RAF Real Estate

[Tedderboy]

On one of my fairly frequent visits to Cranwell recently I found I had the time to re-live my youth (or at least 24 weeks of it) by taking a walk around the College side of the Station and was pretty dismayed to see the state of some of the real estate. Gone was the 9-hole golf course (ok..pitch and putt) which was now completely overgrown, the Qaboos facade looked like any maintenance has long been forgotten (peeling paint, weeds in the guttering, rust spots on the ironwork) and the cricket square on the Orange, which I understand was only installed at some expense a few years ago, appears to have gone to seed. On speaking to some of the youngsters (i.e. cadets) it also became apparent that there was no heating in CHOM and certain classrooms in Whittle Hall were out of bounds when it rained due to leaks in the roof. Not a great first impression for those joining the Service and the many visitors to the RAF's spiritual home - I wonder if Sandhurst and Dartmouth are suffering a similar fate? On a more positive note Cardiac Hill is still there but not as steep as it was in my day!!

[aw ditor]

You ought to have tried 3 years of it. Though on the plus side the heating never failed in South Brick Lines (aka Junior Entries') one just put more coke' on the stove.

[212man]

On a more positive note Cardiac Hill is still there but not as steep as it was in my day!!

Yes - it used to be really really steep!

[Old Bricks]

What is/was Cardiac Hill? My memories of Cranwell were that it was flat - Running round the North Airfield for the Knocker Run did, however, feel like running up Everest - just more horizontal!

[Ken Scott]

This can most likely be attributed to the current policy of not 'wasting' money on maintenance but rather waiting to a building is truly broken then (maybe) paying to repair it. Or closing the station, which ever is cheaper (e.g.: Lyneham). Though this is more expensive in the long term it pushes the problem to the right where it becomes someone's else's concern. The buildings you saw clearly hadn't achieved a sufficiently decrepit state to be worth repairing yet.....

As for the golf course & cricket pitch, these would be considered no longer a core requirement for any maintenance. Cheaper to play any cricket matches 'away'.

There simply is no money for the basics given the size of the equipment budget 'black hole'. Once we've procured it it's also left to deteriorate, but at least the defence industry is kept ticking over. There are more votes in industry than defence.

[Pontius Navigator]

​​​Or closing the station, which ever is cheaper (e.g.: Lyneham).
Surely not, new build, refurb, upgrade are usually precursors to closure of transfer to the Army.

[BEagle]

Back in 1973, over the Christmas Grant, some bright spark decided to save money by turning off the heating. I had to come back a day early due to the vagaries of airline travel at that time of year and the only way I could keep warm was to go out in my car - the shops were all closed otherwise I'd have bought a fan heater. Food? Forget it, the local pub was the only option.

When the heating came back on, the cold soaked walls streamed with condensation, pipes burst and it cost a fortune to rectify all the damage in College Hall. Many times the perceived cost savings of turning off the heating.

Appalled to hear about the current state of the place from Tedderboy, the only way to fix it would be to announce a Royal Visit in the early New Year, perhaps.

I'm with you, Old Bricks - maybe 'Cardiac Hill' is the outside edge of Bristol Woods?

[Melchett01]

This can most likely be attributed to the current policy of not 'wasting' money on maintenance but rather waiting to a building is truly broken then (maybe) paying to repair it. Or closing the station, which ever is cheaper (e.g.: Lyneham). Though this is more expensive in the long term it pushes the problem to the right where it becomes someone's else's concern. The buildings you saw clearly hadn't achieved a sufficiently decrepit state to be worth repairing yet.....

As for the golf course & cricket pitch, these would be considered no longer a core requirement for any maintenance. Cheaper to play any cricket matches 'away'.

There simply is no money for the basics given the size of the equipment budget 'black hole'. Once we've procured it it's also left to deteriorate, but at least the defence industry is kept ticking over. There are more votes in industry than defence.

Correct - I don’t know if it has a formal term, but we refer to it as managed decline, and it makes no sense other than being a metaphor for the state of the Forces as a whole. We would rather save £1 on maintenance and then spend £10 on repairs that could have been avoided. And the relentless focus on cutting peripheries and non-essential items means we will effectively end up with a core military deemed operational and what isn’t cut outright will be left to wither over time.

[muppetofthenorth]

What is/was Cardiac Hill? My memories of Cranwell were that it was flat - Running round the North Airfield for the Knocker Run did, however, feel like running up Everest - just more horizontal!
At the back of the mixed use playing fields around the pavilion, and behind the 'confidence course' is a small thatch of woods. This slopes down into what I'm guessing was at some point a river bed. One particular path cuts down at quite a steep angle. Dips down around 3-5metres. Doesn't sound much, but after a few goes it hurts.


I went through Cranwell in 09/10. Doesn't sound like anything's changed. The square on the orange was there, but never used (and due to injury I was re-coursed so was there throughout the summer in '10). I do recall some people playing golf on occasion though.

[Pontius Navigator]

Just before I retired we had a new Regional Prime Contract. The aim was to maintain 1st rate buildings, to improve 2nd rate to 1st rate and stop 3rd rate deteriorating - or something similar. The contract was fixed price over 5 years. We thought Christmas had arrived early.

For the first year things that had previously been degrading were repaired, painted, replaced etc. At the end of year contract review a big part of the contract was chopped to save money. Needless to say the book cost of the saving was not passed on by the contractor who had bid for a 5-year fixed price.

I don't know what happened in years 3-5 or indeed for the next PPP round.

[OldnDaft]

I was at Cranwell 2008-2012 and I used to, as an additional duty, maintain the golf course with the help of a former serviceman. We purchased mowers etc but the reason it fell into disrepair is because the overall maintenance of the area was removed from the grounds contract and therefore it was impossible to keep at a reasonable standard. I used to get a landrover from MT and pull the grass cutter along behind on the fairways and the other chap would use the motorised smaller mowers to look after the greens and the areas around the bunkers. Although not the most challenging 9 holes, it was a great little facility which was regularly used. Very sad....

[Sky Sports]

And they wonder why they are struggling to recruit at the moment.

[downsizer]

And they wonder why they are struggling to recruit at the moment.

I'm not sure the state of the infrastructure, of which an applicant will know nothing about, is the problem.

Anyway, like a lot of people, I'd just like heating at work that is functional throughout the winter!

[The Nip]

I'm not sure the state of the infrastructure, of which an applicant will know nothing about, is the problem.

Anyway, like a lot of people, I'd just like heating at work that is functional throughout the winter!

Those turning up for their tests are seeing the atrocious state of accommodation and facilities. Heating has been appalling for several years. Not content with just replacing it, they have tried to fix it over the last 3 years. Earlier this year they had to hire in portable heating generators for certain buildings.

The comments those attending their tests, are extremely derogatory. What fun will be had when Halton turn up.

[muppetofthenorth]

Those turning up for their tests are seeing the atrocious state of accommodation and facilities. Heating has been appalling for several years. Not content with just replacing it, they have tried to fix it over the last 3 years. Earlier this year they had to hire in portable heating generators for certain buildings.

The comments those attending their tests, are extremely derogatory. What fun will be had when Halton turn up.

A former cadet of mine who's been through Cranwell quite recently said some of their course looked forward to being under canvas, rather than in the mess.
He was going Reg though, so maybe can't be trusted..!

[VintageEngineer]

Back in 1973, over the Christmas Grant, some bright spark decided to save money by turning off the heating.
One of the first things I bought was a fan heater. It came in very useful year after year when heating was switched off at the official season change dates regardless of how cold it was. With everyone else i knew having theirs on full blast, the electricity cost must have exceeded the central heating cost many times over.

[Haraka]

The thought of Old Bricks moving at anything faster than an aimless meandering stroll challenges the imagination , indeed these days he might well be terrified of Scrotum accidentally overturning the chariot whilst pushing him up a gentle slope.
Beags, I've spoken to Nurse and she assures me that she wraps an extra tartan rug over you on chilly evenings to stop you getting flashbacks to 1973...
Then there was the 98 cadet who was seen finishing a cross country run wearing a ladies' bra over his P.T. Kit

"I'm training for the Knocker trophy, Sir !"

[langleybaston]

[QUOTE=VintageEngineer;10304673]One of the first things I bought was a fan heater. It came in very useful year after year when heating was switched off at the official season change dates regardless of how cold it was. With everyone else i knew having theirs on full blast, the electricity cost must have exceeded the central heating cost many times over.[/QUOT

Detached to Station X any date between 1 Oct and 30 April:

Fan heater
Microwave
TV
Radio
Thick dressing gown
Teddy .............. perhaps not, Teddy too comfortable at home

[Melchett01]

[QUOTE=VintageEngineer;10304673]One of the first things I bought was a fan heater. It came in very useful year after year when heating was switched off at the official season change dates regardless of how cold it was. With everyone else i knew having theirs on full blast, the electricity cost must have exceeded the central heating cost many times over.[/QUOT

Detached to Station X any date between 1 Oct and 30 April:

Fan heater
Microwave
TV
Radio
Thick dressing gown
Teddy .............. perhaps not, Teddy too comfortable at home

Come come now, no need to be shy amongst friends. I bet you’re not the only one with a teddy still.

[Easy Street]

Everything to do with infrastructure is a shambles, but to be fair on our lords and masters, they do know about it and agree that it is a shambles. The trouble is there is practically nothing they can do about infra since responsibility for it was taken away from the three services and vested in DIO, which is in the luxurious position of owning none of the reputational risk that its inadequacy creates. "Army housing in poor condition", "RAF runway late and over budget" etc. Never "DIO". There was much talk a few years ago about the services 'taking back control' (to coin a phrase) of their infra, but it's seemingly come to naught as all the potential work-arounds to DIO's uselessness currently fall foul of policies owned by.... yes, DIO.

To be even more fair, it's not just Defence that suffers this BS. The council round our way has been trying for over 20 years to get a moderately-sized infra project done. Four years ago the council leader got so fed up with the continual delays for re-costings, tendering and other BS that he truncated the process against the commercial officers' advice and finally had the bloody thing built. The bill came in 33% overspent. This was duly seized upon by the local press, expecting the politician to be pilloried, but far from it - he's been showered with praise from all sides. The public view appears to be that the cost would have escalated by a similar amount over the last four years whether the thing was being built or not, so the money being set aside over the next couple of years to pay back the overspend would probably have been spent on the project anyway. Nice to see some bold action from a politician!

[30mRad]

And I'm not sure that this will actually improve things... https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod-sets-out-vision-to-diversify-supply-base--2 As soon as someone says vision and programme of major projects you know it's going to be a cluster.

The description of RAFC Cranwell is a sad tale, but Whittle Hall was in a poor state in 2014 last time I visited. But it is the same across the estate (apart from the new gin palaces, but how long have they actually been built to last for?!).

[Lima Juliet]

Having stayed at both in recent times, I would say that Halton is in better condition than Cranwell - guess which one we are planning to close? You know the one that trains 2,000 personnel a year versus the one that trains 800 (if you’re lucky)? Couldn’t make it up...

If I recall correctly we predominantly use Personnel Support personnel to do Infrastructure? Not surprising then, surely civil engineers would be a better choice?

[NutLoose]

One of the first things I bought was a fan heater. It came in very useful year after year when heating was switched off at the official season change dates regardless of how cold it was. With everyone else i knew having theirs on full blast, the electricity cost must have exceeded the central heating

Always thought that myself, they put some single people in empty quarters at Brize due to lack of single accommodation, ( the ones past the service station ) and naturally they turned the heating full on 24/7, visited my mate and he was controlling the room temp by opening the window, needless to say that experiment ended shortly after the station got the bills for the electricity and gas.

[VintageEngineer]

That was pretty standard on many of the stations that I was on, for both officers and airmen. I was in surplus MQs on several occasions and loved it as a change from mess accomodation: all the joys of living out without the costs and commute.

[Fortissimo]

If I recall correctly we predominantly use Personnel Support personnel to do Infrastructure? Not surprising then, surely civil engineers would be a better choice?

I was a pilot while I was serving and have never worked in DIO, or DE, or anything else infra-related, but I am reliably informed DIO uses lots of civil engineers, including those of the RE! The issue has always been lack of investment, or rather a budget that was not big enough to do everything that was required. From the HQ level, the infra budget was an easy target, so it was inevitably reduced - the station I was on was given 10% of the 'operationally essential' works budget one year. That meant prioritising in the certain knowledge that deferred work was only going to get more expensive. When faced with a choice between doing preventive maintenance on a flat roof or sorting out the erratic power supply to the runway lights, it isn't actually a choice at all.

The system has never been perfect (and often far from it) but it remains to be seen whether managing spending priorities from HQ AIR will have the impact that people seem to be looking for.

[MPN11]

That was pretty standard on many of the stations that I was on, for both officers and airmen. I was in surplus MQs on several occasions and loved it as a change from mess accomodation: all the joys of living out without the costs and commute.My wife was moved out of the WRAF wing of her Mess in 1980 due to overcrowding and infrastructure issues. Her intelligent stn cdr designated an empty MQ as a Mess Annexe for her use, which we would both occupy a few months later as our/her MQ. Thanks, Boss!

[Krystal n chips]

Always thought that myself, they put some single people in empty quarters at Brize due to lack of single accommodation, ( the ones past the service station ) and naturally they turned the heating full on 24/7, visited my mate and he was controlling the room temp by opening the window, needless to say that experiment ended shortly after the station got the bills for the electricity and gas.

Mate of mine, after leaving the RAF as a stacker, joined the Prison service and was posted to Pentonville......the accom provided was a block of flats which was originally Met Police married, then single, then Prison service married, then single accom .......the electricity and heating bills for the flats exceeded those of Pentonville by, ahem, "a considerable margin "

[ShyTorque]

In the late 1970s I was in MQs at RAF Odiham. The garden backed onto that of another MQ on a parallel road. It was empty for a while then allocated to three single officers (the infamous, now sadly late, Scotty Weir being one of them).

Shortly after they moved in I noticed a large grey horse with its head over my fence, eating my flowers and the near edge of my lawn. The singlies had borrowed it from the Boss's wife to "mow" their back lawn and it obviously decided the grass was greener.....

[BEagle]

ShyTorque are you sure it wasn't a unicorn eating roses? As recounted by James Thurber....

[NutLoose]

In the late 1970s I was in MQs at RAF Odiham. The garden backed onto that of another MQ on a parallel road. It was empty for a while then allocated to three single officers (the infamous, now sadly late, Scotty Weir being one of them).

Shortly after they moved in I noticed a large grey horse with its head over my fence, eating my flowers and the near edge of my lawn. The singlies had borrowed it from the Boss's wife to "mow" their back lawn and it obviously decided the grass was greener.....

In the airmans quarters there was a garage block and a cable appeared over the fence, investigation revealed a fridge freezer and fridge in one married couples garage being powered by an extension cable slung over the fence into a singly block and plugged in with a do not remove label by the socket.

Was that one of the horses that used to reside at the end of the lazy runway as you wandered round the peritrack to the OCU? I used to give them the odd apple on the way to work.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fortissimo, IIRC all works costed and the wush list forwarded to Infra where they were categorized A-D. A was sub-divided along the lines of H&S and operationally essential. The higher command would then divide the cake much as you describe.

Category D was 'never in a month of Sundays after a blue moon'

However if the pot was large enough you might 'lose' a Category A works (change of requirement) and move that door that the new Stn Cdr didn't like :). Then there was that annual end of year surplus; spend it or lose it. The footpath across the MQ sports pitch at Lyneham for the 5th Nov bonfire springs to mind.

[Whenurhappy]

A couple of weeks ago we visited some friends in SFA (quarters) near London. The gas hob had been condemned and a small roof leak- where the flashing had moved because the mortar on a chimney had failed - had not been replaced or fixed after 7 weeks. The small leak has got bigger and now the ceiling in a bedroom will need replacing. It transpired that the helpline call handler didn’t know what roof flashing was, so didn’t assign a priority to the job. With the gas job similar ignorance was displayed. The call handler said you can use the other three gas Hobbs if you wish. It never dawned on the eu staff rhat you can’t use acondemned gas appliance. I’m so pleased that we broke away from quarters years ago.

[Pontius Navigator]

WUH, same with an electric hob at Halton a few years ago.

But with contract maintained housing you have some strange anomalies. At Shriv one patch had roof tiles and ridge tiles falling off H&S didn't seem to apply. At an adjacent patch maintained by Servo they painted the dummy grey plastic chimney pots clay red.

[MPN11]

As I haven’t set foot on Defence estate aince 1995, I can only say that it all sounds a total tragedy.

Apart from the familiar mis-match of curtains, carpets, paintwork and loose covers I can’t really recall anything bad about the MQs we lived in since 1980. (Locking, Waddington, UXB/Swakeleys, Northolt and Bracknell.)

[langleybaston]

ORANGE.
ORANGE

OMQs at Rheindahlen c. 1976.

Carpets.
Loose covers for chairs easy.
Curtains.

And when one went on a safari supper round the patch

ORANGE.

We have hated orange ever since.

[NutLoose]

They moved a course of Kuwait or Omani Airforce trainees into a block during the hols at Halton and when they checked up on them after the hols they'd had some contractors in and had fitted out a full white goods suite and TV's range etc, including hard wiring and plumbing the lot in.

[kaitakbowler]

Marching in to our quarter at the REU,as it was then, I enquired of the families officer the possibility of redecoration, "no funds Paul, got plenty of paint, you can do it yourself if you like". Which I didn't.

Fast forward a month or so and the FO's car appears in my workshop for routine maintenance.
I place 5ltrs of oil, and a set of filters on the passenger seat and instruct the MT controller to return it to the FO, with my compliments, he's welcome to to use a bay to do the work.
Phone call 10 minutes later, "Touche, send J (SWMBO) round to look at some colour charts"
Quarter redecorated and a terrific ongoing relationship with the FO for the next 8 years
PM

[Cat Funt]

Hate to break it to you, Tedderboy, but CHOM was having heat and hot water problems when I was there a quarter of a century ago! I was told it was character-building.

You might want to pay a visit to the WO & Sgts Mess, where junior ranks, candidates and even Air Cadets have been dining because the kitchen for their messes are knackered. (And, for a long while, SNCOs were eating at YHOM while their kitchen was renovated.) The WO & Sgt’s Mess also has problems with heating in at least one wing or another for years.

[Exmil]

Funding for Infra was largely delegated back to the TLBs on 1 April this year, so the RAF is now in control of some its budget and the planning for Infra.

[ExAscoteer]

You might want to pay a visit to the WO & Sgts Mess, where junior ranks, candidates and even Air Cadets have been dining because the kitchen for their messes are knackered.

The WOs & Sgts Mess is what used to be Trenchard Hall Officers mess. The original NCOs Mess is now the Stn Education Centre.

[VintageEngineer]

Gosh, are there enough WOs & SNCOs to fill THOM?

I suspect that they must come from 674 sqn AAC.

[The Nip]

Obviously there is no shortage of FQs at Cranwell. 3 bedroom semi-detached house to rentNorth Drive, Cranwell £515 pcm.

Advert from Rightmove.

[ExAscoteer]

They sold those Quarters off years ago.

[The Nip]

I think you should check. Agreed they sold some of those properties off. Some were kept on the inventory as to possible use by the Halton move.
But as that has been moved by a few years. They are renting them out.

[FarWest]

Many moons ago I had the honour of commanding a Station. On 1 October, I was chatting with the local head of the PSA (that dates me - MoD Property Services Agency for you newbies). “First of October, sir”, he said “I’ll get the heating on”. “Why?” I asked, looking out of the office window at the unseasonably hot autumn we were having. “Because it is the first of October, sir. The heating is always turned on on the first of October”. He really couldn’t understand why that was wrong. Eventually, I got over this by giving him the authority to decide on the heating. After that, the heating was on if it was cold, and off when it was warm. Just like most people do at home.

You would have thought I’d given him a medal. He was so happy that he could make a decision rather than having to follow a calendar.

[BEagle]

Only the military measures temperature with a calendar!

We had an unseasonably cold September once at a certain station. The squadron boss went to OC Admin and threatened to burn all his files to keep warm until the heating was turned on; however, the situation was solved after the Stn Cdr returned from Bentley Priory a couple of days later - where they had been basking in the warmth of the heating being on. "If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us - get the heating on immediately", he told OC Admin.

:ok:

[Asturias56]

Using the Military to run real estate makes as much sense as having realtors run a fast jet squadron when you think of it............................

[teeteringhead]

Only the military measures temperature with a calendar! Our school used to do that too. But I guess in them days all the staff were ex-military.......

[jayteeto]

Played golf in No5s after the summer ball. Too drunk to follow the course, just aimed at random flags. One particular short hole was about 15 yards par 3

[jete]

The Met Office has, "probably", suggested that the Air Force holds back on heating repairs until Global Warming is better understood.