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Kurabawa
19th Nov 2018, 06:08
Hi everyone,

I am stuck at a crossroad in life and I would appreciate some help or advice at this point of time.

A little history about me:
I applied for SQ back in April 2018 and got rejected at the preliminaries in May 2018. After that, I proceeded to apply for Scoot in May 2018 and got rejected at the Assessment Center in August 2018. After which, I went to get a non-aviation related job after getting my Degree in August 2018. After some considerations to getting a private CAAS CPL ME+IR with Frozen ATPL, I applied for L3 Airline Academy through Revion ground school. I am now waiting for my Class 1 medical before I sign the contract with Revion and L3 which my course begins in Jan 2019.

I have been to a pilot recruitment exhibition at Crowne Plaza recently and saw many jobless low hour pilots/cadets, some whom flown here specifically to attend the event. However, the event was recruiting for FOs and CAs mainly and many were left disappointed. After talking and getting to know some of them, it seems that there are too many low hour CPL holders and not enough jobs for them.

Current situation:
This is when it dawned on me that I have a high chance of being one of them after finishing my CAAS CPL course and now I have doubts enrolling in the program. I was hoping to re-apply for the SQ and Scoot cadet programs but I could only apply for Scoot in the next intake (Feb-Mar) onwards. As for SQ, it has been 6 months since my rejection but the application page when I log into my account, does not allow me to apply as it only shows that "You have applied on ##/May/2018". My friend, whom also got rejected in May 2018 at the aptitude test phase, faces the same problem as me.

The decision:
Should I,
A: Continue with my CAAS CPL in Jan 2019 and at the same time wait to apply for SQ and Scoot cadet program.

B: Postpone my CAAS CPL to Jul 2019 (Next intake) and wait to apply for SQ and Scoot cadet program.

C: Pull out from my CAAS CPL and solely focus on applying on cadet programs. (SQ, Scoot, Air Arabia, airBaltic, etc.)

I will be borrowing the amount of money for the CPL from my parents which they said are their retirement money.

I am wavering in committing to my CPL course now because of the amount of jobless CPL holders and I am unsure if in 2 years time when I complete it, would the situation be the same or will it be more beneficial.

I would appreciate any advice and reasoning. Thank you

Nomad2
19th Nov 2018, 06:45
Don't use your parents money. Borrow the money yourself, and if you can't, do something else.

You can always look at flying again when you are a bit older. This might not be the time for you, especially as you sound so conflicted.

Kurabawa
19th Nov 2018, 06:52
Don't use your parents money. Borrow the money yourself, and if you can't, do something else.

You can always look at flying again when you are a bit older. This might not be the time for you, especially as you sound so conflicted.

Hi Nomad, thanks for your input. I am not exactly young at this moment. I am 28 years old next year and if I start now, I would be almost 30 when I complete all the training. That is one of the issue that is rushing my decision to start now.

As for using my parent's money, I have looked up local banks and the loans they provide needs guarantors with ridiculous amount of annual income. The max loan amount was 8x the guarantor's salary and I am looking at a loan of minimum $150k SGD and that is like needing the guarantor to have $20k SGD monthly salary, which unfortunately, I don't know anyone who is in that salary range.

Saintsman
19th Nov 2018, 09:43
At your age, expecting your parents to cough up when they are thinking of retirement is a bit selfish IMO.

It is also worrying that you say there are lots of low airtime people without a job in front of you. If that is the case (when demand is supposed to high), I would consider something else.

It doesn't mean that you have to give up flying. Doing it for fun can be very rewarding.

JumpJumpJump
19th Nov 2018, 10:53
It appears that you are gainfully employed, which is great. If you can start paying your parents back from day 1 after issue of the CPL... Take the opportunity that they are offering you, sure, you'll .E behind some people that already have licences... But you'll be well ahead of those that don't! Do you already have a PPL and IR?

Ascend Charlie
19th Nov 2018, 11:08
What the heck is aviation doing in JetBlast?

I thought his last question was going to be something like "Should I give up my life as a sex slave to (insert name) or would my parents be dismayed at my wanting to be a pilot?"

Martin_123
19th Nov 2018, 12:26
I don't think you fully understand the competition involved when it comes to airline cadet programmes. Aerlingus had 3000 or so people fighting for just 12 spots, airbaltic had 450 for the same 12, I can only imagine SQ, Scoot and others have similar competition. Getting into one is like winning a lottery. If you are serious about aviation as a career, your main focus should be getting a licence and applying for the cadet schemes only as a side thing and not the other way around.

Also I feel like it needs to be reminded that your options are limited to countries/operators where you are legally allowed to work. If you have Singaporean citizenship and nothing else, you can forget about European/American/Arabian airlines and their cadet schemes

chuks
19th Nov 2018, 13:56
I would suggest studying something such as engineering if you have access to low-cost university courses of study. Here in Germany many young people, assuming they are qualified for it, are even going for a Master of Engineering degree although their ultimate goal might be a place with an airline.

The German job market has a shortage of mechanical engineers, and that is also the case in the States, I think, so that if you have a good engineering degree and English language ability then you would have a good shot at well-paid work if a long shot at aviation does not pan out.

One area where there does seem to be a real pilot shortage is in flight instruction, but that's highly regional. You might want to ask around about that, to see what the local market is like. Another option might be the military, but again, that's regional, plus then you often have to stay in for quite a few years at relatively low wages to serve out your term of service.

Where I was working in West Africa we would sometimes meet young, relatively low-time pilots who had come from abroad looking for work. The problem there was that Africa itself has enough low-time pilots, so that, ability aside, it was that you needed thousands of hours of time to find work as an expatriate.

Another thing is that while not everyone in aviation is a son-of-a-bitch, all of the sons-of-bitches are in aviation, and very many of them are managers. With such a person there is no question of giving a newbie some sort of break out of human compassion. The guy you meet got messed with on his way up, and his pay-off is that now he can mess with you. Another thing is that such people often seem to want the fellow they can not get, not miserable little you! 26 years old, PhD in quantum physics, command hours on the Space Shuttle, willing to work for $20 an hour on a Cessna 402B ... one can but dream, and many managers do.

Good luck anyway.

Even in your home market there's this sort of brutal calculus at work that wants you to have got past that beginner stage, when you are statistically high-risk. (If you are going to kill yourself and all aboard then you should do that before you get to whoever is going to hire you.) There's one peak in the accident stats at about four hundred hours, and another one at about fifteen hundred hours. The first one is due to lack of ability and experience, and the second one is due to overconfidence. After about two thousand hours you are relatively safe.

Loose rivets
19th Nov 2018, 23:52
Yet, one reads of 400,000 pilots needed in the near future. Hmmm, not sure about that, but the odds of getting something are better than the first time I was out of work. NO jobs in Flight magazine. Then there was one, in SA. Hmmm, again. The Rivetess would not have been allowed to live with me being about the same hue as Sir Cliff, and born in the same town. Gosh, that brings back some memories.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=mgfzW8u6E-ufgAa7643gCg&q=basil+d%27oliveira+south+africa&oq=south+africa+d%27oliv&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0i22i30j0i8i13i30.17157260.17166750..17171089...3.0.. 0.65.1133.22......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j0i131j0i10.lDy6_g44XPQ


I think you've got to really want to be an airline pilot. Really, really want. I didn't, I just loved aircraft and that doesn't come close to being a transport pilot. It's an odd sort of job. Quasi-military, and bewilderingly infected with S-O-B's. Mind you, I'm a little nieve about human interactions. You need to be born case-hardened to be a pilot.

To repeat myself:Then there's the harassed chief pilot. He storms into his office and glares at the deep pile of job applications. He picks up half of them and throws them into the bin.“The last thing I need is unlucky pilots!”

Anecdotal, it may be but more than a hint of truth.

Kurabawa
20th Nov 2018, 13:50
At your age, expecting your parents to cough up when they are thinking of retirement is a bit selfish IMO.

It is also worrying that you say there are lots of low airtime people without a job in front of you. If that is the case (when demand is supposed to high), I would consider something else.

It doesn't mean that you have to give up flying. Doing it for fun can be very rewarding.

I will definitely repay them back the money and not having them sponsor me fully. For me, being a commercial pilot is more than just flying. There is also the satisfaction being able to fly a plane carrying a few hundred people, etc. Thus I am not looking at RPL or PPL, only CPL.

Kurabawa
20th Nov 2018, 13:51
It appears that you are gainfully employed, which is great. If you can start paying your parents back from day 1 after issue of the CPL... Take the opportunity that they are offering you, sure, you'll .E behind some people that already have licences... But you'll be well ahead of those that don't! Do you already have a PPL and IR?

I do not have any license as of now. My tentative start date as a Whitetail cadet for CPL is in Jan 2019.
I am worrying about going the whitetail route due to the situation for low hour pilots now.

Kurabawa
20th Nov 2018, 13:52
What the heck is aviation doing in JetBlast?

I thought his last question was going to be something like "Should I give up my life as a sex slave to (insert name) or would my parents be dismayed at my wanting to be a pilot?"

My apologies as I do not know which sub-thread is the best fit for this.

Kurabawa
20th Nov 2018, 13:56
I don't think you fully understand the competition involved when it comes to airline cadet programmes. Aerlingus had 3000 or so people fighting for just 12 spots, airbaltic had 450 for the same 12, I can only imagine SQ, Scoot and others have similar competition. Getting into one is like winning a lottery. If you are serious about aviation as a career, your main focus should be getting a licence and applying for the cadet schemes only as a side thing and not the other way around.

Also I feel like it needs to be reminded that your options are limited to countries/operators where you are legally allowed to work. If you have Singaporean citizenship and nothing else, you can forget about European/American/Arabian airlines and their cadet schemes

Yes I fully understand the competition level for airlines cadet, thus I was thinking of applying to more cadet programs. I know that I am limited to a Singaporean citizenship and I have done my research on Air Arabia and airBaltic. These are the few airlines that accepts international cadets, and so I was thinking of applying there too.

I am serious about aviation as a career thus I applied for the Whitetail cadet program. However my worry now is that there are no other flying jobs available in Singapore and there are only 2 airlines in Singapore. So far I have only seen Cathay Pacific and VirginAir recruiting international SOs. So my choices of jobs when I finish my CPL is very very limited. So should I still go ahead and go for my Whitetail cadet program?

Kurabawa
20th Nov 2018, 13:59
I would suggest studying something such as engineering if you have access to low-cost university courses of study. Here in Germany many young people, assuming they are qualified for it, are even going for a Master of Engineering degree although their ultimate goal might be a place with an airline.

The German job market has a shortage of mechanical engineers, and that is also the case in the States, I think, so that if you have a good engineering degree and English language ability then you would have a good shot at well-paid work if a long shot at aviation does not pan out.

One area where there does seem to be a real pilot shortage is in flight instruction, but that's highly regional. You might want to ask around about that, to see what the local market is like. Another option might be the military, but again, that's regional, plus then you often have to stay in for quite a few years at relatively low wages to serve out your term of service.

Where I was working in West Africa we would sometimes meet young, relatively low-time pilots who had come from abroad looking for work. The problem there was that Africa itself has enough low-time pilots, so that, ability aside, it was that you needed thousands of hours of time to find work as an expatriate.

Another thing is that while not everyone in aviation is a son-of-a-bitch, all of the sons-of-bitches are in aviation, and very many of them are managers. With such a person there is no question of giving a newbie some sort of break out of human compassion. The guy you meet got messed with on his way up, and his pay-off is that now he can mess with you. Another thing is that such people often seem to want the fellow they can not get, not miserable little you! 26 years old, PhD in quantum physics, command hours on the Space Shuttle, willing to work for $20 an hour on a Cessna 402B ... one can but dream, and many managers do.

Good luck anyway.

Even in your home market there's this sort of brutal calculus at work that wants you to have got past that beginner stage, when you are statistically high-risk. (If you are going to kill yourself and all aboard then you should do that before you get to whoever is going to hire you.) There's one peak in the accident stats at about four hundred hours, and another one at about fifteen hundred hours. The first one is due to lack of ability and experience, and the second one is due to overconfidence. After about two thousand hours you are relatively safe.

Studying aviation or engineering is beyond as I do not have the time anymore. Thanks for the encouragement. It is the point from 200 hours to 2000 hours that all CPL holders are struggling at. Especially in my area where there is no sky diving, bush flying, flight instructor jobs..

flash8
20th Nov 2018, 14:09
So should I still go ahead and go for my Whitetail cadet program?Apparently they have an over 90% placement rate, couple that with increasing demand for pilots the next decade or so (esp. in Asia) I would say it is not a bad option at all - although I can't speak financially.

Chuks suggestion is good I think, why not do an undergrad degree (at somewhere like NUS if possible :) ) in Engineering and then apply... you will differentiate yourself considerably and it will certainly help future applications, after all it is only three years or so, at your age it certainly should be considered. It would also help later with the CPL theory exams of course... you could also combine studying with taking the PPL, going modular and taking CPL and IR after graduation, my point is there are a lot of combinations to reach your goals.. don't think immediate - think longer term!

EDITED:
Studying aviation or engineering is beyond as I do not have the time anymore. Can I ask why? Just saw this.

Kurabawa
20th Nov 2018, 14:41
Apparently they have an over 90% placement rate, couple that with increasing demand for pilots the next decade or so (esp. in Asia) I would say it is not a bad option at all - although I can't speak financially.

Chuks suggestion is good I think, why not do an undergrad degree (at somewhere like NUS if possible :) ) in Engineering and then apply... you will differentiate yourself considerably and it will certainly help future applications, after all it is only three years or so, at your age it certainly should be considered. It would also help later with the CPL theory exams of course... you could also combine studying with taking the PPL, going modular and taking CPL and IR after graduation, my point is there are a lot of combinations to reach your goals.. don't think immediate - think longer term!

EDITED:
Can I ask why? Just saw this.

Firstly, I have just completed my degree that is not in Engineering and it costed $20k SGD already. I do not have the funds to go for another degree.
Secondly, I am already 28, by the time I finish my second degree I would be 31. It would take me another 2 years to finish my license which makes me 33. Now at 33 years old I only have 200 hours so it is quite bad in getting a job?

Yeap there are definitely a lot of combinations to reach my goals and I have selected 3 options which I have no idea which route to proceed, thus I am posting this.