existent instrument approach (and possibly no aircraft capability to do it anyway). Even if the tail did not fall off or the elevator cable did not break, or an engine was not down on power, this may not be simple CFIT.
CFIT implies it is all the pilot’s fault. All avenues including structure and maintenance history and instrument serviceability must be investigated. We owe that much to this unfortunate pilot and those who will grieve for her.
So here is another statistic ( I saw it on TV so it must be right): Of all occupations, that of aircraft pilot is the 3rd (or may have been 4th) most dangerous. Note “occupation” so the implication is that weekend warrior PPLs are not included. Now, we all know that airline flying is the safest mode of transport, so take out airline pilots from the data and we have GA as a very hazardous undertaking indeed. Up there with firefighting and bomb disposal.

Bend alot

11th Dec 2018, 10:57

[QUOTE=Mach E Avelli;10333068]
But consider that most accidents result from more than one cause - often a combination of equipment, environmemt and the human.

*** so aircraft - weather and location and pilot.

Old aircraft, primitive instrumentation, poor performance, mountainous terrain, bad weather, non existent instrument approach (and possibly no aircraft capability to do it anyway).

** New aircraft have a good and recent crash history - No it is actually published performance that the pilot studies and is aware about, I don't think any person disagrees about the weather being bad or that it was know an instrument approach was not possible - but they were far from needing an instrument approach.

Even if the tail did not fall off or the elevator cable did not break, or an engine was not down on power, this was no simple CFIT.

*** Fact trouble was far before the crash so no the tail did not fall off nor could a elevator cable have broken (check the actual flight data) - an engine down on power is a long shot - ref the POH and the surrounds and make a call. (but a good climb on a engine low power)

CFIT implies it is all the pilot’s fault. All avenues including structure and maintenance history and instrument serviceability must be investigated. We owe that much to this unfortunate pilot and those who will grieve for her.

** Prove one fact mate! you have nil.

So here is another statistic ( I saw it on TV so it must be right): Of all occupations, that of aircraft pilot is the 3rd (or may have been 4th) most dangerous. Note “occupation” so the implication is that weekend warrior PPLs are not included. Now, we all know that airline flying is the safest mode of transport, so take out airline pilots from the data and we have GA as a very hazardous undertaking indeed. Up there with firefighting and bomb disposal.

*** Disproved in a thread last week!

Mach E Avelli

11th Dec 2018, 18:04

Al Symers

11th Dec 2018, 19:39

I understand the young lady did not have an IR. Challenging conditions for a VFR pilot in a VFR aircraft. And considering she only received her CPL a year or so ago I do wonder why the owner of the company would tell the press she had been “working for them for 3 years” and “highly qualified and experienced”. He is the same person who regularly complains about CASAs “over regulation” of GA. Why must another young life be wasted by putting someone in a place they should not be, in weather that they are not qualified or equipped to fly in? Self regulation works for some operators and not others, hence we have CASAs “over regulation”. RIP Nikita.

Mach E Avelli

11th Dec 2018, 20:27

If true she did not have an IR, did she receive enough training in that particular operation? According to one statement she had already been appointed to train others in that operation.
I recall the same company lost two people in a Cessna on a photo mission during a Sydney Hobart yacht race a couple of years sgo. Did that pilot have appropriate low level flying training?

Eddie Dean

11th Dec 2018, 20:30

Eddie Dean is it a SB or an AD ? While it is comforting to know that there is an awareness of ageing aircraft, and a program specifically for the Islander, work done is only as good as those doing it and the components going in to it.
But the point I am attempting to make (but beyond the comprehension of some) is not that structural failure was the most likely cause, only that it - and any other equipment failure or design deficiency - must be eliminated by investigation before branding it as a CFIT and nothing but a CFIT.
Bent a lot out of shape seems to think that having expressed an opinion, and a concern that the investigation may rush to a conclusion, it is my job now to prove facts. He offers the ‘fact that trouble was far before the crash’ Que? Also that PPruNe is a reliable place for proof. As if...It is a SB mandated by an Airworthiness Directive. Sorry if that confused you.
Should you care to read SB 190 you will see that it is quite extensive, I would take exception to your implication that maintainers would not comply completely with the requirements therein.

I agree with with your comment that operators "force" inexperienced pilots to fly when perhaps the conditions are not conducive to safe flight.
Have seen this in PNG and Australia and have lost several young pilots due to this issue.

You have made several statements that Bend A Lot has listed and simply asked for substantiation of the same.
FWIW

machtuk

12th Dec 2018, 00:52

Its sad to read these pages after such a sad event, such an event can bring out the worst in people:-( One can only hope that we all as pilots can learn something from this girls early demise. Very few pilots wake up one morning & say I'm going to crash/die (some have sadly) so perhaps when the facts are in this thread may take a more civilized approach? We lost an aviator, someone is in mourning:-(

Fantome

12th Dec 2018, 02:17

Why might she not have taken the safer coastal route, most often favoured if the direct route over the Western Arthurs was at best marginal?

Squawk7700

12th Dec 2018, 03:00

Why might she not have taken the safer coastal route, most often favoured if the direct route over the Western Arthurs was at best marginal?

What is this weather you speak of, are you referring to the forecast?

My weather cameras located on the flight path recorded conditions suitable for VFR and likely VFR over the top.

There are also high resolution cameras located at the destination which would have showed conditions at the time for the pilot.

https://www.paravion.com.au/melaleuca-webcam/

Had the pilot been VFR over the top and wanting to get down, then that would be a concern.

Seagull201

12th Dec 2018, 06:45

It's very sad to hear and read the tragic accident, involving the young female pilot, resulting in a loss of life.

When I read all details, of the news article, i immediately thought of another accident, in 2004, an aero commander accident, from Hobart to Devonport( details are on internet),which was also flown by a female during an IFR flight in Tasmania (also only occupant on board).
It's very sad to hear the accident resulted in a loss of life.
Reading the details of the 2004 accident, the pilot had 40 hours on type and 371 total time.

I don't know if some type of Bermuda triangle appears in that part of the world, every decade or so, but I just WONDER, WHY, those accidents are happening, involving female pilots and being the sole occupant on board, covering such short trips.
I'm quite aware the terrain, environment, conditions, down there, can be SO CHALLENGING.

Capt Fathom

12th Dec 2018, 06:57

...but I just WONDER, WHY, those accidents are happening...

I'm quite aware the terrain, environment, conditions, down there, can be SO CHALLENGING.

You have just answered your own question!

LeadSled

12th Dec 2018, 07:57

Self regulation works for some operators and not others, hence we have CASAs “over regulation”. RIP Nikita.

Folks,
To be clear, there is NO SELF REGULATION in Australian aviation, whether you like it or not, there is one "regulator", CASA.

What kind of a job CASA does in risk minimisation, how it enforces the regulations, is a matter of widely varying opinion.

It is true that, in some sports and recreational areas, administration of the regulations (including any exemptions) is conducted by related associations, such as the GFA, RAOz., ABF, HGFA etc. None of these or like bodies have regulation making powers, even of some of their management at times behave like they think they do have such power.

"Administration of the regulations" is not "regulation".

Tootle pip!!

PS: The further clarify, I recommend Sir Humphrey's discourse on the difference between "The Administration of Policy" and the "Policy of Administration".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIto5mwDLxo

Duck Pilot

12th Dec 2018, 08:14

Sadly the current CPL training syllabus - Part 6111 thingo does even touch mountain flying for the VFR pilot. Our beloved cousins across the ditch have a fair idea together with a few old PNG bush pilots,

Mountain waves and being able to read the cloud formation in relation to where not to fly is an aquired skill. No one in Australia taught me this, I was self taught with the help of a few old hands, Tasmania and the Southern Alps have similar conditions under certain conditions. Anyone who has flown regularly into Tekin or Oksapimin will know what I’m talking about.

Mach E Avelli

12th Dec 2018, 10:26

Ducky, yes mountain flying training would be a useful addition to training, though I don't believe it needs to be within the basic CPL syllabus. Gaining a CPL is already costly enough.
Instead, require it to be part of induction and recurrent training when employed with a charter or air transport AOC. As the operator would be the main beneficiary, this would be the more fair approach. Charter company websites often lay claim that they can fly anywhere, any time, so that would include Tassie and PNG and other mountainous areas.
For those who do not wish to be burdened with this, CASA could endorse the AOC with ‘valid for flat earth operations only’ (children, I am kidding, but many claims to expertise and high standards on certain websites are misleading).
I can already hear the squeals of ‘over regulation’
For the record, I don’t want to see more regulations; fewer but pertinent regulations is the way to go.

Seagull, two pilots who happened to be female and flying alone is irrelevant. The only relevant factors in common with these two accidents appear to be a lack of experience and training combined with flying geriatric low performance aircraft over rugged terrain.
It has nothing to do with gender. Don’t go there!

601

12th Dec 2018, 12:04

The Australian Government believes in small business"

That statement is in line with their policy. However State Governments control the taxi industry and, sadly, most of the present State Governments could not give a ra about small business

Capn Bloggs

12th Dec 2018, 22:56

Sadly the current CPL training syllabus - Part 6111 thingo does even touch mountain flying for the VFR pilot.
"not" missing ??

NWS Inop

12th Dec 2018, 23:53

LeadSled

13th Dec 2018, 02:09

When I read all details, of the news article, i immediately thought of another accident, in 2004, an aero commander accident, from Hobart to Devonport( details are on internet),which was also flown by a female during an IFR flight in Tasmania (also only occupant on board).
It's very sad to hear the accident resulted in a loss of life.
Reading the details of the 2004 accident, the pilot had 40 hours on type and 371 total time.
.Folks,
I would be very wary of equating the two accidents, and there is considerable doubt as to the veracity of the "official" accident report on the Aero Commander.
The Aero Commander was a structural failure, both wings failed in symmetrical DOWNWARD bending just outboard of the engine nacelles. Those of you who know anything about the aerodynamic and structural design and the record of the type will understand the significance.
Without going into detail, there is a very strong presumption, from independent review of the accident, that the outcome was beyond the control of the pilot, and not as per the ATSB report.
Put another way, the experience and competence of the Aero Commander pilot was not a contributory factor to the accident.
Unless you have "been there, done that", you are unlikely to appreciate how fast the Wx changes in that part of the world, and how bad the turbulence can be, even in VMC, despite only moderate winds being forecast.
Tootle pip!!

Clare Prop

13th Dec 2018, 02:31

I just WONDER, WHY, those accidents are happening, involving female pilots and being the sole occupant on board, covering such short trips.
I'm quite aware the terrain, environment, conditions, down there, can be SO CHALLENGING.

Could it be that the gender of the pilot is actually irrelevant or are you saying we girlies aren't up to the job of flying in challenging conditions, especially not on our own? I hope not because that is what it sounds like.

Please show some respect for a young pilot whose last moments don't bear thinking about. RIP.

Seagull201

13th Dec 2018, 04:28

Could it be that the gender of the pilot is actually irrelevant or are you saying we girlies aren't up to the job of flying in challenging conditions, especially not on our own? I hope not because that is what it sounds like.

Please show some respect for a young pilot whose last moments don't bear thinking about. RIP.

Yourself and the other guy are INTERPRETING things YOUR WAY.
I'm sure you are quite aware, that woman are excellent aviators, in all operations of aviation.

I was commenting, WHY this and the OTHER accident happened, the reasons have been explained to me, by various experts, in their ways.
I never said or indicated, what you have wrote above!
That's your interpretation and things can get interpreted, in many different ways, by all types of people.

Fantome

13th Dec 2018, 04:30

Well said CP . . . . (seagulls, as anyone knows who has observed their habits, are great scavengers. . . . and naturally without a shred of decency as to whom they snatch their next morsel from . .. or go into the deafening flock cacophony of screeching over it . . hope that is not a bridge too far folks. . .. or too greater a draw on the long bow.)

Mach E Avelli

13th Dec 2018, 05:12

Love ya work Fantome!
One day we will have to swap Heron stories, but in the interest of staying on thread, not here.
As for chicks flying, some of the macho males here would not like to know that in my day job I see a very high standard set by the 'girlies' (if Clare will allow me to use her descriptor).
The young ones in particular study hard, learn quickly and fly nicely.
The worst that I see are high time blokes (typically 10,000 hour plus) who have had too many years in GA, missed out on airlines, and are now trying to cash in on current opportunities by moving to advanced equipment. Too often it is beyond their capabilities, or they expect it to be a walk in the park. Not all have problems, of course, but enough to tell me that standards in GA must be pretty ordinary for these characters to have consistently passed their IPCs.

Clare Prop

13th Dec 2018, 05:50

Yourself and the other guy are INTERPRETING things YOUR WAY.
I'm sure you are quite aware, that woman are excellent aviators, in all operations of aviation.

Yes I am quite aware thank you, please don't try to patronise me.

Fantome

13th Dec 2018, 06:42

Yep .. . the odour of patronisation is there alright. (Might suggest "put a sock in it" . . . but it would be one pretty putrid , if it was chucked at the wall, it would probably hang there). segue again . . . .. the late Harry Purvis used to do C & T for the old Connellan Airways. He was interviewed once by the local radio station (of which I happen to still have a transcript).
HARRY : "Well I have flown with all sorts in a long civil and air force career, but recently here on one of the station runs out of Alice Springs I was startled to see my FO bring out her knitting. Sitting there plying the old needles, Christine did not turn a hair. When I told this to Eddie (Connellan) he was highly amused." (In 'History and Nostalgia' there is a recent request for Connellan stories sought for a forthcoming biography.)

Seagull201

13th Dec 2018, 07:09

Yes I am quite aware thank you, please don't try to patronise me.

I have read, most of your posts Clare, when ever you have responded, to various topics, you are always level headed and people take notice, of your comments.

I knew quite well, someone, will pull me up, sooner or later, because, I have left my comments open for interpretation.

To be honest with everyone, i was so upset to hear and read, about the accident, that i really, had to ask the question, what happened?

I have seen the photos of the young lady, and i'm deeply saddened, to hear that the accident happened.
I remember the 2004 accident also, i was also very saddened to hear that situation.
I really hope, that, these type of accidents, never happen, to any pilot again.

The only reason, i drew parellel's, with both accidents, because, I wanted to know, what happened, and why these accidents are happening, in that part of Australia?

I can see for myself on the internet, the terrain is millions of years old, the weather closes in quickly.

In relation to the first accident, i have my own experiences, over a decade and a half ago, i was doing my Instrument Rating training run, on a cloudy and rainy day, the weather extending from Sydney to well past Dubbo.

I volunteered to fly with the instructor on a rainy and cloudy day, during the training run, we (myself and the instructor), were caught in a CELL, the cell, ROCKED, our aircraft, a DUCHESS, it was so bad, i really thought, it was over for me!

My instructor (gde 1 and charter pilot), KEPT up the normal CRUISE power setting, of, 23 inches MAP/2300 RPM, during the next 5 minutes, AND, we RELIGIOUSLY,
kept the ATTITUDE indicator level, i was ABOUT to reduce the POWER, in the CELL, the instructor said, NO!
YOU WILL STALL IT!
WE survived that encounter!
ON the ground, my instructor mentioned, if we crashed, the CORONER, would have concluded, THE WINGS HAD BROKEN OFF, DURING FLIGHT.
HE also mentioned, WE, were the only people OUT there, during the day.

What i'm saying, is, that single pilot IFR, CAN quickly, get, OUT OF CONTROL, in these light twin engine aircraft.

Airlines and Regional's, have 2 pilots and operate heavier aircraft, and fly well above the weather affected areas, to a certain degree.
Their operation is much safer, than single pilot IFR.

Cloudee

13th Dec 2018, 08:15

According to FlightAware this flight was planned at 4500 ft so I presume it was planned VFR. IFR lowest safe is 6,200 ft according to my flight planner. It appears the route flown was overland, close to direct. There are several peaks over 4000ft in the vicinity of a direct route so picking your way around these peaks with even moderate wind must be very challenging. I have no idea of the weather on this flight but I welll remember feeling the commercial pressure I put on myself early on in my flying in anything like marginal conditions. The trouble was that I just didn’t know enough to make informed judgements. Luckily a good boss and a bit of luck saw me through the early years. I’ll leave it to the investigation to comment on the circumstances and the decisions made in relation to this particular flight.

Fantome

13th Dec 2018, 15:40

I have read, most of your posts Clare, when ever you have responded, to various topics, you are always level headed and people take notice, of your comments.

I knew quite well, someone, will pull me up, sooner or later, because, I have left my comments open for interpretation.

To be honest with everyone, i was so upset to hear and read, about the accident, that i really, had to ask the question, what happened?

Hate to say it, but the tone here is parsonical, presumptuous, patronising, platitudinous, naive and hence prone to being picked to pieces, assuming a readiness to enter the lists, so to speak, there to engage in yet another "war of words". How terribly tiresome. As my father used to say to his youngest, know-all son , me, "Can't you hear yourself Boyo?."

flickit

13th Dec 2018, 20:35

I notice they have another older Islander on the run to Melaleuca today, VH-RTP, 1969 ...

desert goat

13th Dec 2018, 20:58

I do not know what caused this accident, and I think it is fair to say that nobody else on this electronic peanut gallery does either. Even if they did once have a scary training flight in a tonka toy twin over relatively benign terrain with an experienced pilot there to hold their hand.

I can say three things with a fair degree of confidence though;

1) The terrain and weather conditions in the south west of Tasmania demand respect, regardless of whether the pilot has 300 hours, or 30,000.

2) Unless things have changed dramatically since I was there last, I highly doubt that this particular company would let a CPL candidate through, or put a new pilot on the line, without making damn sure they had a decent amount of exposure to the terrain and weather conditions that are an everyday fact of life down there.

3) The pilot's gender had stuff all to do with it.

Those who knew or worked with the pilot concerned, or who were working or flying down there at the time, may know a bit more. But as far as I can see, pretty much everything else offered in this thread is just another load of verbal diarrhea.

As for the previous poster who asked if the pilot involved in the previous crash (PFT) had the correct low-level training- According to the ATSB report, yes he did. But based on my own experience-if you decide to screw around while in the low-level environment, then all the training in the world will not save you.

pithblot

13th Dec 2018, 23:02

Well said desert goat.

megan

14th Dec 2018, 01:25

Anyone know where to access a copy of the relevant area forecast? Searched BOM with no luck.

Eddie Dean

14th Dec 2018, 04:44

............................................................ ........3) The pilot's gender had stuff all to do with it........ How do you know this?????

Toruk Macto

14th Dec 2018, 05:10

Keep thinking about this, young pilot ( this instance female ) following her dreams . Taking on some of the most challenging terrain and weather in Australia . We all had holy **** moments , especially in early days with old aircraft . Nothing but respect . RIP .

machtuk

14th Dec 2018, 05:42

I'm almost embarrassed to be known as a pilot when I read some of the shameful stuff purported here! I guess human nature comes out the worst in such sad events:-(

Mach E Avelli

14th Dec 2018, 05:49

The most effective way to deal with a troll is to ignore IT (because trolls are neither male nor female).

Fantome

14th Dec 2018, 22:14

What is particularly annoying is the preponderance of people obsessed by the sound of their own voices and what they believe is their freedom to broadcast an opinion on any subject they think they have the right to so do, knowing not, caring not, a jot about their ignorance, gormlessness or blind self-promotion.

"Measure not with words the measureless,
Sink not the string of thought into the fathomless.
Who asks does err.
Who answers errs.
Say nought."

Anon.

Eddie Dean

15th Dec 2018, 01:01

Well said.

Eddie Dean What possible relevant physiological difference is present in one half of the population not the other? Please enlighten me so I can stop my daughter's flying lessons.Well it was tongue in cheek, but I was warned some time ago not to use satire on Australians as they just won't get it. But seeing how you asked, surely you must see the physiological differences between males/females/insert your non cis gender of choice.

Clare Prop

15th Dec 2018, 01:13

Well it was tongue in cheek, but I was warned some time ago not to use satire on Australians as they just won't get it. But seeing how you asked, surely you must see the physiological differences between males/females/insert your non cis gender of choice.

Satire: the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices.

How is anything about this accident humourous? It is a tragedy for the pilot and her family, friends and workmates. It would have been just as much of a tragedy if the pilot had had a different anatomy. That is called equality.

What's next, it happened because the sky wasn't pink?

megan

15th Dec 2018, 01:16

Fantome, agree with you, but I have thought of a few posters, precious darlings that they be, who I could send one of these.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/710x751/48255898_1900968710016084_6630576945425809408_n_f903a3f323ca 40a0eab1c34c707a8d81d046d5df.jpg

Just to get back on track, Area forecast anyone?

zanzibar

15th Dec 2018, 02:33

Eddie Dean What possible relevant physiological difference is present in one half of the population not the other?

Eddie Dean ..............surely you must see the physiological differences between males/females .............

I'm sure Leafblower can tell the difference, but his question was "what possible RELEVANT physiological difference .................?".

Horatio Leafblower

15th Dec 2018, 03:15

Just to get back on track, Area forecast anyone?

I have seen the GAF in question. It's very interesting.
#BOMfundingcuts #chickens #roost #hashtagsdontworkonpprune

Clare Prop

15th Dec 2018, 04:55

I'm not one to be "butthurt" but I do think the use of "humour" on this thread is lacking in taste

Fantome

15th Dec 2018, 09:43

Collins English Dictionary -

Satire is the use of humour (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/humour) or exaggeration in order to show (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/show) how foolish (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foolish) or wicked (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/wicked) some people's behaviour or ideas (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/idea) are.

So by this definition, which may well be the more usual interpretation than those that allude to ridiculing or criticising, satire may be taken in the sense of a touch of the gentle rapier barb. Satire as employed by the late John Clarke and by Clive James, both over many years of writing and public utterances, was never malicious. Clarke and James have both been great exemplars of good manners. Which of course does not mean, when resorting to satire, that the subject of that satire does not warrant a good sledging. ("It's not so much what you say, as how you say it.")