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KelvinD
23rd Nov 2018, 19:25
I am pleased I voted to leave the EU when I read articles such as this on the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46315969
This is the second time in recent months that a Spanish court has declared open season on vulnerable females. In the latest case, tow animals were cleared of raping a woman because they didn't use violence toward her. Despite her begging them to stop.
And the EU would have us believe that similar laws would apply across the EU, with the ECJ there to back that up.
Spain seems not to have realised the Inquisition has gone and other nations try to apply some form of civilised justice across the board. But then, we currently have the Spanish P.M. claiming he will use a veto to stop the UK/EU Brexit agreement, despite the fact neither he nor any other nation in the EU has a veto on this particular topic. The Spanish people in general are nice, easy going people. So where do they find their politicians/law makers? Shame on Spain!

Nemrytter
23rd Nov 2018, 23:00
Yes, isn't it wonderful that you voted for the UK to leave the EU, thus diluting the UK's power over the bloc whilst (relatively speaking) increasing the power of Spain. Well done.

[edit] As a sidenote to those of you lacking braincells / inhabitants of Planet Daily Mail: Spain does not have a veto over your brexit agreement. But hey, that's a fact and I know that you lot have a certain unease when it comes to reality.

KelvinD
23rd Nov 2018, 23:12
Nemrytter: I take it you are in favour of the UK paying huge sums of money to support institutions such as the ECJ (wasn't that a creation of the UK?) and then having to stand back, powerless, while the rule of the jungle prevails in at least one member country?
As for your sidlenote, I take it you chose to repeat what I had said in my post as a means of reinforcing/confirming my view?

Economics101
24th Nov 2018, 00:13
Kelvin D: I would agree that the Spanish judges seem to have reached a rather disgraceful verdict; how typical this is of the Spanish judicial system may be another matter.
However laws on sexual offences are a purely domestic matter and I don't see what the EU or the ECJ has to do with this. Any appeals would end up in the Spanish courts, unless they eventually went to the European Court of Human Rights. But this court is not an EU institution: it predates the EU and sits in The Hague.

So don't try to demonise the EU or the ECJ by bringing up something which has virtually nothing to do with them.

In Ireland's case it was pressure from the EU (or previously the EEC) which lead to radical improvement in women's rights, especially in the workplace. I suspect that they had a somewhat similar effect in the UK.

megan
24th Nov 2018, 01:02
Spain does not have a vetoYou better educate the Spanish government then. Spanish official being interviewed on local news clip said they do. I have no idea personally.

racedo
24th Nov 2018, 01:38
Bearing in mind the way Rape gangs from a particular Ethnic background were able to prey on young females for decades. All the while Council and Police looked on and did nothing, there is little UK can crow about and point at someone else in relation to sexual offences.

chevvron
24th Nov 2018, 06:17
Unfortunately, our dear PM has agreed that ECJ rules will still apply after brexit.
Doesn't she realise that one of the reasons we voted for brexit was to break us away from ECJ judgements.

Krystal n chips
24th Nov 2018, 07:43
Unfortunately, our dear PM has agreed that ECJ rules will still apply after brexit.
Doesn't she realise that one of the reasons we voted for brexit was to break us away from ECJ judgements.

I know, terrible isn't it that the UK will still have to adhere to damned foreign legislation......shame Treeza was so enthusiastic in using the "take back control " as part of her slogans campaign really. After all, what possible benefits could the UK derive from not being free to return to those halcyon days of public executions, transportation to the Colonies, no workers rights, no opportunity to make a contribution .........but, don't worry too much because the term "reviewed " has already been mentioned to placate the Mail readers who wish to see those days return......seemingly unaware that they to will be affected , if, and when, for example certain Employment Acts get repealed.

The UK plans to leave the European Court of Justice ? here's what it means for you (http://theconversation.com/the-uk-plans-to-leave-the-european-court-of-justice-heres-what-it-means-for-you-71524)

Sprogget
24th Nov 2018, 09:18
This case has literally nothing to do with the European union beyond the fact that Spain is a member It's this kind of irrational prejudice borne of ignorance & ideological zealotry conflating entirely separate issues that's brought us to this mess.

TURIN
24th Nov 2018, 10:05
Kelvin D

The BBC article literally states that the Spanish government is looking to change the law....

After the "wolf pack" ruling, Spain's government asked a group of legal experts to revise the sexual assault laws, with a view to unifying the different offences under the umbrella term rape.

The ECJ are not involved. Neither are the EU.

Where the ECJ are involved is in regulation enforcement of aviation safety across Europe. Something that is quite handy and will cause huge problems for all who work in or use aviation services in the UK. If you and your ilk get their way and we leave without a deal woe betide the chaos.

Please educate yourself before posting such nonsense again.

Elephant and Castle
24th Nov 2018, 12:02
So on the basis of a Daily Mail 500 word article you consider yourself better informed and even able to pass judgement than those that attended weeks of trial. I am not sure why they bothered with the trial, the hearings, the witness statements, the cross interrogations, police statements, years of law study, etc, etc, etc.

Next time we can just give you a sheet of A4 with some spin of a story and you can just past judgement there and then.

People´s ignorance and delusions of self importance beggars belief.

racedo
24th Nov 2018, 13:07
Could someone produce all the ECJ case Judgements that they do not agree with ?

LowNSlow
24th Nov 2018, 14:18
KnC sorry to disappoint but the majority of UK employment law originated in the UK old bean. http://blog.oup.com/2016/06/worker-protection-employment-law/

radedo here's an interesting old article about the ECJ influence on the UK's laws. OK, it's from the Torygraph but the basic truths remain: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/the-eus-court-is-picking-apart-our-laws/

Turin, actually it's ICAO who have overall oversight of aviation safety, EASA is effectively the nominated "country representative to ICAO for the EASA member countries: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Safety_Oversight . Although the ECJ is the enforcer of EASA rules and regulations apparently the ECJ has never issued any rulings on EASA decisions:
The quote below was taken from this document: http://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmeuleg/301-xiv/30117.htm
14.11However, we also note the views of industry stakeholders that EASA is a technical agency and operates on the basis of consensus, so voting rights are less important than being able to be present at meetings and to provide detailed input. We also note that the CJEU has never issued a ruling in relation to a decision by EASA.

Denti
24th Nov 2018, 19:29
Well, it probably never ruled about EASA stuff in itself. But it certainly did rule about aviation stuff in the dispute between southern germany and switzerland about approaches into zurich (T319/05).

KelvinD
24th Nov 2018, 21:14
Turin: I didn't specifically say the ECJ or the EU were involved. I was railing against law being applied in another EU country in such an unjust manner, yet the EU and the ECJ say and do nothing about that. Meanwhile, in Poland the same institutions have given the Polish government a kicking, forcing them to overturn a recently implemented law regarding the retirement age of judges. In that same country, not long after joining the EU, Polish shipyards were forced to shut down, throwing thousand out of work. The point is; when it suits, the EU and the ECJ can act and turn a blind eye when it doesn't. The message to Spain is "bang away lads, women are not deemed worthy of interference from the "supernation", the EU.
Please educate yourself before posting such nonsense again.
May I suggest you try the same. I have been educating myself for a lot longer than you. Why not start with your understanding of where EASA is going. Take your lead from LowNSlow's offering.
Sprogett: Your post makes you an idiot. Throughout these various threads at various times, I have said quite clearly that I was not against much of the EU and was on the verge of voting Remain but it is constitution and the behaviour of the whole EU political edifice that eventually tilted me toward Leave. No zealotry or irrational prejudice.
Racedo: I see the point you are trying to make but the UK cases are not the same thing. You are right re those responsible failing to do the right thing but, once caught, the perpetrators were properly dealt with. In the Spanish cases, the verdicts and sentences flew in the face of credulity.

Economics101
24th Nov 2018, 23:15
KelvinD: you say: I was railing against law being applied in another EU country in such an unjust manner, yet the EU and the ECJ say and do nothing about that. Meanwhile, in Poland the same institutions have given the Polish government a kicking, forcing them to overturn a recently implemented law regarding the retirement age of judges.

If law is applied in an EU country in ... an unjust manner, then that is a purely domestic issue if it as a rape case which is of purely national competency. The problem of the Polish judiciary (in particular the Supreme Court) involves the basic independence of the courts which is an EU issue, or more particularly an issue for other EU member states. This can be illustrated by a recent case where a European extradition warrant to Poland was sought in Ireland for the deportation of a person accused of a crime in Poland. The Irish High Court refused the request on the grounds that there was reason to question the independence of the Polish courts due to interference by the Polish government: the case was referred to the European courts for adjudication, and they seem to have ruled that the individual concerned could be extradited after all. The point I am trying to make is that if you are to have effective extradition procedures then you have to have courts adhering to common basic standards. Otherwise you might end up extraditing someone to a hellhole where legal standards were totally unacceptable.

The Polish government last week seem to have seen some sense and have withdrawn their attempt to retire Supreme Court judges.

Sprogget
24th Nov 2018, 23:25
I am pleased I voted to leave the EU when I read articles such as this on the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46315969


You're fooling yourself and only yourself.

Torquetalk
24th Nov 2018, 23:44
Bearing in mind the way Rape gangs from a particular Ethnic background were able to prey on young females for decades. All the while Council and Police looked on and did nothing, there is little UK can crow about and point at someone else in relation to sexual offences.

That‘s a right royal mixing of themes! You are no doubt referrring to the disturbing incidence of gangs, many of a Pakistani immigrant background, carrying out orchestrated sexual exploitation of vulnerable young women in a number of British cities. Inhuman and sad much of it. And indeed, these young women were failed by many people. But...

If you cared about the sexual exploitation of the vulnerable, you would not focus on the one group to promote a racist and discriminatory post because it is a much bigger, sadder and more invidious issue than such a cheap shot deserves - you are just using this as a hobbyhorse - shame on you.

racedo
25th Nov 2018, 01:23
In that same country, not long after joining the EU, Polish shipyards were forced to shut down, throwing thousand out of work. The point is; when it suits, the EU and the ECJ can act and turn a blind eye when it doesn't.


Hmmm

UK Coal mines were shut by Uk Govt not EU.

Unprofitable and uneconomic business get closed down when opened up to real competition, its why there are few UK shipyards as well.

racedo
25th Nov 2018, 01:27
That‘s a right royal mixing of themes! You are no doubt referrring to the disturbing incidence of gangs, many of a Pakistani immigrant background, carrying out orchestrated sexual exploitation of vulnerable young women in a number of British cities. Inhuman and sad much of it. And indeed, these young women were failed by many people. But...

If you cared about the sexual exploitation of the vulnerable, you would not focus on the one group to promote a racist and discriminatory post because it is a much bigger, sadder and more invidious issue than such a cheap shot deserves - you are just using this as a hobbyhorse - shame on you.

Save me the pious outrage.

UK Police, Councils and Court refused to act because they were scared of being accused of Racism, telling people that 14 year old girls driven into abuse had made "lifestyle" choices to be prostitutes. Nothing to do with EU and it went on for DECADES even though certain MPs were highlighting it and getting told to keep quiet.
It highlights how a single group shut down ANY debate on the abuse.

Torquetalk
25th Nov 2018, 09:39
Save me the pious outrage.

UK Police, Councils and Court refused to act because they were scared of being accused of Racism, telling people that 14 year old girls driven into abuse had made "lifestyle" choices to be prostitutes. Nothing to do with EU and it went on for DECADES even though certain MPs were highlighting it and getting told to keep quiet.
It highlights how a single group shut down ANY debate on the abuse.

Racedo, as you say yourself, this has nothing to do with the EU or the ECJ. But it was you who gave that particular example, muddling in “problems with certain ethnic groups“.

And you can wear that mock pious outrage badge yourself. I don’t believe for a moment that you are interested in the welfare of abuse victims. But you do care about the fact that the perpetrators in your example were not white Britains. You might as easily have picked the JS case; or systematic abuse in care homes; or serial abuse by priests. All of those examples also involved the failure to respond. And many more victims. Your remark that certain MPs were raising the issue and were told to keep quiet is complete nonesense.

747 jock
25th Nov 2018, 10:13
Your remark that certain MPs were raising the issue and were told to keep quiet is complete nonesense.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/defiant-sarah-champion-mp-vows-keep-speaking-sex-abuse-gangs/

A number of MPs and campaigners came out to support the Labour MP following her resignation, after Mr Corbyn said she was wrong to highlight the relevance of cultural background in child sex grooming cases.

oldairphot
25th Nov 2018, 10:56
I am pleased I voted to leave the EU when I read articles such as this on the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46315969
This is the second time in recent months that a Spanish court has declared open season on vulnerable females. In the latest case, tow animals were cleared of raping a woman because they didn't use violence toward her. Despite her begging them to stop.
And the EU would have us believe that similar laws would apply across the EU, with the ECJ there to back that up.
Spain seems not to have realised the Inquisition has gone and other nations try to apply some form of civilised justice across the board. But then, we currently have the Spanish P.M. claiming he will use a veto to stop the UK/EU Brexit agreement, despite the fact neither he nor any other nation in the EU has a veto on this particular topic. The Spanish people in general are nice, easy going people. So where do they find their politicians/law makers? Shame on Spain!
The same cesspit that ours crawl out from I imagine

Torquetalk
25th Nov 2018, 12:10
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/defiant-sarah-champion-mp-vows-keep-speaking-sex-abuse-gangs/

“…it went on for DECADES even though certain MPs were highlighting it and being told to keep quite…”

Which MPs raised which issue in the House and when? Who tried to suppress them?

A distinction must be made between how the issue is being raised now and the implication that some kind of conspiracy prevented MPs raising it in the House historically.

747 jock
25th Nov 2018, 12:43
“…it went on for DECADES even though certain MPs were highlighting it and being told to keep quite…”

Which MPs raised which issue in the House and when? Who tried to suppress them?

A distinction must be made between how the issue is being raised now and the implication that some kind of conspiracy prevented MPs raising it in the House historically.

Did racedo make any mention of it being mentioned in the House?
No. This is something that you have decided to bring into the argument in an attempt to divert the subject, something that does you no favours.

pax britanica
25th Nov 2018, 13:04
Criminal laws remain almost entirely a national issue even after 40 years of the EU.

UKs problems are of our own making as indeed are problems in some other EU countries -the Eu might try and do something about immigration issues but the Czechs, Slovaks, Poles and Hungarians will just ignore them as do most countries when they dont like a law that applies to them and they think they can get away with it. Except of course us in UK who driven by money grabbing lawyers try to enforce every Eu proposal or ECJ judgment that came about.

As for the issue about foreigners impacting on our laws, not exactly like we have a great legal system is it , with one law for the rich and one for the rest- the years of colluding with the police to fit up various Irish terrorist groups etc etc, I am not saying ECJ is any better but it certainly isnt materially worse.
Also judges and lawyers get paid a lot less in the Eu than here and that s a good reason for moving in that direction on its own and being a judge is just a judge with much less this red robes and big wigs and 'my lord' and your 'honour 'crap that we have to put up with

Torquetalk
25th Nov 2018, 13:57
Did racedo make any mention of it being mentioned in the House?
No. This is something that you have decided to bring into the argument in an attempt to divert the subject, something that does you no favours.

The quote is from the OP, so where were MPs raising the issue, if not in the House?

Racebo chose to limit his example to rape gangs of given ethnicity. What has recently been in the courts concerns events some 16 years ago. The suggestion he made was that MPs knew about this historically and that this knowledge and concern was suppressed. Really? Is there any evidence for this?

I actually agree with recebo’s core argument that it isn’t the EU or ECJs responsibility that UK agencies failed to intervene and apply the law. It’s a shame he piggybacked his point with an unnecessarily specific example which was discriminatory and then implied conspiracy.

racedo
25th Nov 2018, 16:05
Racedo, as you say yourself, this has nothing to do with the EU or the ECJ. But it was you who gave that particular example, muddling in “problems with certain ethnic groups“.

And you can wear that mock pious outrage badge yourself. I don’t believe for a moment that you are interested in the welfare of abuse victims. But you do care about the fact that the perpetrators in your example were not white Britains. You might as easily have picked the JS case; or systematic abuse in care homes; or serial abuse by priests. All of those examples also involved the failure to respond. And many more victims. Your remark that certain MPs were raising the issue and were told to keep quiet is complete nonesense.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/30/rotherham-girls-could-have-been-spared-ann-cryer

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6426145/Tory-donor-gave-party-300-000-unwittingly-profits-prostitutes.html

Save me the crap as Ann Cryer was talking of this years ago and abused for daring to even suggest it.

I am highlight how National Law as indicated by OP was quite happy to ignore Sexual abuse and the fact it has zero to do with EU or ECJ.

racedo
25th Nov 2018, 16:08
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/18/defiant-sarah-champion-mp-vows-keep-speaking-sex-abuse-gangs/

Ann Cryer https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/30/rotherham-girls-could-have-been-spared-ann-cryer was abused for even sugegsting it.

racedo
25th Nov 2018, 16:11
The quote is from the OP, so where were MPs raising the issue, if not in the House?

Racebo chose to limit his example to rape gangs of given ethnicity. What has recently been in the courts concerns events some 16 years ago. The suggestion he made was that MPs knew about this historically and that this knowledge and concern was suppressed. Really? Is there any evidence for this?

I actually agree with recebo’s core argument that it isn’t the EU or ECJs responsibility that UK agencies failed to intervene and apply the law. It’s a shame he piggybacked his point with an unnecessarily specific example which was discriminatory and then implied conspiracy.

Nope it didn't LIMIT anything. I showed how National Laws regarding sexual abuse were conveniently ignored and the whole extablishment covered it up. OP highlighted 1 case, I highlighted a succession of cases that have Zero to do with EU or ECJ and you are bitching about ethnicity. This is the same ethnicity arguement used to shut up anybody who raised the issue over last 20 years.

racedo
25th Nov 2018, 16:16
As for the issue about foreigners impacting on our laws, not exactly like we have a great legal system is it , with one law for the rich and one for the rest- the years of colluding with the police to fit up various Irish terrorist groups etc etc, I am not saying ECJ is any better but it certainly isnt materially worse.
Also judges and lawyers get paid a lot less in the Eu than here and that s a good reason for moving in that direction on its own and being a judge is just a judge with much less this red robes and big wigs and 'my lord' and your 'honour 'crap that we have to put up with

Think it should be phrased as the fitting up anybody with Irish connections be it Birmingham 6, Maguire family, Guildford 4, Judith Ward and others when police and establishment were well aware they were Innocent.

Balcombe street IRA gang admitted involvement in Guildford to Police negotuator Peter Imbert who later head of Met Police. They still kept Guildford 4 in jail knowing they had no part of it.

fitliker
25th Nov 2018, 16:58
The shame does not belong to the victims .
The SHAME belongs to those who do the deed against the victims. There is a lot of shame to go around , some even for those who attempt to defend those who do the deeds , by attempting to silence those who are brave enough to share their pain.
Some say the cover up can be as bad as the crime ,
I do not think someone who has suffered sexual slavery would agree .
The shame belongs to those who did the deed, not the Victims.
To victimize the victims again by bullying them into silence is just more shame for those who use political fallacy to defend the offenders from prosecution .
Defend the victims , as the law should have done.
Not the perpetrators of these heinous crimes .

Everyone is entitled to a defence in court , but to defend these monsters out of court is the lowest form of prejudice that I have seen in my lifetime .
Anyone further harming the victims by defending these perverts and sexual deviants should be in the dock alongside them .


The shame belongs to the abuser not the abused .

Rant mode off :(

Spunky Monkey
27th Nov 2018, 11:07
Fitliker
You are 100% correct - here lies the cancer in our society.
People are too busy making excuses for perpetrators and then hiding behind minority status, so that the original issue is muddied by do gooders and those who are professionally offended.
At least society has started growing a pair and calling out people for who they are.
Its not bullying, its stating the obvious.