WSO vs WSOp Questions

[Charliehotel47]

Morning chaps,

I have been offered the roles of WSOp and WSO (both with high aptitude scores) following OASC and I’m hoping for some gen on each.


Whilst I believe that a WSOp role would offer broader flying experience and would give me the chance to pursue a rotary crewman position, I am torn between this and gaining a commission. Money isn’t really an issue as the earning potential whilst flying between the two roles seem to broadly mirror each other.


So if I may, I have a few (non role related) questions;

Is there much an officer can do that a SNCO cannot?

Are the opportunities afforded to officers much greater than those for SNCO’s? With regards to lifestyle, benefits etc?

Officers mess/accommodation vs SNCO’s accommodation and SGTs mess?

Prestige of being an SNCO vs an officer?

Recruitment outlook for Crewman at Odiham/Benson?


Thank you so much,

CH

[camelspyyder]

Choose WSO, WSO, and then WSO.

And that's coming from a 36 year served AEOp / WSOp (who was always happy with his lot, I hasten to add)

1. The money is very important. When flying pay kicks in the difference is huge.

2. The promotion prospects as a WSOp are poor - the competition is enormous. The prospects as a WSO (given that its a near dead branch about to have a new influx of people) are surely much better.

3 Look ahead 8 to 10 years: one will probably still be a Sergeant, the other possibly a Squadron Leader. (then see how the money pans out - at a rough guess £40k versus £70k)

4.The chance of better and more varied postings, especially overseas, is generally going to be for WSO.

The Military is run by Officers, for Officers. If you have the chance that is the way you should enter the Service. Everything from pay, promotion prospects, responsibility, varied career development etc. points that way. Enlisted personnel do not have the same life at all.

By the way living in either Mess is awful. On base accommodation upgrades have correctly prioritised the Junior ranks, so many Messes date from the 1930's to the 1960's and are horrid.

[Charliehotel47]

Choose WSO, WSO, and then WSO.

And that's coming from a 36 year served AEOp / WSOp (who was always happy with his lot, I hasten to add)

1. The money is very important. When flying pay kicks in the difference is huge.

2. The promotion prospects as a WSOp are poor - the competition is enormous. The prospects as a WSO (given that its a near dead branch about to have a new influx of people) are surely much better.

3 Look ahead 8 to 10 years: one will probably still be a Sergeant, the other possibly a Squadron Leader. (then see how the money pans out - at a rough guess £40k versus £70k)

4.The chance of better and more varied postings, especially overseas, is generally going to be for WSO.

The Military is run by Officers, for Officers. If you have the chance that is the way you should enter the Service. Everything from pay, promotion prospects, responsibility, varied career development etc. points that way. Enlisted personnel do not have the same life at all.

By the way living in either Mess is awful. On base accommodation upgrades have correctly prioritised the Junior ranks, so many Messes date from the 1930's to the 1960's and are horrid.

Thank you,

I didn’t realise the promotion prospects in the WSOp branch were so poor. Do you mind if I PM you with a couple of questions?

Really appreciate the advice.
Charlie

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You can’t use the Private Messaging system in or out, add url links or images until you have an established posting history. Email should be open for you both in and out.

[downsizer]

Echo what is said above. Go WSO.

[camelspyyder]

The Competition for promotion is intense as a WSOp. Time was when each Aircrew trade had its own promotions so EW specialists were not competing with Loadmasters or Rotary crewmen. Now everyone is in one pot and numbers promoted are small. Worse, promotion actually depends not only what you do, but how talented a writer your Reporting Officer is. You could be the best flyer on the base, and also a noted sportsman who spends all his spare time doing charitable works. It won't matter a fig if your one up can't write a perfect report. It's a fact that a lot of Flight Sergeants struggle with report writing, so it's pot luck. As a Junior Officer, your reports will probably be written by a Squadron Leader, who should have had a lot more military leadership and management education to prepare him for that important task.

[Charliehotel47]

Thank you CamelSpyyder, I can’t send PM’s yet so I have sent you an email.

Cheers!

[MPN11]

Fundamentally, which branch of a career tree would you like to perch on?

It’s not about now, or even (say) 2030, but beyond. A WSOp career is potentially relatively brief and certainly constrained (as noted above) in comparison to a WSO with prospects to age 55 and a decent pension thereafter. The latter also, IMO, offers wider career opportunities rather than just pure ‘specialism’, leading to a better CV if you decide to leave at some intermediate career point.

[Charliehotel47]

I just sent the following email to Camelspyyder but I would be really interested to hear your views too MPN and Downsizer.

I am trying to learn a bit more about the role of WSO and their day to day life. All outlines online seem to be relatively vague. So a WSO controls the aircraft systems and manages a team of WSOp’s, each specialising in an individual system (Linguistics, ELINT, SIGINT etc).

What I want to know is more of the reality of daily life as a WSO on an ISTAR platform.

Are you regularly deployed/able to spend time abroad? This is one of the reasons I’m joining the forces and trying to avoid roles such as RPAS (P).

Is the work interesting? Did you find it exciting/captivating/fulfilling?

Even though you’re flying, does it actually add anything to the enjoyment of the role? I read a throwaway comment about ‘just having an office job in a tin tube’. What is working in the air like?

Any sketchy moments during your time?

And finally, do you have any general advice for somebody in my position?

Thank you so much for your help, it’s really appreciated,

[PapaDolmio]

So you've been offered both specialisations and don't really know what either of them do?

[Charliehotel47]

So you've been offered both specialisations and don't really know what either of them do?

I will try not to bite.

Firstly, the MFTS backlog has meant that older pilot candidates in the sift are being offered other roles. So no, I don’t know as much about these two roles as I do my original first choice, Pilot.

Secondly, I clearly state that I know about their individual functions, the ‘official’ job description. If you read the post again, what I was asking for was gen on the REALITY of the role, the opinions that you won’t find in official correspondence.

Thank you you nonetheless for your contribution.

[Pontius Navigator]

CH47, as a long retired old nav all I will add is that where I thought I was going when I started bore no relation to the career I eventually completed nearly 50 years later.

The journey was varied, challenging and always interesting. I had more good bosses than bad. Go for it.

[MPN11]

CH47, I’m a long retired ATCO who actually went through OCTU on the Course after young TTN! BUT, as an officer, my career branched out beyond the narrow confines of my Specialisation ... and these opportunities are infinitely greater than in my time (65-94). I never expected to find myself involved in Civil NATS Procurement, MoD Int Staff, or running a section in War Plans and Policy on the Air Staff at MoD.

After 4 tours as a ‘simple’ ATCO, doing the basic stuff in both Terminal and Area ATC, I asked for (and got) a Staff job. Chasing little dots around a radar tube is quite interesting and challenging, but after 10 years of that the ‘broader horizons’ began to appeal. Some colleagues were perfectly happy to keep doing the same thing, year in and year out (albeit at different Units) ... can you predict your boredom/routine threshold 10 years from now? ;)

[PapaDolmio]

I will try not to bite.

Firstly, the MFTS backlog has meant that older pilot candidates in the sift are being offered other roles. So no, I don’t know as much about these two roles as I do my original first choice, Pilot.

Secondly, I clearly state that I know about their individual functions, the ‘official’ job description. If you read the post again, what I was asking for was gen on the REALITY of the role, the opinions that you won’t find in official correspondence.

Thank you you nonetheless for your contribution.


That makes more sense, apologies.

if you've been offered Officer, go Officer.

Arguably there's a greater variety of flying by going WSO but it's an Officers Air Force at the end of the day.

[heights good]

Here is a reply I PM'ed someone in a very similar position to yourself a couple of months ago.

"Sorry for taking so long to reply, thats the joy of Operational flying :-) My replies in bold below....

Thank you for messaging me. I have just been pinged out of the pilot sift due to hitting the age limit and have been offered WSOp, WSo and RPAS (P) for Jan. I just wanted to learn a bit more about WSOp and WSo

- In your opinion, is going WSo over WSOp for the commission worth it?

Yes and no - It depends on several factors.

-Your plans for civvie street - Officers tend be viewed as more favourable

-The importance of status - You want to tell people you are an officer

-Earning potential - Slightly more as an officer but not by much. I out-earned most pilots on my sqn at a similar length of service

-Pension is no longer a factor - Everyone gets the same terms and it's a career average pension i.e. The more promotions you get, the greater the pension

-Both jobs fly - I was a WSOp and now WSO and other than the extra pay it makes no difference to the job I am doing. The Sgts' Mess is definitely a better atmosphere!

- what is your day to day like?

Again, difficult to quantify as every aircraft type, sqn and deployment is different

- I work a 10-12 hour day every day

- Some days I am flying, some days I am not.

- I work shifts. That is 24/7/365 including Xmas day, weddings, funerals etc.

- Some Sqns have 'face-time'

- There are a ton of different 'isms' with each unit as well. For example, those stationed at Creech have a shorter day as they have to drive nearly 100 miles a day to work and back. Those on the current Tornado Sqn are doing 3 months deployed and 3 months at home, rinse, repeat. E3 Sqn personnel are drinking LOTS of tea and eating biscuits as they are really hurting with unserviceability of aircraft. Most rotary Sqns are on permanent 72 hours notice to move anywhere i.e. Humanitarian Relief

- You WILL end up with secondary duties such as Air Cadet Liaison, Mess secretary, Station Charities Committee etc. Without these you wont even be looked at for promotion.

- On Ops it is work, work, work! You may get days off on a 3 month deployment but don't count on it. Again it depends on your aircraft type. I did 3 months of constant nightshift with absolutely no time off.

- in terms of rank I’m only really familiar with the officer side of things, once you are operational what rank are you as a WSOp?

- Start as a Sergeant and then after about 8 yrs (at the absolute earliest) you may be eligible for promotion. WSOp promotion is probably the toughest in the entire RAF! Expect on average to wait around 12+ yrs for promotion, if at all. The board that recently published promoted 8 WSOps to Flt Sgt. That's across all specialisations and aircraft types. There have been yrs of 2 or even no people promoted.

- do you have a preference for what platform you are streamed to? (I wanted to be a rotary pilot and would prefer rotary WSOp).

You fill out a 'dream sheet' with what you prefer, it is exactly that though. It always comes down to Service need.

- That being said, Rotary Stream are always looking for newbies so it's a fairly safe bet you would go that way if you wanted it, especially if you are younger. Rotary is tougher on your body over the years so be prepared for that.

- if you’re a WSo and therefore istar, what are your missions like?

- If I have understood you correctly, then you are confused as WSOp make up the majority of ISTAR crews, its not a WSO only role.

-ISTAR is a varied and interesting job. I did Rotary and ISTAR; they are just different.

Rotary - Very cool job, very tactical, hard physical work, smaller crews, lots of time on Salisbury Plain or in the field, lots of time getting cold and wet, you are more likely to get shot at, take a greater toll on your body, can be very demanding flying if doing certain roles i.e. Special Forces flying. greater potential for short notice deployments around the world, lots of exercises, spending a lot of time with the Army

ISTAR - Cool job, more strategic/operational (in general), not a physical job, large crews, lots of time operating from airbases, air conditioned aircraft, very unlikely to be shot at, unlikely to damage your body (perhaps get fat), flying is not generally demanding in the same way as rotary, but can be more cerebral.

- do you get to travel much?

-Yes! But rarely to tourist destinations..... I have been to Iraq, Afghanistan, USA, Kenya, Germany, Norway, Kuwait, Qatar, France, Morocco, Cyprus, Belize, Guatemala, Netherlands, Belgium, Ireland, Czech Republic, Poland, Northern Ireland, Egypt and a few places not for public consumption.

-In short you will travel but it is not always fun when you arrive. The opportunity for the nice places is a lot less due to budget cuts and the Daily Mail. That being said there is still an opportunity, albeit it takes a lot more organising.

Don't join to get stamps in your passport as you will be disappointed.

- do you find it ‘exciting’?

- Like any job, there are good days and bad days.

- Exciting things - Everything in your first few yrs, being shot at, survival courses, adventure training, some exercises, night flying on rotary, formation flying, Combined Air Operations, 140mph at 50ft, shooting and numerous other military type things!

- Not Exciting - Getting up at 0300 to brief, constantly having your life in limbo on the whim of a politician, secondary duties, tick chasing (diversity briefs, don't post to Facebook briefs don't sleep with Russian spies brief etc.), boring courses, deploying to the same place for the 5th or 6th time, family being messed around with deployments, exercises, courses, having a w@nker boss who you can tell to stick his job up his hoop


I suppose the best way to answer you is, would I join up again knowing what I know?

The answer for me, is no.

But my reasons are due to -

- Family being messed around - my son is 5 and on his 5th nursery/school, I am on my 6th house in 8 yrs.

- Wanting to move into a 2nd career

- Spend time with my family

- Put down roots and have stability for my family

- Pension has changed too much (but this won't affect you)

- Meddling in my life in silly little ways by the RAF.

- Manning is at a critical level and I am fed up doing 2 or 3 jobs.

I hope that helps and gives you some insight into the pros/cons. If you have any further questions then let me know.

HG"

[Roger the cabin boy]

Charlie,

May I suggest that you have a good think about what role you wish to do? I don't disagree with any of the previous posts at all, but I imagine you to be in your early 20's? If so, you do have time to go and fly the role that your heart says is right (that might be as an ISTAR WSO, equally, it might be as a Voyager crewman (probably unlikely....:))) and then look at other opportunities later. There are plenty of avenues available for commissioning from the NCA cadre, be they in role (there are a good few wing commander and squadron leader crewmen knocking about, for example), by transfer to another aircrew role (again, a fair number of ex-NCA have ended up as pilots on helos, the AT fleet and indeed FJ) or alternatively, in a ground branch - again, there are lashings of ex-NCA in ATC, Int, Admin, Logs, etc.

That said, you might find that remaining NCA is right for you and that you might aspire to achieving your Warrant - probably more demanding that gaining a commission!

It IS an officer's Air Force; there ARE generally more opportunities (in and out of role, and by way of geography) for WSOs than WSOps, and money WILL become a factor at some point. But the options are there for the taking.

In short, every career path has its positive and negative points. The bottom line though, and this may be just my opinion, is that in the first instance you must do right by you and aim for the flying role that you truly want. It can't be pleasant finding yourself doing something you don't enjoy, in a location in the arse end of nowhere, when your mates from OASC are doing something they (and deep down, you) wanted to do. Judging by your handle, I would hazard a guess that the Chinook Force might be up there in terms of choice. And you'd be right.......

[heights good]

Choose WSO, WSO, and then WSO.

And that's coming from a 36 year served AEOp / WSOp (who was always happy with his lot, I hasten to add)

1. The money is very important. When flying pay kicks in the difference is huge.

2. The promotion prospects as a WSOp are poor - the competition is enormous. The prospects as a WSO (given that its a near dead branch about to have a new influx of people) are surely much better.

3 Look ahead 8 to 10 years: one will probably still be a Sergeant, the other possibly a Squadron Leader. (then see how the money pans out - at a rough guess £40k versus £70k)

4.The chance of better and more varied postings, especially overseas, is generally going to be for WSO.

The Military is run by Officers, for Officers. If you have the chance that is the way you should enter the Service. Everything from pay, promotion prospects, responsibility, varied career development etc. points that way. Enlisted personnel do not have the same life at all.

By the way living in either Mess is awful. On base accommodation upgrades have correctly prioritised the Junior ranks, so many Messes date from the 1930's to the 1960's and are horrid.

1. The flying pay has been meddled with quite a lot recently and it means you wont actually receive it until 7 yrs post OCU. That could be around your 10 yr point for both WSO and WSOp, so may not be enough of a carrot to keep you in.

2. Yes and no. WSOp is a tough promotion board but WSO is not easy by any stretch. Have a long think about whether promotion is something you actually want to entertain as you have to jump through a lot of hoops consistently for many yrs to be considered. I never played that game as it was just too much, for too little.

3. Those figures are WAY out! the difference in flying pay rate is about £4 per day on the lowest rates.

A WSO will take around 17/18 yrs to be put onto Tier 2 flying pay, a WSO would be on Middle gusting high rate by that point which means a difference of £20 /£15 per day in favour of WSO.

That would mean it would take a Sqn Ldr around 16/17 yrs to get to the £70k, WSOp would be earning around £48k if still a Sgt or £52k if FS (with 4 yrs seniority) at the same point.

AFPRB 2018 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728367/CCS207_CCS0318277118-1_AFPRB_2018_Book_Accessible.pdf)

4. Blessing and a curse - Staff tours might just kill your will to live or a random posting to Nairobi might not float your boat in any way. It depends on what you want from life and your career.

Agreed about Messes, they are all pretty dire and in need of much improvement and upgrading. My last 2 messes were plagued by heating breakdowns and constantly cold or running out of hot water. My last mess had to be closed for 2 weeks due to sewerage leaking from the main pipe. It was HORRENDOUS!

Overall I would say WSO is the way ahead but it wont be for everyone. I do miss the Sgts' Mess functions.....

[minigundiplomat]

I am a few years the right side of the exit sign, so things may have changed, but can you be directly commissioned into an AEO or Crewman position these days? When I left, the direct WSO route was only for Nav's....

Just a general observation, but either role is what you make it, and you will get out what you put in. I didn't find WSOp promotion slow at all, in fact on the CH47 fleet, it was not unusual to be promoted as you rolled over the 5 year line - however, with one fleet in pieces after SDSR 2010 and one balls out in Afg, I can appreciate your perspective. If career, pensions and money motivate you - go WSO. If fun, job satisfaction and a relatively carefree existence appeal - WSOp is the way ahead.

I don't regret a day as Airman Aircrew (not a bleeding WSOp...) and wouldn't have swapped for a commission (other than Pilot). However, I was on the fleet I really wanted at a very interesting time.

Best of luck!

[Charliehotel47]

Thank you everybody for your replies and time. You have all been extremely insightful and raised some interesting points.

How does commissioning from an NCA work? Are you recommended or do you just request to go to OASC? Is there a certain number of years you must wait? Is it the full 24 week course or a condensed version? And finally, are you then a ‘commissioned WSOp’ or a WSO?

As my handle may imply, I am torn between wanting to be on the rotary fleet (preferably Chinook), with the flying this entails and being an officer. If I could theoretically commission a few years down the line within this same role, that would be of great appeal.


And purely out of interest - Would you do it all over again, knowing what you do now?


Thank you

CH

[Pontius Navigator]

CH, you may apply at any time. You may have a boss who pushed you. If, as an NCO you decide you want a commission then discuss this with your flt and sqn cdrs. They will advise and mentor, see that you get duties that will help your development and allow you to demonstrate suitability. Then you will probably face a station board. Recommendations will all help but ultimately it is up to you when you get to OASC.

There you will be in competition with direct entry candidates. The board then has the job of comparing the unknown with someone who is a known quantity. That can be a positive benefit or a disadvantage. Direct entry is much the quicker route with commissioning from NCA a n alternative that has allowed you to prove ability.

[camelspyyder]

NCA gaining commissions from WSOp to WSO is, just like promotion, very competitive. You don't just decide,"I'd like to be an Officer now". You need a few years of "above average"" or "excellent" appraisals and the support of your command chain.
If you are offered a commission now, I would advise you take it, rather than some years down the line attending OASC year in, year out, in the hope of being picked up. I knew some excellent and highly promotable SNCO's who tried for years but just couldn't get their foot in the door of the Officers Mess.
You have the opportunity to do that from the start - I know what I would do.

[MPN11]

CH ... the previous posts highlight the challenge to be faced. As a new entrant WSO, you have a clean sheet, broadly speaking. As a WSOp seeking commissioning, the Board will have reams of data on you which may, or not, be to your advantage.

There is NO advantage to be gained from starting on a low branch of the tree when you can instantly jump several branches higher and start as a WSO. You would just be wasting time, seniority and money. If you're deemed suitable for a commission as a WSO ... just bloody GO FOR IT!

[Donna K Babbs]

In principle, I would suggest that WSO was the best option, based on career prospects and future salary. However, the flying roles available to WSOs are far less diverse than those open to WSOps.

If you are looking for a long-term career with good promotion prospects, there is a very strong argument for choosing WSO. Alternatively, if you want to be a helicopter crewman, with a potential option to commission in the future, I would recommend WSOp.

[Lima Juliet]

Warning! Warning! There is some complete hoop in amongst some good info in thisthread. For example:

The flying pay has been meddled with quite a lot recently and it means you wont actually receive it until 7 yrs post OCU. That could be around your 10 yr point for both WSO and WSOp, so may not be enough of a carrot to keep you in.

Flying pay has been called ‘Recruiting and Retention Pay (Flying)’ or RRP(F) for several years now. Since April 2017 then Officer Aircrew will get RRP(F) six years after starting Phase 2 Flying Training. At OCU plus 7 years then direct entry WSOs and all pilots will get a £70,000 Retention Payment (RP) that comes with 6 year return of service. Tier 1 RRP(F) is £4.2k per year until you get to Tier 2 (after 6 years from OCU) which starts at ~£13.5k per year and grows over 7 years to ~£20k per year. As for top whack as a Flt Lt then you have ~£48k after about 10 years and then the max RRP(F) would be about 17 years in and would total about £68k in today’s money. Hopefully you have promoted by then to Sqn Ldr whose top whack basic is £61.5k and the same top whack RRP(F) would make the earnings over £80k per year. If they go Professional Aviator Spine (PAS) at around the 18-20 year point then earnings can rise up to £78k for a Flt Lt.

As for Aircrew SNCOs (non-commissioned Aircrew or NCA for short), they are better off in the short term. A Sgt earns about £4k more than an Aircrew Fg Off for the first 2.5 years. Also, by then, the Sgt will likely have finished their OCU and will get their rate of RRP(F) of about £3k at about the same time the Fg Off promotes to Flt Lt but likely without RRP(F) - so the Sgt is still better off at this point. It is only really after about 10 years of service that a Sgt will be completely overhauled by the Flt Lt in total - however, by then the Sgt should be a FS and middle-rate RRP(F) and so the amounts are still about the same.

Also SNCOs get free uniform and cheaper accommodation. So really the Officer Aircrew only really starts to be better off after about 13 years when the £70k RP kicks in and promotion or PAS beckons.

So please be circumspect with what you read - good stuff and bad stuff being posted. The only real way to get this properly is to speak to the AFCO or OASC. All the figures are contained in the AFPRB link.

Good luck with your application and selection...

[minigundiplomat]

There is NO advantage to be gained from starting on a low branch of the tree when you can instantly jump several branches higher and start as a WSO. You would just be wasting time, seniority and money. If you're deemed suitable for a commission as a WSO ... just bloody GO FOR IT!

I wouldn't have said it was a lower branch, I'd have said it was a different tree. If he/she wants to be a chinook crewman, a WSO (effectively Nav) commission is not the path he/she needs. Otherwise, agree with the sentiment.

[MPN11]

Indeed minigundimplomat ... different trees, albeit one grows taller!

I'm clearly a bit status-obsessed! :)

[Jumping_Jack]

'I'm clearly a bit status-obsessed'

T'was ever thus! :p

[Tankertrashnav]

Do you really want to live with a bunch of hairy-arsed old NCOs in the sergeants' mess where you swill down pints of brown ale before going in to eat egg and chips or would you rather be in the officer's mess sipping a pre-dinner sherry in refined company before enjoying haute cuisine?

;)

[MPN11]

hahahahahaha ... thanks, TTN, I needed a giggle!

Perhaps the distinction should be “mingling with tradesmen, or with a possible future CAS”. ;)

[ExAscoteer]

before enjoying haute cuisine?

Doesn't exist in these days of Pay-As-You-Starve.

[Pontius Navigator]

Doesn't exist in these days of Pay-As-You-Starve.
Shame they never adopted the US model. Last I saw, Dish of the Day $1.95, other dishes $4.95. Pick your day and you paid $1.95 for a steak; same steak next day $4.95.

And many don't know PAYD has been around in one form or another for over 44 years.

Worst dining in was at the school of catering and the contract staff hadn't got a clue and dinner started an hour late.
​​

[MPN11]

Deviating somewhat, I have mixed memories of Officers Mess dining. One Mess made it's own fresh bread and rolls. Another started the week with Spring Vegetable soup, which over the week transmogrified into a tick "whatever the left-overs were" ... by Friday you could still clearly taste Wednesday's main course!

[Charliehotel47]

Haha this has deviated somewhat. In reality, is there actually much difference in experience between sgts mess & officers mess in terms of lifestyle?

Would one expect only the finest chateauneuf du pape accompaniment in Waddington’s officers mess?

[camelspyyder]

That wont be a problem lad, since many of the countries you'll deploy to for months on end are dry.
Not to mention the current penchant for living on base instead of in a hotel :(

[MPN11]

With Catering largely civilianised, I suspect it’s largely the same these days. Sgts Mess used to be better, as SNCOs ran Supply and Catering departments!!

I could wax lyrical about the old days, but it would be pointless!! I last lived in a normal Officers Mess in the 1980s :)

[minigundiplomat]

MPN11 - not at all: I’d assumed you’d replied quickly and I hadn’t assigned any judgement to your statement. I was just pointing out I’d have phrased it differently.

TTN - you’re out of touch my friend. It’s definately lager that gets swilled before egg and chips, and you omitted any mention of the alphabetti spaghetti.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks minigundiplomat - noted!

Actually the only RAF station I have visited in recent years was St Mawgan where I gave a talk to the local aviation history group. Before the talk they gave me dinner in the mess, which turned out to be a combined officers'/sergeants' mess. The food wasn't bad but the place had all the atmosphere of a Travelodge on a quiet night!

[Pontius Navigator]

One aspect rarely discussed is failure.

Historically failure rates in initial for WSO were around 5-10% (1 per course). I don't know the date for WSOp, and there would be a small loss from OCUs. A fair number of these might be medical.

A WSO failing is still an officer. A WSOp failing is still an AC and if remustered still an AC. The risk for a WSOp going for a commission is low but failure was not unheard of.

Short answer, once you have a commission you are better off.

[camelspyyder]

In the 80's the WSOp recourse rate was up to 60% depending on specialisation and the overall failure rate probably about 30%.
In more recent times (21C) I would say that a more gentle regime has reduced the overall failure rate to around 10%, but my colleagues and I steadfastly refused to inflict the least capable of the students onto the front line, regardless of fluffy policies or downward pressure to put bums on seats. However, some of those failed NCO aviators then went on to very successful commissioned service in ground appointments.

If OASC judged you capable of being both officer and aviator, take both.

[MPN11]

Those last 2 posts resonate, as I used to sit on Reselection Boards for officers who had failed professional training. We were reminded that they had been commissioned as officers, so there was essentially ‘no going back’. The individuals were officers, and a place had to be found for them. Unsurprisingly, many former aircrew migrated to ATC on the basis of their experience and general attributes. ;)

A WSOp has, to my understanding, no such safety net.

Not wanting to introduce the possibility of failure, or whatever that’s called these days, but reality is a cruel master.

[Tankertrashnav]

The system does not always work as it should, MPN 11. When I was at nav school a student was chopped from his course after it was discovered he had been fiddling his astro (basically getting a simple Gee fix and then back calculating figures as though he had obtained the fix by astro). This was rightly deemed to be a matter of integrity, not competence. However rather than being chucked out on his ear the chap was offered a transfer to the RAF Regiment, which he took.

I was still wearing RAF Regiment flashes at the time, and when I put forward my opinion that if someone lacked the integrity to be a navigator, why would he be deemed to be ok to be a Regiment officer, where he may be responsible for men's lives. The staff member I put this to basically told me to wind my neck in and mind my own business. I have no idea how said astro fiddler made out as a Regiment officer, but it rankled at the time.

[MPN11]

TTN ... short of cashiering said 'officer', it's hard to say what the system would otherwise do. There are, of course, always 'out-lying cases'.

However, whilst the stories are always interesting, I guess we should focus on the reality that faces 'whatshisname'* in the career conundrum he faces! :)

* Apologies, Charliehotel47 :)

[Charliehotel47]

TTN ... short of cashiering said 'officer', it's hard to say what the system would otherwise do. There are, of course, always 'out-lying cases'.

However, whilst the stories are always interesting, I guess we should focus on the reality that faces 'whatshisname'* in the career conundrum he faces! :)

* Apologies, Charliehotel47 :)

No offence taken! Enjoying the anecdotes... takes the pressure off this decision I have on my hands.

[charliegolf]

I've scanned the thread, so this may have been covered, but do you have a feel for how long you might want to serve? Are you a potential lifer (I was when I signed on the dotted line- I served out my initial engagement and left!), or do you see the RAF as an early career before settling down outside? The latter might make NCA more attractive- better pay early on, fewer BS jobs, almost certainly no ground jobs etc. Just a thought.

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

"No ground jobs" needs a bit of amplification. There were plenty of jobs for NCA that were not even on airfields. For obvious reasons some have disappeared but will undoubtedly returned with the return of the Nav/AEO/AEOp specialisations. WSOp were employed in Acoustic Analysis and intelligence roles. Whether these jobs will be manned by int branch specialists or by WSOp I don't know. Then there are instructor roles many of which are best delivered by aircrew with recent operational experience.
​​

[Charliehotel47]

I've scanned the thread, so this may have been covered, but do you have a feel for how long you might want to serve? Are you a potential lifer (I was when I signed on the dotted line- I served out my initial engagement and left!), or do you see the RAF as an early career before settling down outside? The latter might make NCA more attractive- better pay early on, fewer BS jobs, almost certainly no ground jobs etc. Just a thought.

CG

Hi CharlieGolf

I would say a lifer. I am a bit older at 25 and I am leaving a well paid career, albeit one I find wholly unfulfilling, to join the RAF. I have been fortunate enough to be able to buy a house and as such, my current career has now served it’s purpose. Having ‘been there and done it’, I know a desk job isn’t for me.

Cheers for the insight,
CH47

[camelspyyder]

I think both WSOp and WSO are under-manned at present and likely to continue that way. The amount of non-flying or flying related posts will surely reflect that. Those that are fit, able and willing to fly should be able to avoid support jobs as long as they like. I flew operationally until walking out the door at 55 (and could have stayed on to 60).

[charliegolf]

I think both WSOp and WSO are under-manned at present and likely to continue that way. The amount of non-flying or flying related posts will surely reflect that. Those that are fit, able and willing to fly should be able to avoid support jobs as long as they like. I flew operationally until walking out the door at 55 (and could have stayed on to 60).

This ^^^^ and amended to point out that I joined a a Loadie, so was never going to instruct on 1ANS, Siggie School or Eng School; and no-one was going to break the Masters' Mafia grip on the Loadie School at Brize! I actually did a short final tour at 6FTS, but that was purely because I only had about 16 months to go. The poster told me I needn't have gone, so I coulda gone back to the 'other' Puma outfit. I enjoyed Finningley, but regret not leaving from a squadron. Mind you, the way that place was back then, I reckon I'd have been on detachment right up to resettlement!

CG

[Sun Who]

25 years as WSOP (AEOp) on both ISTAR (Sentry) and rotary (SAR Seaking). Don't regret a day of it.
CamelSpyder's advice at #2 is spot on BUT it depends what type of chap you are, and what you value.
Google 'John Boyd, to be or to do'.

Good luck.
Enjoy.

Sun.

[cynicalint]

Charliehotel47, Another thing to consider is that both IOTC and AAITC are both demanding courses, basically similar. but each differ in their own ways. Why would you willingly think about doing both, when from the outset you can do only one. If your future aspirations are to be commissioned, do it from the start, rather than taking the very much more difficult route of commissioning from Airman Aircrew. You have already jumped through the hoops, don't make life a lot more difficult by having to jump through much smaller and more difficult hoops later on.

[heights good]

I can say without a shadow of doubt IOT was not demanding, more draining, in a 'sap the very soul from you body' kind of way. 2 weeks crammed into 9 months, the worst 9 months of my life!

Now that I think about it, commission from the start as IOT after being a SNCO for over a decade is nauseating and soul destroying in equal measure and a complete waste of everybody’s time and effort.

[MPN11]

Nine Months IOT?? Well, whichever, both IOT and AAITC involve a fair bit of physical effort in addition to the mental aspects. IMO, best to get the physical stuff out of the way when younger, but then I've always been lazy sod!

[teeteringhead]

I was still wearing RAF Regiment flashes at the time, And of course these days TTN, you could continue to wear them!

This is subject to curious conditions, envisaging a three-tier Regt. A gunner who remusters to another trade as an airman, may still wear "mudguards" but not as a SNCO.

Similarly, a Regt SNCO who remusters as - for example - Airman Aircrew (sorry NCA) may wear them as a SNCO, but not if commissioned.

Those like yourself, JROC qualified, may wear the insignia as an officer.

I'm sure there were OBEs to be won devilling out those rules......

[MPN11]

But Flying Badges are forever! ;)

I still regret we didn’t have Branch badges like the USAF, so that we non-Aircrew could see who/what people are. I indulged in the purchase, for souvenir purposes only, of a Master Air Traffic Controller badge in a PX once!

[Pontius Navigator]

But Flying Badges are forever! ;)
No they weren't, don't know about today, but you had to do 6 months post-OCU. If you failed to reach operational then you were at risk of grounding.

I once served on a committee where not only an initio training was discussed but also re-read re-roling or converting to different type. It was quite an eye opener.

[MPN11]

Copied, PN. I did of course mean in the basic sense, even if subsequently grounded and sent to ATC ... as a few mates of my acquaintance, including a former LM :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Copied, PN. I did of course mean in the basic sense, even if subsequently grounded and sent to ATC ... as a few mates of my acquaintance, including a former LM :)
Ah, see what you mean now. Also 'grounded sent to ATC' of course applied to qualified aircrew. Generally if someone fail as pilot they wouldn't be restreamed ATC or ABM which are essentially aptitude based jobs.
​​​​​​

[MPN11]

I would say Pilot aptitude (3/4-D awareness, high workload capacity) reads across quite well on the aptitude front. After all, I passed both Pilot and ATC Aptitude testing in my early days (OASC x 4, on various attempts to get though the door!!).

And a late good mate, albeit ‘wingless’, was ‘failed aircrew’ which might have explained his bolshie-ness ... or just being Welsh ;) He still made wg cdr, though!
Fellow RAF ATCOs will know who I mean ... and I was one of a few who could call him Blodwyn without being prostrated on the floor! :)

[Pontius Navigator]

BGG, it is odd that some trades have trade badges and others don't. That aircrew, do and ground trades don't. That pathfinder crews did but others didn't.

There are many 'ticks' that could have qualified people for emblems. R, VR, A are common on No 1s. Sky pilots have wings. When only selected aircrew officers went to Cranwell they could have worn a discrete C with their mechanic counterparts from Henlow Tech wearing a T. QFI and QWI could have had F or W with Spec Ns having S.

On second thoughts C, N, T, S, F and W might not have been such a good idea.

[St Johns Wort]

Pontius Navigator it is odd that some trades have trade badges and others don't. That aircrew, do and ground trades don't.

Except for Police, Regiment, PTIs Radio Techs, Medics, Dental trades and Bomb Disposal obviously.

[Tankertrashnav]

I never knew that about retaining Regiment flashes teeteringhead (we never called them mudguards in those days, btw). When I was in the Regiment I remember several officers who still wore pilots' wings, but I didnt realise the reverse could apply now. Quite a few ex-rocks flying at that time, including a Victor nav who retired as station commander at Marham.

[charliegolf]

Pontius Navigator it is odd that some trades have trade badges and others don't. That aircrew, do and ground trades don't.

Except for Police, Regiment, PTIs Radio Techs, Medics, Dental trades and Bomb Disposal obviously.

Markspersons- don't forget markspersons!:E

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius Navigator:it is odd that some trades have trade badges and others don't. That all aircrew, do and most ground trades don't.
SJW. Better?

[MPN11]

Some Other Ranks have Trade Badges.
Most Officers don’t, apart from Aircrew and the Medical/Religious.

Thus, in the Officers Mess, there’s no visual way of discerning who is Admin, Eng, ATC, FC, Supply, PEdO, Catering and a few others I may have missed. I always liked the old RN system of coloured bands between the gold rings ... Wasn’t it Green for Electrical Engineers, etc, and nothing for the Executive Branch (aka Ship-Drivers!).

[downsizer]

Thus, in the Officers Mess, there’s no visual way of discerning who is Admin, Eng, ATC, FC, Supply, PEdO, Catering and a few others I may have missed.

How did you cope? All joking aside, I can't see the issue.

[St Johns Wort]

Pontius Navigator....................:ok:

and lets not forget 'The Marksmen'

SJW

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, on a cruise ship, arguably very much full of electrics it is Green for Environmental Officer. Interesting how many of these on P&O wear Dolphins.

[charliegolf]

Pontius Navigator....................:ok:

and lets not forget 'The Marksmen'

SJW

Oi! Pay attention Worty!

CG

[SASless]

When I was in the Regiment I remember several officers who still wore pilots' wings, but I didnt realise the reverse could apply now.

Wasn't there something said in the past about teaching a Monkey to fly......?

[Pontius Navigator]

With the demise of No 2 jackets trades badges are virtually redundant.

Are Marksman badges still awarded? What is the criterion now, do you still have to fire live rounds?

Interesting the difference between Army and Air Force with the former having 3 grades yet the Air Force only the top one. Do the Army still wear such badges on working dress?

[Tankertrashnav]

SASless - well they managed to teach me to be a nav! And how to fly a Cessna much later on, although at age 60 it took me rather more hours than would have been allowed at an RAF flying school :(

[Union Jack]

Some Other Ranks have Trade Badges.
Most Officers don’t, apart from Aircrew and the Medical/Religious.

Thus, in the Officers Mess, there’s no visual way of discerning who is Admin, Eng, ATC, FC, Supply, PEdO, Catering and a few others I may have missed. I always liked the old RN system of coloured bands between the gold rings ... Wasn’t it Green for Electrical Engineers, etc, and nothing for the Executive Branch (aka Ship-Drivers!).
How interesting - One of the major reasons announced in Admiralty Fleet Order 1/56 for doing away with coloured cloth distinction between the rank stripes of Royal Navy officers, except for those considered non combatants under the Geneva Convention (namely Medical and Dental Officers and civilian officers required to wear uniform) was very specifically to encourage the concept of officers of all other specialisations being "All of One Company".

Jack

[Pontius Navigator]

Jack, P&O stick with purple for engineering, salmon for medical. I seem to remember Marconi men had a different rank emblem.
​​​​​

[Union Jack]

Jack, P&O stick with purple for engineering, salmon for medical. I seem to remember Marconi men had a different rank emblem.
​​​​​

Absolutely spot on, PN, in both your examples, for the simple reason that there are so many different variations between companies that they are indeed anything but "All of One Company". The one which really amuses me is he increasing tendency for cruise ship master to wear their four stripes with the lowest one somewhat wider than the three above, thereby making them "borderline" full Admirals!

Now back at OASC.....

Jack

[WingsofRoffa]

Are any contributors here serving Rotary crewman or Pilots at Odiham/Benson?

[downsizer]

Are any contributors here serving Rotary crewman or Pilots at Odiham/Benson?

Unlikely fella, this is a history forum! ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Yeah, the serving ones either don't have internet or are too busy

[MPN11]

Yeah, the serving ones either don't have internet or are too busy
The Retired ones remember when a WSO was called an Air Gunner or a Bomb Aimer. ;)

[heights good]

Unlikely fella, this is a history forum! ;)

What would you like to know?

[WingsofRoffa]

What would you like to know?

What the recruitment outlook is for rotary crewman over the next couple of years? Is there demand for new blood?

[The...Bird]

What the recruitment outlook is for rotary crewman over the next couple of years? Is there demand for new blood?

Very low demand(For all 3 types for that matter) The number of pilots being selected for each IOT has been reduced to 5.

[WingsofRoffa]

Very low demand(For all 3 types for that matter) The number of pilots being selected for each IOT has been reduced to 5.

One suspects that the reduction in pilot spaces is a consequence of the utter garbage that is MFTS. What does that have to do with crewman?

[camelspyyder]

One suspects that the reduction in pilot spaces is a consequence of the utter garbage that is MFTS. What does that have to do with crewman?

Looking at the near future, I'd say ISTAR is the growth field, making it likely that the majority of WSOp trainees will stream that way rather than rotary. Both will get trained by MFTS - it's not just for Pilots.

[Lomon]

By the way living in either Mess is awful. On base accommodation upgrades have correctly prioritised the Junior ranks, so many Messes date from the 1930's to the 1960's and are horrid.
Except at Lossiemouth, who will be getting a huge influx in WSO, WSOp and JRs.
The OM and WO & Sgt's Mess are both modern buildings with large, airy function rooms, bar, en-suite rooms, and even studio flats for the officers.
Meanwhile the JRs are still in buildings from the late 60s with shared ablutions, no modern amenities, no real cooking facilities (they are allowed a microwave and George Foreman in the kitchens) and the 'NAAFI' bar had the bowling alley turned into a function room that gets more use as a station briefing facility for VIPs and meetings than as the JRs space it was intended to be. (Although they have moved a bar in there for the juniors as their actual bar flooded and there is no fix in sight)

[camelspyyder]

Except at Lossiemouth, who will be getting a huge influx in WSO, WSOp and JRs.
The OM and WO & Sgt's Mess are both modern buildings with large, airy function rooms, bar, en-suite rooms, and even studio flats for the officers.
Meanwhile the JRs are still in buildings from the late 60s with shared ablutions, no modern amenities, no real cooking facilities (they are allowed a microwave and George Foreman in the kitchens) and the 'NAAFI' bar had the bowling alley turned into a function room that gets more use as a station briefing facility for VIPs and meetings than as the JRs space it was intended to be. (Although they have moved a bar in there for the juniors as their actual bar flooded and there is no fix in sight)

To be fair, Lossie had to change. The slum we inherited off the RN was awful. I seem to remember 8 (or 16?) man rooms in the Jr's block adjoining the NAAFI in the 80's, and the Sgt's mess cabins were about only about 6 feet by 4. The first improvement there was to knock each pair of rooms in to a single but it was only an interim solution.

Regardless of the buildings being new or old, it was the actual living (or just existing) in the Mess that I detested, and for many of the people who get posted in there, the fact that it's in the SNP Republic of Moray will just make it worse.

[The Old Fat One]

.... the fact that it's in the SNP Republic of Moray will just make it worse.

What?

https://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/douglas-ross/4627

[camelspyyder]

His election was a blip. That has got to be one of the oldest and longest held SNP seats in the country.

[Timelord]

It depends how far back you want to go. The area was solid Conservative until Winnie Ewing won it for the SNP in the early 80s. Anyway, at least the current incumbent helped sort out the income tax differential -which, by the way, just got worse!

[Pontius Navigator]

It depends how far back you want to go. The area was solid Conservative until Winnie Ewing won it for the SNP in the early 80s. Anyway, at least the current incumbent helped sort out the income tax differential -which, by the way, just got worse!
Member of Parliament (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_Parliament) (Hamilton (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)) 1967–70; Moray and Nairn (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moray_and_Nairn_(UK_Parliament_constituency)) 74–79), Member of the European Parliament (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_the_European_Parliament) (Highlands and Islands 1975–1999) and Member of the Scottish Parliament (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_the_Scottish_Parliament) (Highlands and Islands 1999–2003)

As the resident MP she+1 was invited to the annual reception at Kinloss. She brought a retinue along. There was also a letter offering transfer terms for RAF personnel to the SRAF.

[The Old Fat One]

I know these matters exercise our minds greatly (perhaps way more than they should) but I've lived and worked on various RAF bases under conservatives, liberals, labour, SNP and even the Welsh lot, and I can't say I ever noticed a blind bit of difference.

There are lots of reasons to love (or hate) Kinloss/Lossiemouth; the incumbent MP is probably not very high on most folks list, either way.

Sorry for the thread drift; I'll get my coat.

[Pontius Navigator]

TOFO,

I think Winnie Ewing was different; people knew who she was. How many other knew the name of their MP?