View Full Version : Frontier Airbus "blasted" engine...!?
JanetFlight
30th Nov 2018, 17:05
An amazing picture indeed...some hours ago between Tampa and Vegas :cool:
https://twitter.com/DanPonceTV?fbclid=IwAR0aIFN7K7dujWe-VVKPRcNiChPcx_wlGkfVcorifAKsipnkjRjYiEu9eRI
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/dtq3y6twoaazf6__4306e1fd373f68e0d134a50fed0f9105ff5e6cea.jpg
vee1-rotate
30th Nov 2018, 17:10
Can't be good for the airflow
underfire
30th Nov 2018, 17:16
Doesnt look as dramatic when on the ground. I think they just took delivery of this ac on Oct 29.....oops that is 2016, not 2018...
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/5c016ab6baf33_image_04d56057d2b587b966185aabefc227f96fc1286e .jpg
Airbubba
30th Nov 2018, 17:19
It was Frontier 260 LAS-TPA with a nice view of Sloan Canyon.
underfire
30th Nov 2018, 17:20
LAS VEGAS (KSNV) — A Frontier flight from Las Vegas to Tampa, Florida, had to return to the airport after an engine cover came off of the aircraft, according to an airline spokesperson.
Frontier Flight 260 took off from McCarran International Airport with a scheduled 7 a.m. departure time, but it had to return for an "engine concern," said Christine Crews with Clark County Aviation.
The flight landed back at McCarran just after 7:25 a.m. with no reports of injuries. Crews said 166 people were on board the plane, an Airbus A320.
Frontier's website listed the flight as canceled, with an originally scheduled arrival time of 2:17 EST at Tampa International Airport.
In a statement, Frontier said a cowling, or engine cover, came loose and pilots immediately returned to McCarran.
"The engine continued to operate normally and the aircraft, an Airbus 320, landed safely," the statement reads. "Safety is our top priority at Frontier Airlines and we would like to acknowledge the professionalism of our pilots and flight attendants. We are working to get our passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible.”
DaveReidUK
30th Nov 2018, 17:21
A320 (CFM), first flight of the day after a nightstop ...
Airborne barely 15 minutes.
Oh dear.
Alwaysairbus
30th Nov 2018, 18:37
30 years of issues on both CEO engine types and still no re-design. Hopefully its different on the NEO?
tdracer
30th Nov 2018, 18:49
Are those witness marks on the leading edge of the sharklet? Or is it simply a reflection or part of the paint scheme?
I wouldn't expect engine bits to get that far outboard, but sometimes the airflow does funny things.
CONSO
30th Nov 2018, 19:01
Are those witness marks on the leading edge of the sharklet? Or is it simply a reflection or part of the paint scheme?
I wouldn't expect engine bits to get that far outboard, but sometimes the airflow does funny things.
Looks like a pic of a BROWN BEAR - either part of a paint scheme on body or on sharklet - unless it was a reflection of a "passenger " looking out a window ;)
lower " mark" appears to be a nav light
upper paint leading edge on sharklet may just be ' wear' under magnification
DaveReidUK
30th Nov 2018, 19:10
Say "hi" to Grizwald the bear.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/669x671/grizwald_f9050f47a4baeade8266714ec935533c5f6c9114.jpg
clarkieboy
30th Nov 2018, 19:16
A wee bit different from the usual fan cowl issues, in as much as the two reverser C-ducts have lifted......
DaveReidUK
30th Nov 2018, 19:41
A wee bit different from the usual fan cowl issues, in as much as the two reverser C-ducts have lifted......
The fan cowl door on the CFM56 overlaps the thrust reverser door by an inch or two, so if it was the reverser doors that opened first they would likely take the fan cowl doors with them.
The Ancient Geek
30th Nov 2018, 19:48
Either way its a double dose of carelessness, once by mtce not securing it properly and again by the crew not checking properly during the walkaround. These incidents keep happening despite regular warnings to inspect the fixings before flight.
WOTME?
30th Nov 2018, 20:25
A320's have a long history of this....how long before it causes fatalities?
clarkieboy
30th Nov 2018, 21:03
The fan cowl door on the CFM56 overlaps the thrust reverser door by an inch or two, so if it was the reverser doors that opened first they would likely take the fan cowl doors with them.
Aye, they do. God knows I’ve opened, and shut properly, a few. I doubt this time the C-ducts were not latched, can’t tell from the pictures if the fan was or not. Guessing from the lack of fan cowl bottoms, probably was latched.
lomapaseo
30th Nov 2018, 21:15
A wee bit different from the usual fan cowl issues, in as much as the two reverser C-ducts have lifted......
A far more serious event with a lot more drag and no fire suppression
WillFlyForCheese
30th Nov 2018, 21:23
Doesnt look as dramatic when on the ground. I think they just took delivery of this ac on Oct 29.....oops that is 2016, not 2018...
Grizwald was delivered October of 2014 . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yx9LUDfAVM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqvtLMfFaOM
DaveReidUK
30th Nov 2018, 21:28
I doubt this time the C-ducts were not latched, can’t tell from the pictures if the fan was or not. Guessing from the lack of fan cowl bottoms, probably was latched.
So if both the reverser doors and fan cowls were correctly latched, WTF happened ?
clarkieboy
30th Nov 2018, 22:30
So if both the reverser doors and fan cowls were correctly latched, WTF happened ?
Sorry, my bad English. Just remembered why I read but don’t write.
In my humble opinion the C-ducts were not latched correctly, and I am not sure if the fan cowls were. However, if I was to venture a guess, I think they were latched correctly. This is only my opinion, and purely based on working on 320s for 20 years. Back to reading for Iain.
MartinAOA
30th Nov 2018, 23:20
Did they land with slats extended or retracted?
Seems like the damage would interfere with the extended slats.
tdracer
30th Nov 2018, 23:20
Grizwald was delivered October of 2014 . . .
Thanks - what I was looking at was the strobe which is obvious in your posted videos. There is something 'unusual' I see in the curve of the sharklet, but looking closer I think it's just a reflection.
lomapaseo
1st Dec 2018, 01:02
I wonder if the plane's rudder crossover point was affected
krismiler
1st Dec 2018, 07:33
30 years of issues on both CEO engine types and still no re-design. Hopefully its different on the NEO?
The NEO has an ECAM warning if the cowls aren't latched properly.
'Captain, are you absolutely sure you want to deploy the flaps and slats?'
This raises some interesting questions.
What if on approach the door detaches and takes some slats with it?
I'd rather pick a long runway and land clean..
I wonder what this crew did.
DaveReidUK
1st Dec 2018, 08:20
Sorry, my bad English. Just remembered why I read but don’t write.In my humble opinion the C-ducts were not latched correctly, and I am not sure if the fan cowls were. However, if I was to venture a guess, I think they were latched correctly
Thanks, that makes sense. We don't hear much about unlatched A320 family fan cowls nowadays following the respective mods on both CFM- and IAE-powered aircraft to make the unlatched state more obvious.
The reverser doors, on the other hand, don't appear to have any such conspicuity aids and, as the photo of the aircraft back on the ground shows, they will settle in the completely closed position in the absence of any aerodynamic forces.
So my conclusion would be the same as yours - the aircraft departed with the fan cowl doors correctly latched, reverser doors closed but unlatched.
Given the damage that even the relatively light fan cowl door has previously done to the stabilizer as it departed, it's fortunate that the much heavier reverser door remained attached to the pylon.
"The engine continued to operate normally and the aircraft, an Airbus 320, landed safely," the statement reads. "Safety is our top priority at Frontier Airlines and we would like to acknowledge the professionalism of our pilots and flight attendants. We are working to get our passengers to their destinations as quickly as possible.”
The engine may well have been turning but I doubt the thrust wasn't affected. Exhaust nozzles are carefully crafted to make the most of the engine's power.
The assymetric drag must have been horrendous. Kudos to the crew getting it down safe. Final approach and flare must have been tricky with changinging attitude.
Edit: I thought one could not latch the fan cowls with the c ducts unlatched. Certainly on the bigger fan engines there is a large red handle that hangs down when un latched making it impossible to close the fan cowls. Its that long since I've opened an A320's c duct.
Nope, I was wrong. CFM56 has no such 'idiot' handle.
CFM56 Cowl Opening Video
V2500 is a bit different and also has the access panel hanging down underneath.
V2500 Cowl Opening
clarkieboy
1st Dec 2018, 08:57
V2500 is a bit different and also has the access panel hanging down underneath.
It also has an orange flag which hangs down if the fwd C-duct latch is not engaged. Not shown in your video, but when they engage the fwd latch, you can see a rod with a spring, that's the flag assembly.
Ah, right, i see it now.
So, this is either a huge and unknown mechanical failure of all the latches or procedures not followed, again. If the T/R is disarmed, the Slats deactivated and all the associated flags are hung in the flightdeck, then this kind of thing really should not happen. We, as certifying engineers really need to dig in and kick back against the pressures to get an on time departure or get to the next job and just follow procedures-everytime. Lives are at stake.
DaveReidUK
1st Dec 2018, 10:06
Just to clarify, Frontier's A320s are CFM-powered, so no interlock or conspicuity aids on the reverser door latches unlike the IAE-powered aircraft.
Does anyone know if the latches are of the type that can be partially closed (to avoid impaling yourself on them) without the hooks engaging ?
They aren't exactly hard to see when they're fully open:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/774x630/cfm56_c_duct_latches_31645c2bfcbb3ef558604a95696984919dbe04d 0.jpg
aircraftmaintenance
1st Dec 2018, 10:57
You may find this YouTube video interesting: 'The Airbus A320 family engine access doors case'
As well as a relevant journal article: 'The airbus A320 family fan cowl door safety modification: a human factors scenario analysis'
aircraftmaintenance
1st Dec 2018, 10:59
The airbus A320 family fan cowl door safety modification: a human factors scenario analysis:
Purpose
The Airbus A320 family engine fan cowl doors (FCDs) safety issue is known to the industry for almost 18 years; however, it has not been addressed adequately by the aircraft manufacturer and the various operators and regulating authorities. The purpose of this paper is to examine in a systematic way the possible operational and safety implications of a new modification on the engine FCDs.
Design/methodology/approach
An array of error-prone scenarios is presented and analysed under the prism of human factors in a non-exhaustive qualitative scenario analysis.
Findings
All examined scenarios are considered more or less probable. A number of accident prevention solutions are proposed for each of the scenario examined, in view of the acceptance and implementation of this modification by operators.
Research limitations/implications
As these scenarios are neither exhaustive nor have been tested/validated in actual aircraft maintenance practice, the further analysis is necessary. A substantial follow-up survey should take place, which should include a wider array of scenarios. This would allow obtaining the necessary data for a quantitative (statistical) analysis.
Practical implications
This case study identifies issues in relation to this modification, introduced by Airbus and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), which may prove problematic from the point of view of safety effectiveness and disruption of operations.
Originality/value
This case study examines a long-standing aviation safety issue and the implications of a solution proposed by the aircraft manufacturer and adopted by EASA. This can be useful in increasing the awareness around these issues and highlight the importance of a human-centric and scenario-based design of engineering modifications towards minimising error in aircraft technical operations.
DaveReidUK
1st Dec 2018, 12:24
You may find this YouTube video interesting: 'The Airbus A320 family engine access doors case'
As well as a relevant journal article: 'The airbus A320 family fan cowl door safety modification: a human factors scenario analysis'
Interesting (links would have been good), but not necessarily relevant in this instance.
The fan cowl door mods are indeed intended to ensure that they get correctly latched and therefore cannot open of their own accord.
But even correctly latched fan cowl doors don't stand much of a chance if they are being prised open by a departing reverser door, as may well have happened in this case.
The NEO has an ECAM warning if the cowls aren't latched properly.
And flags at the cowls. However, according to the training documents to the A321NEO with Leap engines i have seen, the ECAM warning only comes on if at least 2 latches are open, not for a single latch though.
NWA SLF
1st Dec 2018, 16:34
Pilots reported to ATC that the cabin crew reported the problem as an engine fire but they saw no engine problems from their instruments. With the loss of ducting should they not have lost thrust on the right side, and also the drag of the open covers should have been an indicator. Is the Airbus automation enough to compensate to the point where the pilots felt and saw no indication of a problem? As an engineer on land bound mobile equipment I remember one of our first production intent engines with FADEC controls being assembled with a timing gear assembled one tooth out of time. The FADEC compensated so it passed the factory dyno test, engine was installed in a machine, operated perfectly until at 37.3 hours valves bouncing off piston tops broke a valve head off and things went bust. New technology can cover a lot of mistakes - for awhile.
Are those witness marks on the leading edge of the sharklet? Or is it simply a reflection or part of the paint scheme?
I wouldn't expect engine bits to get that far outboard, but sometimes the airflow does funny things.
I assume you’re asking about the off-coloured section on the lower leading edge of the winglet. Could this be a structural repair?
FlightDetent
1st Dec 2018, 17:02
The basic logic of the F/CTL system is that it will manipulate the ailerons, spoilers, elevator, stabilizer and rudder so that the path of the A/C matches what the pilot demands with his inputs on the controls. As such, in the situation presented here, the system would compensate.
We are not trained to know how far before the physical end-stop of the surfaces it will go. I.e. once the system is unable to cope and the aircraft departs the commanded trajectory, is there any more control authority available to the pilot? Hard to even speculate, it is designed very carefully.
An anecdote: during type conversion training, the 2nd lesson should be to have an engine fail on take-off. The trainee is then required to only control pitch up or down, and observe the F/CTL inherent reaction to the asymmetry. If memory serves well, she will end with about 7 degrees of bank, un-coordinated turn but climb away safely. Well, climb around. :)
lomapaseo
1st Dec 2018, 18:21
Pilots reported to ATC that the cabin crew reported the problem as an engine fire but they saw no engine problems from their instruments. With the loss of ducting should they not have lost thrust on the right side, and also the drag of the open covers should have been an indicator. Is the Airbus automation enough to compensate to the point where the pilots felt and saw no indication of a problem? As an engineer on land bound mobile equipment I remember one of our first production intent engines with FADEC controls being assembled with a timing gear assembled one tooth out of time. The FADEC compensated so it passed the factory dyno test, engine was installed in a machine, operated perfectly until at 37.3 hours valves bouncing off piston tops broke a valve head off and things went bust. New technology can cover a lot of mistakes - for awhile.
I could find no mention of an engine fire being actioned. and/or airplane managing
ampclamp
3rd Dec 2018, 00:52
Asking current and experienced 320 family pilots.
What you do in this situation? I take it there's no actual procedure for this type of event, but curious as to what approach you pro pilots would take. Just throwing a few things in there as questions.
Stabilize, assess, check lists, look at ECAM for failures/warnings , speak to your tech people, send your FO back to have a look?
Deploy slat/flaps and risk further unknown effects or land flaps up?
SnowFella
3rd Dec 2018, 03:51
I could find no mention of an engine fire being actioned. and/or airplane managing
Listening to the ATC tapes there seem atleast be some mention of possible engine fire reported by the cabin crew.
2:26 into the below video.
https://youtu.be/WYNanAZlxyk
Airbubba
4th Dec 2018, 16:07
Meanwhile, back in the cabin...
Frontier Airlines Passengers 'Jumping Up,' 'Yelling Stop' as Engine Piece Detaches on Take Off
Madison Roberts (https://people.com/author/madison-roberts/) (https://twitter.com/madisonlaner) December 03, 2018 02:30 PM
Passengers on board a flight from Las Vegas to Tampa, Florida, on Friday were in for a scare when a section of their plane’s engine broke off during take off, forcing an emergency landing.
According to a spokesperson for Frontier Airlines, (https://people.com/home/frontier-airlines-backlash-unaccompanied-minors-diverted-flight-hotel/) during a flight on Nov. 30, a piece of the engine cover, identified as the “cowling,” came “loose and separated from the aircraft.”
Some passengers on board the aircraft (https://people.com/tag/airline-news/) were understandably in a state of panic after seeing the piece detach. Brandon Rittiman, who’s Twitter bio says he is a special projects reporter for ABC 10 Sacramento, tweeted a photo of the plane’s engine provided by his friend CJ Gunnerson, who was on the flight when the incident occurred.
Gunnerson told him “the hatch came up and ripped off during take off,” and that people were “jumping up screaming, slamming on the roof. Yelling stop,” Rittiman says.
https://people.com/home/frontier-airlines-engine-detaches-during-take-off-emergency-landing/