HKAOS Membership update 3 Nov 18

[Liam Gallagher]

Reading that update reminded me of the old tale of the guy who went into the used car lot and his opening line to the spiv salesman was, "My wife absolutely loves the car, I must buy it, what's your best price?"ŵ

NC (whether that's the Negotiating Commitee or Numero Crunch, I dunno), for the sake of everything's that holy perhaps your dignity or even your own rectal integrity;- PLEASE STOP... STANDOWN... REST.... WALK AWAY.... PLEASE.

We all know Management is as trustworthy as gas station sushi, so you can hardly be surprised they are now reversing out of agreed positions. But in many ways the HKAOA has invited this. You are chasing this deal way too hard and you have been negotiating with yourselves for some months, Your desperation oozes out of every HKAOA update. I am sure you mean well, but you are no longer respresenting the members, This is not democracy. The parts you have agreed are so far from what the membership wants, not only are these negotiations doomed, but you have undermined any future negotiations. You have become the playthings of management. PLEASE STOP.

1. During HPE the Company smiled at the table, whilst introducing "double SO". Your response was to unzip your trousers and offer concessions.
2. During the recent talks, you have agreed to buy back ARAPA and RP07 and offered a zero % pay rise in return for HKPA similar to COS18 new joiners. That is meagre. However, management sense they could take you for more and introduced COS18, which demands new joiners are no longer represented by the HKAOA (ie you). Your response to this massive biatch-slap was to drop your unzipped trousers and bend over the table.
3. Impasse was declared, however rather than grab your trousers and run, you proposed drafting the sh!t sandwich into a "contract"!!. Are you mad? Are you surprised they have now come at you with " the mother of Clause 7", when you swallowed the motherload called COS18?

HPE was embarrassing, this is now bordering on self-harm. If this was a boxing match, the referee would have stopped it many rounds ago. If this were a dog, someone would have called the RSPCA months ago. This is why we teach our daughters not to date pilots.

PLEASE PLEASE SOMEONE STOP THIS MADNESS. THIS IS OUR CAREERS CIRCLING THE PLUGHOLE

[DessertRat]

Rod FFS please stand again

[Farman Biplane]

And all this locked up behind closed doors because of the GFBFA that the HKAOA insisted upon!

If there is agreement on ARAPA and RP’s then why not present the agreements and put them to a vote individually?

Madness, spelt with a capital HKAOAGFBFAHPE......

[Frogman1484]

Walk Away...Its turning out to be a fiasco!!!!!

[illtellyouhowitis]

I hope you muppets that voted for DS bow your heads in shame.

RF was the only leader we had that fought back and pissed the management off.

[main_dog]

Appeasement does not work with this bunch.

[Some How I'm Tired]

It seems to me that since this GFBA has been introduced, the Company has used it as a tool to totally overrun the HKAOA NC. It appears that this is the root of all problems when it comes to taking our gloves off. It ties up our NC for YEARS whilst we have to exhaust all possible options.

Isn’t it about time we as the AOA were proactive and unleashed ourselves from a one sided agreement? Why don’t we do what the Company regularly does and unilaterally cancel this pathetic agreement?

Untie our hands. Let us take the gloves off. Walk away from all ‘negotiations’. Enough is enough.

[illtellyouhowitis]

I find my colleagues quite pathetic, sorry to be direct but as a collective body, we are a disgrace. RF kicked them in the guts, then most of you all voted for DS, his wishy washy actions have been a complete waste of time. No 13th month, we write a letter on yammer, they must have pissed themselves laughing.

They wanted to change hotel in KIX and reduce the allowances, the girls got angry and they changed it back to the original hotel in a heartbeat. Can you imagine what would have happened if they said no 13th month for just the ISMs???? I'll let you all answer that.


I'm fed up with all the bitching, enough FFS.

[shortly2]

Actually this could relate to the AOA or Cathay Pacific. You start to cheer up because surely things couldn't possibly be worse, then sure enough things get worse.

[Samsonite]

ITYHII,, Really you are a RF supporter? RF is the reason the HKAOA is in the position it is because he sunk the deal in 2016!!!! Now HKAOA is trying to claw everything back that was good in that TA but unfortunately company is playing the financial times card and dont want to give anything back.

[illtellyouhowitis]

Samsonite, Are you telling me then you're a DS supporter?....If so, how's he doing???

[illtellyouhowitis]

ITYHII,, Really you are a RF supporter? RF is the reason the HKAOA is in the position it is because he sunk the deal in 2016!!!! Now HKAOA is trying to claw everything back that was good in that TA but unfortunately company is playing the financial times card and dont want to give anything back.

All that was good in the last TA, what are you smoking. If that TA had gone though, you think the company wouldn't have come after just about everything we have and we wouldn't have been able to fight back because your great TA said we couldn't fight back because of the wonderful clause written in it. So you wanted a little scap and thought that was good..You come across as someone who is happy with negotiating back something they took from us.

[unitedabx]

Aer Lingus captains turning down Euro5000 per G day callout and an extra 10 days leave. And the HKAOA are still talking to the company about cuts. Ridiculous. RESIGN.

[Samsonite]

ITYHII, Oh so you admit TA 2016 was good because and now you state the company would have come after everything we got so we should have took it, right? Once it was inlace even RP's were back in our contract and not company policy unlike the position we sit in now..

The famous clause 7 that basically every western world has in their Labour Laws that creates labour peace between 2 parties for a certain period of time!!! Oh ya that one!!

How is your contract now Betpump and do you seriously think you are gonna get a better deal now when the company has just gone through the 2 worst financial years in their history?? You better open up your eyes, use your brain and quit following the Magenta line.

[arse]

Dear Samonsite. I know you are scared. It's OK. It's a natural reaction. Take a deep breath. What caused the two worst financial years in Cathay's history. Yes, you right ... the fuel hedging debacle. Would that be a great opportunity to cry poor and start cost cutting? Would those cuts have far-reaching effects, beyond the fuel hedging? Of course. Patience dear chap. Patience. May I politely suggest, that before you tell people to open their eyes, that you return your company issued blinkers!

[Farman Biplane]

Samson, HK has nothing like the workplace protections and laws in those 1st world countries where an industrial peace clause might be an acceptable part of a negotiated deal.

[Oasis]

The company is under pressure to get us to sign into concessions while we are in the red, once we do we will be stuck with it while the company is happily making huge profits again.

Delay delay delay, It’s only going to get better...

[kenfoggo]

The HKAO is wallowing in a desperate period of inaction. They cannot even police and enforce their own Training Ban so do not expect anything other than what has happened over the last two years, which is Nothing.

[illtellyouhowitis]

Samsonite,

After reading your replies, you have made it perfectly clear that you can't fix stupid.

[morningcoffee]

All that was good in the last TA, what are you smoking. If that TA had gone though, you think the company wouldn't have come after just about everything we have and we wouldn't have been able to fight back because your great TA said we couldn't fight back because of the wonderful clause written in it. So you wanted a little scap and thought that was good..You come across as someone who is happy with negotiating back something they took from us.
No offence here, but you’re an idiot. Any employment lawyer in HKG, not a bunch of pilots sitting around the plaza in DB stroking their di*ks, but a proper experienced employment contract lawyer or barrister will tell you in a roundabout way that large corporations in HKG have all the power. If CX want to come after the AOA for industrial disruption they will. The clause that got you all excited like schoolboys seeing t*ts for the first time was largely irrelevant.
But you felt good that you thought you’d stuck it to the company I suppose.
Plenty of current employment contract disputes and industrial action ongoing in HKG, have a look at the courts current interpretations.
BTW 7 years ago this week
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/qantas-tactics-turning-back-the-industrial-clock-20111101-1v197.html

First world labour laws apparently, QF pilots with a pretty valid legal case subsequently destroyed in court.

[mngmt mole]

MorningCoffee, another fairly tepid management "hail mary" from you. Trying to suggest that leaving for Qantas isn't a great idea....yea, ok. At least those of us who are planning on leaving for QA can rest happy knowing we are living back home, and enjoying working for a company that is subject to a semblance of legal sobriety. Oh, and one more thing...you should know by now that nearly every Aussie under the age of 45 (and not a few over I might add) are already in the QA system, interviewing, confirming course dates and counting the days until we've left this most toxic of airlines behind us. But you keep at it my boy, take another one for the management team like the little cubicle dweller that you are.

(.. interviews sometime last month had 12 CX pilots there on the same day....but who's counting)

[illtellyouhowitis]

No offence here, but you’re an idiot. Any employment lawyer in HKG, not a bunch of pilots sitting around the plaza in DB stroking their di*ks, but a proper experienced employment contract lawyer or barrister will tell you in a roundabout way that large corporations in HKG have all the power. If CX want to come after the AOA for industrial disruption they will. The clause that got you all excited like schoolboys seeing t*ts for the first time was largely irrelevant.
But you felt good that you thought you’d stuck it to the company I suppose.
Plenty of current employment contract disputes and industrial action ongoing in HKG, have a look at the courts current interpretations.
BTW 7 years ago this week
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/qantas-tactics-turning-back-the-industrial-clock-20111101-1v197.html

First world labour laws apparently, QF pilots with a pretty valid legal case subsequently destroyed in court.



MC, I must say with the greatest respect but you do come across as a guy who is scared of the dark, probably henpecked by your wife and incapable of seeing the wood for the trees.

May I sugest you harden the Fu3k up. You Sir, are pathetic.

[Babbalito]

MC actually makes some very interesting points. The individuals truly in control of the airline group WILL have layers of planning in place for multiple contingencies. They will have both offensive and defensive game plans (we've largely seen the former so far due to the employees' lack of offense) and they will have hired some expensive, ruthless and talented help to make sure that they prevail and protect their cash. The problem with the Unions is that they're populated my emasculated amateurs (no offence!) most of whom are too exposed and/or scared and/or intimidated to do the necessary (part of the Swire plan of course) and who can blame them? Being reasonable humans, these amateurs are too easily seduced by 'good faith' etc. The unions play by gentlemanly rules but the company does not.

So...

The unions need to work together, pool resources and instruct professional negotiating and legal teams to battle on their behalf. Once the committees are one step removed then the level of threat against them is reduced. The company will resist this of course; it would much prefer to bully an employee directly.

The article is a lesson in history. Those that fail to remember the lessons are bound to repeat their mistakes. The company won't be that foolish so why should we?

[Apple Tree Yard]

Just finished having dinner with a good friend, a senior Captain. He would like to join training, but will not while the ban is in effect. These lowlifes that have taken the job now have usurped better people, who (at least in the case of my friend) are more senior and would get the position if applied for. I hope they choke on their extra pay, hope it is worth the career staining shame it will coat them with. Disgusting.

[unitedabx]

MC actually makes some very interesting points. The individuals truly in control of the airline group WILL have layers of planning in place for multiple contingencies. They will have both offensive and defensive game plans (we've largely seen the former so far due to the employees' lack of offense) and they will have hired some expensive, ruthless and talented help to make sure that they prevail and protect their cash. The problem with the Unions is that they're populated my emasculated amateurs (no offence!) most of whom are too exposed and/or scared and/or intimidated to do the necessary (part of the Swire plan of course) and who can blame them? Being reasonable humans, these amateurs are too easily seduced by 'good faith' etc. The unions play by gentlemanly rules but the company does not.

So...

The unions need to work together, pool resources and instruct professional negotiating and legal teams to battle on their behalf. Once the committees are one step removed then the level of threat against them is reduced. The company will resist this of course; it would much prefer to bully an employee directly.

The article is a lesson in history. Those that fail to remember the lessons are bound to repeat their mistakes. The company won't be that foolish so why should we?

What we need is a team of professional negotiators. You provide them with a brief then stand back and let them loose. Give them 7 days and they report back with an offer to accept or a strike vote to take. Simples.

[OK4Wire]

Not so, simples.

The company doesn't have to negotiate with anyone, let alone a third party. Been there, done that.

[rhoshamboe]

I hate to say it, but MC is correct. That clause that had everyone so worked up was a placebo for the company. That, and all the "negatives" of the previous deal had zero real impact on what we could or could not do.

[unitedabx]

Not so, simples.

The company doesn't have to negotiate with anyone, let alone a third party. Been there, done that.

Been there done that NEVER has been tried. Years ago the AOA did try to have it's general secretary sit in on negotiations and the company walked out because they had not been informed in advance, which was correct procedure. Labour laws ( such as they are in HKG ) now encourage third party ( professional ) negotiators to represent workers groups. Ironically this law was introduced by Beijing. CX cannot refuse to negotiate with elected representatives or their nominees. There are numerous UK and USA based negotiating firms, manilylinked to huge unions like Unite and The Teamsters. For a fee they gather the information, listen to the clients aspirations, formulate a strategy, negotiate a deal and hand the offer back to the members to accept or not. Job done in 7 days. Do you really think the likes of the JellyFish and Boss Hogg think their own strategies out ? Why all the adjournments during the negotiations ? It's so they can consult with their team of suits sitting in back rooms.
FFS wake up and treat your careers seriously.
And by the way the FAU does exactly this, employs professional strategists, not wet behind the ear, amateurs like the HKAOA GC.

[Flex88]

Just finished having dinner with a good friend, a senior Captain. He would like to join training, but will not while the ban is in effect. These lowlifes that have taken the job now have usurped better people, who (at least in the case of my friend) are more senior and would get the position if applied for. I hope they choke on their extra pay, hope it is worth the career staining shame it will coat them with. Disgusting.

Sorry ATY however here is the truth.... CX walked away from "better people" many years back. The days of a Meritocracy at CX are dead and you only have to look at the past 15 years of loosing lawsuits, lawsuit payouts, Fuel hedging, etc etc etc with the latest being what you have read in the SCMP every day for a week now. Do they have the "best" in charge of our IT dept or another Swire Prince from some pompous UK university with a Masters Degree geology or pollywog genetics ???

And if you think Merlin the Magician will fix this; we now have an Inclusion and Diversity dept with most everybody receiving Unconscious Bias and diversity training.

#YouDecide

[Liam Gallagher]

I'm surprised the Chairman's latest letter to the Company hasn't drawn more comment. DS seeks to admonish the GMA for DEFOs onto the 777. DS makes all the good arguments, but finishes with "please don't do it again". No doubt this letter is followed up with a phone call asking for less lube on the next shafting.

Management clearly has no respect for the HKAOA. They are now doing as they please, safe in the knowledge that the response will be a limp letter. All the non-union representation guff in COS18 and "peace" clauses just formalise the sad demise of the HKAOA.

The new GC has only days to turn this around before it's all to late. Time to grow a pair lads, stop the rot, STOP NEGOTIATING. START BEHAVING LIKE A TRADE UNION.