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Stationair8
16th Nov 2018, 20:46
The first RFDS PC24 is due in Perth this weekend.

Alice Kiwican
16th Nov 2018, 23:48
Be good to see it for real!👍

faction
17th Nov 2018, 01:51
The first one will arrive in Perth on December 3rd after touching down in Broome the day before.

machtuk
17th Nov 2018, 08:52
Was just speaking to a PC 24 driver today actually, it's rather slow, thought it might have been faster. Wil be interesting how it operates with the distances Australia has between major cities:-)

Capt Fathom
17th Nov 2018, 08:58
Was just speaking to a PC 24 driver today actually, it's rather slow, thought it might have been faster. Wil be interesting how it operates with the distances Australia has between major cities:-)

Are you comparing it with a PC12 or a Learjet?

DIBO
17th Nov 2018, 09:32
Compared to other a/c able to operate out of 2,930 feet (893 m) unpaved surfaces, (max) cruising at 440 ktas is pretty fast :)

machtuk
17th Nov 2018, 09:42
400kts typical, anything above that uses too much gas he says. The short RWY ability comes at a cost. High DA Alt's, terrain, surface type, gross weight etc extend considerably the T/Off dist. Short range when considering the size of Oz. Will be keen to find out real world figures not just the propaganda we read about, salesmen stuff:-)

harrryw
17th Nov 2018, 13:36
400kts typical, anything above that uses too much gas he says. The short RWY ability comes at a cost. High DA Alt's, terrain, surface type, gross weight etc extend considerably the T/Off dist. Short range when considering the size of Oz. Will be keen to find out real world figures not just the propaganda we read about, salesmen stuff:-)
They give the range at 2000nm at FL450 so more like 700nm each way maximum unless refueling is available.In WA it could be fairly limiting...They really do not want to have to stop on the way. Also it is often better to restrict altitude to keep the cabin altitude low so that could be a major problem though they do say Cabin AZlt of sea level at FL230. It is a beautiful looking plane though.

AbsoluteFokker
17th Nov 2018, 14:23
So which other jet do you see doing dirt/gravel in Australia? Seems pretty good to me.

VH-MLE
17th Nov 2018, 14:51
Personally, and while it might be approved for it, I cannot see it doing unsealed airstrips at all. It'd be more typically used for your "long haul" type flights i.e. Broome, Kununurra to Perth (as well as Cocos, Christmas Island - weather permitting). I think there'll still be plenty of demand for the PC12's for the foreseeable future...

machtuk
18th Nov 2018, 07:47
Personally, and while it might be approved for it, I cannot see it doing unsealed airstrips at all. It'd be more typically used for your "long haul" type flights i.e. Broome, Kununurra to Perth (as well as Cocos, Christmas Island - weather permitting). I think there'll still be plenty of demand for the PC12's for the foreseeable future...

Not too many remote dirt strips kept good enuf for this type of jet operation, a few but the list would be short. As mentioned SL cabin needed at times, a strong H/W component all means at times it's a very limited machine. Advantages would be the cargo door & it's ability under limiting certain conditions are it's main advantages.
Looked at applying for the gig when they where looking for drivers but there would be a few toes trodden on to get there, I don't do that.
The PC12 (B200 better) is the backbone of the Air Ambo Ops, the jet being added was a political thing to some degree, a must have at all costs !

601
18th Nov 2018, 08:14
I cannot see it doing unsealed airstrips at all.

Back in the 80s I operated C550s for 10 years into gravel, grass, dirt all over Qld and NSW and at an AFM reduced weight of 5700kg, We watched our fuel and pax loads and did a lot of re-calculating in flight.
Had a lot of problems with "operational control" and getting a signature on the Flight Plan at some briefing offices was difficult.
"what? you want to take a jet outside controlled airspace and into a grass strip, you can't do that" was a not an uncommon comment when flight planning.
Even landing at Archerfield for inspections was a problem initially.

I can see it being used
But having operated the C550, B200 and B350, I would have thought that the King Airs would still be more suitable.

Capt Fathom
18th Nov 2018, 08:32
Seems to be some negativity here by some posters!
The RFDS has been operating aircraft for a long time. Have they been seduced by the Pilatus marketing or are people just bagging the new type.
Only time will tell how successful it is.

lucille
18th Nov 2018, 08:41
That cargo door is a winner! Trumps every other negative - your back will thank you. Try squeezing a 200kg patient on a Lifeport stretcher through a L35/36, DA200 or C550 door - that will be your Eureka moment.

Its all too easy to find fault with range, speed, gravel strip capability and SL cabin limitations. There are heaps of aircraft which can do somethings better but none have that door.

VH-MLE
18th Nov 2018, 10:05
Personally, I'm not bagging it at all, I just don't see it being required for unsealed runway ops, but definitely see a (long overdue) need for it from larger regional locations which have more suitable aerodromes. Also, I'm pleased to see the organisation moving on from the current RFDS "jet operator" who some might say has milked the RFDS very well...

machtuk
18th Nov 2018, 21:47
Seems to be some negativity here by some posters!
The RFDS has been operating aircraft for a long time. Have they been seduced by the Pilatus marketing or are people just bagging the new type.
Only time will tell how successful it is.

They are called opinions!!

pithblot
18th Nov 2018, 22:36
Does the pilot need an ATPL?

mattyj
19th Nov 2018, 06:42
The pilot does have an ATPL

triadic
19th Nov 2018, 07:59
The media pictures to date don't seem to show a cargo door, which is mentioned above... has a cargo door being fitted?

mattyj
19th Nov 2018, 09:25
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/21e22f9f_6e9b_4c3c_ac21_9013de8adb29_e437b863dc5ca091b4cdc24 28e3fdaedfd3efd92.jpeg

This media picture does..

YendorB
22nd Nov 2018, 13:30
Anyone know the pay and conditions for this gig? Curious

Kulwin Park
22nd Nov 2018, 20:48
Anyone know the pay and conditions for this gig? Curious

It would be standard RFDS twin engine endorsed pay conditions, but the PC24 pilots will get an endorsement paid for them, plus an extra $20-30k on their pay packet for the specialist type I'm guessing.

aaandrogerthat
22nd Nov 2018, 20:59
Haha! Silly RFDS, they obviously didn't do their research thoroughly before committing to this aircraft. 10 minutes on pprune would have been time well spent and alerted them to all the flaws and limitiations of this plane. What were they thinking.... :-)

Squawk7700
23rd Nov 2018, 00:57
Haha! Silly RFDS, they obviously didn't do their research thoroughly before committing to this aircraft. 10 minutes on pprune would have been time well spent and alerted them to all the flaws and limitiations of this plane. What were they thinking.... :-)

You may laugh, however plenty of pilots on here either work for them or formerly did, so are fairly well informed in their operations.

Outtahere
23rd Nov 2018, 07:38
Anyone know the pay and conditions for this gig? Curious

Around $160K was what I was told for SA/NT. Standard PC12 salary plus T & C allowance.

VH-MLE
23rd Nov 2018, 10:14
Aaandrogerthat - you're a bit of a dick - sorry to say that, but what experience do you have to make that call?

Smalahove
23rd Nov 2018, 13:24
Aaandrogerthat - you're a bit of a dick - sorry to say that, but what experience do you have to make that call?

Zooooooooommmmm........

LeadSled
23rd Nov 2018, 22:11
Haha! Silly RFDS, they obviously didn't do their research thoroughly before committing to this aircraft. 10 minutes on pprune would have been time well spent and alerted them to all the flaws and limitiations of this plane. What were they thinking.... :-)

aaaaaaand---
Must be a lot of stupid people with money about, the original PC-24 order book for the first batch opened and closed in days, the same will happen when the order book is re-opened some time soon. With preferential customers fixed up, earliest delivery dates for a new customer of the company look like somewhere between 2021 and end 2022.
And, comparatively, this aircraft is expensive in it's class.
What other bizjet manufacturer has their capacity sold out, they are even closing Porter production to make a bit more room.
Tootle pip!!

josephfeatherweight
23rd Nov 2018, 22:17
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - nobody appears to understand sarcasm here when it jumps up and smacks them in the face.
MLE (and others) - I’ll spell it out for you - aaandrogerthat was being sarcastic/facetious...

LeadSled
24th Nov 2018, 07:02
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - nobody appears to understand sarcasm here when it jumps up and smacks them in the face.
MLE (and others) - I’ll spell it out for you - aaandrogerthat was being sarcastic/facetious...

josephetc,
He/she/it was?? Maybe he/she/it should be a little less subtle ---- as is very obvious, his extreme subtlety completely obscured hi/her/its sarcasm/facetiousness.
Tootle pip!!

Capt Fathom
24th Nov 2018, 08:56
I actually thought it was quite funny. VH-MLE missed it totally! Zooooooooommmmm......... indeed!
Beam me up Scotty!

VH-MLE
24th Nov 2018, 11:30
OK, I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I didn't (and still don't) see sarcasm/facetiousness in that post... Maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy...

topdrop
24th Nov 2018, 22:18
Little smiley at the end is a bit of a clue.

aaandrogerthat
27th Nov 2018, 18:26
Haha! Lighten up guys! The clue is right here.. "10 minutes on PPRuNe would have been time well spent and alerted them to all the flaws and limitiations of this plane"

The PC-12 was a game changer, and so is the PC-24. Incredible machine

I'll retreat into my burrow now, having been suitably chastised for my feeble attempt at SARCASM... :-)

Plazbot
27th Nov 2018, 18:42
Saw it today in Dubai. VHVWO.

DIBO
27th Nov 2018, 19:11
Found this nice photo @JetPhotos: VH-VWO just before its departure from Switzerland this morning, on its way to warmer climates...https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x739/68410_1543315016_f6a5b469e3bbac515fff6a005f4e2a2126265518.jp g

pilotchute
28th Nov 2018, 05:35
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x280/images_a8b1c88bbf30f8635c018590306a450f03d48801.jpeg
Seems getting a cargo door in a biz jet isn't that hard.

harrryw
28th Nov 2018, 07:22
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x280/images_a8b1c88bbf30f8635c018590306a450f03d48801.jpeg
Seems getting a cargo door in a biz jet isn't that hard.
Seems to be a lot of work.....they say that takes 12 weeks to do for a Citation.,

Captain Nomad
28th Nov 2018, 07:42
Not practical to have aeromedical stretcher loading equipment permanently mounted in that single-use front doorway either...

pilotchute
28th Nov 2018, 08:32
I bet the sticker price on a citation with similar performance would be considerably lower than a PC24. The Cargo door installation time isnt really a factor if you plan ahead.

I only say this as I'm sure RFDS aren't made of money and the savings on modified Citation could be spent elsewhere.

Just my opinion and I'm sure RFDS did the maths.

triadic
29th Nov 2018, 02:51
So where is the cargo door on that pic of VWO ? not the same as the pic in post #20. Is it to be done in Oz?

Capt Fathom
29th Nov 2018, 02:54
So where is the cargo door on that pic of VWO ?

You can see the door frame between the last cabin window and the left engine.

faction
29th Nov 2018, 07:42
http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/11/rfds-gets-first-pilatus-pc-24/

This article shows the cargo door and one of the configurations that the stretchers can be in.

machtuk
29th Nov 2018, 21:58
Rio Tinto have a big chunk invested in this machine, without their $$$$ this would not have happened!
Be interesting to see how it performs in the real world, not just on paper for feel good' commercial results:-)

mattyj
30th Nov 2018, 09:43
You could probably get a nice Nextant upgraded beechjet 400 like Careflight in Darwin has for about 4 mil. Same engines, better range, same speed, bigger cabin diameter, (not length) and very robust.

they don’t go into unprepared fields and they dont have beautiful cargo doors but

(if the Pilatus can actually do everything they promised)

machtuk
30th Nov 2018, 21:11
You could probably get a nice Nextant upgraded beechjet 400 like Careflight in Darwin has for about 4 mil. Same engines, better range, same speed, bigger cabin diameter, (not length) and very robust.

they don’t go into unprepared fields and they dont have beautiful cargo doors but

(if the Pilatus can actually do everything they promised)




I looked into one (Nextant) when I was at Careflight in DN recently, too small, over wing refueling, marginal door access in the Aeromed role, no APU & they don't have the range with a decent payload. Every A/C in the Aeromed role is a trade off. The PC's & B200/350's are great machines but they have their limitations (No APU, a huge disadvantage!) as does the Nextant & the Lear's, the latter LR45 has a lot going for it & is used extensively world wide in that role so personally is the pick of the bunch for most cases.

Allan L
2nd Dec 2018, 21:39
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-03/regional-patients-to-be-treated-in-emergency-ward-jets-in-sky/10574702

LeadSled
2nd Dec 2018, 21:53
Folks,
Many of you seem to forget that this company has a long history of building very rugged aircraft, remember the Porter and Turbo-Porter.
What makes some of you think it will not perform to specification, including unsealed runways, all their previous aircraft have a good service record.
Or do you have an inability to not knock something new.
Tootle pip!!

mattyj
3rd Dec 2018, 07:31
No one is doubting their ability to build undercarriage that can land on unprepared surfaces or build an excellent cargo door. The pics suggest they have achieved both these things. But the high speed and long range quoted are a bit dubious

Ex FSO GRIFFO
3rd Dec 2018, 09:22
Tonight's Ch 7 news.....one for JT, and one for BRM. (BME)

Cheers

Bend alot
3rd Dec 2018, 09:31
From Wiki - I guess they are just using data to obtain dubious speed figures. Was it on flight tracker for the ferry?

During EBACE 2016, it was commented that the program was on track and test flights had been free of surprises; during a transatlantic crossing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_crossing) to the US, P02 had achieved a cruise speed in excess of 800 km/hr (432 kt.), which was better than expected.

The three prototypes flew 2205 hours including icing conditions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icing_conditions) and very hot temperatures, outside its flight envelope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_envelope), bird strikes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike), structural stress tests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93strain_analysis) and noise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_noise) tests before it received EASA and FAA type certification on 7 December 2017. Its performance goals were met or exceeded, like its maximum speed raised from 425 to 440 knots (787 to 815 km/h).

FGD135
3rd Dec 2018, 14:12
Tonight's Ch 7 news.....one for JT, and one for BRM. (BME)
I don't understand why they would have one at Broome. The Broome basing would not be cheap.

I cannot see what advantages the Broome basing would bring. Surely, every single job that the Broome aircraft would do, could be done by a Perth/Jandakot aircraft - for the exact same response times.

Alice Kiwican
3rd Dec 2018, 19:36
How about an international task from Broome? I think you’ll find they won’t just be doing internal WA patient transfers. We shall see over the next 12 months I guess

FGD135
3rd Dec 2018, 23:22
How about an international task from Broome?Nah, still can't see it, Alice. All international jobs would be a secondary retrievals, meaning that response time is not critical. And if those patients were taken to Perth, then there definitely would be nothing gained at all.

Bend alot
3rd Dec 2018, 23:32
Broome to the Rio Tinto mines faster?

Does the fog still hit Jandakot hard?

They have a base in Broome, so I guess it has advantages.

FGD135
4th Dec 2018, 00:41
Broome to the Rio Tinto mines faster?If that was the logic, it would be based at Port Hedland.

They have a base in Broome, so I guess it has advantages.Some minor advantages, sure, but now must provide another 4 or so houses for the jet pilots. Not cheap.

Bend alot
4th Dec 2018, 01:02
4 houses in Port Headland would get you 5 in Broome for the same $'s or less.
You would have a better chance attracting and retaining staff at Broome than the Port.

FGD135
4th Dec 2018, 01:11
You would have a better chance attracting and retaining staff at Broome than the Port.Probably true, but still much more expensive than basing it in Perth.

Bend alot
4th Dec 2018, 01:53
When I worked for the RFDS WA Section many moons ago, I think we had 4 or 5 bases other than Jandakot. Of the 5 they have now only Meka and the Port are the same. Some of the others were covered by the Goldfields section and pretty sure Broome came under the Victorian section back then.

So for much of the RFDS operational history shows they operate from bases - so when a new type is implemented, I don't see why the operation now should operate from a single base when using multiple bases has proved effective.

Captain Nomad
4th Dec 2018, 02:10
Maybe not all patients in the Pilbara/Kimberley get transferred to Perth? There must be a reason why a base was recently created at Broome...

non_state_actor
4th Dec 2018, 02:27
4 houses in Port Headland would get you 5 in Broome for the same $'s or less. You would have a better chance attracting and retaining staff at Broome than the Port.

You also have to include medical staff into this equation. Whilst pilots will go and live anywhere if you show them photos of a flash jet, you can have a reasonable amount of difficulty finding Emergency Medicine Specialists to go and live in remote towns. Broome would be much easier to attract medical staff than just about any other town in the region. It also has much better airline connections.

Awol57
4th Dec 2018, 04:26
I don't work for the RFDS but I do know a few pilots based in Hedland and Broome (and Derby when that was the base) that do occasionally go to Darwin rather than Perth. Not sure who makes that decision but it can certainly happen. Having been based in Karratha, I would rather have the jet take an hour and a bit from Broome than 2 hours up from Jandakot if I was waiting for it. But that's just me.

hawk_eye
4th Dec 2018, 08:33
And isn’t the last post the whole point - if you need an RFDS aircraft anywhere north of a line YPLM - YBAS, surely the jet would be better off coming from Broome rather than Jandakot.

I guess a similar sort of scenario would be the Challenger jets that Cobham operate for AMSA - they are spaced all around the country (Cairns, Essendon, Perth), which allows optimal coverage of the entire country. I would imagine this is the same logic the RFDS looked at for basing these jets in both Perth and Broome.

Also worth consideration is that the jet being based in Broome would also alow the RFDS to possibly cover Christmas and Cocos Islands direct.

Cheers

Bend alot
4th Dec 2018, 11:07
And isn’t the last post the whole point - if you need an RFDS aircraft anywhere north of a line YPLM - YBAS, surely the jet would be better off coming from Broome rather than Jandakot.

I guess a similar sort of scenario would be the Challenger jets that Cobham operate for AMSA - they are spaced all around the country (Cairns, Essendon, Perth), which allows optimal coverage of the entire country. I would imagine this is the same logic the RFDS looked at for basing these jets in both Perth and Broome.

Also worth consideration is that the jet being based in Broome would also alow the RFDS to possibly cover Christmas and Cocos Islands direct.

Cheers
Oh yes I recall the installation of the Omega systems for that. And the talk of shutting down an engine to buy time if needed.

FGD135
4th Dec 2018, 23:41
... if you need an RFDS aircraft anywhere north of a line YPLM - YBAS, surely the jet would be better off coming from Broome rather than Jandakot.
It doesn't work that way.

If you have an accident somewhere other than one of the major centres (Broome, Derby, Wyndham or Kununurra) then it won't be the jet coming to get you. It will be the PC-12. If you then need to go to Perth or Darwin the PC-12 will fly you to one of the major centres, from where you will be transferred to the jet.

It takes hours for that PC-12 transfer to complete. During that time, the jet can be making its way up from Perth. In the end, it will have taken exactly the same amount of time to get you to your final destination. And if you had your accident in one of those major centres, you wouldn't be immediately transferred, anyway. You would go into the hospital at that centre for stabilisation - again taking hours.

If all the communities had airstrips that could take the jet, then it would be a different story. It appears only Balgo Hill has a strip capable of taking the jet - assuming the RFDS are intending to operate on gravel.

What about Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing? Both are sealed and are jet capable, but again, both of these places have their own hospitals. And the runways at these two places are a little on the short side, so jet operations may not be possible all year round. This also applies to Balgo Hill (the combination of high elevation and gravel would put the required takeoff distance outside of this jet's capabilities during the hot months, I imagine).

... cover Christmas and Cocos Islands direct.Christmas probably, Cocos definitely not.

So, what is the advantage of basing the jet in Broome? What is the medical scenario that requires the jet speeds?

LeadSled
5th Dec 2018, 01:59
Folks,
Maybe the name on the side of the first PC 24 is of significance.
I don't know much about RFDS WA financing, apart from being a regular small contributor in NSW Region, but I assume Rio is contributing.
What I do know is that many mining businesses in NW WA have requirements for the availability of 24/7 evacuation services, with a contracted minimum response time, which precluded Perth based crews and aircraft.
Tootle pip!!

Bend alot
5th Dec 2018, 02:20
Post #55 LeadSled!

I recall seeing Rio in for $2,000,000 on the jet. That will be on top of the normal donations they give the RFDS yearly - I assume.

The government think it was Federal use to match RFDS donations $ for $.

Squawk7700
5th Dec 2018, 03:03
Rio donated $10,000,000 to the overall fund to assist with the purchase of the PC24’s.

Capn Bloggs
5th Dec 2018, 03:09
Just saw it go over. Wings bent back a bit, unlike those near-jets... :ok:

Bend alot
5th Dec 2018, 03:09
Cheers Squark7700

harrryw
5th Dec 2018, 05:16
Oh yes I recall the installation of the Omega systems for that. And the talk of shutting down an engine to buy time if needed.
I thought omega was shut down years ago.

harrryw
5th Dec 2018, 05:27
It doesn't work that way.

If you have an accident somewhere other than one of the major centres (Broome, Derby, Wyndham or Kununurra) then it won't be the jet coming to get you. It will be the PC-12. If you then need to go to Perth or Darwin the PC-12 will fly you to one of the major centres, from where you will be transferred to the jet.

It takes hours for that PC-12 transfer to complete. During that time, the jet can be making its way up from Perth. In the end, it will have taken exactly the same amount of time to get you to your final destination. And if you had your accident in one of those major centres, you wouldn't be immediately transferred, anyway. You would go into the hospital at that centre for stabilisation - again taking hours.

If all the communities had airstrips that could take the jet, then it would be a different story. It appears only Balgo Hill has a strip capable of taking the jet - assuming the RFDS are intending to operate on gravel.

What about Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing? Both are sealed and are jet capable, but again, both of these places have their own hospitals. And the runways at these two places are a little on the short side, so jet operations may not be possible all year round. This also applies to Balgo Hill (the combination of high elevation and gravel would put the required takeoff distance outside of this jet's capabilities during the hot months, I imagine).

Christmas probably, Cocos definitely not.

So, what is the advantage of basing the jet in Broome? What is the medical scenario that requires the jet speeds?
I think you will find that the hospitals at Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek could be best describes as Clinics with acommodation. They do not have the facilities for major operations or severe intensive care.

Bend alot
5th Dec 2018, 06:28
I thought omega was shut down years ago.

The RFDS WA installed Omega into the C441's to "find" Christmas and Cocos Islands in the mid 80's.

I expect that Omega lasted up until GPS was an option and not to many days after.

Bend alot
5th Dec 2018, 06:50
Last time I was at Halls Creek no auto fuels and was told the tanker will be a few days, many cars were parked up already.

Managed to get a tank of Avgas without to much getting on the tarmac - cost of Avgas (at Halls Creek), the call out, the payment surcharge and Admin fee. Made for the most expensive car fuel I have ever brought.

Got a warning not to tell others on the way out.

Fitzroy Crossing a rung or two below Hall's Creek.

Clinics with accommodation and caring staff, supplied with no tools (or fuel for the genset)

FGD135
5th Dec 2018, 23:43
What I do know is that many mining businesses in NW WA have requirements for the availability of 24/7 evacuation services, with a contracted minimum response time, which precluded Perth based crews and aircraft.You're talking about the Karratha-based Aspen Medical contract, which operate Citations. You're not talking about the RFDS. The only way a contract can have "minimum response times" is if the aircraft is dedicated to that particular contract, which is the case for this contract between Aspen and Chevron, Woodside, Santos, Shell, and a few others.

The RFDS aircraft are all available for "public" health use. Contracting a "minimum response time" in this case would be meaningless as the aircraft and crews may be tied up for days doing the "public" work. Irrespective of how much money Rio Tinto may have kicked in, I think you will find there is no such contracted "minimum response times" involving the Pilbara mines. How could such a contractual requirement be worded?

Those Pilbara minesites, by the way, are indeed closer to Broome than Perth, but by only about 35 minutes. Any special deal between the RFDS and Rio Tinto would be about the medical response, not whether the aircraft is jet powered. The quickest way to the Pilbara is via the 35 minute PC-12 from Port Hedland, or the 50 minute PC-12 from Meekatharra. The PC-24 from Broome would take about 55 minutes (90 minutes from Perth).

And taking the RFDS rostering and base-standby practices into account, it may be the Perth jet quickest on the scene, anyway. This is because for a large part of the day, some Perth pilots are at the airport, on standby, whereas for the remote bases they are at home and have 30-60 mins (?) to get to the airport.

The "Rio Tinto minesites minimum response times" theory just doesn't add up.

So, what is the point of the Broome basing? What can be achieved other than a bigger medical bill for the taxpayer?

Clinics with accommodation and caring staff, supplied with no tools (or fuel for the genset)Going to some lengths to make Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing sound like backwater communities there, Bend alot. The reality is that those places have substantial hospitals, each with more than a dozen doctors. There is also a St John's Ambulance service in both towns. Any injuries, accidents or illnesses would first go to those hospitals for stabilisation.

Bend alot
6th Dec 2018, 00:42
“Last year alone (2016), the RFDS flew over 1,100 patients to and from Broome, making it the busiest transport hub in the north of the state.

“20 ongoing jobs have been created to operate the base as a result of the project employing seven pilots, seven nurses, five doctors and a base administrator."


With (then) 7 pilots, I would expect that they actually have a start time to be at work and aircraft ready to go - but that's just a guess on my part.

Now what the RFDS are reported to say is :-

These jets will be capable of short landings and take offs on dirt and unsealed airstrips which is essential to emergency evacuations in many parts of Western Australia, including the Kimberley.

Additionally, with a greater internal space to accommodate three patients and quicker travel time, the PC24 will enable faster response times, increased capacity for carrying and treating multiple patients, and substantial operating efficiency gains.

So a point of the Broome basing (of a jet) is that it is the busiest base in the north of WA, it has an increased capacity 3 stretchers and will get to the patient faster.

https://thewest.com.au/news/regional/plane-a-boost-for-rfds-ng-b88949509z

machtuk
6th Dec 2018, 02:19
It doesn't work that way.

If you have an accident somewhere other than one of the major centres (Broome, Derby, Wyndham or Kununurra) then it won't be the jet coming to get you. It will be the PC-12. If you then need to go to Perth or Darwin the PC-12 will fly you to one of the major centres, from where you will be transferred to the jet.

It takes hours for that PC-12 transfer to complete. During that time, the jet can be making its way up from Perth. In the end, it will have taken exactly the same amount of time to get you to your final destination. And if you had your accident in one of those major centres, you wouldn't be immediately transferred, anyway. You would go into the hospital at that centre for stabilisation - again taking hours.

If all the communities had airstrips that could take the jet, then it would be a different story. It appears only Balgo Hill has a strip capable of taking the jet - assuming the RFDS are intending to operate on gravel.

What about Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing? Both are sealed and are jet capable, but again, both of these places have their own hospitals. And the runways at these two places are a little on the short side, so jet operations may not be possible all year round. This also applies to Balgo Hill (the combination of high elevation and gravel would put the required takeoff distance outside of this jet's capabilities during the hot months, I imagine).

Christmas probably, Cocos definitely not.

So, what is the advantage of basing the jet in Broome? What is the medical scenario that requires the jet speeds?

Well said FGD, most have no idea how it all works. Most accident cases that require evac are pre prepped so the jet would only be used when it's beneficial time wise, actually available & convenient, other than that it wont be doing much in the way of work to remote dirt strips as there are too many limitations. The 12's will still do the majority of the work, the Jet is a political thing as well but that's a whole other story!

Bend alot
6th Dec 2018, 05:00
We assume the RFDS may have used experience of using this jet (below) to base their decision on to put a jet in Broome.

evacuating 867 patients, the majority (73.9 per cent) from the more distant Kimberley and Pilbara regions.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa/rio-tinto-backs-royal-flyding-doctor-service-medical-jet-ng-53cf0c1e874d386849b5776943ea17b3

mactuk - FGD was assuming that the Broome base is an "on call", it seems with those staff numbers it might not be. While I will agree the new jet will be used selectively on a selected few unsealed runways, I don't agree it will only be used when beneficial time wise or convenient and it would be hard to use it when "unavailable".

With the introduction of the C441 (first turbine) into the WA fleet it was used if it could do the job, however during my time there they were only based in Jandakot - I don't know if that changed.

They will have a formula/policy for using the jet and several things need to be taken into account including number of patients and where the patients need to be taken.

It will be interesting to find out if the Perth Based or the Broome base jet is utilised more, on the above numbers I would put Broome as the favourite.

compressor stall
6th Dec 2018, 06:34
Unless times have changed since my time there, the percentage of critical must get to Perth asap / Med 1 is small.

With the centralisation of medical care in Perth (due to cost of machines that go bing) and the dearth of specialists in regional centres, all and sundry ended up in Perth. For a Kimberley based PC12, that means that the aircraft and crew probably can't make it back home at the end of the shift, meaning that the Meeka / Headland crew need to cover the Kimberley on the next shift....and the snowball gets bigger.

By fetching the patients from kickatinalong and blackstumpalong in the PC12, and bringing them to Broome, then the PC24 Broome crew can nip down to Perth and back and the BRM PC12 crew will be home in time for an early dinner. And of course it has the gravel approval for those times when needed when direct PH is preferable from kickatinalong.

LeadSled
6th Dec 2018, 06:41
You're talking about the Karratha-based Aspen Medical contract, which operate Citations. You're not talking about the RFDS. .

FGD 135,
That is what I had in mind, as I made clear (or so I thought), I really had no knowledge of the details of the RFDS actual financial setup, I also thought it was clear that my two bob's worth was speculative.
Tootle pip!!

Bend alot
6th Dec 2018, 06:59
Broome to a Kimberly/Pilbara location - on to Darwin for a MED 1 is an option I would be happy with.

Darwin Hospital saved my bacon a couple of times - Perth may have had different outcomes in both my cases.

FGD135
7th Dec 2018, 00:17
So a point of the Broome basing (of a jet) is that it is the busiest base in the north of WA, it has an increased capacity 3 stretchers and will get to the patient faster.

Bend alot, I thank you for your exhaustive efforts to answer my question, but I suspect you are answering a slightly different question to what I have asked (see my post #52). My question is:

Why the Broome basing when everything the Broome-based jet can do could be done by a Perth/Jandakot based jet with exactly the same time frames?

These jets will be capable of short landings and take offs on dirt and unsealed airstrips which is essential to emergency evacuations in many parts of Western Australia, including the Kimberley.Watch out for the RFDS PR spin. Notice they always say the jets "are capable of ... dirt and unsealed", but never actually say that they will be operating on dirt/unsealed. The "emergency evacuations" line could also just be the PR machine.

Let's take a look at exactly which "dirt" strips they will be conducting "emergency evacuations" from. Firstly, keep in mind that an "emergency evacuation" can only be done from one of the places that is not a major centre. This is because the major centres all have hospitals. Any emergency will first go to a hospital for stabilisation. That will usually take several hours. Once the patient is in hospital, it is no longer an emergency.

The major centres are Broome, Derby, Kununurra, Wyndham, Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. Almost the only places that can take the jet.

Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?

Balgo Hill. To my understanding of that part of the world, this is the only strip that is long enough (and wide enough). But, it has an elevation of over 1,000' and is gravel. The combination of gravel and high elevation would make for a takeoff performance requirement that is outside the capability of this jet for probably half the year, I believe.

So, with the possible exception of Balgo Hill, all the dirt/unsealed emergency work will continue to be done by the PC-12. It will take the turboprop several hours to get these patients to a major centre, from where they could be transferred onto the jet for carriage to Perth or Darwin.

But, having transferred the patient to a major centre, do they now go into the hospital there, or onto the jet? Most will go to the hospital.

In the time taken to get the patient to the major centre, the jet could have been making its way up from Perth/Jandakot. So why all the expense of the Broome basing when the same result could be achieved with the Perth basing? Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year. As a taxpayer paying for about 80% of the RFDS, I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.

machtuk
7th Dec 2018, 00:40
Bend alot, I thank you for your exhaustive efforts to answer my question, but I suspect you are answering a slightly different question to what I have asked (see my post #52). My question is:

Why the Broome basing when everything the Broome-based jet can do could be done by a Perth/Jandakot based jet with exactly the same time frames?

Watch out for the RFDS PR spin. Notice they always say the jets "are capable of ... dirt and unsealed", but never actually say that they will be operating on dirt/unsealed. The "emergency evacuations" line could also just be the PR machine.

Let's take a look at exactly which "dirt" strips they will be conducting "emergency evacuations" from. Firstly, keep in mind that an "emergency evacuation" can only be done from one of the places that is not a major centre. This is because the major centres all have hospitals. Any emergency will first go to a hospital for stabilisation. That will usually take several hours. Once the patient is in hospital, it is no longer an emergency.

The major centres are Broome, Derby, Kununurra, Wyndham, Fitzroy Crossing and Halls Creek. Almost the only places that can take the jet.

Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?

Balgo Hill. To my understanding of that part of the world, this is the only strip that is long enough (and wide enough). But, it has an elevation of over 1,000' and is gravel. The combination of gravel and high elevation would make for a takeoff performance requirement that is outside the capability of this jet for probably half the year, I believe.

So, with the possible exception of Balgo Hill, all the dirt/unsealed emergency work will continue to be done by the PC-12. It will take the turboprop several hours to get these patients to a major centre, from where they could be transferred onto the jet for carriage to Perth or Darwin.

But, having transferred the patient to a major centre, do they now go into the hospital there, or onto the jet? Most will go to the hospital.

In the time taken to get the patient to the major centre, the jet could have been making its way up from Perth/Jandakot. So why all the expense of the Broome basing when the same result could be achieved with the Perth basing? Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year. As a taxpayer paying for about 80% of the RFDS, I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.

...............….yet another excellent post there FGD:-) Again most wont understand the logistics of this sort of operation, the RFDS PR spin is in overtime! The risk of operating this jet out of dirt strips would be high, anyone consider the wildlife that inhabits these grounds? One Roo could mean an expensive recovery operation & not to mention the weather, get caught at one of these dirt strips & it rains cats & dogs, might as well take a shovel to it & bury it! All the feel good figures from a salesmen POV is from nice Rwy's in ideal ISA conditions:-) Used properly should be a good asset but doubt it will be doing too many of the propaganda runs:-)
Personally I only see the jet doing the long trips from major based dromes with better facilities also being supported by hospitals.

Icarus2001
7th Dec 2018, 01:39
So which other jet do you see doing dirt/gravel in Australia? Seems pretty good to me.

Cobham operate their Bae146 jets on gravel all over the goldfields in WA.

Bend alot
7th Dec 2018, 01:43
Things must have changed!

I do not recall that categories but -

* The highest was depart now - I recall a case of this for a guy that his tent burnt down on him. But was very rare.
* Most common (after clinic runs) was communicate with the hospital/clinic and WAIT until word is given that the patient was stable, this was often car accidents. In many cases that case was many hours even days or cancelled.

Now if both jets wait to hear the patient is critical "but stable" before they depart who would provide care faster to say Derby?

Or will the Perth jet depart and wait 3 days at Derby for the patient to become stable or die? Then 4 crew stay an extra day as pilot duty time has been exceeded while on standby.

Bend alot
7th Dec 2018, 02:19
Which other places can take the jet, and don't have hospitals?


.

Argyle Airport is longer than the required 2930 ft (is 7546 ft) is asphalt (sealed)

The 520 man camp 185 km (by road) from nearest settlement has no hospital.

What would be the flight time from Broome to this Rio Tinto mine in a PC24?

* Edit to add Barrow Island and Telfer, Marble Bar also.

And not hard to put a few of these around the place say near roadhouses.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/the-highways-masquerading-as-secret-military-airfields/news-story/adccbeb1ed6ab0d4ce20ac92bce72d20

Bend alot
7th Dec 2018, 07:39
If Western Australia has similar to this:-

https://www.aci.health.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/162634/Burns-Transfer-Guidelines.pdf

Then burns patients are a time critical patient even in a major centre and require transfer to one of Australia's 13 burns units.

Stabilisation is checking for inhale burns (ex-ray) and you jump the que for this, followed by pain relief - shock takes long to settle in . Get to the burns unit ASAP.

Perth has two burns units and Darwin has one. I am sure Perth's are fine but I know Darwin's is great (Thanks Allison)

So for every time critical burns case, in North Western Australia a PC24 based in Broome is a good medical case for the jet to be based there.

I expect my early recollection of the guy burnt in the tent and "Go Now" was based on a similar policy to the NSW link supplied.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnenw0c42d0khsa/CCF23032008_00005.jpg?dl=0

Lucky was a t shirt day.

FGD135
10th Dec 2018, 01:10
Argyle Airport is longer than the required 2930 ft (is 7546 ft) is asphalt (sealed)I'll pay that, but how many Perth/Darwin evacuations per year would come from that mine? Maybe one.

The burns cases would still have to initially go into the local hospital, or be evacuated by the PC-12, so the total time to get the patient to Perth or Darwin would still be about the same.

Bend alot
10th Dec 2018, 09:17
I'll pay that, but how many Perth/Darwin evacuations per year would come from that mine? Maybe one.

The burns cases would still have to initially go into the local hospital, or be evacuated by the PC-12, so the total time to get the patient to Perth or Darwin would still be about the same.


I don't know but we do know the jet has been used in the north +70% of the use it has had to date.

Generally even when all crew are at a base (Jandakot or Broome) the time to be airborne is not a few minutes but from memory an hour or more. It is flight plans, fuels, and medical requirements and I assume that is patient details as may be relevant - maybe a blood type to sort or confirm. But it takes a bit of time.

** I expect an evac from such a mine to be small until it is big and front page.

So again it is the closest jet that will have the fastest response time.

For burns it seems a GO Now, that then would be the jet to any airport/town/strip that can accept it (not a PC12), but if a jet can not be first responder then yes a feeder PC12 would need to be used and a transfer to a jet considered. That will depend a lot on location and flight times and patient transfer time on ground and risk.

Did you not buy Barrow Island and Marble Bar? The town did swell during the races 10 fold.

thepistonbandit
14th Dec 2018, 13:00
I think it pretty funny that the RFDS is making such a big deal about this jet and carrying on as if they haven't had a jet at their disposal ever. A quick google search of VH-RIO will show a Hawker 800, thats been operated on behalf of the RFDS by a private company for the best part of a decade, mainly doing runs throughout WA and even interstate transfers. By good authority, the PC-24 wont have the same coverage. The Hawker seems to be a better machine other than the loading, but the pilots do the majority of the grunt work in most cases.

So time will see how the new machine stacks up .... As for the Christmas and Cocos run ... FORGET IT!

So quickly the RFDS seem to forget what they have had and think this new machine will be the answer to their prayers, time will see .... The RFDS isn't the well oiled machine that it makes itself out to be.

Towering Q
14th Dec 2018, 21:50
Watch out for the RFDS PR spin

I am interested in the new ways they are finding to waste my money.

FGD135....is it just me, or are you a little 'anti' RFDS?

Those extra 5-6 Broome houses and allowances would surely add up to near a million dollars per year.

Broome is the largest base outside of JT. Operationally, they actually provide more shifts than JT.

It is a modern, well equipped base, with the staff and infrastructure already in place.

As CS mentioned previously, the idea is for PC12's to feed Kimberley patients into Broome, with the PC24 ready to fly through to JT.
The current situation, with Meeka or Newman meets with southern crews is time consuming and inefficient. With these 'meets' often being cancelled, due to higher priority tasking elsewhere, the crews get stuck in Perth.
This causes a lack of resources in the north, and an accommodation expense for the crew.

The PC24 idea is great in principle, (in Broome and Jandakot), only time will tell whether it is a success or not.

LeadSled
14th Dec 2018, 22:56
These jets will be capable of short landings and -----

Folks,
I note that all jets, indeed all aircraft, not just the PC-24, are capable of a short landing.
Don't ya just love PR.
Tootle pip!!

machtuk
14th Dec 2018, 23:25
You can land a Jumbo jet on a heli pad.....once:-) PR has it's place, it's their to get extra funding & it works:-)
I look Fwd to seeing the 24 around the traps for a sticky beak inside & of course hearing about the 24 in operation, all those dirt strips with wild life just waiting to play chicken with the jets:-)
Should make for some interesting reading this thread in the future:-)

Bend alot
15th Dec 2018, 00:23
They do not need to be dirt strips for wild life the RFDS WA section lost 4 Garret TPE 331 engines in around a week on 3 aircraft. 2 were wildlife on 2 separate sealed strips. The other was a dirt strip at Cotton Creek in the Little Sandy Desert, the pilot was off the runway turning around (after rain) when the nose started to get bogged. Application of "much" more power gave the sensation of forward movement until the nose leg collapsed. This as you would be aware created a double propeller strike even ripping one gear box apart - now if this was say the jet, how many engines would need to be changed?

The same for the other 2 aircraft that hit wildlife, it is the propeller that caused the costly repairs.

FGD135
15th Dec 2018, 05:26
As CS mentioned previously, the idea is for PC12's to feed Kimberley patients into Broome, with the PC24 ready to fly through to JT.
And the PC24 and crew has to be tied up at Broome waiting 3-5 hours for the patient to arrive? Why not spend those hours on getting the PC24 mobilised and up to Broome?

The Perth/Jandakot based PC24 would have completed this job 2.5 hours before the Broome-based aircraft. How is this efficient? And good value for that extra million dollars of taxpayers funding?

Towering Q
15th Dec 2018, 06:04
And the PC24 and crew has to be tied up at Broome waiting 3-5 hours for the patient to arrive?

No, the crew are tasked with enough time to preflight, plan and load. All regional crews are on standby at home, there is no need to be tied up for 3-5 hours.

FGD135
15th Dec 2018, 06:58
No, the crew are tasked with enough time to preflight, plan and load. All regional crews are on standby at home, there is no need to be tied up for 3-5 hours.You're referring to pilot duty time. I wasn't. I was referring to the fact that, even though the Broome crew may not yet have been tasked, they and the aircraft have been allocated to the job. Those resources are thus tied up - thus somewhat defeating the purpose of having the jet.

That 3-5 hour preliminary tie up does not happen when the aircraft comes from Perth/Jandakot.

Towering Q
15th Dec 2018, 07:35
Am I missing something here?
Scenario...sick and injured need to be conveyed by PC24 from Broome to Perth. If jet leaves from JT, dead-leg is on the way up. If jet leaves from Broome, dead-leg is on the way home. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...

FGD135
15th Dec 2018, 10:58
Six of one, half a dozen of the other...Yes, you are missing something. You shouldn't be, because I have gone over it several times - see my post #65.

Again:

If a patient has to get from a non-major centre in the Kimberley to Perth, they will first have to be retrieved by the PC-12, then taken to a major centre from where the jet can operate. The time taken to get them to Perth will end up being about the same, irrespective of where the jet is based. This is the patient's point of view.

If the patient has to come from one of the major centres, then the time frame is not usually critical, as, in this case, the flight is merely a hospital-to-hospital transfer - not an "emergency evacuation".

So, what are the key differences between the Jandakot and Broome basing, given that the patient sees no change in the time taken to get him to his hospital?

1. The time to do a transfer is 2.5 hours longer when the jet is based in Broome (the idea of jets is to save time);
2. The taxpayer shells out a million dollars more, per year, to have a jet in Broome.

Bend alot
15th Dec 2018, 22:47
FDG135 - 3, except for 3 persons in the car roll over out of Derby that caught fire!

There are numerous cases and places where the jet base in Broome can be justified for even an extra $1M a year.

You do not want to except any of them, but I dare say if you had family up that way your position may change.

People up that way also pay tax and much of WA's revenue comes from royalties.

WA total tax 2017/18 - $8,466.3 (million) with 38.1% being payroll tax.
WA total royalties 2017/18 - $5,132.3 (million) and 88.2% being iron ore.

Remember Turia Pitt & Kate Sanderson.

"Royal Flying Doctors spokeswoman Joanne Hill said the two were flown to Darwin because the trip to Perth was too long.

"Ideally the two would have gone to Perth but we needed to stabilise them," she said"

The Daily Telegraph - can not post links

machtuk
15th Dec 2018, 23:23
They do not need to be dirt strips for wild life the RFDS WA section lost 4 Garret TPE 331 engines in around a week on 3 aircraft. 2 were wildlife on 2 separate sealed strips. The other was a dirt strip at Cotton Creek in the Little Sandy Desert, the pilot was off the runway turning around (after rain) when the nose started to get bogged. Application of "much" more power gave the sensation of forward movement until the nose leg collapsed. This as you would be aware created a double propeller strike even ripping one gear box apart - now if this was say the jet, how many engines would need to be changed?

The same for the other 2 aircraft that hit wildlife, it is the propeller that caused the costly repairs.

You miss a lot of the points here. The risks are higher at strips that have less infrastructure around them as animals hunt for food in open spaces especially around unimproved runways. Wild life doesn't have to hit the props to U/S a plane! Take out a single aerial under the belly deforming the skin & an inspection.
would be needed, the jet would be grounded! Not too sure what jet/s you fly but jets are very sensitive to impact damage of any kind!

morno
16th Dec 2018, 00:06
Several years of RFDS flying in various types of bases, conducting all different types of work from clinics to routine hospital transfers, to dragging people out of crashed aeroplanes, I sit here banging my head against the wall reading your posts FGD, :ugh:

There’s a lot more to RFDS work than merely sitting around waiting for a job allocated several hours before. Everything is on a priority basis. If a higher priority job comes in, they do that job. The aircraft and crew are not ‘tied up’.

I think allocating a jet to Broome and a jet to Jandakot is the perfect way to utilise it.

What is the operating cost of the PC-24 compared to the PC-12?

As someone else alluded to, you seem very anti RFDS. Cost should not be a factor when public health is the priority.

Bend alot
16th Dec 2018, 00:14
machtuk - I don't fly them only fix them.

Partly agree about higher risks at strips with less infrastructure around them, but interesting is RAAF Base Tindal where Pearl Aviation had to cancel aeromedical operations (B200) due to wallaby's.

Costly repairs to aircraft is a retaliative thing. Take out a single VHF aerial on either a PC12 or PC24 and the repair will be very similar and also the down time. Depending on where the "dent" is, again the repair cost and down time can be similar. Now if you take the collapsed nose neg example on a PC12 (B200 or C441) against the PC24 , replacement and repair of the nose leg would be similar but the engine and propeller repairs will be much higher.

With the PC24 having rear mounted (and higher) engines they are less likely to be affected by animals/wildlife, the likelihood is further reduced by having a much smaller diameter than the propeller arc.

Are you able to supply what non jet aircraft are not sensitive to impact damage? Certainly the Citation is build far more robust than the Caravan in as far as impact damage to the air-frames.

Towering Q
16th Dec 2018, 00:34
Yes, you are missing something. You shouldn't be, because I have gone over it several times - see my post #65.

Your level of arrogance is quite extraordinary. I didn't realize you were a world authority on aeromedical retrievals.

1. The time to do a transfer is 2.5 hours longer when the jet is based in Broome (the idea of jets is to save time);
2. The taxpayer shells out a million dollars more, per year, to have a jet in Broome.

I love the way you pluck figures out of the air to suit your argument. Where did a million dollars come from? Do you have an intricate understanding of the Broome Bases finances?

Despite all the pontificating on threads like this, there will be a 24 based in Broome. In the mean time, if you feel your tax dollars are being wasted, I suggest you take it up with your local MP.

Bend alot
16th Dec 2018, 02:40
Towering Q - the $1,000,000 was FDG135,'s guess at the cost of housing and other costs to the RFDS for staff at Broome that is not paid at Jandakot. I always thought it was well over the top and looking at the RFDS WA Pilot EBA it certainly is. All so to note is the extra 15 minute response time for Jandakot.

Seems the extra cost is about $20,000 per pilot based in Broome.

source :- AE416813

All new or existing employees employed at the (new) Broome base will receive the applicable district allowance rate for Broome in accordance with the WA Government rates.

All new employees employed at a regional base will be eligible for the applicable district allowance in accordance with the WA Government rates.

(Around $10,000 PA)



2. Permanent Accommodation

2.1 This clause shall apply in respect of permanent accommodation for a Full-time Pilot located at Bases outside the Perth metropolitan area, other than for the short term period provided in Clause 1.5 and 1.6 of this Annexure.

2.2 All Pilots employed at Bases on Permanent Transfer other than Jandakot Base shall be provided with:

(a) suitable Permanent Accommodation; or annual accommodation and utilities allowance of $10,028 per annum.

(b) or in the case of Pilot owning their own residence in a regional Base, $10, 180).

The allowance to be increased by the annual CPI rate each year during the life of the Agreement. This allowance will be paid pro-rata on paid hours worked.

2.3 A Pilot who resides in permanent accommodation owned or operated by the RFDS:

RFDS Pilots

(a) shall have 5% of the Pilot's gross salary deducted and remitted to the RFDS as a rental charge; and (around $6,000 PA)

(b) shall have 3% of the Pilot's gross salary deducted and remitted to the RFDS as a utility charge and the RFDS will pay all reasonable costs for the utilities used.(around $3,600 PA)



3. Response Times 3.1

When a Pilot is on Reserve Time at Home or Away from the Airport, the Pilot must be contactable and available for Duty and must sign on for Duty at the Airport:

(a) at Bases other than Jandakot Base, within 30 minutes of being notified of a callout; and

(b) at the Jandakot Base, within 45 minutes of being notified of a callout.

3.2 Pilots must make all reasonable attempts to contact the tasking coordinator to advise if an unexpected delay occurs.

FGD135
16th Dec 2018, 03:12
Bend alot, that rollover and the burnt athletes all would have initially gone to the local hospitals for stabilisation (Derby, Kununurra). They would not have been ready for transport to Perth or Darwin until several hours later. The jet from Jandakot could have been using those hours to get to the Kimberley.

There are numerous cases and places where the jet base in Broome can be justifiedCan you give me example scenarios? No need for specific cases, just scenarios. I have been asking for these scenarios for a while now. Remember that anybody coming from Broome will first be coming from the Broome hospital - so there will be plenty of time to get the jet up from Jandakot.

Cost should not be a factor when public health is the priority.This is an incredible statement coming from someone that has worked for the RFDS, morno. Cost is, in fact, the NUMBER ONE determinant in where/when/how medical services are provided. Everything is determined by cost. Everything. I once heard an RFDS nurse saying a similar thing. This is the starry-eyed, romantic, idealised notion of the RFDS. The reality is more down to earth. Money does not grow on trees.

And don't think cost is not important. Careflight and a few others have designs on a slice of WA's aeromedical contracts. The inter-hospital transfers, for example, is a niche that could be made into a separate contract (or has already been). Careflight could do that work much more cheaply than the RFDS.

Towering Q,

I love the way you pluck figures out of the air to suit your argument. Where did a million dollars come from?The "million dollars" is an educated guess. I would guess 4-5 more pilots, 2-3 more nurses, and 1-2 more doctors. That is 7-10 houses to be provided to these staff, plus all the remote allowances and perks. What would be your estimate?

Surely you can see where the 2.5 hours comes from - and that it is a very accurate figure.

I am not at all "anti RFDS". They do a great job (but given their history, would have to be bloated and inefficient). I am anti having our taxes wasted. Our "governments" probably waste a good 50% of all that hard earned money we have to give them. Every day, they find new ways to waste it.

Bend alot
16th Dec 2018, 03:51
FGD135 I did give you the example - you should read what I can not link. Here is a bit more of it.

Stabilisation was in Darwin not Kunnanara.

"Royal Flying Doctors spokeswoman Joanne Hill said the two were flown to Darwin because the trip to Perth was too long.

"Ideally the two would have gone to Perth but we needed to stabilise them," she said.

Ms Hill said the runners were injured at about 5pm on Friday and had to wait four hours for the alarm to be raised. They then had the 100km journey - mostly on unsealed roads - to Kununurra Hospital before the Royal Flying Doctor Service could take them to Darwin."

Note Kunnanara to Darwin (if they were stable then they would have gone to Perth) - so they were not stable at Kunnanara.
Once stable in Darwin one went to Sydney and the other Melbourne.

This real example shows your Perth only jet base as a massive time delay over Broome, as the PC24 would fly direct into Kunnanarra (no feeder PC12) then be in Darwin while your Perth based jet is only around 1/2 way to Kunnanarra.

Icarus2001
16th Dec 2018, 04:05
Before you guys get carried away about "our tax dollars" remember that they are only part government funded. Last financial year they received 22% of their funds from the federal government and 29% from state and territory governments. That is 51%, leaving 49% to other sources.

https://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/assets/annual_report/file/RN041_Annual_Report_2016-2017_D9.pdf

FGD135
16th Dec 2018, 04:30
Thanks, Icarus2001. A little birdy once told me it was 80% government, but she was from WA, so that may have been just the Western Section.

FGD135
17th Dec 2018, 05:05
Seems the extra cost is about $20,000 per pilot based in Broome.Bend alot, you have left out the housing costs and most of the perks. 7-10 houses would have to be provided to the 7-10 extra staff that would occupy Broome. How much would it cost the RFDS per house, per year? Some may be rentals, some may be purchased. And the perks for the nurses and doctors? The doctors are on hefty salaries and receive hefty perks to match.

Stabilisation was in Darwin not Kunnanara.You're basing that on the statement from the RFDS. Every statement from them should be taken with a grain of salt. It comes down to what degree of stabilisation. A certain amount of that stabilisation would had to have occurred at the Kununurra hosital.

This real example shows your Perth only jet base as a massive time delay over Broome, as the PC24 would fly direct into Kunnanarra (no feeder PC12)...You're assuming that the RFDS only became aware of these cases when they first arrived in Kununurra - and that on arrival in Kununurra, they were ready to instantly go to Darwin.

In reality, the RFDS would have been aware of them hours before they got to Kununurra. And they would have spent several hours in the Kununurra hospital, on top of that. Plenty of time to get the jet up from Perth.

Towering Q
17th Dec 2018, 05:55
Every statement from them should be taken with a grain of salt

There’s that ‘anti-RFDS’ tone sneaking in again.

Myself and another Hedland pilot flew to Kununurra for this job. Derby unavailable for some reason. Kununurra Hospital were completely overwhelmed, as you could imagine. Our medical crews went in to stabilise for transfer. I flew Turia Pitt on to Darwin. We chose Darwin for a number of reasons.
1. Doctors were struggling to gain IV access for fluid resus. Therefore time critical.
2. Pilots would have to declare mercy flight to get to Perth due to duty time restrictions.
3. Perth would require two fuel stops due to load limits with the PC12.
4. Darwin was only 45 minutes away
5. Darwin had a good trauma unit with experienced medical staff, thanks to the Bali bombings.

Although this scenario isn’t exactly an everyday event, a PC24 based in Broome would have been ideal. I don’t recall us having much ‘lead time’ for this job, so the Jet transit time from Jandakot would have been an issue.

Bend alot
17th Dec 2018, 07:59
"you have left out the housing costs and most of the perks. 7-10 houses would have to be provided to the 7-10 extra staff that would occupy Broome. How much would it cost the RFDS per house, per year? Some may be rentals, some may be purchased. And the perks for the nurses and doctors? The doctors are on hefty salaries and receive hefty perks to match."

Mate READ the EBA, there is a very clear cut back and not many "perks".

The new Base Allowance is much less for Broome and housing is capped or charged. Rental in Broome is reasonable and I expect most permanent staff are required to get their own accommodation, I expect that the RFDS do have some houses but they are for temp crew/staff on fill ins.

Perks seem to be a fuel card with a limit and medicals, both include Jandakot pilots.

So until you supply something other than opinion lets stick to the factual $20K. and nothing like a total $1,000,000 that you asked if we had a better idea rather than your "educated" guess.

On your current form, it might not look good for you if we look at your other claims - re doctors and perks and so on.

I am also not sure a new aircraft type would require 7-10 houses but am certain the number of staff would be similar if an extra PC12 was based in Broome - so it is not really a jet base argument more capacity.

Towering Q #5 I have to agree - I am alive and scareless due to the Bali Bombings and the new treatment they developed.
Keep up the good work.

A very good guy I knew died trying to help a Trucky at Nanutarra Roadhouse many years ago, there was no aircraft to dispatch for a period of time. The organisation has now grown and with the introduction of the PC24 maybe he could be saved if it were now he had the accident. The station is like 1km away and has 2 runways and from memory one could take the jet, while not sealed people in that part of the world will make it to a standard required even with fencing - They just do what is required.

I also think that we will find Nanutarra is very close to half way between Jandakot and Broome coincidentally for me.

FGD135
17th Dec 2018, 09:33
I don’t recall us having much ‘lead time’ for this job, so the Jet transit time from Jandakot would have been an issue.You're speaking from a pilot's perspective. You said yourself that there may be hours between when the job comes up and when the crew are tasked. How much time elapsed before you were called in this case? You would not have been tasked immediately.

I expect most permanent staff are required to get their own accommodationI very much doubt that. Hence my claim re the 7-10 houses. Perhaps Towering Q can enlighten us, based on his time at Port Hedland.

... lets stick to the factual $20KThat figure is from the pilot's EBA. What about the nurses and doctors? You have just shown that the total remote allowance for just the pilots is about $100K. Add in those for the extra nurses and doctors and you will be already near one quarter of the way to that million dollars. Now add in the housing (including utilities).

Bend alot
17th Dec 2018, 10:05
FDG135 we have supplied many facts - your turn show us the doctors and nurses costs as per EBA or other.

You supply nothing in way of fact and now proven very wrong on the pilots (your first claim of $1M) you want to change to medical staff.

(READ THE EBA - times HAVE CHANGED it is not Port Headland but all new now at Port Headland are under the new EBA (READ IT!!!!!!) then we will not look like you do now.)

Fine prove the cost, as we have proven you wrong to date with facts.

*** The fire burnt the victims at around 5 pm and the alarm was raised about 4 hours later, but both girls were taken by chopper to Kunnanara not by road so at a guess we are looking at a 10 pm arrival at Kunnanara. At best the the jet is ready to leave Jandakot as the girls are being picked up in the choppers - do the flight times between the 2 bases.

willadvise
17th Dec 2018, 10:11
I have no experience in this area apart from being an ATC for some years dealing with the RFDS. A scenario I have envisaged is, a patient is picked up by the PC12 from somewhere, or presents to Broome hospital. It looks like they will need to go to Perth. The Perth based PC24 is sent up to Broome. Subsequently, patient is assessed as treatable there or dies. This becomes a wasted trip for the Perth based PC24 whereas a Broome based PC24 would have never left the ground.

Not sure how often this is likely to happen but thought I would throw it out there for comment.
​​​​​

Bend alot
17th Dec 2018, 10:14
Well said FGD, most have no idea how it all works. Most accident cases that require evac are pre prepped so the jet would only be used when it's beneficial time wise, actually available & convenient, other than that it wont be doing much in the way of work to remote dirt strips as there are too many limitations. The 12's will still do the majority of the work, the Jet is a political thing as well but that's a whole other story!
No it is a practical thing and FDG is yet to supply anything other than opinion, that has been refuted by fact.

So exactly how does it work?

Towering Q
17th Dec 2018, 10:27
How much time elapsed before you were called in this case?

I was tasked as soon as I commenced night shift, 1800hrs. The afternoon shift pilot agreed to extend duty. From memory, communication at the event was poor. The girls were ferried into Kununurra via local helicopters.

Re: company housing. All regional bases supply accommodation. Older bases like Hedland, have plenty of company houses. Broome, being a new base, uses rentals. Jandakot is the only base that requires pilots to sort out their own housing.

Bend alot
17th Dec 2018, 10:27
I have no experience in this area apart from being an ATC for some years dealing with the RFDS. A scenario I have envisaged is, a patient is picked up by the PC12 from somewhere, or presents to Broome hospital. It looks like they will need to go to Perth. The Perth based PC24 is sent up to Broome. Subsequently, patient is assessed as treatable there or dies. This becomes a wasted trip for the Perth based PC24 whereas a Broome based PC24 would have never left the ground.

Not sure how often this is likely to happen but thought I would throw it out there for comment.
​​​​​
Hi mate, the No sayers have 2 cards at play.

A) The jet will be sent when a call is raised so travel time is not applicable. But Jandakot has better dispatch.
B) A patient will not be moved until stable - giving time for a jet to move from Jandakot.

Personally if there were no jet in Broome, I don't think sending the jet from Jandakot trying to save my daughter in Broome is a wasted trip but a best effort but short on time.

Captain Nomad
17th Dec 2018, 12:43
I hinted a few pages back that maybe not all patients get transferred to Perth. How many beds in the Darwin hospital are allocated to Kimberley patients? A figure I heard some years ago was about 6-8, I don't know what it is now but I would think it would be more rather than less... And that is just one regional destination. What about patients going back into Broome or Port Hedland?That's an eye watering amount of dead-legging expense to and from Perth even at jet-like speeds... Might even buy you a few housed in Broome for that sort of caper...!

What's the chances FDG135 is batting for Care Flight...? :E

FGD135
17th Dec 2018, 23:15
Re: company housing. All regional bases supply accommodation. Older bases like Hedland, have plenty of company houses. Broome, being a new base, uses rentals. Jandakot is the only base that requires pilots to sort out their own housing.Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).

I hinted a few pages back that maybe not all patients get transferred to Perth.There is no justification for transfers to Darwin from the Kimberley with the jet. The time saved is miniscule. The transfer from Kununurra for example, would take 45 minutes in the jet, versus 60 minutes in the PC-12. 60 and 96 from Halls Creek. And those patients would be already stabilised, thus reducing the need for expediency. No justification.

Captain Nomad
18th Dec 2018, 04:26
Sorry FGD, I didn't realise you were privy to all the flight planning timings... No doubt the flexibility of being able to go Kununurra - Darwin or Kununurra - Perth (non-stop) with an increased capacity of three stretchers is a 'miniscule' saving of time and resources also...

The East Coast equivalent of what you are arguing is that it would be best to have a jet based in Melbourne for medical emergencies taking place in Queensland...

There are times where having the medical crew onsite sooner rather than later is beneficial as others have already highlighted. If you saw the abilities of some of those places to actually perform the 'stabilisation' you are so confident happens so easily, with plenty of time to spare, it might change the perspective a little.

Even for serious cases ex-Broome I would rather have my family in a jet already heading south rather than waiting for the equivalent of a jet to be launched from Melbourne while I was waiting in Townsville for it to arrive...

The big picture is patient outcomes. The whole purpose of having an air ambulance is to cut down crucial transport time to specialist care. Surely an asset that offers the ability to reduce that time should be met with greater approval rather than maligned with the negativity pervading what could be a more positive thread.

Australia, home of the tall-poppy cutting master craftsmen...

VH-MLE
18th Dec 2018, 05:23
The bottom line IMHO is that whether both both/all (considering a third is a strong possibility) jets are based at JT, or split between JT & BRM, patient transport/outcomes will be significantly enhanced either way. To me, having one based in BRM is a logical step for the reasons already spelt out by many so far.

Sorry FGD, while I understand what you're saying regarding the potential financial efficiencies of basing all jets in Perth, you do seem to have a "bee in your bonnet" about it & I'm not sure why. I know the WA Health Dep't want a stronger RFDS presence in the Kimberley & the planned crew/aircraft allocation should satisfy that requirement...

Just my 2 lire worth...

Bend alot
18th Dec 2018, 09:17
Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).



I actually before posting checked the rents in Broome and Port Headland - that was why I replyed 4 Houses in Port will get you 5 in Broome - I did not think but worked of fact!

Now do me just one favor list the perks with the costs ( I will allow your extra house numbers from your original - but do not believe them) to show the $500,000 extra you now claim.

My research would put it at around $100,000 pa over a 3 year budget average extra - give or take $50,000 - on Jandakot staff.

Is a simple request.

Bend alot
19th Dec 2018, 10:45
Thanks, TQ. This information inspired me to redo my numbers. Rental in Broome is much cheaper than I first thought. The average seems to be around $500 pw. Redoing my numbers puts the total yearly outlay for the RFDS at about half a million (including all perks) for ALL the staff I estimate would be there due to the jet being based there (7-10 as stated above).

There is no justification for transfers to Darwin from the Kimberley with the jet. The time saved is miniscule. The transfer from Kununurra for example, would take 45 minutes in the jet, versus 60 minutes in the PC-12. 60 and 96 from Halls Creek. And those patients would be already stabilised, thus reducing the need for expediency. No justification.


Still waiting to see your "redo" numbers (including all perks)

Justifications have been made - you refuse to accept them - even given cases that have happened.

FGD135
19th Dec 2018, 12:20
Now do me just one favor list the perks with the costs ... to show the $500,000 extra you now claim.You came up with $20K per pilot per year in perks. That is $100K per year for just the pilots. Now what about the nurses and doctors? The pilots would be the low men on the totem pole. The nurses and doctors would be on more.

The nurses would be on 1.2 - 1.5 times the pilot's salary, conditions and perks. Reasonable? For the doctors, it could easily be 2-3 times. Reasonable? I once heard that the remote RFDS doctors were on packages that were north of $300K pa, so I don't think unreasonable. Let's be generous and call it 1.5 times for this particular group of doctors and nurses, so that makes $150K pa for the nurse and doctor perks.

The annual rental for all the houses would be about $280K, so adding these three figures together (100K, 150K, 280K) gives us $530,000 for the year.

No doubt the flexibility of being able to go ... Kununurra - Perth (non-stop) with an increased capacity of three stretchers is a 'miniscule' saving of time and resources also...Hopelessly misrepresenting my position there, Captain Nomad. That kind of trip is, in fact, exactly where the jet comes into its own. That is where the jet is well and truly justified and greatly improves the service performed by the RFDS. But we are not talking about whether the jet is justified (I believe it is) - we are talking about the Broome basing.

The East Coast equivalent of what you are arguing is that it would be best to have a jet based in Melbourne for medical emergencies taking place in Queensland...How about you actually read what I have said? I have gone over it several times.

There are times where having the medical crew onsite sooner rather than later is beneficial as others have already highlighted.A few minutes sooner? The most distant hospital that the jet would be going from Broome would be Kununurra (400 NM). The jet would get there in 63 minutes, as compared to 99 minutes for the PC-12. For Halls Creek, the next most distant place the jet can go, the times are 52 and 78 minutes.

So, you base a $10 million dollar jet in Broome for those once-in-a-blue-moon occasions when you can save a few minutes getting doctors to Kununurra? Sorry, I don't buy it.

The big picture is patient outcomes.Actually, the big picture is patient outcomes for the available funding.

... the negativity pervading what could be a more positive thread.Perhaps those starry eyes would rather look the other way when waste and inefficiency come into view. Perhaps the beholder believes bureaucrats always know what they're doing and always make the right decisions - and that such decisions are always free of any politics. Perhaps asking questions is a little too much negativity.

morno
19th Dec 2018, 12:48
FGD, I’ll type a more detailed response to you when I can be bothered.

But the obvious question, is this an EXTRA aircraft for Broome? Or will they be taking a PC-12 out (assuming they have more than 1 already there) when the jet arrives?

That might change a lot of your figures FGD. Because it could well mean no increase in any crew numbers.

morno

Alice Kiwican
20th Dec 2018, 02:03
I would have thought that if there is extra crew required in Broome it would just be the pilots. Couldn’t the current flight nurse’s and doctors be rostered in either the PC12 or the PC24?

Bankstown Boy
20th Dec 2018, 05:25
Awww, come on Alice! You'll spoil a good yarn by introducing such stupidities as 'logic' & 'common-sense' and other such useless frivolities.

I've been reading this thread with some amusement since it opened and I been waiting for it to draw to its inevitable conclusion that goes something along the lines of :
- as the PC24 is only a 'bit' faster than the PC12, what's the point? I mean it's not as though the block speeds are a gazillion times lower, what's the point?

My response was going to be that, as speed and modernity of the aircraft don't (apparently) matter, the RFDS could go back to the venerable de Havilland DH-50A or such similar (just as soon as someone rustles up a good price - can't waste any money don't-cha-know?).

LeadSled
20th Dec 2018, 05:36
YSBK Boy,
Love it!!
Tootle pip!!

harrryw
20th Dec 2018, 06:36
Would there be an argument for basing both in Broome as it seems most of the flights are taking people from the North to the south. ie urgencies flown from Broome to Perth and the flight returns with non urgent transfer patients to the north and is then ready for another pickup. Southern distances are shorter and maybe more suited to the south.

Towering Q
20th Dec 2018, 07:02
Bankstown Boy...are you crazy? The de Havilland DH.50?

The Baron 58 would be a much better option.

Bend alot
20th Dec 2018, 07:18
You came up with $20K per pilot per year in perks. That is $100K per year for just the pilots. Now what about the nurses and doctors? The pilots would be the low men on the totem pole. The nurses and doctors would be on more.

The nurses would be on 1.2 - 1.5 times the pilot's salary, conditions and perks. Reasonable? For the doctors, it could easily be 2-3 times. Reasonable? I once heard that the remote RFDS doctors were on packages that were north of $300K pa, so I don't think unreasonable. Let's be generous and call it 1.5 times for this particular group of doctors and nurses, so that makes $150K pa for the nurse and doctor perks.

The annual rental for all the houses would be about $280K, so adding these three figures together (100K, 150K, 280K) gives us $530,000 for the year.


.

FDG I have actually asked you to list the "perks"! You failed!!

I stated that as per the RFDS EA that the pilots in Broome could get around $10,000 in a remote area allowance (because they live in a more expensive location than Perth).

I also said that they can get around $10,000 in a accommodation allowance (if they rent or own a home in Broome).

However if they use company housing they must pay 5% + 3% of total salary for rent and utilities, they will NOT get the accommodation allowance. So only $10K per pilot

My personal belief is that the pilots that live in Broome are expected to find their own accommodation.

Your doctors and nurses claims are laughable, mostly as one poster stated they just jump in any plane and do the job - don't need jet type rated doctors and nurses. But if the jet creates extra work then they might need more, but that destroys your argument completely.

Now your 5 extra pilots to fly a single crew aircraft - how many pilots are currently based in Broome? How Many will get type rated on the jet?

I would imagine the Senior Base Pilot would get a bit upset if he did not get an endorsement and very surprised if all Broome crew were not given ratings. So there may be no extra pilots or medical staff required for the jet basing in Broome even if this is an extra aircraft it would not require 5 extra pilots to crew it 24/7.

So again FDG I am interested to hear from you what "perks" you think the RFDS base pilots get or for that matter medical staff. The list of doctors in Perth north and south of $300K you would find interesting! $300K a year is not uncommon for many outside aviation.

Bend alot
20th Dec 2018, 07:27
Would there be an argument for basing both in Broome as it seems most of the flights are taking people from the North to the south. ie urgencies flown from Broome to Perth and the flight returns with non urgent transfer patients to the north and is then ready for another pickup. Southern distances are shorter and maybe more suited to the south.

Under the current use of the 800 jet, up to 20% flights would be worse off with both jets based in Broome.

Bend alot
20th Dec 2018, 07:30
Bankstown Boy...are you crazy? The de Havilland DH.50?

The Baron 58 would be a much better option.

Baron 55 is cheaper - basically the same plane!

BEACH KING
20th Dec 2018, 08:30
Baron 55 is cheaper - basically the same plane!
Pffft.
You are comparing apples to oranges with your luxurious and expensive Baron 55.

As the PC12 is a single engine aircraft, a far more logical and economical alternative is the venerable Bonanza A36!

Bend alot
20th Dec 2018, 09:01
Pffft.
You are comparing apples to oranges with your luxurious and expensive Baron 55.

As the PC12 is a single engine aircraft, a far more logical and economical alternative is the venerable Bonanza A36!


The V Tail allows the ambulance to get closer for loading of the 3 stretchers. A cargo pod could also be a cheap option for a 4th stretcher.

Ex FSO GRIFFO
20th Dec 2018, 09:41
And a 5th and 6th stretcher ….one on each wing....or UNDER it...…Gotta get that darned 'lift' from somewhere.....

Mind the breeze dear....don't worry about your hair.....

Cheeerrrsss...

Bend alot
20th Dec 2018, 10:35
I hope FDG can pick jokes from real questions asked.

FGD135
20th Dec 2018, 13:01
Couldn’t the current flight nurse’s and doctors be rostered in either the PC12 or the PC24?I'm sure they could Alice, but the issue is with the numbers of nurses and doctors. An extra aircraft at the base makes for extra shifts that have to be filled - assuming the RFDS want all the aircraft always capable of flying.

So, how to fill those extra shifts? Only two ways:

1. Extra manpower, or
2. Increased utilisation of existing manpower.

Option 2 is only feasible if there is considerable "fat" in the existing PC12 rosters. There may be some fat, but I very much doubt enough to completely fill all the extra shifts.

In my numbers, I have gone for 4-5 extra pilots, 2-3 extra nurses, and 1-2 extra doctors. I have assumed some fat in the existing nurse manpower levels. Without that fat, it would have to have been 4-5 extra nurses.

compressor stall
20th Dec 2018, 13:46
Are you planning to apply for the CEO role? I'm sure you'll teach them a thing or 2 in the interview process.

LeadSled
20th Dec 2018, 22:22
Bankstown Boy...are you crazy? The de Havilland DH.50?
The Baron 58 would be a much better option.

TQ,
Not really, max one body in a Baron, you could get a couple of stretchers on a DH 50.
As to this thread, is it all about a couple of pilots who want on the PC-24, but want to live (remain living) in Perth??
Tootle pip!!

catseye
20th Dec 2018, 23:30
Are you planning to apply for the CEO role? I'm sure you'll teach them a thing or 2 in the interview process.
Too right. He can write the next business case as well.

Bend alot
21st Dec 2018, 07:31
4-5 Extra pilots based in Broome for an extra aircraft? - forget medical staff, you fail to win the pilot/jet case yet.

So on your numbers if Broome has 2 x PC12 and 1 x PC24 in Broome then the RFDS need 12- 15 pilots based in Broome.

So we have at any one time 9 - 12 pilots sitting around doing nothing!

The reality is there may be 4 off duty pilots while 3 are flying - that's 7 pilots based in Broome in total.

There is no need to have a pilot based in Broome to cover a pilot on holiday or if a pilot get sick for a number of days - in this case a pilot from Perth is sent to cover for the short term absence. If it is for the case of planned leave then a training pilot can be sent to be well utilised while in Broome.

The roster is set so certain pilots (possible 1 or 2) are on say a 12 hour emergency on call and I see this can even be extended to 24 hrs - there is an extremely low chance of actually being called in but it can cover for occasions that are rare like 2 pilots calling in sick at the same time. The remaining 5 or 6 pilots cover days off and duty.

I doubt there is "fat" in the number of nurses, they work dam hard and certainly do not have HARD duty limits like pilots have enforced by CASA - a nurse can work much more than 2,000 hrs a year.

catseye
21st Dec 2018, 08:47
After all the patient impact discussion does anyone have the range with a sea level cabin and TAS?
Thanks

Bend alot
21st Dec 2018, 09:52
After all the patient impact discussion does anyone have the range with a sea level cabin and TAS?
Thanks
No but it would need to be compared to the PC12's same figures of sea level and TAS for the same job.

The reality of sea level flights from my time with the docs was rare - but it did happen a few times.

catseye
21st Dec 2018, 22:18
No but it would need to be compared to the PC12's same figures of sea level and TAS for the same job.

The reality of sea level flights from my time with the docs was rare - but it did happen a few times.
Wonder if it can do BME PER sea level cabin with 60 mins holding or a decent alternate that can support the patient?

Bend alot
21st Dec 2018, 22:50
On Jan 2017 a second PC12 was announced for Broome.

2016/2017 Review (so after June 2017) "With its 15-strong crew of doctors, nurses and pilots, and new state of-the-art patient treatment centre, the RFDS in Broome has delivered much needed capacity to respond to emergencies throughout the Kimberley and Pilbara."

This crew of 15 staff cover the operation of 2 aircraft and cover for staff days off and sickness reserves we can assume.

So if currently 2 pilots are on active duty and a 3rd is on standby in case one falls ill, with the addition of another aircraft would an extra standby pilot be required on this roster , or just an extra pilot on active duty?

Towering Q
22nd Dec 2018, 00:53
My personal belief is that the pilots that live in Broome are expected to find their own accommodation.

All pilots in Broome are supplied with accommodation, subject to the conditions you outlined earlier.

I would imagine the Senior Base Pilot would get a bit upset if he did not get an endorsement and very surprised if all Broome crew were not given ratings

The SBP is not type rated, and there are no plans to do so. The PC12 and PC24 pilots will be two distinct groups, both in Broome and Jandakot.

The reality of sea level flights from my time with the docs was rare - but it did happen a few times.

Maybe things have changed, but I wouldn't call it 'rare'. Any patient with bowel obstruction, open head wound, penetrating eye injuries, respiratory failure or pneumothorax, will require a sea-level cabin. Sometimes even a doctor with a head cold.

Bend alot
22nd Dec 2018, 01:15
Do you know if they are houses puchased by RFDS or are they renting them?

2 distinct groups, well that is a surprise!

That is certainly an expensive option and one that can lead to friction in the ranks very easily.

Things would have changed as it was probably not discussed much back then - the fleet was 3 or 4 C441's and a Mojave with the bulk of fleet un-pressurised PA-31's. Most Jandakot based pilots were rated on all and flew all.

harrryw
22nd Dec 2018, 01:31
Wonder if it can do BME PER sea level cabin with 60 mins holding or a decent alternate that can support the patient?
Cabin Sea Level at aircraft altitude 23,500 ft from https://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/en/fly/pc-24 ( the ambulance doc.)
Someone should be able to tell range.

FGD135
22nd Dec 2018, 01:35
I would imagine the Senior Base Pilot would get a bit upset if he did not get an endorsement and very surprised if all Broome crew were not given ratingsBack in your day, Bend alot, "getting an endorsement" wouldn't have been much more than flying a few circuits. "Getting an endorsement" in this aircraft is a much, much bigger exercise. The 2-3 week course in the USA is just a part of it. There is also the issue of pilot suitability. Most of the PC12 pilots would be too inexperienced for the jet, on their first turbine, and without an ATPL licence. It was always going to be a separate group of pilots for the jet, hence my estimate of 4-5 extra pilots for Broome.

An extra 4-5 nurses too? Quite possibly. It depends on how much "excess capacity" is in the current Broome nurse roster. I used the word "fat", the other day, but you took it the wrong way - so now the more politically correct terminology. With no excess capacity, then we must expect 4-5 more nurses. With some excess capacity, then maybe only 3-4 nurses.

Under the current use of the 800 jet, up to 20% flights would be worse off with both jets based in Broome.Do you have usage information for the Hawker 800? I would like to take a look at it. Please PM to me or give me the links.

TQ, thanks again for the inside information. Would you know what minimum runway width CASA is going to require for this jet's operations? Also, are they going to insist on the 1.67 landing distance factor? Just trying to further my understanding of which strips it will be able to use. Thanks.

harrryw
22nd Dec 2018, 01:36
Cabin Sea Level at aircraft altitude 23,500 ft from https://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/en/fly/pc-24 ( the ambulance doc.)
Someone should be able to tell range.
Cunderdin would be suitable about 60 miles from Perth, different weather.NameCUNDERDIN, Western AustraliaCountryAustraliaICAO CodeYCUNIATA CodeLocation31°37'20.0"S 117°13'0.0"E Elevation705 ftLongest Runway6040 ftMagnetic Variation-1°TypePublic/civilBeaconNoFuel typesJET 5Landing feeYesOxygenLow Pressure BottleRepairsMajor Engine

Towering Q
22nd Dec 2018, 02:12
Sorry FGD, I’m one of those non-ATPL, first turbine, inexperienced PC12 drivers you mentioned. I don’t know any of those particulars. And if I did, I feel it would be inappropriate to mention it here.

Just trying to further my understanding of which strips it will be able to use.

FGD....you’re not from the dark side, are you?

Alice Kiwican
22nd Dec 2018, 03:25
[QUOTE=Bend alot;10341921]

2 distinct groups, well that is a surprise

No surprise to me. I stand corrected but I believe that will be the norm in the other sections as well (those that get the PC24 anyway)

Bend alot
22nd Dec 2018, 09:17
Back in your day, Bend alot, "getting an endorsement" wouldn't have been much more than flying a few circuits. "Getting an endorsement" in this aircraft is a much, much bigger exercise. The 2-3 week course in the USA is just a part of it. There is also the issue of pilot suitability. Most of the PC12 pilots would be too inexperienced for the jet, on their first turbine, and without an ATPL licence. It was always going to be a separate group of pilots for the jet, hence my estimate of 4-5 extra pilots for Broome.

Do you have usage information for the Hawker 800? I would like to take a look at it. Please PM to me or give me the links.


Oh out of the box are we!

I expect that the location of the build would put any training closer to the country of manufacture and not in the USA - but I could be wrong as I have been (and happy to admit it).

First turbine?
Did the RFDS get the piston version of the PC12?
Is a turbo prop not more complex to operate than a jet?

Yep, it was 800ish hours (from memory) and around 80% in the Pilbara/Kimberly area. No good giving you links you have guessed all so far, try research but do not believe all you read.

catseye
23rd Dec 2018, 04:53
Cabin Sea Level at aircraft altitude 23,500 ft from https://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/en/fly/pc-24 ( the ambulance doc.)
Someone should be able to tell range.
Thanks Harry. Hadn't found that page. Wonder if someone has the range and available payload. ??

neville_nobody
23rd Dec 2018, 05:27
Oh out of the box are we!

I expect that the location of the build would put any training closer to the country of manufacture and not in the USA - but I could be wrong as I have been (and happy to admit it).

First turbine?
Did the RFDS get the piston version of the PC12?
Is a turbo prop not more complex to operate than a jet?

Yep, it was 800ish hours (from memory) and around 80% in the Pilbara/Kimberly area. No good giving you links you have guessed all so far, try research but do not believe all you read.

I suggest you educate yourself a little. There is a big difference poling around at 18000' vs 45000'. Aerodynamics change, Depressurisation becomes a serious issue. Weather is different. Descent management and flight management are different.
The big step up for some will be doing recurrent check and training in a simulator. That may washout a few of the old guard if they haven't experienced it before.

In the end it shouldn't be that hard of a task the issue will be whether the RFDS are willing to spend the money on the training.

Bend alot
23rd Dec 2018, 06:11
I suggest you educate yourself a little. There is a big difference poling around at 18000' vs 45000'. Aerodynamics change, Depressurisation becomes a serious issue. Weather is different. Descent management and flight management are different.
The big step up for some will be doing recurrent check and training in a simulator. That may washout a few of the old guard if they haven't experienced it before.

In the end it shouldn't be that hard of a task the issue will be whether the RFDS are willing to spend the money on the training.

Every current pilot with RFDS WA Section was a PC12 pilot.

Last I checked the PC12 had a service ceiling of 30,000 ft, it is pressurised and if depressurised is still a serious issue.

I very much hope aerodynamics do not change at subsonic speeds!

Weather is different - yes wet season flying will help, but between 30,000 to 45,000 feet you will probably not worry as much about ice.

Yes decent and flight management will be different - I think one of the Qantas guys flys the A380 yet has trained guys on Pitts on his days off, then the difference between the 737's to the Max. It is a simple jet mate not the space shuttle.

Is/Will there be a simulator in Australia?

Yes the required "simulator training" grounded the "old guard" at Hardy's for some time a while ago.

zanthrus
23rd Dec 2018, 06:29
I am disappointed that this thread has degenerated into a dick swinging contest between self appointed sky gods. Why don’t we wait and see how effective this aircraft will be in reality? The RFDS has good people and systems in place for it. I am sure that it will fit in nicely to the network. Give it a chance and keep the pontificating to yourself guys. Mods I think it’s time to lock this one.

Bend alot
23rd Dec 2018, 07:59
I am disappointed that this thread has degenerated into a dick swinging contest between self appointed sky gods. Why don’t we wait and see how effective this aircraft will be in reality? The RFDS has good people and systems in place for it. I am sure that it will fit in nicely to the network. Give it a chance and keep the pontificating to yourself guys. Mods I think it’s time to lock this one.

So this is your opinion that you chose to post.

But then you comment a suggestion/opinion to the Mods - very interesting in then calling people "sky gods".

But I am an engineer so no sky god and will allow Mods to operate I.A.W the forum rules and policy of posts and threads (but that does seem to vary).

FGD135
23rd Dec 2018, 08:11
Why don’t we wait and see how effective this aircraft will be in reality?
Nobody here doubts this aircraft will be highly effective in reality, zanthrus.

Bend alot
23rd Dec 2018, 10:35
Nobody here doubts this aircraft will be highly effective in reality, zanthrus.
Agreed 100%

compressor stall
23rd Dec 2018, 11:55
Having flown RFDS westops and now T&C on an airliner, I would say that it would be easier to teach most of the experienced RFDS crew to fly a jet rather that to teach an experienced jet guy to fly and land on dark black nights in the outback with flares.

I feel for the guy/ girls there. Poor management decision IMHO.

machtuk
23rd Dec 2018, 21:16
I suggest you educate yourself a little. There is a big difference poling around at 18000' vs 45000'. Aerodynamics change, Depressurisation becomes a serious issue. Weather is different. Descent management and flight management are different.
The big step up for some will be doing recurrent check and training in a simulator. That may washout a few of the old guard if they haven't experienced it before.

In the end it shouldn't be that hard of a task the issue will be whether the RFDS are willing to spend the money on the training.

Well said Nev:-)
There is a large diff from the slower Turbo prop to the high perf jet in just about every aspect. Lots of decision making is needed when flying a jet with limitations such as the PC24, you need to be on your toes constantly!

Towering Q
23rd Dec 2018, 23:16
All is not lost, Stallie. New CEO, who is brilliant BTW, keen to introduce ‘pathways’ for existing crew.

FGD135
24th Dec 2018, 00:37
I would say that it would be easier to teach most of the experienced RFDS crew to fly a jet rather that to teach an experienced jet guy to fly and land on dark black nights in the outback with flares.Don't agree, Stallie. For starters, the jet won't be landing in the outback with flares. As machtuk has said, it is a big step up from the slower and more forgiving turboprop.

Such training of the PC12 pilots would have consisted of at least 12 months ICUS, but they needed pilots much more quickly than that. And they will be single pilots. If it had been a two pilot ship, then it could have been a PC12 pilot in the RH seat virtually from day one.

I expect the RFDS will have their eye on a scheme where certain qualifying PC12 pilots (ATPL'd with sufficient multi-engine time) will, via 18-24 months ICUS, attain the standard for single pilot of the jet. It will take that long because these pilots will still be needed to fly the PC12 in the interim.

LeadSled
24th Dec 2018, 04:05
Folks,
As a matter of interest, what would an approach Vref at MLW be for PC-12 versus a PC-24 ---- anybody with the numbers handy.
As for other "high speeds", I imagine 250kt below 10,000 in the PC-12 is pretty much the same speed as 250 kt below 10,000 in G in the PC-24, same same for circuit speeds???
I would hazard a guess (not having flown either, but a lot of other aircraft) that anybody who is competent on the PC-12 will find the PC-24 a bit of old doddle.
Tootle pip!!

compressor stall
24th Dec 2018, 05:50
And I’d guess there’s a lot of commonality in the automatics between the two, so not much of the “what’s it doing now” mode confusion to new trainees on type as seen in pilots going on to Airbus and Boeing.

Without trivialising it, any half decent PC12 pilot should be able to adapt to the steeper profile of the jet, the lack of speed control with propeller and it being a bit slipprier, and a bit more inertia. And two engines, for which asymmetric training which can be sorted in the sim. And it won’t take 18 months. There is an undercurrent of bitterness/prejudice in some posters (or maybe they’re from the same IP address😀) towards the current of RFDS pilots as not being able to cope with the “big step.” One can only guess at that motivation.

FWIW I came to the RFDS KingAir from a 6 seater unpressurised piston twin. It was my first turbine and my first pressurised aircraft (and there was no sim) But I had bush time, which was obviously weighted accordingly. All things being equal, it is easier to to train a pilot experienced in an environment into an aircraft than to train an experienced aircraft pilot into an operating environment.

Towering Q
24th Dec 2018, 06:39
As a matter of interest, what would an approach Vref at MLW be for PC-12 versus a PC-24 ---- anybody with the numbers handy.

From the Pilatus PC12 App:8....

4500kg ISA Sea Level: 85 KIAS

I think the 24 might be a little faster!

LeadSled
24th Dec 2018, 07:14
From the Pilatus PC12 App:8....

4500kg ISA Sea Level: 85 KIAS

I think the 24 might be a little faster!

TQ,
From one source I saw, Vs at MLW ( I assume in the landing configuration) of 85 kt, so yes, V ref a bit faster, around Metro speeds, should not present a problem.
Tootle pip!!

illusion
24th Dec 2018, 08:04
Get Wally S out of retirement. His 30 hrs in the F100 simulator gives preeminent jet experience to pass onto the lads....

morno
24th Dec 2018, 11:29
Don't agree, Stallie. For starters, the jet won't be landing in the outback with flares. As machtuk has said, it is a big step up from the slower and more forgiving turboprop.

Such training of the PC12 pilots would have consisted of at least 12 months ICUS, but they needed pilots much more quickly than that. And they will be single pilots. If it had been a two pilot ship, then it could have been a PC12 pilot in the RH seat virtually from day one.

I expect the RFDS will have their eye on a scheme where certain qualifying PC12 pilots (ATPL'd with sufficient multi-engine time) will, via 18-24 months ICUS, attain the standard for single pilot of the jet. It will take that long because these pilots will still be needed to fly the PC12 in the interim.

18-24 months of ICUS, are you f***king kidding me?! :ugh:

https://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/data/news/BCA_PC-24_Flight_Review_2018_Non-Printable.pdf

Have a read. Pilatus have made the aircraft as simple to fly as possible going by what I read in that. The PC-12 was much the same, very simple operation and the NG's became even easier again.

I disagree with your statement about training any jet pilot to become an RFDS pilot, as opposed to an RFDS pilot becoming a jet pilot. I did several years of aeromedical and it's a very specific skill set to become a GOOD aeromedical pilot. Learning to fly a simple to operate jet, not going to take very long at all. It's not a very highly swept wing, so the 'jet specifics' will hardly be noticeable.

At the end of the day, if the RFDS are going to move with the times and keep advancing like they have in their 90 years of operations, jets is the natural next step, and the PC-24 appears to be a very good choice of aircraft. Well done to Western Ops and Central Section on making the move and getting them.

Do you work for Careflight at all FGD?

harrryw
24th Dec 2018, 15:30
From the Pilatus PC12 App:8....

4500kg ISA Sea Level: 85 KIAS

I think the 24 might be a little faster!
from the website
PERFORMANCE
The PC-24 has the following performance under international standard atmospheric conditions:
Balanced field length
(MTOW, sea level, dry paved runway) 2,930 ft 893 m
Landing distance over 50 ft (15 m) obstacle
(MLW, sea level, dry paved runway) 2,375 ft 724 m
Max. rate of climb (MTOW, sea level, 200 KCAS) 4,070 fpm 20.70 m/s
Max. cruise speed (flight level 280) 440 KTAS 815 km/h
Range with 4 passengers
(800 lb payload, LRC, NBAA IFR reserves
of 100 nm + 30 min VFR)1 2,000 nm 3,704 km
Max. certified altitude 45,000 ft 13,716 m
Stall speed (landing configuration, MLW) 82 KIAS 151 km/h
WEIGHTS
Basic operating weight1 11,720 lb 5,316 kg
Max. take-off weight 18,300 lb 8,300 kg
Max. landing weight 16,900 lb 7,665 kg
Max. payload1 2,500 lb 1,134 kg

Eclan
26th Dec 2018, 03:47
I am disappointed that this thread has degenerated into a dick swinging contest between self appointed sky gods. Why don’t we wait and see how effective this aircraft will be in reality? The RFDS has good people and systems in place for it. I am sure that it will fit in nicely to the network. Give it a chance and keep the pontificating to yourself guys. Mods I think it’s time to lock this one.


Speaking of dick swinging, I read this commentary on the arrival of a new jet type into Australian service and instead of all the above discussion I find myself wondering why we have to buy it at all. We used to manufacture things in this country, like appliances, automobiles, etc, and yes even aircraft. Maybe nothing amazing but rather than develop it towards greater things the fledgling industry was abandoned in favour of lazy alternatives. When jungle jets are coming out of South America and being bought here there's something wrong. Countries the size of Switzerland and Sweden proudly manufacturing their own air, land and sea transport and exporting it to relative goliaths such as Australia - good on them but it makes me feel embarrassed at this end.

The PC24 isn't magical or ultra-secret technological innovation like the F117 was in its day. Nothing on it couldn't be brought in if we didn't want to do the fiddly parts ourselves and assembled here in a locally designed and built airframe, just like Embraer does. All the knowledge is out there.

Let's get the GAF building proper aircraft again(?).

ANCIENT
26th Dec 2018, 04:29
As a long term trainer and checker on jets and turboprops I have to agree with Compressor Stall and Leadsled. Learning to fly a new aircraft is not an issue it is learning the task that takes time.
Wether you are an airline pilot going back to charter or vice a versa the type rating is not the hard bit.
In Australia we have lots of hangups about moving up to twins then turbine and onto jets; elsewhere in the world they just get on with it.
Having flown NTAMS in a bygone era I applaud the RFDS for moving into jet operations.
ps I think the last proper aircraft the GAF built was the Mirage!

harrryw
26th Dec 2018, 12:37
As a long term trainer and checker on jets and turboprops I have to agree with Compressor Stall and Leadsled. Learning to fly a new aircraft is not an issue it is learning the task that takes time.
Wether you are an airline pilot going back to charter or vice a versa the type rating is not the hard bit.
In Australia we have lots of hangups about moving up to twins then turbine and onto jets; elsewhere in the world they just get on with it.
Having flown NTAMS in a bygone era I applaud the RFDS for moving into jet operations.
ps I think the last proper aircraft the GAF built was the Mirage!

You could try a Nomad again.

LeadSled
26th Dec 2018, 21:34
As a long term trainer and checker on jets and turboprops I have to agree with Compressor Stall and Leadsled. Learning to fly a new aircraft is not an issue it is learning the task that takes time.
Wether you are an airline pilot going back to charter or vice a versa the type rating is not the hard bit.
In Australia we have lots of hangups about moving up to twins then turbine and onto jets; elsewhere in the world they just get on with it.
Having flown NTAMS in a bygone era I applaud the RFDS for moving into jet operations.
ps I think the last proper aircraft the GAF built was the Mirage!

Well said!!
Tootle pip!!

PS: FGD 135, Some of the pilots you fly with must be a thick as Grandma's custard. Maye they would be better off in alternative occupational development.

machtuk
26th Dec 2018, 21:52
This sure is an interesting thread. We have insults, we have myths, story telling time, dreams hopes & wishes all rolled into one, this most amazing jet better live up to all the hype otherwise there will be a few sad people in here:-):-)

harrryw
27th Dec 2018, 02:00
To what extent could top end weather contribute to the PC24 being useful in cases where the PC12 are limited?
Though PC24 optimin altitude is about 25000 ft (which also has a sea level cabin) it has a ceiling over 40000ft which would enable it to fly above most of the weather which
The PC12has a ceiling of 30000ft and I am not sure of cabin altitude. Does this add value to the jet.

LeadSled
27th Dec 2018, 02:57
This sure is an interesting thread. We have insults, we have myths, story telling time, dreams hopes & wishes all rolled into one, this most amazing jet better live up to all the hype otherwise there will be a few sad people in here:-):-)

Machtuk,
Just imagine if the WRIGHT FLYER had been a turbine, and all of a sudden somebody invented the "much more economical TSFC" piston engine.

According to some of these blokes, only the greatest pilot since Pontius would be able to handle the vast complications of throttles and super/turbo chargers and over -boost, V-P props and runaways, cowl flap, multiple competing limiting temperatures, etc.,after years of ICUS, all the old dodders would be struck on the much more simple "jets".

Seriously, folks, why does Australia have such problems with an engine that has been around since the early 1940's, and fundamentally has single lever control.

And as for high level aerodynamics, forget it, modern aerodynamics has either designed out the problem, ( highest mach no. I have used is 0.98 on acceptance test) or, as here, it ain't fast enough to get into trouble.

And "jets" have been around longer then turbo-props!!
Tootle pip!!

morno
27th Dec 2018, 03:03
Precisely Leady.

I’ve got a few thousand jet and a few thousand turboprop. Each have their own peculiarities, but jets aren’t really that much harder than turboprops. Most of the guys I fly with have never flown anything with props outside of their flying training.

The Pilatus jet will have been designed for ultimate simplicity. Maybe the type rating and 40-50hrs ICUS. End of discussion.

LeadSled
27th Dec 2018, 07:00
Precisely Leady.

I’ve got a few thousand jet and a few thousand turboprop. Each have their own peculiarities, but jets aren’t really that much harder than turboprops. Most of the guys I fly with have never flown anything with props outside of their flying training.

The Pilatus jet will have been designed for ultimate simplicity. Maybe the type rating and 40-50hrs ICUS. End of discussion.

Morno,
That reminds me of years ago, the then head of training at China Southern, the airline (CSWAFC having been instructed by CASA that their cadets could not do an initial twin endorsement on their Citations, only an old C-310) ask very very senior CASA bloke:" Why do my cadets have to fly a twin engine aircraft with Otto Cycle engines, when they will never again, in their career, fly other than a turbine??".

Does it surprise you that CASA had no answer, not even a bulldust answer.

That chap from China Southern eventually became Minister for Civil Aviation in China, the CASA chap ---- well, that is another story, and China Southern moved their major training investment to Canada.

Back to the thread --- I have no doubt the PC-24 will be a highly successful aircraft, it can virtually go anywhere the PC-12 can go, and will undoubtedly be as nice to fly as all other Pilatus aircraft --- I have only flown the PC-6, both piston and turbine versions.

Tootle pip!!

Eclan
27th Dec 2018, 12:26
I disagree with your statement about training any jet pilot to become an RFDS pilot, as opposed to an RFDS pilot becoming a jet pilot. I did several years of aeromedical and it's a very specific skill set to become a GOOD aeromedical pilot. Learning to fly a simple to operate jet, not going to take very long at all. It's not a very highly swept wing, so the 'jet specifics' will hardly be noticeable.


So why weren't RFDS allowed to fly the current jets - Hawker 800 series?
Two crew safety in the deal.

Don't say swept wing...
When flown within the proper envelope the swept wing had nothing to do with it.

Bend alot
27th Dec 2018, 12:53
So why weren't RFDS allowed to fly the current jets - Hawker 800 series?
Two crew safety in the deal.

Don't say swept wing...
When flown within the proper envelope the swept wing had nothing to do with it.

It is my understanding, not an aircraft owned by the RFDS but more a sub-contract with flight crew to the RFDS. So not possible for RFDS crew to staff it and possibly why it was located at Perth airport (not a RFDS Base).

Eclan
27th Dec 2018, 13:16
It is my understanding, not an aircraft owned by the RFDS but more a sub-contract with flight crew to the RFDS. So not possible for RFDS crew to staff it and possibly why it was located at Perth airport (not a RFDS Base).
Yes but why?

Bend alot
27th Dec 2018, 22:57
Yes but why?
Would need to read the contract between RFDS and the 800 owner/s to answer that.

FGD135
28th Dec 2018, 03:43
It appears you esteemed gentlemen are talking more about the training that would be required of the typical RFDS PC-12 pilot. Yes, the typical candidate could indeed be trained in 3-4 weeks, but how many of you would then be prepared to send him out on a back-of-the-clock trip, as a single pilot operation, in poor weather?

There is a certain amount of "jet like" experience you would want him to have gained first. Experience comes from mistakes, but mistakes take time.


Merry Christmas, by the way, to you all.

Global Aviator
28th Dec 2018, 08:00
Yes to the specialised op, once you have that under control a plane is a plane.

A jet is easier to fly than a twin piston or turbo prop, not to mention ASETPA and escape procedures.

Do Aussies like to make everything aviation sound hard?

thorn bird
28th Dec 2018, 08:34
"Do Aussies like to make everything aviation sound hard?"

Ever heard of CAsA??

machtuk
28th Dec 2018, 10:14
It appears you esteemed gentlemen are talking more about the training that would be required of the typical RFDS PC-12 pilot. Yes, the typical candidate could indeed be trained in 3-4 weeks, but how many of you would then be prepared to send him out on a back-of-the-clock trip, as a single pilot operation, in poor weather?

There is a certain amount of "jet like" experience you would want him to have gained first. Experience comes from mistakes, but mistakes take time. I Hope CASA keep the reigns tight on this mob till the experience is there!


Merry Christmas, by the way, to you all.


FGD you are wasting your time here, most simply don't get it!
There's insurance considerations, previous jet experience for Capts (assuming 2 crew Ops) most seem to think it's easy to step into a jet & fly off into the sunset, it's not otherwise insurance Co's wouldn't have min requirements & there would be dozens of guys ready to take a plane to 45000 ft for the first time like its a C172! Still will be an interesting next 12 months!

TBM-Legend
28th Dec 2018, 12:24
Ronny RAAF has been sending pilots aloft in single engine jets solo with less than 200 hrs then into solo night flying and cross countries. Two things keep an aircraft flying: it's the attitude and the attitude!

Stop deriding people's efforts and look for the positives...

Eclan
28th Dec 2018, 12:48
A jet is easier to fly than a twin piston or turbo prop, not to mention ASETPA and escape procedures.
A turbo prop is a lot easier to control profile in than a jet. This is widely known.
Profile management Is one of the main focuses of jet training for a good reason.
Let's mot be making rash statements.

Bend alot
28th Dec 2018, 13:29
A turbo prop is a lot easier to control profile in than a jet. This is widely known.
Profile management Is one of the main focuses of jet training for a good reason.
Let's mot be making rash statements.
Yep requires the very big watch to follow the profile.

The funny part is I just watched a house hunters TV show.

He told me he was an "Airline Pilot" more than 4 times!

Still not sure if he fly's a C402 or a A380 but can not get into a hammock.

VLJ's are doomed as we need astronauts to fly them- never could a PPL ever handle one.

t_cas
29th Dec 2018, 00:14
Ronny RAAF has been sending pilots aloft in single engine jets solo with less than 200 hrs then into solo night flying and cross countries. Two things keep an aircraft flying: it's the attitude and the attitude!

Stop deriding people's efforts and look for the positives...
I will pipe in here.

Attitude.

That is a very under rated ingredient.

The RAAF, and for that matter, many military operations do send young candidates out in high performance jets.

There is a major difference between military (government) and civilian operations.

The military will have a good handle on the personality and formative training and discipline of the candidate before said candidate even arrives at the controls of a high performance jet or turboprop.

The candidate operates on their own (CRM deficiencies will NOT be exposed at this point) and any cockups are on them alone with no one else to blame. Military discipline and management of poor discretion should be blunt and final.

Civilian training rarely, if ever, would have such discretion to offer the amounts provided by the taxpayers of any country involved in military training, or the latitude to unilaterally scrub a candidate at any point along the syllabus.

It may be said that some single pilot only jocks from the military, do not often make the most pleasant or efficient operators in an airline (commercial) environment. Indeed even some who have multi crew experience can also be a less than ideal fit into commercial operations. There are those who transition extremely well.

Of course the flip side is also true of civilian operators. Many a competent, efficient and safe pilot was not backed by the military. One reason possible is rate of learning. Of course, there are also terrible outcomes from this avenue also. Military products generally have better tactical handling ability. This basic skill is fundamental and well ingrained.

As far as China Southern et al, it comes down to having a citation instead of a C310 and the money to throw at it. I would not suggest that one outcome is better than the other. That comes downs to delivery and final outcome of the product and inherent skills. The pilot.

Having competent and effective delivery of training is fundamental. The candidate must be competent and highly motivated. A lack of either ingredient is often displayed on these forums, or indeed the statistics of many operations.

It does cost more and is less forgiving to conduct any form of training in a higher performance and more expensive, less forgiving platform.

LeadSled
29th Dec 2018, 03:44
It appears you esteemed gentlemen are talking more about the training that would be required of the typical RFDS PC-12 pilot. Yes, the typical candidate could indeed be trained in 3-4 weeks, but how many of you would then be prepared to send him out on a back-of-the-clock trip, as a single pilot operation, in poor weather?

FGD135,
Serious question --- do you actually have any experience on "jet" aircraft?
As to the question you ask, my answer is YES.
As for one of you worried about "profile control" --- your problem is?
Tootle pip!!

megan
29th Dec 2018, 23:20
the typical candidate could indeed be trained in 3-4 weeks, but how many of you would then be prepared to send him out on a back-of-the-clock trip, as a single pilot operation, in poor weather? If you're not happy to send the individual out it means the training was far less than required. You only release a competent person to the line.

machtuk
30th Dec 2018, 08:00
If you're not happy to send the individual out it means the training was far less than required. You only release a competent person to the line.

That's a very naïve comment !
Nobody knows how a new released to line pilot will handle the job, the day you check someone to line means no more than his/her perf on the day!
Welcome to the real world!!!!!

compressor stall
30th Dec 2018, 14:26
Now there’s an own goal for your team of two..

The T&Cs will know how s/he will go - as good as is reasonably possible - cos the pilot has been doing it for years and knows the real world environmental traps. Their strengths and weaknesses will be known.

megan
31st Dec 2018, 00:29
Too true CS. Chap with beaucoup night turbine time gained a position with an outback medical provider. Got through the training no sweat, until doing the supervised introduction to the line. Had difficulty doing night visual approaches to the typical cattle station strip on black nights, to the point the operator had to let him go. His previous night work had been flying between two ILS equipped airports located in major urban areas, so even a night visual approach still had the T-VASI for guidance. machtuk, I'm well aware there are operators who, perhaps for financial reasons (I've flown with some of their products), pencil whip training. That's the real world, but not as it should be. As to the performance on the day you mention, training should encompass far, far more than a day, my last job took two weeks of flying and ground school to get checked to line, and that having thousands of hours already in the aircraft, and it was a single engine VFR job. Some do it properly, some don't. In my naïvety am I to assume you don't?

morno
1st Jan 2019, 14:30
FGD135,
Serious question --- do you actually have any experience on "jet" aircraft?
As to the question you ask, my answer is YES.
As for one of you worried about "profile control" --- your problem is?
Tootle pip!!

Appears that FGD doesn’t have any jet experience, judging by his lack of response. Therefore pretty much everything he has contributed on the topic in regards to training and jet operation is all crap.

megle2
8th Jan 2019, 08:14
I guess the local Pilatus agent does the maintenance. Haven’t they been bought by the new Beech Cessna owners who are also ditching the Hawker Pacific agency arrangement. Will that force the 24 to go someplace else

AlNayhan
24th Mar 2019, 07:16
On Jan 2017 a second PC12 was announced for Broome.

2016/2017 Review (so after June 2017) "With its 15-strong crew of doctors, nurses and pilots, and new state of-the-art patient treatment centre, the RFDS in Broome has delivered much needed capacity to respond to emergencies throughout the Kimberley and Pilbara."

This crew of 15 staff cover the operation of 2 aircraft and cover for staff days off and sickness reserves we can assume.

So if currently 2 pilots are on active duty and a 3rd is on standby in case one falls ill, with the addition of another aircraft would an extra standby pilot be required on this roster , or just an extra pilot on active duty?

They could always cut costs and share with the CareFlight paramedics over at Hamersley townhouses or PHI lads at the Oaks...hahahah

holdingagain
22nd May 2019, 02:30
There is a new promo video out showing a dirt retrieval, is it real


www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0aQtBTNxWg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.pprune.org/www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0aQtBTNxWg&feature=youtu.be)

Capn Bloggs
22nd May 2019, 02:44
There is a new promo video out showing a dirt retrieval, is it real
Nope, it's not! ;)

Interesting video from the 6'Oclock... how'd they get that?

ie dead link from Prune, OK if copy and paste

B58
22nd May 2019, 04:05
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-05-19/pilatus-opens-order-book-pc-24-jet-ebace

apparently have been working on dirt runway certification alongside RFDSWA and now working on grass runway certification according to this article

AlNayhan
22nd May 2019, 04:18
I little birdie tells me that the PC24 isn't doing to well from a finance point of view. Running costs are way too expensive and servicing is hard. Even heard they may have offered it for sale to a private provider servicing oil and gas out of KTA. C
can it be so?

machtuk
22nd May 2019, 04:35
I little birdie tells me that the PC24 isn't doing to well from a finance point of view. Running costs are way too expensive and servicing is hard. Even heard they may have offered it for sale to a private provider servicing oil and gas out of KTA. C
can it be so?

There's a LOT more going on behind the scenes with this bird! A few have egg on their faces, it's VERY limiting, interesting times ahead for sure:-) I wish them well with the machine:-)

Capt Fathom
22nd May 2019, 05:07
Here it is here.

RFDS PC-24 video.

illusion
22nd May 2019, 09:47
I hope RFDS did not was their tax free $$$ on that slick video. A jet landing on a dirt strip. Woopie dooo!! A B350 would have been a smarter deal operationally, pilot endo, flexibility wise. Royal Darwin Hospital is a lot closer than Perth for northern WA; an extra 100 kts TAS would make 3 parts of fxxk all difference to a clinical outcome ( which is actually the objective might I suggest). To correctly operate a >5700kg jet from a given runway a type A obstacle survey is usually required- how many dirt strips have that?

glekichi
22nd May 2019, 12:38
To correctly operate a >5700kg jet from a given runway a type A obstacle survey is usually required- how many dirt strips have that?

Hmm. Guess Alliance, Air North, Network, maybe even Jetstar, have a lot to answer for then.

holdingagain
22nd May 2019, 19:55
No not at all. Other than the major mining strips you would be hard pressed to find a surveyed dirt ala

tartare
23rd May 2019, 03:44
I hope RFDS did not was their tax free $$$ on that slick video.

I suspect it was probably funded by Pilatus... not the RFDS.

glekichi
23rd May 2019, 09:51
Tongue in cheek point was almost none of those mining strips have Type A charts, despite being surveyed.
But yes I`m curious as to if/how they operate to non surveyed ALAs.

Desert Flower
26th May 2019, 12:04
This is the Adelaide based one. Reckon the W.A. based one has done a few unsealed strip landings since its inception.

DF.

0ttoL
27th May 2019, 00:30
Sorry about the Facebook link, but couldn't find this elsewhere.
7 News segment shows a bit more about how the Pilatus video (above) was shot.
https://www.facebook.com/7NewsAustralia/posts/2862574317086076

Or Google: "They said it couldn't be done - landing"

Capn Bloggs
27th May 2019, 00:51
Thanks, Otto. Chop chop chopper right up your clacker!

megle2
27th May 2019, 06:45
Don’t think there was any doubt about the 24 landing on unpaved surfaces. Lear’s Westwinds Hawkers Citations have all done it in Aus. It’s more the challenge of getting Casa out of the way

Desert Flower
27th May 2019, 08:28
Don’t think there was any doubt about the 24 landing on unpaved surfaces. Lear’s Westwinds Hawkers Citations have all done it in Aus. It’s more the challenge of getting Casa out of the way

The classic dirt strip landing on an unpaved surface I ever saw was a Citation in Crocodile Dundee II.

DF.

Okihara
27th May 2019, 08:30
Isn't that one awesome vantage point! The background tune could have been more upbeat. I would have picked Spirit in the sky by Norman Greenbaum.

Desert Flower
27th May 2019, 08:32
Here it is here.

RFDS PC-24 video. (https://youtu.be/z0aQtBTNxWg?t=119)

If anyone is wondering where that was shot, it was at North Well Station - 300km north west of YPAG.

DF.

machtuk
27th May 2019, 11:16
Don’t think there was any doubt about the 24 landing on unpaved surfaces. Lear’s Westwinds Hawkers Citations have all done it in Aus. It’s more the challenge of getting Casa out of the way


I'd like to see that, a Lear, Westwind operating on a gravel Rwy! -:) Got any links?

Capt Fathom
27th May 2019, 11:31
Mount Isa Mines used to operate their Lear 35 off a gravel runway in QLD. Also saw a Citation at the same airfield. Gravel kits installed obviously, but I bet they held their breath every time they went in and out of those strips!

Plenty of info out there in Google and Youtube land if you’re interested!

machtuk
27th May 2019, 11:44
I was looking for YT link of a Learjet with the gravel kit but couldn't find anything hence asking for any links?

smiling monkey
27th May 2019, 12:56
These guys have been flying jets in to gravel strips (https://www.cobhamaviationservices.com/assets/downloads/Gravel_Kit_Information_Sheet_LA.pdf) on a daily basis for the the last 10 years.

megle2
28th May 2019, 02:58
Tuk, too long ago and didn’t take much notice. Capt F is correct. Collinsville was a regular Lear port until FOD got expensive. The Westwind was owned by a construction company and the Hawker was Qld Govt ( Joh’s Jet ).

601
28th May 2019, 12:20
Gravel kits installed obviously, but I bet they held their breath every time they went in and out of those strips!

Not at all.

Oh we had some fun back in the 80's playing with DCA, DOT or whatever flavour it was at the time.

I spent 10 years operating a C550 into and out of all kinds of surfaces, sealed, gravel, dirt and grass. The particular C550 had a FM amendment limiting the MTOW to 5700 kg. Yes, a gravel kit was a requirement that included a bleed air turbine to spin the nosewheel.

As I write this, I am looking at a photo of Ms Young landing the Joh Jet on a blacksoil strip at Malvern Hills near Blackall.

Fred Flintsone
28th May 2019, 13:35
There is a Hawker in Perth as well.

LeadSled
30th May 2019, 08:05
Not at all.

Oh we had some fun back in the 80's playing with DCA, DOT or whatever flavour it was at the time.

I spent 10 years operating a C550 into and out of all kinds of surfaces, sealed, gravel, dirt and grass. The particular C550 had a FM amendment limiting the MTOW to 5700 kg. Yes, a gravel kit was a requirement that included a bleed air turbine to spin the nosewheel.

As I write this, I am looking at a photo of Ms Young landing the Joh Jet on a blacksoil strip at Malvern Hills near Blackall.
Folks,
Back in the day ( Joe's Dreamtime) up on the Cape, a property called Silver Plains changed hands ---- freehold, quite unusual in itself, but possible with a big enough charitable contribution to Joe's Foundation.

Shortly thereafter, there were reported allegations (as in front page of the Courier Mail) of a jet aircraft operation at night out of the Silver Plains strip, unnotified and without lights ---- the implication being that nefarious and dastardly deeds were being committed.

The DCA (for it was they) had a priceless reaction, in a press release DCA said there was no need to investigate unnotified night operations at Silver Plains, as "DCA regulations do not permit the operation of turbine aircraft off unsealed runways" [which, at the time, was correct]
.
Clearly, DCA believed that any drug runner would be fully compliant with the Air Navigation Act and Regulations, and therefor the reports must have been in error.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Would it surprise you if I said DCA was wrong, based on my often presence in the immediate area at the time.

kaz3g
30th May 2019, 09:19
When I worked for the RFDS WA Section many moons ago, I think we had 4 or 5 bases other than Jandakot. Of the 5 they have now only Meka and the Port are the same. Some of the others were covered by the Goldfields section and pretty sure Broome came under the Victorian section back then.

So for much of the RFDS operational history shows they operate from bases - so when a new type is implemented, I don't see why the operation now should operate from a single base when using multiple bases has proved effective.

When I had my station in the Upper Gascoyne, we were serviced by both Carnarvon and Meeka bases as we were pretty much equidistant from both. We had crystals for both bases in the HF and often passed telegrams and urgent messages from people on one to the other.

The plane from Meeka crashed short of the Mt Augustus airstrip one night while trying to transport one of the Hammerquist kids who had fallen off a mustering wagon and had head injuries. No fatalities all round thank goodness and thank goodness for the flying doc.

Kaz

pithblot
30th May 2019, 09:55
The RFDS had two nasty PA31 accidents in 1981

VH-KMS in April, in the Kalgoorlie area,

VH-DEE in July at Mt Augustus


VH-KMS
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=27164


VH-DEE
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=27213

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiFeaYuXHSE

kaz3g
The plane from Meeka crashed short of the Mt Augustus airstrip one night while trying to transport one of the Hammerquist kids who had fallen off a mustering wagon and had head injuries. No fatalities all round thank goodness and thank goodness for the flying doc.

machtuk
1st Jun 2019, 22:51
Just watched the CH7 weekend Sunrise show about the PC24, first time a jet has landed on a dirt Rwy anywhere in Australia, just amazing....cough cough! -:) showed the unveiling of a PC12 in a hangar, I guess the general public wouldn't know the diff anyway -:)
I wish the service well -:)

fl610
2nd Jun 2019, 00:18
Just watched the CH7 weekend Sunrise show about the PC24, first time a jet has landed on a dirt Rwy anywhere in Australia, just amazing....cough cough! -:) showed the unveiling of a PC12 in a hangar, I guess the general public wouldn't know the diff anyway -:)
I wish the service well -:)

https://youtu.be/WVDfVfvElAQ

Global Aviator
2nd Jun 2019, 00:22
Channel 7, sunrise... Did you have nothing better to do on a Sunday... :)

Total disregard for the commercial televised ‘news’.

But as ya say Jo public wouldn’t know the diff. Let’s get GT to give his opinion hehehehe!

Gravel... Watched a Slowtation on gravel, wasn’t impressed with his sand blasting of my Cessna turning around thou. A few words were spoken :).

The 24 really looked like it was going to be the machine, will more time prove it is?

machtuk
2nd Jun 2019, 00:54
….yeah sorry I was summoned over to view the PC24 on the TV, being grubby CH7 nothing surprised me, I just shook my head & thought Mr & Mrs Joe Public really love this stuff:-)
The amount of times that this jet will be required for unpaved Rwy operations will be minimal, the 'Rufdus' will only do this if the mission is time critical & there are no other options. The first time they hit an animal that will be that!

Loved the sultry music in that F28 propaganda Vid:-)...and gee whiz a jet landing on gravel before the PC24, wonders never cease....again cough cough:-)

fl610
2nd Jun 2019, 01:27
Loved the sultry music in that F28 propaganda Vid:-)...and gee whiz a jet landing on gravel before the PC24, wonders never cease....again cough cough:-)[/QUOTE]

.......yeah it was only 50 years ago!! I guess modern journos don't have much at their disposal for research any more! :rolleyes: Them carnt spel eva!

Global Aviator
2nd Jun 2019, 02:23
In my eyes though the PC24 defo has a role.

There is a lot of intra hospital patient transfer in Aus, look at the Darwin - Adelaide tender alone.

Take away the running costs look at the OH & S side of the operation with that great PC12/Beech 200 loading door. Certainly much better than the fun with Hawker 400/Nextant, CL601/4, Hawker, Falcon, Citation, etc.

How does the 24 compare on the running costs?

Does it have the 2000nm legs?

machtuk
2nd Jun 2019, 05:54
In my eyes though the PC24 defo has a role.

There is a lot of intra hospital patient transfer in Aus, look at the Darwin - Adelaide tender alone.

Take away the running costs look at the OH & S side of the operation with that great PC12/Beech 200 loading door. Certainly much better than the fun with Hawker 400/Nextant, CL601/4, Hawker, Falcon, Citation, etc.

How does the 24 compare on the running costs?

Does it have the 2000nm legs?



No one wants to put a dampener on the RFDS choices but the PC 24 is very limiting, they are finding this out right about now!
It's a LOT heavier than they anticipated fully set up for the role, that obviously has it's down sides.
With full gas which is needed for the advertised 2000NM range at LR cruise 1 x pilot (400 kts at best under ideal conditions mind ya) it has around 360 Kg payload, add in the full medical set up it can carry at best 2 people, the rest ain't rocket science to figure out!
Great machine BUT the boffins who wanted it only wear suits!

megle2
2nd Jun 2019, 07:59
Maybe ( just joking ) the 24 would be perfect for that hospital in Yes Minister that had no patients!

FGD135
6th Jun 2019, 13:01
This is the Adelaide based one. Reckon the W.A. based one has done a few unsealed strip landings since its inception.
DF.
Yes, I too reckon the WA ones must have done quite a few unsealed strip landings and takeoffs, given how much this capability was talked up in the media and PR fanfare that accompanied the aircraft's arrival into Australia.

Perhaps someone from Western Section can enlighten us.

Desert Flower
6th Jun 2019, 22:51
Adelaide based one done its first medevac yesterday - YBAS to YMEN. Trip from YPAD to YBAS to pick up patient took 1 hour 59 minutes. Trip from YBAS to YMEN took 2 hours & 54 minutes, whereas same trip in PC12 would have taken over 5 hours, including a stop at YBHI to refuel. Trip from YMEN back to YPAD took 1 hour 8 minutes.

DF.

harrryw
7th Jun 2019, 08:43
Isn't the landing speed of the P24 much lower than that of the other jets mentioned and in fact even slower than many small turbine equivalents. This should make gravel landings a lot more manageable.

FGD135
12th Jun 2019, 04:35
Hmm. Still no enlightenment from our friends from Western Section. Let's try again.

Yes, I too reckon the WA ones must have done quite a few unsealed strip landings and takeoffs, given how much this capability was talked up in the media and PR fanfare that accompanied the aircraft's arrival into Australia.

Perhaps someone from Western Section can enlighten us.

megle2
12th Jun 2019, 06:39
As there seems to be no PR or fanfare for natural surface ( non town / mining sites ) operations it’s not unreasonable to assume that the PC24 hasn’t ventured there yet. Maybe still putting approvals / exemptions in place with casa

machtuk
12th Jun 2019, 07:59
As there seems to be no PR or fanfare for natural surface ( non town / mining sites ) operations it’s not unreasonable to assume that the PC24 hasn’t ventured there yet. Maybe still putting approvals / exemptions in place with casa



There is plenty going on behind the scenes in this regard. With the limitations that the RFDS are now only finding out about their new flash supposedly "all capable" flying machine 'off road' operations will be strictly limited to "no other option" flights.
The so called 'first' operational flight recently AS-EN (sealed to sealed Rwy) took over 30 mins longer than conventional jets currently in operation means the 'urgency' is not there!

LeadSled
12th Jun 2019, 08:26
Folks,
It is really grossly premature to start condemning or otherwise this aircraft in its role with the RFDS, my best guess would be a year or two of operation until a real assessment of its best use can be made.
It does have capabilities that make it well suited for the job, particularly the big back door, trailing link main gear and quite low approach speeds, to name just a couple that come to mind --- give it time for everybody to work out the best integration into the system.
But I guess the perpetual knockers can't help themselves.
Tootle pip!!

megle2
12th Jun 2019, 10:07
“ But I guess the perpetual knockers can't help themselves “ No not at all. There is lot of interest in this project. It’s reasonable to expect some positive results a lot sooner than your suggested two years.

tio540
12th Jun 2019, 10:35
Folks,
It is really grossly premature to start condemning or otherwise this aircraft in its role with the RFDS, my best guess would be a year or two of operation until a real assessment of its best use can be made.
It does have capabilities that make it well suited for the job, particularly the big back door, trailing link main gear and quite low approach speeds, to name just a couple that come to mind --- give it time for everybody to work out the best integration into the system.
But I guess the perpetual knockers can't help themselves.
Tootle pip!!

It should become apparent immediately that a jet with no APU is unsuitable for patient transfers, in 40+ degree heat. Most ambulances have been airconditoned since the 1980’s.

machtuk
12th Jun 2019, 10:56
The PC does have onboard APU ability, just not the normal set up.

compressor stall
12th Jun 2019, 11:16
A

It should become apparent immediately that a jet with no APU is unsuitable for patient transfers, in 40+ degree heat. Most ambulances have been airconditoned since the 1980’s.

it is immediately apparent that you have no knowledge of the aircraft systems.

tio540
12th Jun 2019, 11:55
A
it is immediately apparent that you have no knowledge of the aircraft systems.

I have used jets with, and without, APU, for patient transfer. Do you have any questions I can answer?