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SpringHeeledJack
6th Nov 2018, 19:20
President Macron lauding the formation of an European Union Army etc today. A tad insensitive considering Armistice Day approaching fast. What do the JBer's think, bad idea, or inevitable ?

https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-for-real-european-army-to-defend-against-russia-and-us-11546376

Sallyann1234
6th Nov 2018, 19:49
Can't see any relevance to Amistice Day. We don't have wars between European nations any more.

But with Trump and Putin squaring up to each other perhaps it's time for Europe to look to its own defence.

lomapaseo
6th Nov 2018, 20:01
What do the JBer's think, bad idea, or inevitable ?

Depends, what Archduke is on tour today?

SpringHeeledJack
6th Nov 2018, 20:11
Ferdinand.

ShyTorque
6th Nov 2018, 21:37
This seems to be a political exercise to make younger voters folk believe that the main reason for forming the EU was to keep everyone safe during the Cold War years.
Conveniently ignoring the fact that was the role of NATO.

KelvinD
6th Nov 2018, 22:50
We don't have wars between European nations any more.
Really? I would say we have never stopped.

HyFlyer
6th Nov 2018, 23:43
So, what's history going to make of the situation...
when we have a German head of the EU bureaucracy and a German General as head of the EU Army.......

remind me......who won the war (s) ---three times in a row.?

You sure.........?

As they say, he who laughs last...laughs longest.

Clop_Clop
7th Nov 2018, 02:27
Like the idea as well... Europe should be able to defend the borders with each others help especially now when the US seems to be more about cozying up in fortress America and not so much trying to spread the liberal democracy agenda worldwide... us acting as a last resort backup like in WW2 when things looked really sour there for a while, before trying to influence the outcome...

B Fraser
7th Nov 2018, 06:53
This could be a good idea, let's see....

Italy - Uniforms
France - Catering
Germany - Administration
Holland - Working Hours
Sweden - Equipment
Great Britain - Training, Fighting Etc.

The reality.....

Great Britain - Catering
Italy - Fighting
Spain - Administration
Greece - Equipment
France - Organisation
Germany - Diplomacy
Sweden - Furniture

Andy_S
7th Nov 2018, 07:56
President Macron lauding the formation of an European Union Army etc today.

This, of course, was something that we were assured (including by some here on PPRuNe) was absolutely not on the cards.......

Krystal n chips
7th Nov 2018, 08:19
Can't see any relevance to Amistice Day. We don't have wars between European nations any more.

But with Trump and Putin squaring up to each other perhaps it's time for Europe to look to its own defence.

True, at least with regard to wholesale slaughter and destruction ......thankfully,however, there are still those who continue to uphold this proud and noble patriotic duty whenever the need arises to represent the UK........but that's " the lads" and football for you.

ATNotts
7th Nov 2018, 08:30
This, of course, was something that we were assured (including by some here on PPRuNe) was absolutely not on the cards.......

And it still isn't. Macron was suggesting that an European army may be a good thing to combat the perceived threat from not only Russia, but also, the USA (presumably specifically the USA under Trump). Were Trump to suddenly and unilaterally decide to exit NATO, or, perhaps more likely try and manipulate US democracy for his own ends then Europe would be very much on it's own. In such scenarios a European army may not look such a daft idea. At present it is level headed President thinking aloud.

As for Armistice Day, while the UK is wallowing (as usual) in the past, Macron is hosting 60 odd world leaders in the run up to the day, and you can bet you're bottom dollar he isn't just laying never ending wreaths.

Sallyann1234
7th Nov 2018, 09:10
This seems to be a political exercise to make younger voters folk believe that the main reason for forming the EU was to keep everyone safe during the Cold War years.
Conveniently ignoring the fact that was the role of NATO.
Sorry, but that's just nonsense.

The role of NATO has been "to keep everyone safe" from the USSR and now Russia. It still is, and will continue to, unless Trump decides to cancel it one night by Twatter. If that happened, we would need an EU army PDQ.

If western Europe had continued its centuries-old wars there could have been no function for NATO. Fortunately we now have the EU nations competing peacefully, and with free movement of people and trade it has become impossible to consider e.g. Germany and France fighting again over their border.

Of course, if people here ever saw their dream of breaking up the EU come true, Germany may once again have extremists wanting to try for Round Three.

As someone whose family tree was extensively modified by both world wars that started in western Europe, I am extremely grateful that the EU will prevent it happening again.

The Nip
7th Nov 2018, 09:32
As for Armistice Day, while the UK is wallowing (as usual) in the past, .

So this is your view of the millions of people all the UK and the world that we are 'wallowing in the past'?

Will you stand out on Sunday and say this to all those who are remembering the sacrifices of millions from all over the world?

B Fraser
7th Nov 2018, 10:19
As for Armistice Day, while the UK is wallowing (as usual) in the past,

I take it you did not see the poppies that filled the moat at the Tower Of London that described the losses in WW1. I did. I'm not one who normally takes much notice of public displays but the sight of the individual poppies was chilling. I then walked around the corner of the tower and saw the hundreds of thousands on that side extending to the end of the moat. Each individual flower represented a death on the allied side. When you consider how many more poppies would be needed to represent the losses suffered by the German aligned forces then any right thinking individual would be lost for words.

I suggest that you spend an hour at the Imperial War Museum display concerning the holocaust. There is a scale model of one of the death camps. If that single aspect of WW2 does not make you appreciate what it is all about then you need to take a long hard look at yourself.

old,not bold
7th Nov 2018, 11:08
Have I missed something? If the USA leaves NATO then NATO seamlessly becomes a "European Army including the UK" as opposed to the suggested EU Army, which is a "European Army excluding the UK."

If the French want to change NATO's mission when the USA leaves it to preventing an attack on Europe by the USA as well as by Russia, there's no harm in doing that when we've all stopped laughing.

Hussar 54
7th Nov 2018, 12:04
Sorry, but that's just nonsense


Of course, if people here ever saw their dream of breaking up the EU come true, Germany may once again have extremists wanting to try for Round Three.



Would that be to the east or to the west ?

Heaven forbid if those same people were to suggest that an important purpose of the EU is to let Germany again rule Europe but without the bloodshed.

SpringHeeledJack
7th Nov 2018, 13:22
My original reference about Armistice Day was that the timing of Macron's speech was a bit insensitive towards those individuals and countries who gave their lives and commitment to save others. Had Macron waited until the 12th Nov or after, it would've been more diplomatic. I wonder who really thinks that Europe will be attacked by Russia or China ? Trade is king and both these empires make a lot of money from the EU, the USA, the same. Everything IS possible of course, but not probable. The only real threat to the EU seems to be from the very fast acting changes brought about by unfettered immigration in the last decade and perhaps future automisation of jobs creating social unrest.

KelvinD
7th Nov 2018, 13:38
As for Armistice Day, while the UK is wallowing (as usual) in the past, Macron is hosting 60 odd world leaders in the run up to the day, and you can bet you're bottom dollar he isn't just laying never ending wreaths.
He will be "wallowing" in Paris on Armistice Day. "Wallowing" that is with other world leaders, including one of those he is saying we should create a European Army to oppose; Vladimir Putin.
As for the run-up to that day, he is doing a "Non-wallowing" avoidance tour of places such as Verdun, the Somme etc. I am sure I saw mention somewhere that Theresa May will be at one of those.

Denti
7th Nov 2018, 13:42
Have I missed something? If the USA leaves NATO then NATO seamlessly becomes a "European Army including the UK" as opposed to the suggested EU Army, which is a "European Army excluding the UK."

If the French want to change NATO's mission when the USA leaves it to preventing an attack on Europe by the USA as well as by Russia, there's no harm in doing that when we've all stopped laughing.

Thing is, there are some EU countries that are not NATO members, and won't be NATO members. But they would be, presumably, members in a european army. And the main reason is the combined and coordinated defense of the european union member states, which is, especially to those at the outer borders, quite important. Being a neighbour to russia or turkey, two very much dictatorships, tends to sharpen the sensitivity to defense. NATO will never do anything against the USAs wishes, and as the current administration of the USA is closer aligned to north korea and russia than to NATO, its current missive and importance is quite questionable to begin with.

Sallyann1234
7th Nov 2018, 13:51
My original reference about Armistice Day was that the timing of Macron's speech was a bit insensitive towards those individuals and countries who gave their lives and commitment to save others.
On the contrary. His speech was about measures to maintain the peace in Europe for which all those people died. It was entirely appropriate to make that speech now.

Lonewolf_50
7th Nov 2018, 18:57
It still is, and will continue to, unless Trump decides to cancel it one night by Twatter. If that happened, we would need an EU army PDQ. If you read the Washington Treaty, you will find that any nation wishing to withdraw from NATO will give the others a full year's notice. What that would mean, if Mr Trump convinces the US Senate to pull out of the treaty (Senate is the Legislative body with that responsibility) is that NATO would lose the US as a member (and a lot of money) but NATO would still exist if the rest of the nations agreed to keep it going. (@oldnotbold, I hope this answers your question)
Or not.

Article 13 After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.

A curious outcome, perhaps, but as I read the treaty's article 13, it would not need to dissolve in that case. (Which I'll bet serious money is not gonna happen). Perhaps others would read the text otherwise.

BARKINGMAD
7th Nov 2018, 20:06
Well he (Macron) is honouring Marshal Petain, who did jolly good deeds during the second big Eurofight 1939-1945??

Judging from the speed and efficiency shown by the Eurocrats when ships were badly needed in the Med & Aegean to rescue the migrants, I doubt if Vladimir is quaking in his expensive loafers at the prospect of a Euro-Army any time soon?

By the way, when is the next French General Election?

cavortingcheetah
7th Nov 2018, 21:30
There will come a time when the EU will send its army across the borders of a member country, ostensibly to protect its own citizens living in that country.

dook
8th Nov 2018, 13:36
Remind me again how many reverse gears the French and Italian army tanks have.

Come to think of it, what's the thinnest book in history ?

Andy_S
8th Nov 2018, 15:03
Perhaps a bit unfair. I believe (prepared to be proven wrong) that France and the UK are the major military powers in the EU.

But we, of course, are leaving, so where will this European Army come from? Who will lead it / where will it be headquartered (that’s a rhetorical question BTW – I don’t think Macron is proposing this for entirely selfless reasons). And perhaps more to the point, what the hell would it actually do if things did turn ugly on the Eastern borders of the EU?

Krystal n chips
8th Nov 2018, 15:21
Remind me again how many reverse gears the French and Italian army tanks have.

Come to think of it, what's the thinnest book in history ?

To answer your question.... see my hero below....but, in all probability, the same number of gears as those of other nations.

There's also more than a few contenders for the "Thinnest Book in History "....the UK being far from absolved in this respect irrespective of the context .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFGFCt-oHC0

Sallyann1234
8th Nov 2018, 16:27
Perhaps a bit unfair. I believe (prepared to be proven wrong) that France and the UK are the major military powers in the EU.

But we, of course, are leaving, so where will this European Army come from? Who will lead it / where will it be headquartered (thatís a rhetorical question BTW Ė I donít think Macron is proposing this for entirely selfless reasons). And perhaps more to the point, what the hell would it actually do if things did turn ugly on the Eastern borders of the EU?
To answer a question with another question, in the traditional pprune fashion, why are Putin and his troll army so keen to break up the EU?

Brexit being an important part of that strategy.

Hussar 54
8th Nov 2018, 17:07
To answer a question with another question, in the traditional pprune fashion, why are Putin and his troll army so keen to break up the EU?

Brexit being an important part of that strategy.

I think Putin doesn't give a fig about Brexit other than as you say, the EU is more at risk of breaking up without the UK. I'll agree with you, though, a broken, dysfunctional EU would make it easier for Russia to do a ' Ukraine ' with the EU's Baltic states - who still have a significant ethnic Russian population.

In the event of a Russian invasion of the Baltic States, at the moment it'd be Russia v NATO. I have no idea who would come out on top, but given that Russia is never more than hour's drive away from the eastern EU borders, my money would probably be on Russia.

Russia v EU Army, or put another way, a NATO without US and Canada, my money would absolutely, positively, definitely be on Russia.

So maybe instead of spending all that cash on creating a no-hope EU army, if it's being created for the specific purpose of facing up to Russia, those EU states who currently don't contribute the ' agreed ' amount to NATO should do so, and maybe Trump wouldn't then be talking about pulling the US out of NATO.

dook
8th Nov 2018, 21:27
…..for the "Thinnest Book in History "....the UK being far from absolved in this respect irrespective of the context .

You are wrong and clearly have not studied history.

Do you know what I am talking about ?

Krystal n chips
9th Nov 2018, 05:37
You are wrong and clearly have not studied history.

Do you know what I am talking about ?

Well I don't claim to be a historian, but, yep, I do have a very good idea as to the context you are alluding to........

Pinky the pilot
9th Nov 2018, 10:27
At the risk of being shot down in flames for correctness/pedantry/whatever/IDGAS......

Is it who's army or whose army??:confused:

Given your erudition Krystal, I thought that you would have already mentioned this.:D:=

pax britanica
9th Nov 2018, 10:46
RE the French and Italian reverse gear comments

I mean exactly when did the French retreat all the time-certainly not in WW1 where Verdun outdid even the Somme for horrors and didnt both the French and British armies collapse in the face of BlitzKrieg and didnt we not them run away at Dunkirk leaving them to their fate. ( I know that isnt really the case but to be frank we were the ones retreating from the field ) and we have done our share of retreating over time as has any army.

These ludicrous 19th century beliefs are a cancer on our society in the UK and give rise to morons and idiots like the lady on the radio two days ago saying she couldnt care less if we had to buy Visas to travel to the EU because she always goes to Tenerife on holiday.

As for an Eu army -why not , I think because we do have a very experienced and professional army our views would have carried a lot of weight and claimed many leadership[ positions. Many countries would not feel that happy with a German lead EU army for obvious reasons. we can no longer rely on America and there is no real incentive for Russia to invade anybody least of all the UK seeing as they own a large share of it these days.

eal401
9th Nov 2018, 11:25
President Macron lauding the formation of an European Union Army etc today. A tad insensitive considering Armistice Day approaching fast. What do the JBer's think, bad idea, or inevitable ?

https://news.sky.com/story/emmanuel-macron-calls-for-real-european-army-to-defend-against-russia-and-us-11546376

Fake news. Remain voters clearly told us this would never, ever be an option, so the report is completely false.