AFPRB 2019 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Melchett01

22nd Nov 2018, 17:19

Announced today that the AFPRB report will be late again next year, with the Board being asked to report in May and the pay settlement thrashed out over the summer for release later in the year. But apparently they have learned lessons (that’ll be a first for the MOD) from this year and will implement accordingly.

Timing no doubt influenced by BREXIT and the need to both make sure the country hasn’t imploded by 1 Apr and that there is actually some money available to pay anybody anything at all. But still rather frustrating to hear given that we still haven’t actually received the ‘bonus’ element from this year’s round and won’t until March next year. I sense kicking the can down the road this year has set the precedent for what will be the new norm i.e. yet more administrative chaos - or as my elderly mother said when I described how this year’s pay was being implemented, ‘can’t they get anything right these days?’

MPN11

22nd Nov 2018, 17:50

As an RAF Pensioner, I have always just sat back and accepted the current kick in the testes, even when serving.. Not much a chap can do about it, really.

Write to my MP? Michael Gove has other matters on his mind!!

Door Slider

22nd Nov 2018, 18:01

Half the “bonus” element is in our November pay and the remainder will be in March.

MPN11

22nd Nov 2018, 18:06

Similar processes in the 1980s and going forward, IIRC.

Melchett01

22nd Nov 2018, 18:14

Half the “bonus” element is in our November pay and the remainder will be in March.

And that is the way I think it will be from now on to reduce the pay bill even further - delayed pay rises, at a level lower than that recommended by the Board, with the difference paid as a one of bonus over a number of months. Anything but doing the right thing by their ‘best asset’.

And this is with our current ‘simple’ pay structures. Imagine the chaos if the Chancellor has his way and regional pay scales are introduced or if the AFPRB recommend bespoke pay spines for individual cohorts.

Party Animal

22nd Nov 2018, 19:51

But if it’s any consolation, JPA now has the ‘bonus’ software patch installed. So the 0.7% next year could be paid as a one’er and realistically in Oct 19. Either way, you can feel it coming!

Jumping_Jack

23rd Nov 2018, 10:58

Feeling valued? Anyone?

Foghorn Leghorn

23rd Nov 2018, 15:38

So, what happens if one were to leave the Service between now and the second half of the payment in March?

Just This Once...

23rd Nov 2018, 19:14

As someone who did leave midway through this pantomime it has been river of additional payments, deductions, pension revisions and gratuity uplifts.

Melchett01

23rd Nov 2018, 19:55

Feeling valued? Anyone?

Oh yes, hugely valued. On top of being told that RAF personnel in JFC wont be getting the 5 extra days stand down CAS has awarded to all RAF personnel in recognition of 100 years and operational commitment and success, we’re all feeling the love here this week!

gr4techie

24th Nov 2018, 18:32

I would quite happily have the same pay and benefits as the Pay Review Body...

Link (https://publicappointments.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/appointment/armed-forces-pay-review-body-afprb-member-with-board-level-military-experience/)

MPN11

24th Nov 2018, 18:45

Is the 5 extra days in one lump, being used to fill the hristmas/New Year gap, or available piecemeal at Unit Cdr’s discretion, or added to Annual Leave entitlement?

4everAD

24th Nov 2018, 19:58

Is the 5 extra days in one lump, being used to fill the hristmas/New Year gap, or available piecemeal at Unit Cdr’s discretion, or added to Annual Leave entitlement?
the latter.

Melchett01

25th Nov 2018, 13:01

the latter.

Glad you piped up there. Seeing as we weren’t officially told about it, but heard on the grapevine, we weren’t told the detail. It’s almost like they hoped we wouldn’t find out!

Training Risky

26th Nov 2018, 11:23

Oh yes, hugely valued. On top of being told that RAF personnel in JFC wont be getting the 5 extra days stand down CAS has awarded to all RAF personnel in recognition of 100 years and operational commitment and success, we’re all feeling the love here this week!

Melch. That is appalling 'leadership' from the JFC towers! Is this decision down to that brown-job 4-star?

Jumping_Jack

26th Nov 2018, 13:51

alfred_the_great

26th Nov 2018, 16:17

bunta130

26th Nov 2018, 17:03

Melchett01. I copied CAS' letter to my light blue 2* (also JFC) with the relevant bit highlighted where CAS requests that TLBs other than the Air TLB honour the additional grant. Got a flat 'no' as it was considered 'divisive'. Thanks for nothing Boss.

If that really is the case, perhaps CAS would be interested in the 2-Star's response....... You are not all of one cloth, even within JFC, despite wearing combat pyjamas. I'm sure, if the boot was on the other foot, the Army or RN would have absolutely no hesitation in 'rewarding' their personnel appropriately and unilaterally.

MPN11

26th Nov 2018, 18:53

Do the others get a day off for Trafalgar Day or Minden Day? Different, I know, but still a rather sh1tty deal ... unless the extra 5 can be carried forward [to the next appointment] of course.

4everAD

27th Nov 2018, 05:51

The Navy guys will soon be getting techie pay the RAF guys aren't that's very divisive!

Door Slider

27th Nov 2018, 09:10

The Navy guys will soon be getting techie pay the RAF guys aren't that's very divisive!

Navy Rotary Crewmen are in Trade Supp 3 where as RAF Rotary Crewmen are in Trade Sup 2.

My understanding is that a Techie pay spine was imminent for the RAF too?

4everAD

27th Nov 2018, 14:48

Navy Rotary Crewmen are in Trade Supp 3 where as RAF Rotary Crewmen are in Trade Sup 2.

My understanding is that a Techie pay spine was imminent for the RAF too?
Nothing confirmed yet as far as I'm aware, my point was more to do with the numerous differences between the services which could be considered divisive, a few extra days leave because you're in the RAF isn't going to cause a riot.

Melchett01

3rd Dec 2018, 20:32

Melch. That is appalling 'leadership' from the JFC towers! Is this decision down to that brown-job 4-star?

TR,

Yes, it is indeed. Just saw the JFC Christmas leave policy today - 3 weeks all round to ensure you get a good break (less PJHQ who are on 2 weeks), but no extra leave is to be awarded as JFC personnel are already carrying leave over so don’t need any more. Plus it would be divisive apparently.

I assume Civil Servants in JFC will therefore not be getting privilege days this year? And juniors won’t be getting REN leave? After all, no need for it is there and it’s all one team. And you know I think the General has hit on a savings measure there too; unless you spend all your salary each year you don’t need your annual rise as promulgated by the AFPRB. All crazy suggestions, all following the same logic as the JFC decision.

Jumping_Jack

4th Dec 2018, 07:58

The JFC '3 Weeks all round' doesn't appear to have permeated to DefAc. 2 weeks, that's your lot (22nd to 6th).

Jumping_Jack

4th Dec 2018, 10:33

Good for them.....

Lima Juliet

2nd Jul 2019, 10:52

Must be nearly time? I’ll start the rumours; 3% with a 0.5% ‘bonus’...

Well, you can but hope... :}

Door Slider

2nd Jul 2019, 12:59

Must be nearly time? I’ll start the rumours; 3% with a 0.5% ‘bonus’...

Well, you can but hope... :}

I think it will be 2%, if we are lucky.

Taking into account the economy, Brexit uncertainty etc etc I think I would be content with 2%

unclenelli

2nd Jul 2019, 16:17

Before last years 2%+0.9% weren't we told 6.5% over 3 years......?
But remember the starting point for this year is 2017+2%, so if we get 1.5%, we've already had 0.9 as a bonus, so that equates to 2017+2%+0.6%, so next years start isn't even up to 2018 as a starting point
More likely to be 2%, so 2018+1.1% (more than an austerity 1%, but only just!). They'll postpone the remaining 2.5% as long as possible, so 2020, but then try and claim the bonuses were already included!!!

Party Animal

3rd Jul 2019, 19:23

Not a bad guess LJ and interestingly, not a peep heard from the AFPRB so far this year? But the good Boris has promised a huge rise for the public sector, so let's hope it's wrapped up before October.

Door Slider

3rd Jul 2019, 22:42

4everAD

4th Jul 2019, 04:41

I believe the AFPRB submitted their report to the government on 2 May.

We had the AFPRB here last week and the rest of the independent pay review bodies are still giving their reports to the government so our 'pay rise' can't be announced until they're all in and considered. Again it kind of makes a mockery of the system, how can one report be considered in isolation when the government is now insisting on having all the reports in before announcements are made?

lightbluefootprint

4th Jul 2019, 12:32

We had the AFPRB here last week and the rest of the independent pay review bodies are still giving their reports to the government so our 'pay rise' can't be announced until they're all in and considered. Again it kind of makes a mockery of the system, how can one report be considered in isolation when the government is now insisting on having all the reports in before announcements are made?

If there is ever a bright side to this kind of thing, the NHS settlements announced last year cover up to March 2021, so at least the biggest of the public sector groups isn't holding everyone else up.

Lima Juliet

18th Jul 2019, 22:45

According to the times - 2.9% pay rise.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/public-sector-pay-rise-may-gives-2bn-to-teachers-police-and-armed-forces-rllv0lmtg

Police officers will receive a 2.5 per cent pay rise across the board, soldiers 2.9 per cent and teachers and other school staff 2.75 per cent. Dentists and consultants will get 2.5 per cent and senior civil servants 2 per cent.

I wonder if there is a ‘bonus’ to go on top?

M1key

19th Jul 2019, 04:01

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-49041295

For those that read the Daily Mail/Sun. (without the Times subscription). 😉

SwitchMonkey

19th Jul 2019, 08:41

Penny Mordaunt, the defence secretary, has secured a 2.5 per cent rise for all members of the armed forces. The salary for the lowest-paid privates will go up from £19,025 to £20,000. She has made clear that pay increases for soldiers and other forces personnel are the “right priority” given their “vital importance” and “hard work and self-sacrifice” in protecting Britain.

and

“It is the highest nominal pay increase since the coalition. But these increases are still slower than pay rises that are happening on average in the private sector. With the partial exception of schools, there seems to be no new money to fund these pay rises, meaning savings will have to be made elsewhere.”

If this is to be trusted then the 2.9% headline figure won’t be for everyone.

ORAC

22nd Jul 2019, 07:37

POLITICO:

There are a whopping 30 written ministerial statements on the order paper (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/ob190722.htm) today, which is even more than the 27 last Thursday. Goodness knows how high the figure will get by the end of this week. A handful of today’s announcements cover the public sector pay rises leaked to the Times last week, but there are potentially interesting updates too on housing, local government, energy, teachers, prisons, the RAF, “electoral integrity,” support for families and more.

.......https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/ob190722.htm
STATEMENTS TO BE MADE TODAY

Secretary of State for Defence

10.Armed Forces Pay Review Body Report 2019

11.Combat Air Strategy Update

12.Support for Armed Forces Personnel and Veterans

13.UN Mission Update

JEMster

22nd Jul 2019, 10:14

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2019-07-22/HCWS1770/
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2019-07-22/HCWS1771/
2.9% up to 1-star
2.0% 2-star and above

AFPRB report
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/armed-forces-pay-review-body-forty-eighth-report-2019

alfred_the_great

22nd Jul 2019, 17:36

I was expecting far more comment on this.

Perhaps a a reflection of the board population...

unclenelli

22nd Jul 2019, 18:18

MPN11

22nd Jul 2019, 19:02

Like many here, I only care about my Pension. But glad to see some recognition for the hard-working folks who are still flogging their butts off. I'll let others do the current number-crunching, having read the previous post!

Lima Juliet

22nd Jul 2019, 19:40

The figures in this years report for 2018 are 0.9% lower than was published & "recommended" last year, so we only actually get 2% above last year, the extra 0.9% - we've already had!!!!!
(See what I said above #29, at least better than my predicted 1.5%!!)
I'm leaving at the end of Aug, so at least now I get an additional small paypacket at the end of Sept , when I get my backdated pay!!!

So yet again we are below:
Police 2.5%
Teachers 2.75%
Medics 2.5%
(Unless they too have smoke & mirrors in effect)

I’m not sure of your logic there fella? It was 2% last year in 2018 with a 0.9% ‘bonus’ - which was the same as, for example, the Police, but they did not get a 0.9% ‘bonus’ payment on top. This year, 2019, we get 2.9% (no bonus, so all pensionable) and that is still better than the Police who get 2.5%, medics who get 2.5% and teachers who get 2.75% this year?

I really hope that you are not leaving the Service on the Fake News you have just espoused?? :confused:

SwitchMonkey

22nd Jul 2019, 22:02

I’m not sure of your logic there fella? It was 2% last year in 2018 with a 0.9% ‘bonus’ - which was the same as, for example, the Police, but they did not get a 0.9% ‘bonus’ payment on top. This year, 2019, we get 2.9% (no bonus, so all pensionable) and that is still better than the Police who get 2.5%, medics who get 2.5% and teachers who get 2.75% this year?

I really hope that you are not leaving the Service on the Fake News you have just espoused?? :confused:

I think I get the point being made above.

i). In an ideal world where the previous year's 0.9% was part of core pay rise our 2019 pay would be: 100x1.029x1.029=105.8841 (tel:105.8841)
ii). Since the 0.9% was a bonus, our 2019 pay is a 2.9% increase on the sum before bonus: 100x1.02x1.029=104.958

iii). Rearranging the maths, given we did get paid 2.9% extra last year (as a one-off), you could look at it that we got: 100x1.029x1.02=104. (tel:104.8841)958

.
I'm sure there's someone with actual knowledge who will prove me wrong, I'm a simple pilot and can just about cope with this maths whilst keeping my socks on.

As far as I understand it, I get paid more this year year than I did last year but not as much more as would have been the case if the 2018 AFPRB recommendation had been fully accepted.

Do I feel that there was a bit of smoke & mirror action going on last year? Yes.

Does it look the the AFPRB have picked up on this and made some fairly pointed comments? Absolutely!

(And don't worry, I'm not missing the point that the Police got 100x1.02x1.025 = less than we did.)

Willard Whyte

22nd Jul 2019, 23:56

Lima Juliet

23rd Jul 2019, 00:07

'scuse my ignorance but I was living under a figurative rock between 2012 and '19. I'm back in on the PA spine but I'm just curious as to how the new tier 1/2 & rate 1 - 7 flying pay works vs. the old initial/middle/top/enhanced rates.

Basically you get Tier 1 (about £4,250) from start of flying training plus 6 years and then at OCU+6 years you go onto Tier 2 which starts at around £14k and then annually increments up to £20k. Plus also, at OCU+7 you get a £70k retention payment with a 6 year return of service (which in most cases will take you to the new Early Departure point of 20/40). If you tot it all up then you get more than the old scheme paid out - but for the youngsters it seems like ‘jam tomorrow’, which it is, but a lot more jam than before in total.

Get on MODnet and look for 2017DIN01-050 for more details. :ok:

Willard Whyte

23rd Jul 2019, 00:46

Thanks, away from home base, and MODnet access, for a while at the mo' but I'll check it out when I get back later this year.

PPRuNeUser0211

23rd Jul 2019, 05:55

Plus also, at OCU+7 you get a £70k retention payment with a 6 year return of service (which in most cases will take you to the new Early Departure point of 20/40).
Unless you spend, say, 3 or so years total holding in the training system.... But that would never happen!

Lima Juliet

23rd Jul 2019, 06:49

Thanks, away from home base, and MODnet access, for a while at the mo' but I'll check it out when I get back later this year.

If you are on Defence Connect on the Defence Gateway then you can find the DINs posted on there - try the RAF Diaspora site or “The Crew Room” as I’m pretty sure both are hosting the info.

Lima Juliet

23rd Jul 2019, 06:51

Unless you spend, say, 3 or so years total holding in the training system.... But that would never happen!

It would need to be 7 years plus prior to OCU completion for that to affect - but you can always ask Career Management to move your EDP Option by a few months if required?

VinRouge

23rd Jul 2019, 07:03

It would need to be 7 years plus prior to OCU completion for that to affect - but you can always ask Career Management to move your EDP Option by a few months if required?
you increasingly cut yourself off to a later second career and 3 year 12%+ pay settlements though....

not to mention what your marginal tax rate will look like the year of your 70k fri.

unclenelli

23rd Jul 2019, 11:40

I think I get the point being made above.

i). In an ideal world where the previous year's 0.9% was part of core pay rise our 2019 pay would be: 100x1.029x1.029=105.8841 (tel:105.8841)
ii). Since the 0.9% was a bonus, our 2019 pay is a 2.9% increase on the sum before bonus: 100x1.02x1.029=104.958

iii). Rearranging the maths, given we did get paid 2.9% extra last year (as a one-off), you could look at it that we got: 100x1.029x1.02=104. (tel:104.8841)958

.
I'm sure there's someone with actual knowledge who will prove me wrong, I'm a simple pilot and can just about cope with this maths whilst keeping my socks on.

As far as I understand it, I get paid more this year year than I did last year but not as much more as would have been the case if the 2018 AFPRB recommendation had been fully accepted.

Do I feel that there was a bit of smoke & mirror action going on last year? Yes.

Does it look the the AFPRB have picked up on this and made some fairly pointed comments? Absolutely!

(And don't worry, I'm not missing the point that the Police got 100x1.02x1.025 = less than we did.)

Switch Monkey, you got it in one. The starting point for this year was behind the finishing point of last year. The 0.9% bonus was "borrowed" from 2019 aka an advance of pay which has now been paid back in full.
(And I'm leaving injured)