Injury during aborted landing

[k2neno]

On 26. Dec 2017 wizzair flight W6 4045 during aborted landing i have sufferd serious spinal injury. Wizzair didn't answer on any email or post sent from my or my lawyer side. I am asking for an opinion from members here. Any experiences in this kind of situations? Where can i get more informations about that flight? I got some flight data from flightaware.
Thanks!

[Bull at a Gate]

Ok, I’ll bite. How did you get a spinal injury from an aborted landing?

[rog747]

Ok, I’ll bite. How did you get a spinal injury from an aborted landing?

Hard bounce then a GA???

[Tray Surfer]

Just some thoughts...

Did you ask for medical attention immediately after the successful landing?

If not, then you may end up with a very long uphill battle to prove that any injury was sustained as part of the aborted landing, and they will likely argue that it was not reported at the time and your injury could have happened after your involvement with the airline ended.

Who did you report the injury to onboard or at the airport?

You should have a copy of the medical incident form or report that was given, or some sort of incident report reference from the initial point of report, which will be vital in tracing the details of the reported injury to the airline.

I hope you get the information and result you wish from this.

[DaveReidUK]

According to FR24, the aircraft did indeed go around at Beauvais. It's not really possible to tell from the data whether or not there was contact with the runway on the GA or, if there was, how hard.

The aircraft involved departed on the return flight an hour later, so it doesn't sound like any hard landing inspection was required.

[cooperplace]

if no hard landing inspection was needed, you can see why the airline would be sceptical of the spinal injury claim.

[k2neno]

Thanks for questions and comments.
i will try to explain more detailed that event. In a first landing attempt airplaine hit a runnaway just with a right main gear. I had a seat in a 12 row (a 320, 12c seat, 12 row, seat near corridor), appx 3 m from right main gear. I didn't seat 100% straight, body was leaning toward right side as a armrest is to low for me (i am 186 cm tall). Plane start to drift with a nose to the right side than after a seconds pilot pull the plane back in the air. in a moment of impact i felt a sharp pain in lower back and left glutes. Guy in a 13 row (on my back) was alone in a row , sleeping , laying on all 3 seats without safety belt. In a moment of impact he flew in the air up to headrests. Plane landed after second attempt. I didn't ask immediatley for medical help as a stress from a event covered level of pain. Next days pain start to be worse and i was send by my doctor to a MRI. Result L1 to S1, 5 discs injured, over 10 month on recovery and doctor say i will need another half year to fully recover.

[Alsacienne]

Rather late to be posting this after the initial incident .... what sort of time limit is allowed?

[k2neno]

[QUOTE=Alsacienne;10320051]Rather late to be posting this after the initial incident .... what sort of time limit is allowed?[/QUOT
24 months. Lawyer thought that we will come on a agreement with a carrier. He tried to contact Wizz several times through mails and post with no results. I was busy with recovery and I realise now that they don't have any intention to discuss that situation.

[Hotel Tango]

I realise now that they don't have any intention to discuss that situation.

Well, they will have to if your lawyers take the case to court. However, be sure that you have all the evidence to support your case. I'm no lawyer but you're going to find it a hard slog trying to prove the landing was heavy enough to injure 5 discs. Furthermore, you have already admitted that you were not sitting in your seat correctly. That may be used against you.

[Rwy in Sight]

HT;

I think there is no prescribed way to seat for a landing (although I have not step foot on a plane for over a year). However I find had to believe that the person sitting behind k2neno did not wear a seat belt.

[Hotel Tango]

RiS, agreed but my point was that his own statement could give them some amunition.

ut of curiosity, it may be interesting to know if pax on this forum adopt certain positions in their seat for take-off and landing? I ask because in fact I do sit snug into the seat and as straight as possible, with both feet (uncrossed) on the floor.

[Dan Dare]

I always sit looking forward with belt very tight for both take off and landing for just this reason. I expect I’m unusual in this though. I even place my feet such that I won’t be injured if we stop quickly. I also wonder how the brace position would work out for someone as tall as me.

Parts of the K2neo story do sound a bit tall though.

[dastocks]

I always sit looking forward with belt very tight for both take off and landing for just this reason. I expect I’m unusual in this though. I even place my feet such that I won’t be injured if we stop quickly. I also wonder how the brace position would work out for someone as tall as me.

Parts of the K2neo story do sound a bit tall though.
... and it will be necessary to show that the incident occurred as a result of negligence on the part of the handling crew rather than, for example, an unexpected gust or turbulence. On the evidence presented so far there was a) no damage to the aircraft and b) no injuries sustained by other passengers.

There are people around who will spend the rest of their lives in a wheelchair simply because they weren't wearing a seatbelt when the aircraft they were travelling on encountered severe turbulence whilst in the cruise. Even in such cases I think it's unlikely an airline would accept liability. This would be especially so if the airline can show that an injured passenger has chosen to ignore safety advice from the crew.

[stevef]

Quote: Guy in a 13 row (on my back) was alone in a row , sleeping , laying on all 3 seats without safety belt. In a moment of impact he flew in the air up to headrests..
Eh? Very lax cabin crew to let someone sleep across three seats on landing, never mind without being strapped in...

[RevMan2]

I'm with @Hotel Tango and @Dan Dare here. That's the position cabin crew take for departure and landing. Good enough for me....

[cooperplace]

Thanks for questions and comments.
i will try to explain more detailed that event. In a first landing attempt airplaine hit a runnaway just with a right main gear. I had a seat in a 12 row (a 320, 12c seat, 12 row, seat near corridor), appx 3 m from right main gear. I didn't seat 100% straight, body was leaning toward right side as a armrest is to low for me (i am 186 cm tall). Plane start to drift with a nose to the right side than after a seconds pilot pull the plane back in the air. in a moment of impact i felt a sharp pain in lower back and left glutes. Guy in a 13 row (on my back) was alone in a row , sleeping , laying on all 3 seats without safety belt. In a moment of impact he flew in the air up to headrests. Plane landed after second attempt. I didn't ask immediatley for medical help as a stress from a event covered level of pain. Next days pain start to be worse and i was send by my doctor to a MRI. Result L1 to S1, 5 discs injured, over 10 month on recovery and doctor say i will need another half year to fully recover.

if the plane didn't do a hard enough landing to need an inspection, it's v hard to see how your story can stand up.

[PDR1]

out of curiosity, it may be interesting to know if pax on this forum adopt certain positions in their seat for take-off and landing?

I do, but it's partly because I have an old back injury - a broken vertebra which is prone to something called "spondilitus" (in layman's terms "lots of pain"), so I treat it with care.

That's part of it, but the main reason is that I frequently (twice a week, ~43 weeks a year) fly in an Embraer 145 whose oleos are seemingly filled with case-hardened granite and whose most gentle touchdowns can be observed on seismometers over a hundred miles away. So as we cros the airfield boundary I always put my feet flat on the floor and sit with my spine vertical & pressed into the seat.

But that's just because I'm prone to the problem - I wouldn't think anyone uninjured would need to do it.

PDR

[Hotel Tango]

but the main reason is that I frequently (twice a week, ~43 weeks a year) fly in an Embraer 145 whose oleos are seemingly filled with case-hardened granite and whose most gentle touchdowns can be observed on seismometers over a hundred miles away

:) LOL Yes, I noticed that about the EMB-145 too. The Dash-8 is not that far behind!

[k2neno]

HT;

I think there is no prescribed way to seat for a landing (although I have not step foot on a plane for over a year). However I find had to believe that the person sitting behind k2neno did not wear a seat belt.
The guy slept on all 3 seats until a hit. then he flew up to the headrests. When he fall back he wake up and trough window and saw the plane climbing. He lost orientation and ask where are we. For me was also very strange that the crew didn't saw that he is not in a position for landing.

[k2neno]

Well, they will have to if your lawyers take the case to court. However, be sure that you have all the evidence to support your case. I'm no lawyer but you're going to find it a hard slog trying to prove the landing was heavy enough to injure 5 discs. Furthermore, you have already admitted that you were not sitting in your seat correctly. That may be used against you.
EU laws and MC 99 give a 24 months time frame for a legal action against the carrier. We found two witnesses which where on that flight. I am trying to find more passengers who were on that plane. I have collected all medical documentation. In January we want to present case to the court in France.

[k2neno]

I always sit looking forward with belt very tight for both take off and landing for just this reason. I expect I’m unusual in this though. I even place my feet such that I won’t be injured if we stop quickly. I also wonder how the brace position would work out for someone as tall as me.

Parts of the K2neo story do sound a bit tall though.
I was in seat with a belt on as usually when i take a flight. My upper part of body was slight to the right because right hand was on the armrest and it's to low for my height. As a plane hit a ground just with a right wheel that caused imbalance in a spine and a uneven pressure on discs as a results causing the injury. All discs are injured on the right back side in a same direction as a airplane wheel (if you compare a position of a body in seat 12 c and a right A320 wheel with a MRI of a injury they are in the same line)

[meleagertoo]

I don't think anyone will fall for a claim of back injury in a landing that did not damage the a/c or require a heavy check. The g loadings for these are remarkably low, way way below what could be seen as culpable, let alone what is usually believed to injure people. My company had a heavy landing in a 320 that was witin .1 or .2 g of requiring a main landing gear change. No one was injured. The a/c was grounded for some considerable time while Airbus was consulted. istr they hadn't had one that hard before and weren't entirely sure what to do about it.
I think you're on very thin ice here.

[k2neno]

I don't think anyone will fall for a claim of back injury in a landing that did not damage the a/c or require a heavy check. The g loadings for these are remarkably low, way way below what could be seen as culpable, let alone what is usually believed to injure people. My company had a heavy landing in a 320 that was witin .1 or .2 g of requiring a main landing gear change. No one was injured. The a/c was grounded for some considerable time while Airbus was consulted. istr they hadn't had one that hard before and weren't entirely sure what to do about it.<br />I think you're on very thin ice here.
How you explain that the angle of a damage on the discs-all 5(herniation) is on a same angle with a wheel (angle between 12c and right main gear) that hit a ground?

[meleagertoo]

I can't and neither, I suspect, can you. How deep was the wingtip underground at this angle between seat 12c and the wheel?
What says spinal damage has to be in line with seat 12c and the wheel anyway?
Who says what angle you were sitting at?
You could get spinal damage anywhere in the plane with enough g, regardless of angles between seats and wheels.
And once again, an impact sufficient to damage spinal vertebrae is going to be associated with a major engineering problem. That there clearly was not one is a pretty convincing argument that this injury was not/could not have been caused by the landing you've referred to.
Why was no one else affected, even slightly?

[dook]

The same problem here with claims of whiplash in car incidents at less than ten miles per hour.

[k2neno]

I can't and neither, I suspect, can you. How deep was the wingtip underground at this angle between seat 12c and the wheel?
What says spinal damage has to be in line with seat 12c and the wheel anyway?
Who says what angle you were sitting at?
You could get spinal damage anywhere in the plane with enough g, regardless of angles between seats and wheels.
And once again, an impact sufficient to damage spinal vertebrae is going to be associated with a major engineering problem. That there clearly was not one is a pretty convincing argument that this injury was not/could not have been caused by the landing you've referred to.
Why was no one else affected, even slightly?
As a plane in a first landing attempt hit a ground just with the right main gear a force that was transmitted trough the landing gear and plane frame is transmitted to the human body from the same direction. In a same moment the plane start to drift to the right side so you have also rotational force tending to twist a spine to the right putting a spine out of balance, disabling a core muscles from they role to stabilize the spine, all the the pressure stays on the spinal discs for a next seconds till a plane take off again. Discs bulge, herniate on a point of the biggest pressure if they can't withstand the force and that is the one from which the force is applied. For this is important the position and point of impact, distance from the seat to the gear, weight of the plane, speed, total time that plane stayed on a single gear, horizontal rotation of the plane.... From a flightaware data you can see that this was not quite a normal landing.

[air pig]

So with so much damage how did you get of the aircraft?

[PDR1]

I'm assuming telekinesis, but it's just a pet theory.

I do love this repeated BS about the arm-rests being too low for his height, as if that was some kind of culpable negligence. Personally I think he suffered the back injury through falling off a step ladder while trying to reach the top shelf of the Insurance Scams section in the Flywheel Shyster and Flywheel Memorial Library (but again, that's pure speculation on my part)

PDR

[k2neno]

So with so much damage how did you get of the aircraft?
Pain and damage from disc herniation don't function that way. You can blow your disc (in most cases you feel just a short sharp pain in a moment of herniation) and a real symptoms permanent pain, sciatica...appear gradually after in hours or days.

[dook]

Good call PDR1.

[DaveReidUK]

From a flightaware data you can see that this was not quite a normal landing.

Could you explain how you have worked that out ?

[Espada III]

I have many tall friends, obese friends and even short and/or skinny friends but no one has ever moaned about the position of armrests and their contribution to discomfort.. All the more so no one has blamed them for contributing to an injury.

​​​​​​You don't need armrests to sit up straight during landings. Simply put feet at on the floor and press your back against the seat back; don't slouch. This alleged injury was not caused by the landing per se; if it was there would be other injuries and damage to the aircraft. The fact there are none means that this injury was probably an exacerbation of a known pre-existing issue and the OP is hoping to garner some money without good reason.

Most people on here have flown hundreds of times and have at one time or another experienced a hard landing. I have experienced two; one so hard the Lufthansa pilot stood at the cockpit door apologising as we walked off the plane. But no one suffered an injury as a result. This claim is without merit.

[air pig]

Pain and damage from disc herniation don't function that way. You can blow your disc (in most cases you feel just a short sharp pain in a moment of herniation) and a real symptoms permanent pain, sciatica...appear gradually after in hours or days.

Disc herniation normally occurs during lifting an object when the spine is curved, in line vertical impact will not herniate a disc. this case lacks any merit.

[cooperplace]

k2neno, perhaps you're getting the message that no-one believes you.

[Hotel Tango]

k2neno, did you perhaps lift a very heavy suitcase off the baggage belt just after your "heavy" landing? I'm not going to be unkind and suggest that you are trying to con anyone, but it could well be that the injury was caused prior to or post that landing and that your only recall of anything unusual roughly in that period was the landing.

[Mark in CA]

k2neno, did you perhaps lift a very heavy suitcase off the baggage belt just after your "heavy" landing? I'm not going to be unkind and suggest that you are trying to con anyone, but it could well be that the injury was caused prior to or post that landing and that your only recall of anything unusual roughly in that period was the landing.
Was wondering the same thing. Or if there had been a prior injury even longer before that created an unstable situation prone to further injury. Without more info, it's impossible to know, and these are the kinds of questions a defense attorney (for the airline) would be asking. I think proving injury from such a landing would be a low probability event.