Wearing of uniform by retired personnel

[Canadian Break]

Guys - would appreciate quick answers to this thread with references if possible. A Branch of the Service has recently lost 2 exceptional officers (one serving and one retired) at a young age. Their funerals will be very well attended by serving and retired officers, but a few retired people are talking of wearing uniform to the occasion which I am pretty sure is against a whole host of rules. The very last thing we need is for this to happen and attract a lot of unwanted attention. Can anyone point me to the actual rules that I can quote to these idiots?

CB

[Pontius Navigator]

QR s I believe. Generally I think you are correct but as usual there are exceptions. One I believe is at a Remembrance parade but I think when you are representing the RAF.

I have certainly seen retired officers wearing mess dress. One was a retired sqn ldr doc with an RN presence at a formal dinner. No other retired personnel wore uniform.

[Canadian Break]

Thanks PN - I believe that as a retired officer I can wear No 5s at a DIN but these people want to wear No 1s and medals at the funeral which I think is definitely a no go. CB

[Just This Once...]

Pretty low to call a retired serviceman a Walt for wearing their uniform and their medals.

There are defined circumstances where retired officers are requested to wear service dress, but as with anything in service life these are not at self-appointed times.

[Canadian Break]

JTO - you are correct - I apologise but I am sure you get my meaning. However, I have amended the post.

CB

[MOSTAFA]

The vast majority of the Royal Family get away with it. They even continue to get promoted as well!

[Tankertrashnav]

Canadian Break - here is chapter and verse on when you can and cannot wear service uniform (RAF dress regulations, para 0117). Funerals are not included in the list of permitted occasions

https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/RAF%20Dress%20Regulations%202004.pdf

[Training Risky]

Canadian Break - here is chapter and verse on when you can and cannot wear service uniform (RAF dress regulations, para 0117). Funerals are not included in the list of permitted occasions

https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/RAF%20Dress%20Regulations%202004.pdf

Hmmm...Para 0117 seems to indicate that these Retired Officers may have the authority to wear uniform to this funeral (assuming they are officers, which the OP has not explicitly specified. If not, then Para 0114 kyboshes it: "Non-commissioned ranks are not to wear uniform after their discharge from the Service". (Discriminatory against ORs? Hot potato..catch!))

0117. Occasions when No 1 Service Dress may be worn. Officers on the Retired and Reserve Lists, Royal Auxiliary Air Force officers and ex officers who are permitted to retain their rank may wear uniform on the following occasions: a. When attending:
....
(4) Their own wedding or other military weddings when the sponsor requests the wearing of uniform. (Comment: If the functions 'wedding' and 'funeral' are generally seen as similar social events and the sponsor has requested it...who can stop them?!)

(5) When attending formal Service functions. (Comment: Is this funeral a Service funeral? If so, then the authority is there!)

As an aside, this little nugget should have stopped the untidy gaggle of mixed-dress joint Service detachments who march in Gay Pride! (which is both a Carnival procession and a political meeting).

0113. Occasions on which uniform is not to be worn:
....
e. Carnival processions and other occasions when the reputation or political impartiality of the Armed Forces might be brought into question (e.g. political meetings).

After all, the Army recently sacked a Phase 1 trainee for merely having a photo taken with Tommy Robinson. What's good for the goose etc!

An extra aside, I was persuaded by an RBL official to wear uniform to collect donations for London Poppy Day this year and as I am Retired and on the Reserve List I believe this applies:

0117. Occasions when No 1 Service Dress may be worn. Officers on the Retired and Reserve Lists:

b. When participating in an official capacity, in: (1) Non-Service parades. (2) War Memorial services and associated parades.

[Saintsman]

Sorry to move the thread in a different direction, but sadly there is no way I would now fit into my old uniform :(

[MPN11]

Sorry to move the thread in a different direction, but sadly there is no way I would now fit into my old uniform :(
If you think you're unique, I have news for you! :)

[Paul C]

CB, just an observation from an Antipodean ex service person, after you have left the military, frankly, no one gives a toss about what you wear.

[teeteringhead]

When one retired from regular service, there was a huge stack of paperwork, including the dos and don'ts of uniform.

ISTR - and it's in the spirit (if not the letter) of 1358 - that the basic rules boiled down to 3.

1. Only ever No 1s or No 5s

2. Only when regular personnel would be wearing uniform.

3. If worn, standard of turnout must be up to regular standard (sic) - known as the no earrings or beards rule (unless you're a Prince!)

So - purely my interpretation - if regulars are wearing No 1s, then do so.

Questions arise: why at a Wedding and not a Funeral? And what are they going to do if you (apparently) transgress 1358?

And - as has been mentioned - this applies to Officers and (explicitly) not airmen.

[Chris Kebab]

Not something I personally would do but really cannot see an issue for those who previously served and felt it was appropriate. I certainly wouldn't be offended and suspect the gesture would be well received by the families of the departed souls at this particular funeral. Maybe just let it run Canadian?

[ShyTorque]

I left almost 25 years ago and the last thing I'd want to wear would be my old uniform (or even a rather larger sized one than I used to fit into). I see no purpose in it.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorry to butt in but may I ask a question please? May senior RAF officers retain their ranks in Civilian Life? I ask because in another life I was a lowly clerical wallah in Min of Av and there were a number of ex-RAF and RN officers working close by. Some liked to be referred to by their rank but others preferred just "Mr" in civvy life. Thanks.

[EngAl]

HD
When I retired I was given to understand that senior officers (Sqn Ldr and above) and their equivalents in the other services could use their rank if they wished. Junior officers could do so, but only after obtaining permission. Presumably Captain Mark Philipps got the ok! I've never bothered and after 18 years I cringe if someone raises the subject - Mr seems fine to me, but sometimes it may be relevant to the job someone's doing, so horses for courses.

[Fortissimo]

I saw plenty of retired officers pitch up in uniform to ACM Moran's memorial service, which was attended by the Duke of Edinburgh as well as all the VSOs; nobody worried about it. If you want to wear your uniform (usual caveats re appearance) to a Service funeral, crack on.

For Heathrow Director, use of rank technically depends on how your retirement was Gazetted - assuming you were not going under some sort of cloud, the phrase was normally "retaining the rank of ...". So, yes, you are perfectly entitled to use the rank, but it is a matter of personal choice (and circumstance) whether you do so or not. For example, someone attending a Mess function as a guest might well use their rank, whereas when working in your second career making widgets in Company XYZ, most would opt to stay as Mr.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Thank you Gentlemen - much appreciated.

[radar101]

When I retired I was given to understand that senior officers (Sqn Ldr and above) and their equivalents in the other services could use their rank if they wished.

On retiring I reappeared as a Civil Servant: all concerned probably knew my old rank but I was Mr. Just as well as I worked for many Sqn Ldrs over the years and using my old rank would have been a tad embarrassing all round!

Now I've retired fully, at sqn reunions etc ranks reappear on the seating plan - but I couldn't fit into my No5 now!!

[heights good]

HD
When I retired I was given to understand that senior officers (Sqn Ldr and above) and their equivalents in the other services could use their rank if they wished. Junior officers could do so, but only after obtaining permission. Presumably Captain Mark Philipps got the ok! I've never bothered and after 18 years I cringe if someone raises the subject - Mr seems fine to me, but sometimes it may be relevant to the job someone's doing, so horses for courses.

Mark Philips use of rank is something, I believe, to do with an exemption ex-Cavalry types can use if still playing with horses....

[ShyTorque]

Mark Philips use of rank is something, I believe, to do with an exemption ex-Cavalry types can use if still playing with horses....

I thought he divorced.... oh never mind!

[Canadian Break]

All, thanks for the advice/comments. My concern was that the SWO who is arranging the funeral of the serving officer had let it be known that retired officers SHOULD NOT (my caps) wear uniform. I was simply trying to avoid anything that may detract from the occasion. As someone suggested - I will now withdraw and let it run. CB

[Tankertrashnav]

Training Risky Frankly it doesn't bother me but I think your arguments are stretching a number of points (wedding the same as a funeral, for example, although a few on here would probably agree!)

I recently attended the funeral of a retired major of the Paras, who had also served as an officer in the TA. A number of retired military officers were there, including yours truly, a former Buccaneer wing commander and several others. Nobody wore uniform although there were a lot of regimental and RAF ties in evidence.

[ian16th]

HD
When I retired I was given to understand that senior officers (Sqn Ldr and above) and their equivalents in the other services could use their rank if they wished. Junior officers could do so, but only after obtaining permission. Presumably Captain Mark Philipps got the ok! I've never bothered and after 18 years I cringe if someone raises the subject - Mr seems fine to me, but sometimes it may be relevant to the job someone's doing, so horses for courses.

The cavalry regiments allow former Captains to use their ranks, if they are employment deals with horses.

This is NOT a joke!

[ExAscoteer]

HD
When I retired I was given to understand that senior officers (Sqn Ldr and above) and their equivalents in the other services could use their rank if they wished. Junior officers could do so, but only after obtaining permission.

Nope. It is the case that Flt Lts can use their rank as RAF Retd.

[cynicalint]

From Debretts:

Retired and Former Officers
Marshals of the Royal Air Force remain on the active list for life, and so continue to use this rank.
Other officers of the rank of squadron leader and above may use, and be addressed by, their rank after being placed on the retired list.
It is official practice for the Ministry of Defence to add the abbreviation ‘retd’ after a retired officer’s name, although this is not strictly necessary.

Not looked at QRs yet, but I think Debretts draw their information from there. Don't know if this applies to commissions resigned or not...

[Pontius Navigator]

HD
When I retired I was given to understand that senior officers (Sqn Ldr and above) and their equivalents in the other services could use their rank if they wished. Junior officers could do so, but only after obtaining permission.
A curiosity but I believe flt lt have the right whereas lt and capt don't.

A few years ago there was a letter in the DT by one NS near Grantham who used his rank when he retired decades earlier. The rank was probably relevant to the subject.

[Treble one]

My father retired from the RAFVR(T) and kept his substantive rank (it was gazetted so, I checked). he was allowed to wear his uniform on HM Queen's birthday, Battle of Britain day, and Remembrance Sunday.

At his funeral last week, his CO attended (serving ATC squadron CO-dad was a CI) along with two other ATC officers (Flt Lt and Sqd Ldr). I knew neither men personally, but I had contact with his former CO and had encouraged the wearing of Full No1 dress at the funeral (including medals), as my father wanted this.

It was extremely touching to have my fathers coffin (draped in the Union Flag with his Hat and gloves on top) saluted in by fellow officers of the 'branch' he had seved in as both a CI, NCO and Comissioned Officer for well over 30 years. Frankly if this was against the rules I'm sorry, but I think occasions like this far from bringing the ATC into any disrepute, do it the world of good.

For the record, the Wing Commander of the relevant wing was a former cadet of my dad on his squadron, and a junior officer on his squadron before climbing the ranks. He was unable to attend due to being on holiday but he was aware of ll of the plans, and had been in touch with me-I knew him too as I was squadron mascot at the time...

[Whenurhappy]

I see no problem with retired officers wearing their uniform at a Service Funeral. And who or what action would be taken against those who ‘break’ the rules?

[Training Risky]

Training Risky Frankly it doesn't bother me but I think your arguments are stretching a number of points (wedding the same as a funeral, for example, although a few on here would probably agree!)

I recently attended the funeral of a retired major of the Paras, who had also served as an officer in the TA. A number of retired military officers were there, including yours truly, a former Buccaneer wing commander and several others. Nobody wore uniform although there were a lot of regimental and RAF ties in evidence.

TTN - I fully agree I am reaching...but arguing the toss over the meaning of many a QR and JSP provided me with hours of amusement/misery over the years! Agreed this case doesn't bother me either: I would wear what 'felt right' in the circs.

(Was the former Bucc Wg Cdr a Hibernian IOT Cadet boss and AWC school boss per chance?)

[Top Bunk Tester]

No 5 Mess Dress (No 5 SD) – Male Officers, Warrant Officers and SNCOs

0231. Occasions for Wear.

It is reserved in the main as an evening or mess dress and is worn by commissioned officers, WOs and SNCOs at formal evening functions e.g. dining-in nights and guest nights. It may also be worn by retired officers, WOs and SNCOs and additionally, officers serving in the FTRS, RAFRO class CC, RAuxAF and RAFVR (T) on all occasions when this form of dress is appropriate for serving personnel.

Post retirement I used to wear my No 5s for the above type functions, until I was forced to retire it through a small sizing issue :bored: and now wear an evening suit.

[Pontius Navigator]

TR, huge deviation but,

I was fed up with Handbrake House referring to JSPs and Admin letters to which we common aircrew were not privy.

I found what I needed in QRs then went to HBH and asked for a copy of the relevant JSP. I got them to confirm there were no Admin letters pertaining. Then I struck.

I opened QRs at the relevant QR and got them to agree that my understanding was correct. Then the JSP which showed the fine detail. Result! Sepal when everyone assumed no entitlement. It turned out that periods back at base, including weekends, could count as Separation