Let's get something straight

[Token Bird]

OK, in light of the recent thread entitled 'Brymon, this is unfair', I think it's time for a new thread on 'how to get that 1000 hours'. I'm not going to get into an argument about whether or not it is fair that Brymon lower their requirements for integrated graduates, that's what the other thread is for. Let's just talk about the best way to get a useful 1000 hours.

My plan is to go modular, like most people I do not have the time or money for an integrated course. However, unlike most people (it would seem) on this forum, I have never for a second imagined that I would walk into an airline job with 250 hours. I'm not daft. My plan is to sod the IR to start with and do a flight instructor rating. However, does this mean that I will end up with 1000 hours in singles and airlines still won't be interested 'cos I've been stuck in one-crew ops forever. This point was mentioned on the other thread.

My question is - is there a way round this or is the modular route basically dead in the water?

Also, how does one get multi-hours as an instructor. Presumably by instructing on twins. Presumably there is an extra rating for this. Does anyone know if there are any bizarre pre-requisites, such as 'you must have been instructing on singles for "blah" number of hours'? Would having a decent amount of twin hours in the 1000TT help allay the fears of the airline that you may be an old dog who can't be taught new tricks?

[GonvilleBromhead]

TB,

Yeah like you I read the Brymon thread with interest, and agree there is no point whining about the fairness of the rules.

My route is also to sod the IR in favour of FI for a while. I think the point made about 1000 hrs in only a single and the attractiveness to airlines is a bit harsh though.

We're all familiar with the levels of the aviation food chain etc, but the reality is 1000 hrs is 1000 hrs. I know at some of the larger schools, instructors get their ME hours up by carrying out ferry flights as often as possible. Ok, it's not a gauranteed way of building up constant ME time, but it is a way. Save hard, get to the states and do a bit over there, it all counts.

I know guys who instructed for a year or two, didn't have the greatest number of ME time, but got hired in a variety of roles.

Air taxi (if you can find it), it all helps.

The general gist of what I am saying is that maybe flying around in a PA-28 is not "the greatest" way to give the airlines what they want, but it beats what a hell a lot of other guys have to offer.

And as an aside from this, I know ex-instructors now employed in airline positions who say there is a heck of a difference in going in with 1000+ hrs than 250/300, just in general ability/confidence/awareness.

Don't flame me for this, I don't mean 1000 hrs = good pilot, 250 = bad, not at all, but in confidence, general awareness etc, the more experience the better.

All the best. :)

[Tarmach]

Sorry to go off topic slightly, but what time scale would we be looking at from finishing the modular course (gaining the MCC) and starting with an airline, flying TPs etc? I realise there are many variables in this question; however a rought estimate would suffice! :)

Thanks

Tarmach.

[Token Bird]

Tarmach,

Do you mean if you just apply with 250 hours and hope, or if you build up the 1000 hours like we were discussing? If it's the first one, I gather from this forum that a realistic estimate would be about 2 years. That means going back to your boring old job while you send off several hundred letters to airlines. I have no intention of going back to my ****ty job once I've left which is why I'm hoping to become an instructor in the interim. I doubt I'll even bother applying straight out of training. It'll just get me down when they ignore me,

TB

[Tarmach]

Sorry for not explaining myself correctly. What I meant was from probably starting out as a FI and then finding an airline job! How long do you think this process would take?

Tarmach

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Token Bird - I am impressed by your attitude and thinking.

My story runs like this:

1998 - 1999 worked at a desk using my degree whilst putting in 2 hours a night on ATPL correspondence with PPSC

Apr 1999 got a BCPL/IMC and FI rating and walked into a FI job at my local airfield 2 days later becuase I'd been setting it up for a year or two beforehand.

Feb 2000 joined British Aerospace in Jerez and they turned me into an approved Intrument Rating Instructor

Feb 2001 joined a UK scheduled jet operator on B733.

The Flying school year saw me average £800 a month, the time teaching airline cadets and the like saw me on a salary in excess of that enjoyed by FO TP drivers for British Regional et al and the first year jet salary is agreeable enough. Given that the modular old fashioned route only cost me £16k this has been a much more cost effective way of becoming an airline pilot than handing £55k to OATS. I would have missed the years earning teaching PPL, my first year (assuming I got a TP job staright away) salary would have been less than my FI salary and then I got a jet anyway. But with 1,500hrs rather than 200 which helps meet some of the requirement to move into the LHS.

Looking back I am telling you the stone cold truth that some of my happiest times at work and in the air occurred as a Flying Instructor. In 1999 there were me and 4 other 20 something lads flying all day together in the local airspace and drinking all night in the local pub. In 2000 I was with 80 odd people is similar age with a massive outdoor swimming pool and nothing to do each weekend but to work out where to go drinking... the number of times I woke up bobbing on the swimming pool or wrapped in a curtain in the TV lounge... <shudder>

Good times, good experience and in retrospect good money. If you factor in no standby, no flying if you didn't like the TAF, no night work, every weekend off, 9-5, larking around doing unusual attitudes or PFL's down to the flare... money for having fun really.

I've said it here several times over the years but its very true and I've seen it a lot - don't be in such a mad rush for the RHS of something made by Boeing or Airbus that you overlook the joys and rewards of all rest of the world of aviation. You'll have a long career in some jet or other and believe me you'll look back fondly on the path that got you there *if* you are wise enough.

Best of luck with it all,

WWW

[Token Bird]

I reckon it'd probably take about 1 1/2 years to build up the hours. Still no guarantee of a job though, especially not in jets. Luckily for me I have no plans to ever fly big jets, so I'll be happy with a turboprop job whereas most people on this forum would consider this to be an irritating stepping stone.

[Si]

Token Bird + Gromville,

So what your saying is that you aren't going to do the IR, but do the FI instead but then will you do the IR with the money you save from instructing or will you be applying for the airlines without an IR?? Surely you will need one beofre you fly the big stuff???

Sounds like a good plan to me though, i think I might give that a try! I'm only 19!

Si

[Tarmach]

Excellent post WWW! I guess it shows that you can still have a bloody good time without needing a Boeing or Airbus. I am sometimes surprised to read posts about FIs who can't wait to leave and head for that airline job, even though theyre flying professionally- I suppose as a wannabe myself I am also guilty of this too.

WWW, I'm just being nosey :D but what desk job were you doing at the time and how old were you? Didn't you need an IR to be an approved Intrument Rating Instructor (as your post only mentions you had a BCPL,IMC). Did you also upgrade at any point to a full CPL, and where did you do most of your training??

cheers,

Tarmach

(WWW, sighs, damn Tarmach and his questions!!!)
:D :D :D :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Tarmach - I did my IR in Nov 1999 when I had 1,000hrs under my belt - it was shortly afterwards that I went to Jerez.

The advantage was that I found the IR manageable - I had been flying every day 6 days a week all year and often in proper IMC... Hence I did the multi rating and the IR training in 17.3 hrs TT. And I am in no way Gods gift to aviation but I did pass first time. At nearly £300 per hr its a damn good job too!

I spent that year teaching PPLs teaching myself a lot of the IR. Once you've got a bit of capacity as an FI then you can quite fairly use some of the airborne time practicing things yourself... e.g. Qualifying cross country into Filton allowed me watch an ILS indication whilst Bloggs flew visually, basic radio aid nav work whilst Bloggs is under the hood and we are above or in cloud, got a PPL checkout in a new higher perfomance club a/c - good opportunity to keep your own unusual attitude instrument recoveries up to sheen...

If done carefully you are not depriving the student of any of the time that they are paying for.

As for the desk job - I did a degree in Psychology and Management of the Human Resource. I got one of the very very few local jobs completely unconnected with sheep ;) working as the Training & Development Officer for an electronics firm hosting circa 1,000 employees locally. It was a good job in many ways - not least was the reality check of working with people from the shop floor and seeing up close and personal their working lives/loves/aspirations/frustrations. It helps keep you grounded when you get tempted into Olympic sized company whinging conversations on the flightdeck as you blast out of Nice over the sunset illuminated Alps sipping coffee...

WWW

[Delta Wun-Wun]

I think it`s been said before,once you have your CPL/IR , do something to keep current.A 1000 hrs hurtling around the sky in a 152/PA28 as an Instructor is a lot better than sitting back and not flying.
I was taught my PPL by a career Instructor who had in excess of 20000 hrs in his 30 yrs Instructing.He said he`d only been away for 6 mths when he took an office job on twice what he was earning as an Instructor.....he realised it was the biggest mistake of his life.
I have a very long way to go yet...First lot of exams in Deecember.But once everything is done then I will save up and do a flight Instructor course to help experience.

[scroggs]

There's a great deal of wisdom in what WWW says about not being in too much of a rush to get that Boeing or Airbus seat. Flying should be fun, and instructing is excellent fun - I did nearly 5 years instructing on a UAS and it was some of the best flying I've ever done.
Travelling around the world has its benefits, but it isn't half as much fun as throwing a small aircraft around the sky before heading pub-wards with a group of like-minded people. Unless money is your only motivation, go and do some fun flying before you hit the aluminum-tube treadmill ;)

[old-timer]

I have heard good reports also about instructing,
I worked with a guy who instructed,
then moved on to traffic reporting for
the local radio (I remember clearly the day he told that he was applying for it,
it was a long shot, but it came good ;-)
Magic happens, just put in the effort
to help it along,
if you want it bad enough it happens somehow,
but you MUST be clear minded & accept
that you can't walk into the jet flight deck
just like that, it is a diiferent world,
with additional pressures, but it IS
achievable by mere mortals ;-)

have fun

[GonvilleBromhead]

Si,

Yes you are correct in saying that to apply to airlines (which I'm sure the majority of us want in time but good points made here about not being in tooooooo much of a rush to get there) you will need the IR.

However I know from close friends (ex-FI's) that, leaving aside the actual "target" if you like of 1000+ hrs for a moment, instructing is enjoyable, and importantly enables you to gain more confidence/general ability/airmanship etc (i.e. all good points)at a relatively early stage which will stand you in excellent stead for your flying later on.

When the time comes to tackle the IR, I would rather have 1000 hrs under my belt than not, when it comes to airline transition, again the same applies.

Plus if you do the IR with around 250 hours, currency could become expensive if a job does not materialise fairly quickly.

All in all, I really can't see too many downsides to instructing for a couple of years and it amazes me to think that for so many guys who are keen to attain a flying position, instructing is almost looked upon a bit negatively. Why ?? You surely cannot lose. Ok, maybe the pay isn't going to be wonderful (only for a while), but to let that be an excuse when people have got this far ?!?

Yes flying should be fun, interesting and if possible, varied. There are many years to come of trans-atlantic sectors, make the best of GA to your benefit while you can.

:)

[Si]

Gonville,

I totally agree with what your saying and am now going to do it this way!
I figured that I am only 19 so doing 2-3 years of instructing will not hinder my chances with an airline as i should only be around 22ish by the time I can look to the airlines, plus i can still live at home (if I get an instructing job local) and therefore save for my IR, and do it nearer the time. I think at the moment instructing jobs should be a little easier to come across than an airline job when i only have 250hrs.
Like WWW said it only took him around 18 hours to do his IR and ME because he was so used to flying in Instrument Conditions etc that it was sooo much easier.

Just one question though, to anyone who has done this or thinking of doing this, if you apply to the bigger schools i.e any of the approved places, do you need an IR rating as well as an FI or is that not a factor?

Cheers,

Si

[Token Bird]

Si,

Yes my plan is to get the IR later. It seems to make more sense to do it that way then I don't have to worry about keeping it current while I'm working as an instructor. Much better to leave it until I have the hours that'll actually give me a reasonable chance of landing an airline job. Also, I don't have quite enough money for the CPL, ATPL, FI and IR, so I'll have to borrow a bit from the bank, and the bank may be more positive about lending it to someone who has already worked as an instructor, therefore demonstrating a commitment to aviation.

WWW, thanks for the encouragement. I am actually looking forward to instructing in itself. However, I'm not quite sure how easy I'm gonna find it to go from a well-paid IT salary to an instructor's salary,

TB

[GonvilleBromhead]

Si,

If you apply to become an FI at one of the larger schools, you will then go on to teach PPL's so I would very much doubt that an IR would be a requirement.

all the best,

GB.

[TheNavigator]

Excellent topic Token Bird.

Very good and helpful comments Scroggs and WWW. Thanks for that!

In addition to what has already been discussed here, what I would like to see is some comments regarding the actual content of the flying during the hour building phase in anticipation of the CPL.

My idea is to achieve ratings during this phase such as a night rating, complex aircraft, multi engine and maybe an IMC.

In addition to this work what would be the most appropriate way of building these hours? Certainly not flying in circles? What I mean is what sort of exercises and/or techniques to perfect?

Should we have an Instructor involved in some of this flying to make sure this phase is conducted the best way? Maybe this could be part of the pprune mentoring scheme?

For example, SFC has an Hour Building Course, which might go towards what I am asking, but the cost is a bit on the high side.

Any comments on this are appreciated.

Thanks

[scroggs]

TB
with your IT experience, you may be able to do a bit of consulting on the side while instructing. I know this has tax implications, but if money's an issue it'd be worth considering. I'm not really qualified to talk about the IR following your proposed route, but I would have thought that it might be in your employer's interest to put you through the course so that you can teach IMC etc? I appreciate that it depends on who you're working for, but it's worth a try!
Nav
I assume from what you say that you're going to pay your own way through the hour building, rather than go the instructor route? In which case I'd most certainly get an FI involved from time to time, both to set you a 'syllabus' to follow and to occasionally check that you're progressing as well as you can. In your career ahead, progress and other checks become part of your way of life; you could well profit by getting used to it now!
I shan't comment on what may or may not be part of the mentoring scheme, but you've given me something to think about, thanks!

[TheNavigator]

Scroggs,

Thanks for your reply.

The hour building I mentioned refers to those hours required before CPL training. Nevertheless, I think your answer still applies.

After the CPL I intend to follow the instructor route as one way to build hours and experience. I hope that during this phase I can get involved in more advanced flight training for the various additional ratings. Eventually during this phase, I hope to do the IR and get involved in this type of training as well.

One other reason to chose this route is that I really like the idea to get paid to fly and I believe that there is a great deal of experience to gain from this sort of work. I also believe that this is pure aviation at its best …

Thanks for taking time to consider and think about whether this sort of support and/or guidance should be available through the mentoring scheme. This could be a nice topic to discuss during the December seminars.