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meadowrun
12th Nov 2018, 10:27
Never have looked up the dictionary definition of "Nationalism".
No need. Quite happy with what I perceive it to be.
Pride in country, pride in being that country's citizen, willing to support your country's goals with enthusiasm.
Unless, of course, your country is being run by raving lunatics, and that's your fault in the end.

So, Trump, For. (pretty sure he doesn't quite know what it is, just another slogan to rally repeat.)
Macron, Against. (hard to believe from a ffrenchman)
and I imagine wide ranging opinions of the many aspects and many shades of grey in personal definitions.
Good thing ,bad thing, bit of both?

Pontius Navigator
12th Nov 2018, 10:34
Bad if you're Johnny Foreigner.

Eddie Dean
12th Nov 2018, 14:18
Nationalism Is good

I Claudius
12th Nov 2018, 14:40
Hard to believe from a Frenchman!

He has surrended to the globalists, long ago.

( in true French fashion )

SpringHeeledJack
12th Nov 2018, 14:43
There is a tipping point when nationalism becomes toxic, but we often forget that when 'it' goes below a certain point the same happens. Countries that become too diluted, as in with too few of a collective mind, start the journey to obsolescence.

G0ULI
12th Nov 2018, 14:45
If there is a sense of social cohesiveness in any given society or group, then nationalism arises as a natural progression of a developing sense of identity. Nationalism is inevitable.

Just a spotter
12th Nov 2018, 15:19
There issue I have regularly seen with those strongly expressing pride in their nationality, is that they have very often lacked a full and balanced view of the impact, both negative and positive, their nation and State has had both at home and abroad. From my experience of traveling across Europe, North America and Asia, most who loudly trumpet their pride in their nation and nationality have a very "rose tinted glasses" view of their history and often are poorly informed of the warts in their national story, not to mention sometimes complete mythology passed off a positive history.

That said, no one citizen of a State or member of a nation is responsible for the past and current actions of their place of birth.

IMHO a well informed pride with humility in one's nationality is not necessarily a bad thing, however, jingoism, xenophobia and supremacist expressions, masquerading as nationalism and national pride should be pointed out and condemned.

As we have just marked the 100th anniversary of the end of the first industrial slaughter in Europe, it's worth keeping a perspective on history and what it tells us about the dangers of those wrapping themselves in their flag in the name of nationalism and pride in order to further their own agenda.

JAS

Krystal n chips
12th Nov 2018, 17:30
Never have looked up the dictionary definition of "Nationalism".
No need. Quite happy with what I perceive it to be.
Pride in country, pride in being that country's citizen, willing to support your country's goals with enthusiasm.
Unless, of course, your country is being run by raving lunatics, and that's your fault in the end.

So, Trump, For. (pretty sure he doesn't quite know what it is, just another slogan to rally repeat.)
Macron, Against. (hard to believe from a ffrenchman)
and I imagine wide ranging opinions of the many aspects and many shades of grey in personal definitions.
Good thing ,bad thing, bit of both?
It's a shame you didn't look up the definition, because if you had you may have found this.....nationalism/ˈnaʃ(ə)n(ə)lɪz(ə)m/nounnoun: nationalism

patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts."an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"synonyms:patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality; Morexenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism, flag-waving, isolationism; ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity"the resurgence of nationalism in Europe and in other parts of the world"





an extreme form of patriotism marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.plural noun: nationalisms"playing with right-wing nationalism"


advocacy of political independence for a particular country."Scottish nationalism

Cut and pasted to save anybody wondering...however....there's more than a few definitions which can be associated with the UK in the above.....bit of bad news here chaps, we've repealed public executions for anybody who dares to have a different opinion as to the UK's history, culture and self perceived status in the world.....albeit every nation could equally be said to have similar traits over the years.

The problem is, the term has been hijacked to enhance the very worse traits, jingoism, patriotism being just two, as a convenient way to stir up emotions and thereafter transfer these feelings into another well established global human trait......the capacity to needlessly kill other humans just for the sake of being able to do so at times. Humans, and their emotions are, after all, the most self destructive species on the planet.

Cornish Jack
12th Nov 2018, 17:56
Was it not the great Dr Samuel Johnson who defined it most succinctly as " the last refuge of the scoundrel"
At 80 + and nearly half of that in uniform, I reckon the old boy got it about right,!! Looking at the most recent high-profile examples of apostles of Nationalism, we are faced with a meddling 'pot-stirrer' more suited to entertaining at a party for 4 year olds, and a relic from the turn of the (19th) century, both with the joie-de-vivre of Dickensian morticians. Given the less-than-inspiring efforts of (all) of our political elite, what on earth possessed a largish proportion of the population to opt for giving them the reins of power? Convivial get-togethers in breweries, maybe? :rolleyes: :ugh:

meadowrun
12th Nov 2018, 18:03
"In 1774, he printed The Patriot, a critique of what he viewed as false patriotism. On the evening of 7 April 1775, he made the famous statement, "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." This line was not, as is widely believed, about patriotism in general, but the false use of the term "patriotism" by William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham (the patriot-minister) and his supporters. Johnson opposed "self-professed patriots" in general, but valued what he considered "true" self-professed patriotism".

Pontius Navigator
12th Nov 2018, 20:02
CJ, I would say it is a failure of the Electoral Commission to put 'none of the above ' on the ballot paper. If NOTA won then all candidates are rejected and the two parties with the highest number of votes can put up two new candidates.

Could be fun.
​​​​​

bafanguy
12th Nov 2018, 21:16
The problem is, the term has been hijacked to enhance the very worse traits...

It's just another word tossed around for some perceived political advantage. The fuzzier the "definition" and the more it evokes strong emotions, the more utility it has. These words have so many "definitions" that they have no definition...and people seem to like it that way. Having to confine a discussion to facts related to a solid, agreed-upon definition would end much of what passes for debate.

obgraham
12th Nov 2018, 21:33
Being lectured to by the French on the evils of Nationalism is, indeed, a wry commentary.

ShotOne
13th Nov 2018, 00:00
Indeed. How did he manage to say it with a straight face? Particularly since French relations with EU have been probably more determinedly based on national self-interest than any other member and it was (I assume) a dig at Brexit.

Tankertrashnav
13th Nov 2018, 00:49
Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc. Same goes for being black or white , male or female, straight or gay etc

All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of. I am proud of once having been an RAF navigator, or of gaining a Russian degree at age 47 - but of all the rest I am pleased I am British, but I am certainly not proud of the fact The other side of the coin is I am not ashamed of many things which others would wish me to be. I have not the slightest twinge of guilt about the worst excesses of the British Empire, the Irish famine, the slave trade etc, for the simple reason I wasn't around then - nothing to do with me.

So nationalism? Definitely a bad thing (very bad as a certain well known nationalist might add ;))

JCviggen
13th Nov 2018, 07:22
Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc. Same goes for being black or white , male or female, straight or gay etc

All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of. I am proud of once having been an RAF navigator, or of gaining a Russian degree at age 47 - but of all the rest I am pleased I am British, but I am certainly not proud of the fact The other side of the coin is I am not ashamed of many things which others would wish me to be. I have not the slightest twinge of guilt about the worst excesses of the British Empire, the Irish famine, the slave trade etc, for the simple reason I wasn't around then - nothing to do with me.

So nationalism? Definitely a bad thing (very bad as a certain well known nationalist might add ;))

Couldn't agree more.

As with anything, like religion, nationalism in a modest dose doesn't hurt but it doesn't really do much good either. If we identified as humans first and wherever we happened to be born through chance second, odds are we'd have had less wars and conflicts along the line. Nationalism is also a dangerously effective tool to get the masses behind a leader, whatever his intentions may be, as history has shown time and again.

Andy_S
13th Nov 2018, 09:07
Looking at the most recent high-profile examples of apostles of Nationalism, we are faced with a meddling 'pot-stirrer' more suited to entertaining at a party for 4 year olds, and a relic from the turn of the (19th) century, both with the joie-de-vivre of Dickensian morticians.

I assume you’re referring to BoJo and Jacob Rees-Mogg, neither of whom I would particularly regard as being “apostles of nationalism”. Are your opinions coloured by their high profile support for Brexit perhaps?

chuks
13th Nov 2018, 10:35
Mother was a nationalist, of a sort. Anyone who asked, she was "Irish," even though she was a third-generation American citizen. Mostly what it meant was that she carried an ancient grudge against Great Britain, I think, and one that was much more fresh against her WASP neighbors from the little town she grew up in, Derby, Connecticut. There was a pecking order there with the WASPs first, the Irish second, the Italians third, and the Polacks last. (Mother liked to tell us how the Polish Falcons usually ended their picnics with a donnybrook. I wonder where she got that word .... )

I once had Phil the Greek in the back of our taxi, taking him back and forth from Kano to Nguru, Nigeria because of his then- role with the WWF. At the end of the trip, like the gentleman he is, he shook our hands, mine and my Captain's, and kidded us a bit about the quality of Nigerian ATC handling. (The controller first wanted to put us in a hold because there was a VIP flight arriving, not understanding that our Twin Otter was the VIP flight. That one sorted, he then wanted to vector us to a ten-mile turn onto final .... Jesus wept.) I took due care never to tell Mother that I had once shaken the hand of one of her arch-enemies.

People who like, or need, to wrap themselves in some flag are just showing how limited they are. It's notable that Trump likes to do that while being completely unwilling to endure even a trip in the rain to honor some of those who actually fought for our flag, let alone to have fought for it himself. (I understand that some wars are better than others, so that the one I attended, the same one Trump dodged, was a pretty poor show even judged by the low standards we apply to wars waged against Third World countries. That said, though, one could argue that it was good that we showed our willingness to fight against "Global Communism" in an era when that might have been more of a real threat. We can dismiss the "Domino Effect" now, with hindsight, but it might have become more real in the Sixties if we had just let the Republic of Vietnam go under without any effort at all.)

Have a look at those two figures who did make it to the Aisnes-Marne cemetery, retired general Kelley and General Dunford, stood there in the rain saluting while Taps was being sounded. Kelley is giving the proper salute, right hand on heart, civilian-style, for someone in civilian garb. Think about the sort of salute hatless, respectless, brainless Trump usually throws, the military style one with his right hand raised to his bouffant. Okay, maybe he needs to draw attention to his hairdo, but it's the wrong sort of salute even so. Then there is that revolting image of him grabbing the flag the same way he likes to grope his daughter, his style of nationalism. Call me a globalist!

cavortingcheetah
13th Nov 2018, 10:43
Here is empirical evidence that the concept of empire, evil in the names of ambitious men, has once again in Europe's tortured history of dictators and demagogues, superseded nationality. The past, the past, one is aghast!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6381521/France-calls-Europe-Empire-rival-China-US.html

dr dre
13th Nov 2018, 11:18
Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc. Same goes for being black or white , male or female, straight or gay etc

All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of.

I am pleased I am British, but I am certainly not proud of the fact

Have you been channeling the late, great George Carlin? ;)

George Carlin on national and ethnic pride

KenV
13th Nov 2018, 13:38
Never understood why people can say they are proud to be English - or Scottish, Irish, American, Polish, Chinese or Australian etc etc.
All of these are accidents of birth and are nothing to be proud of. Hmmmm. I was born in a muslim nation, the most populous on the planet, emigrated to America and BECAME an American. It had nothing to do with my birth and was most certainly not an "accident." And yes, I am a nationalist and quite proud to call myself an American.

SpringHeeledJack
13th Nov 2018, 14:43
Is your surname Obama ? ;-)

Shack37
13th Nov 2018, 15:54
Originally posted by SHJ
Is your surname Obama ? ;-)

Was Obama born in a muslim nation?
Was it the most populous on the planet?

obgraham
13th Nov 2018, 16:12
When it comes to Nationalism, denial of human nature is not a recipe for peace. It will work for a little while, until some group or nationality decides they tire of being told what to do and how to think, and exerts their own best interests.

Better to learn to deal with it, accept that people are different from place to place, and that each will act in his own group's best interests.

None of this excuses violence towards other groups.

racedo
13th Nov 2018, 16:52
It is noticeable that the people deriding Nationalism are "billionaires" quite happy to rip a country off and seeking to destroy any people's pride in their nation. If you destroy the nation state then you can make up something they can be proud of collectively.

Only problem is there is nothing collective for people to collect around but they looking at consumerism. Bit like Hitler destroying religion and then wanting an Aryan religion for people to worship.

KenV
13th Nov 2018, 17:53
Originally posted by SHJ
Was Obama born in a muslim nation?
Was it the most populous on the planet?No but he lived there for several years in his youth. Not too far from where I lived for a time, but separated by many years.

Tankertrashnav
13th Nov 2018, 18:35
KenV - you misunderstand my point. In your case you may have taken steps to become something which you weren't when you were born (in Indonesia I assume) . In that case you may feel pride in having taken those steps. If those steps were taken on your behalf (in your infancy for example) then you have no justification in feeling pride, although you may most certainly be pleased at your good fortune.

Hempy
14th Nov 2018, 07:32
“The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, whilst the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does”

ShotOne
14th Nov 2018, 08:27
It’ll be interesting to see the practical difference between those definitions. That’s if M Macron actually gets round to reforming anything as opposed to just talking about it.

Tankertrashnav
14th Nov 2018, 12:02
Have you been channeling the late, great George Carlin? https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Actually I had never heard of the man, but I agree 100% with what he said :ok:

Chronus
14th Nov 2018, 20:38
Never have looked up the dictionary definition of "Nationalism".
No need. Quite happy with what I perceive it to be.
Pride in country, pride in being that country's citizen, willing to support your country's goals with enthusiasm.


Yes it once mean that. It changed with the coming of the National Socialist German Workers Party (NAZI) to power back in the previous century. From then it took its modern meaning of bigotry, racial, ethnic, religious intolerance and hatred. That`s where it stands now. Leaving a person in a difficult position on how to express his devotion, his total committment to his own people, one who is willing to lay down his life for his own people. It is not a matter of identity alone, it is also a matter of belonging. Not just where a person belongs to, but also to whom they belong.
Many an empire where built on the principles of Domocracy ( derived from the Greek word Thromo, road ), not to be confused with Democracy. All roads lead to Rome may be a good illustration. None are left today. Where do all the roads lead to today.
It has been said language is the glue that binds nations. I cannot really see that there is now enough of that sort of glue left to bind the many, the much greater numbers that are now involved in population shifts that would have once been of the scale of single nations.

BVRAAM
14th Nov 2018, 21:20
Nationalism is fine until it goes beyond pride and belief in your country, and it starts to swing towards hatred for others.

Just think of it as an alternative to globalism. Globalism, too, is fine until you start literally giving away jobs to other countries. Work together, sure... but have the interests of your own country at the top of your priorities.

ShotOne
18th Nov 2018, 22:37
So now M. Macron’s new mission is to unite Europe “to prevent the world slipping into global chaos..”. Seriously? And with no trace of irony while his own country is littered with blazing roadblocks and hundreds injured. Perhaps a bit of focus on the day-job required?

ehwatezedoing
19th Nov 2018, 01:47
So now M. Macron’s new mission is to unite Europe “to prevent the world slipping into global chaos..”. Seriously? And with no trace of irony while his own country is littered with blazing roadblocks and hundreds injured. Perhaps a bit of focus on the day-job required?
I do know what a not unified Europe did in the last century. And twice! So I see his point.

Nationalism for me is synonym of regression, it is futile, we are all living on the same planet.
Take 50 isolated villages thinking only for themselves. They won't go as far as the same ones united to progress.
This doesn't mean you have to give up your identity for that, just unite your forces, become stronger, progress faster.

obgraham
19th Nov 2018, 04:06
Nationalism for me is synonym of regression, it is futile, we are all living on the same planet.
Take 50 isolated villages thinking only for themselves. They won't go as far as the same ones united to progress.
This doesn't mean you have to give up your identity for that, just unite your forces, become stronger, progress faster. That's a good plan, until you come up against some other guys, who have united THEIR forces, with a plan to eliminate you and YOUR forces.

ShotOne
19th Nov 2018, 11:16
Macron wasn’t speaking of uniting Europe but, rather grandly, preventing GLOBAL chaos. It could be argued that weakening a genuinely international organisation (NATO) of proven effectiveness in favour of an EU Army under, practically speaking, Franco-German control is a regressive step towards nationalism.

arketip
19th Nov 2018, 11:28
That's a good plan, until you come up against some other guys, who have united THEIR forces, with a plan to eliminate you and YOUR forces.

That's why Macron wants a European army to protect against the USA, Russia and China

funfly
19th Nov 2018, 16:21
Nationalism is a curse when it describes the feeling of superiority over others.
I am English and feel lucky to be born into a Western society. But proud to be British? what's that all about?
I look around at the others who claim their pride in being British, tattooed necked, "bring back hanging", "put homosexuals in prison", people who want to go back to the 1950s having never lived in that period.
The "Let's get as far away from other countries as possible, all our problems are caused by Johnny Foreigner" brigade.
Have a look around in your local shopping centre, at your local doctor's surgery, at motorway service stations, on Ryanair flights.
Proud to be part of this mob?
Not just in the UK though I am sorry to say.

Sprogget
19th Nov 2018, 17:44
^^^ That's the end point of nationalism. One can argue the toss over an elastic concept yet it's always observable that patently the worst elements in political society almost invariably involve people who would describe themselves as nationalists. The IRA are nationalists too, are they not?

sitigeltfel
19th Nov 2018, 17:50
I'm proud to be Asian, says the Indian.
I'm proud to be Oriental, says the Chinese.
I'm proud to be African, says the Nigerian.
I'm proud to be Arabic, says the Moroccan.
I'm proud to be British, says the racist.

pax britanica
19th Nov 2018, 19:26
Wel some good points made their- nationalism with a very small n is fine-I support England at football but otherwise I am European -ethnically and socially.
Europe has seen what has been done in the name of nationalism and apart from the UK it seems doesnt want any more of it. In Uk we are edging towards a sort of nazi state especially if Boris and Rees Mogg get anywhere near power and at the moment we are pretty clsoe to the shambles that was Wiemar especially with talk of needing 'Strong Leaders' and dont say it can't happen here because it could , ignorance and distrust manipulated by crooked politicians is all it needs and we have the first two in spades and it seems a limitless supply of ignorant venal politicians. And Josef Goebels himself could have written the headlines for the Mail Express and teelgraph ona number of occasions.

When it all goes pear shaped when we leave the Eu , which it will to a fair degree whats going to happen to all the working class northerners who voted their job away and the retirees in Shropshire and the Cotswolds who see the NHS sold off to rapacious crooked American HMOs they are going to be pretty angry and will not focus on Eu citizens who are displaced these replacement foreigners wont look or sound or act European like we do will they?

flash8
19th Nov 2018, 20:20
Immigration has destroyed any identity the UK once had, what values? what culture? what religion that binds them? It has all been diluted by PC to such an extent that even showing a Union jack draped from your window is seen as offensive and racist. I know many will disagree but identity was lost years ago, now you have a vacuous state in complete disarray with the population divided, and that is just the indigenous lot. Wear a cross? Not on your nelly, that would "offend" too many of our friends (and pressure groups/identity politics groups). "All things bright and beautiful" in Primary assembly? Possibly a criminal offence.

Blame lays squarely at the feet of politicians, they have literally destroyed the country, and my reckoning is it will get a lot worse, not better, growing up in the 1980's was not just a different era, it was an entirely different planet, haven't over 85% of all jobs since 2000 been taken by foreigners? Can I even use the word "foreigner" anymore or is that racist?

For what its worth: For all its faults Russia (where I live) has maintained its identity. Not that it would be difficult considering over 99.8% of Russia (99.7% Moscow) consists of indigenous native Russians - not trying to rub this in anyone's face (I'm actually part of the other 0.2%) - but it seems to have worked out well. Nationalism here is well... as you'd expect.

Am I racist? Well if being Racist is explaining why your country went down the tube.. yes.

Sprogget
19th Nov 2018, 20:44
What a load of old toot.

flash8
19th Nov 2018, 20:59
What a load of old toot.Believe me I wish it was.

Sprogget
19th Nov 2018, 22:04
Okey dokey, be so good as to point me to a prosecution for All things bright & beautiful then, once you're done crowing over living in a country run by a murderous kleptocrat.

flash8
19th Nov 2018, 23:00
Okey dokey, be so good as to point me to a prosecution for All things bright & beautiful then, once you're done crowing over living in a country run by a murderous kleptocrat.I did say "possibly" actually I mean't it more rhetorically, that is even the Church is under threat. Mind you, some primary schools have withdrawn "Christian" hymns - probably as to not offend other pupils.

As for living in a country run by a "murderous kleptocrat", well, you are entitled to your opinion, and its a bit off topic (although Russia is probably one of the most Nationalistic countries on Earth so that stays on form) but I happen to to disagree with you, don't believe all you read online, most of it is garbage to fit a narrative to pursue an agenda... the bogeyman country... probably no doubt responsible for Brexit as well.

I do think nationalism is linked to unity and cohesion, bad mouth the UK in London and you'll likely get a load of assenting nods.... bad mouth Russia in Moscow.... you are as they say cruisin' for a bruisin'.... they take such things quite seriously.

Andy_S
20th Nov 2018, 08:19
In Uk we are edging towards a sort of nazi state.....

And at that point you lost all credibility.......

Sprogget
20th Nov 2018, 09:13
I did say "possibly" actually I mean't it more rhetorically,

Rhetoric is exactly that, rhetorical. Your claims - hymns lead to prosecution, the state is in disarray, etc. etc. are fantastically ridiculous, it speaks volumes that you double down on them, simultaneously claiming that any critical thinking on Vlad the impaler is...well you know, just opinion.

You seem happy living in a sclerotic economy, overseen by a de facto dictator where journalists & opponents are routinely murdered, any dissent is ruthlessly quashed, foreign territory is seized by a sovereign state by force for the first time since WW2 & agents are sent abroad to kill those viewed as enemies of the state but not to the extent that they are actually sufficiently skilled at not being discovered and all because nationalism is good.

Right. That seems entirely credible...

JCviggen
20th Nov 2018, 10:26
I do think nationalism is linked to unity and cohesion, bad mouth the UK in London and you'll likely get a load of assenting nods.... bad mouth Russia in Moscow.... you are as they say cruisin' for a bruisin'.... they take such things quite seriously.

Not the part of Moscow that I live in. Moscow isn't Chechnya, this is the place where Putin gets just about the lowest electoral margins of the entire very large country.

People who would use their fists against anyone who doesn't agree with or "respect" the coincidental place of their birth/residence are primitives. Nothing more, nothing less and certainly nothing to be proud of.

Also, your stats about native Russians are complete hogwash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia And certainly in places like Moscow, inhabitants from former Soviet republics are vastly under reported, not least because many of them aren't officially here, obviously.

StuBob
20th Nov 2018, 11:05
Macron called it out correctly last week where he said there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Unfortunately those who practice the former are too ignorant to educate themselves of the difference and subtleties which is why they are nationalists and not considered patriots.

flash8
20th Nov 2018, 13:23
Not the part of Moscow that I live in. Moscow isn't ChechnyaI don't need lecturing on Moscow thanks very much having lived here just short of twenty years, and Grozny incidentally is quite safe by the way.

Also, your stats about native Russians are complete hogwash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia And certainly in places like Moscow, inhabitants from former Soviet republics are vastly under reported, not least because many of them aren't officially here, obviously.Sorry when I mean Russian I am including the CIS countries, i.e. not "foreign". and once again I don't need the Moscow lecture.

KenV
20th Nov 2018, 14:11
What's fascinating to me is that nationalism is quite different in the US than it is in Europe. We are a nation of immigrants and nationalism here has nothing to do with ethnicity or religion. The US has a very unique national identity based on a set of shared values, rather than shared DNA or shared faith tradition. Leftists are working mightily here to destroy that identity, and with frightening success, but I am optimistic they will be overcome.

JCviggen
20th Nov 2018, 14:27
I don't need lecturing on Moscow thanks very much.

I suppose that depends on whether you care about being factual or merely right in your own mind. I've never met a Moscovite who i would expect to attack me if I said anything negative about Russia. In fact most of them seem happy to complain about the way things are run here until the cows come home. In any case, Moscow is demonstrably more liberal than Russia as a whole.

And Grozny might be safe but that is one place where you don't want to stray too far from what is "officially" accepted. At least if you're local, foreign visitors get away with just about anything.

cee cee
20th Nov 2018, 14:55
bad mouth Russia in Moscow.... you are as they say cruisin' for a bruisin'.... they take such things quite seriously.

So if a person who dares speak out when they see their fellow citizens or officals doing something that they believe is morally wrong, they risk physical violence being done to them?

Why does that remind me of Khashoggi? Or Daphne Caruana Galizia?

And you are proud of that trait in your country? I think you have just shown how nationalism can be a bad thing.

I'm proud to be British, says the racist.

I need clarification on that.

There is an insignificant group of Britons of African or Aisian descent. For those people, I can only come up with three possibilities consistent with your statement.

Would they be racists if they say they are proud to be British?
Or do you consider them to be not true Britons?
Or do you think they are incapable of being proud to be British?

Which is the right answer?

KenV
20th Nov 2018, 15:56
“The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, whilst the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does”Sorry for my bluntness, but that is complete total nonsense.

bnt
20th Nov 2018, 16:04
Fairly indifferent. I don't live in my native country (UK) but haven't had any significant hassle about it. The Irish government does stuff for me, which I pay for in the form of taxes. I could be anywhere, really.

The idea of having some nationalistic attraction to the UK is a tough one. I left when I was fairly young and have only returned for a few days every few years. It's not the same country I left - it's less British now. If they put a war on and I was called up for some kind of national service, I would definitely be "4F" anyway.

West Coast
20th Nov 2018, 18:24
I'm proud to be Asian, says the Indian.
I'm proud to be Oriental, says the Chinese.
I'm proud to be African, says the Nigerian.
I'm proud to be Arabic, says the Moroccan.
I'm proud to be British, says the racist.

Perfect example of how political correctness has negatively affected society. The left is seeking out reasons to be offended and if you’re not a globalist, well to them the only other alternative is a racist.

Sprogget
20th Nov 2018, 19:10
Perfect example of a sweeping generalisation more like.

Torquetalk
20th Nov 2018, 20:05
Some people are so up their butts about PC and a loss of identity that they are only ever chasing an imagined lost world where identity was clearer, simpler, more uniform. What a load of codswallop.

TURIN
20th Nov 2018, 23:09
flash8 do you actually read the drivel you post or just put nonsense together as a hobby to pass the time. Absolutely everything in your posts is complete and utter crap!.

Except maybe this bit....

...don't believe all you read online, most of it is garbage to fit a narrative to pursue an agenda...

Yup.

flash8
22nd Nov 2018, 23:12
flash8 do you actually read the drivel you post or just put nonsense together as a hobby to pass the time. Absolutely everything in your posts is complete and utter crap!.Makes perfect sense to me.... ;)

Mac the Knife
23rd Nov 2018, 19:49
"For he might have been a Roosian,
A French, or Turk, or Proosian,
Or perhaps Itali-an!
ALL
Or perhaps Itali-an!
BOAT.
But in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
He remains an Englishman!
ALL (together now)
For in spite of all temptations
To belong to other nations,
He remains an Englishman!
He remains an Englishman!"

Mac

(sorry, couldn't resist it....;-)