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Spotl
4th Nov 2018, 01:18
As a Physically Disabled (Totally and Permanently Incapacitated – TPI) ex-Vietnam Veteran in my 70’s, I find Virgin’s offer to veterans to have priority boarding and an announcement onboard as an insult to the veteran community.

I normally board first in anycase as I’m disabled. Does this mean I’ll board in front of other disabled persons? It’s all a joke and publicity stunt to attract customers. Most veterans I know would prefer to keep their anonymity while boarding and as for an announcement on board that just adds to further embarrassment.

Maybe a discount (e.g. ID travel) would provide greater recognition for their service to Australia where veterans 'lay their lives on the line', instead of priority boarding and an announcement.

Maybe Qantas could look at my suggestion in acknowledging the operational service with some form of discount seeing the Minister for Veterans Affairs announced the initiative to have a ‘Veterans Card’ whereby companies could offer discounts to veterans?

wishiwasupthere
4th Nov 2018, 01:29
I’m a veteran (albeit a young one and with no DVA benefits) and whilst I greatly respect all that have gone before me, I really hope we don’t go down the American path of companies feeling obliged to thank everyone for their service. I’m proud of my time in uniform, but I volunteered for it. It doesn’t need to be rammed down everybodies throat, I don’t want or need any special privelages.

benjam
4th Nov 2018, 01:57
Sorry, Gents, I have to disagree.

I think the community as a whole should be more appreciative of their current and ex defence members.

I say this as an ex defence member myself.

With a wife in the allied health industry, it has angered me in times past when I have heard about the treatment of veterans by the Dept of Vet Affairs. You would swear that the shiny bum bureaucrats were personally funding the treatment that these ex members (who had suffered mental or physical damage on our behalf) were seeking. The veterans (or their spouses) had to really fight the clerks to have their course of treatment approved. This was not exceptional. It was usual.

If this is a step to recognise the contribution of these people to our nation, regularly and routinely - not just on ANZAC day, then I am for it. Yes it is a bit cheesy, but it is moving in the right direction.

Give the Vets it all: cheap fares, higher tax free threshold, reduced car rego, etc.

For the most part, I enjoyed my military time. While I got away from my time in the military unscathed, I went to 13 funerals of friends and colleagues - in peacetime! Not to mention the sacrifices of the families involved.

I know that friends who have not had exposure to the military life cannot believe some of the stories my wife has told them about her life as a military spouse. The public as whole has no idea.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice. Lest we forget.

markontop
4th Nov 2018, 02:06
So what is the accepted definition of a "veteran"?

Spotl
4th Nov 2018, 02:12
The Department of Veterans' Affairs official definition of a veteran is a member of the defence forces who has seen 'operational service'

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
4th Nov 2018, 03:09
Give the Vets it all: cheap fares, higher tax free threshold, reduced car rego, etc.
Vs
I volunteered for it
It's a fine line. Plenty of people do dangerous jobs.

parabellum
4th Nov 2018, 03:40
Anything to stop university students saying delete all reference to WW1 and 2, or the word 'remembrance' and 'the fallen' and stating, in public, that they would be 'moved to physically rip off a person's poppy'. I see the OP's point of view but by drawing attention to veterans we can hopefully push these worldly wise, know-it-all eighteen year olds right back in their boxes, where they belong.:*

TBM-Legend
4th Nov 2018, 05:11
In Australia it seems your damned if you and damned if you don't reading some comments. Virgin is trying.

I'm 100% TPI an I have nothing but good to say about my dealings with DVA....

Cloudee
4th Nov 2018, 05:54
Having seen how service people and ex service people are treated in the USA and having experienced how we are treated in Australia, I have to say there is an enormous gap that could be narrowed, by a lot!

dr dre
4th Nov 2018, 06:07
Before I start, let me state that I've had numerous family members fight and become injured in wars over time.

It's a stupid idea. It smacks of American style nationalistic rubbish that we Australians reject. We do the job, and get on with our lives. We reject these overt symbols of nationalism. We are egalitarian. Most ex military I know are humble and don't want to be singled out with priority boarding or announcements so politicians and business people can feel good about themselves while tangible problems in society are ignored.

I've heard numerous ADF and ex-ADF state specifically they find it stupid and they don't want any part of it. I've never met a single ex-military member who wanted to be "thanked for their service". They did the job they volunteered for, and got on with their lives.

If we're going to do it for military veterans, who as been stated is any ADF member who has seen operational service, why not do it for police officers, firefighters, paramedics etc who put their lives on the line to rescue people in need? Why not anyone who has been awarded an Australian bravery decoration? Why not doctors or nurses or teachers or social workers or any profession that is essential for the survival of our great nation? Fishermen, forestry workers and farmers all have a high risk of death on the job and perform vital services for the community. Why not civilian pilots? There have been plenty of civilian professional pilots who have lost their lives in Australia in recent times, do they deserve thanks for providing essential services like air ambulances, outback transportation and disaster relief?

It does smack of virtue signalling and favouritism.

For a more eloquent rebuttal to this proposal written by a former Australian Army officer:

As a veteran, I don't want your thanks. There are plenty who deserve it more (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-02/veterans-thanks-for-serving/10455152)


Anything to stop university students saying delete all reference to WW1 and 2, or the word 'remembrance' and 'the fallen' and stating, in public, that they would be 'moved to physically rip off a person's poppy'. I see the OP's point of view but by drawing attention to veterans we can hopefully push these worldly wise, know-it-all eighteen year olds right back in their boxes, where they belong.:*

And where do they exist outside of your own imagination, or a miniscule fringe element on some dark corner of the internet? Most veterans I know wouldn't want to be singled out to be used as political pawns.

ernestkgann
4th Nov 2018, 08:31
Does that mean, essentially, that you don’t respect veterans?

Eddie Dean
4th Nov 2018, 08:44
As an ex RAEME Aviation soldier, I tend to agree with the OP.
I have been thanked for service a couple of times in hospital when my service record came up.
My answer to them was that I never fired a shot in anger, was told doesn't matter the fact that had volunteered was enough reason.

FWIW.
Cheers

dr dre
4th Nov 2018, 09:09
Does that mean, essentially, that you don’t respect veterans?



So because I disagree with this proposal I don't "respect veterans"?

No, I think it's American style jingoistic nonsense and does nothing to help actual people with needs (which includes veterans) and disrespects all those other professionals in society who perform dangerous and essential jobs without as many thanks.

In fact if we quietly acknowledge all people in society who perform these jobs (which includes people in the military) without meaningless platitudes I believe it's much more respectful to veterans than being used as a corporate and governmental PR stunt.

A lot of former military personnel are opposed to this as well, if the comments on this thread and social media are anything to go by. Do they "disrespect veterans"?

The Bullwinkle
4th Nov 2018, 09:17
It’s all a joke and publicity stunt to attract customers.
Of course it’s just a publicity stunt.

Maybe a discount (e.g. ID travel) would provide greater recognition for their service to Australia where veterans 'lay their lives on the line', instead of priority boarding and an announcement.
Won’t happen! That would cost money!

coaldemon
4th Nov 2018, 09:20
My Grandfather fought on the western front in WW1. He didn't speak about it at all during his life and never wanted it recognised. I think we should recognise veterans but having had a lot to do with the US over the last 30 years the question is do we want to go down their path? It all comes to the culture you want to drive as the PM ( although Australian politicians and the culture they drive is another discussion)

dr dre
4th Nov 2018, 09:28
This sums up my thoughts on this matter entirely:


A spokesman for Qantas said the airline had the “utmost respect for current and former defence force personnel” and special announcements were made on Anzac Day and Remembrance Day.

“[But] we’re conscious that we carry a lot of exceptional people every day, including veterans, police, paramedics, nurses, firefighters and others, and so we find it difficult to single out a particular group as part of the boarding process [with the exception of passengers with special needs].”


Virgin Australia announces US-style plan to honour veterans on every flight (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/nov/04/virgin-australia-honours-veterans-on-flights?CMP=soc_567&fbclid=IwAR0H5_EMkhrJEO3ivn0yLjijTosJtxxQJzsJTXwRpM5QbF4VTI_ 5x29Broo)

junior.VH-LFA
4th Nov 2018, 09:37
Iím an ADF member.

I think itís hilarious that Virgin (and Scomo for that matter) think this is a priority when mental health support for veterans suffering from PTSD remains under funded, DVA argues the point to the literal cent with people with permanent injuries received in combat and at home through bad WH&S practices and more diggers are killing themselves every year than what we ever lost in Afghanistan.

While Iím sure Virgin means well, I donít know anyone either past or present ADF thatís asked for it, or would want this over the government actually looking after the people theyíve assisted in breaking.

No one wants discounts, we donít want your thanks (although Iím sure itís appreicated), what everyone wants is for those who are suffering to be looked after and helped, even if it costs the government some money.

Break Right
4th Nov 2018, 09:50
As a brother of an ex Defence Force member (Commando Medic), a father of a Paramedic and other family members as Doctors, Nurses and Police officers aka First Responders I truly believe that they all should be offered priority boarding after all disabled passengers. The real issue is that the typical Australian likes to lay low and not shine in their heroism that the majority willingly see them as. It’s a must in my opinion. I see this as a wonderful gesture and nothing to do with what our Governments should or are doing.

Cloudee
4th Nov 2018, 10:17
While I think defence force members deserve more recognition than they get in Australia, just thinking how the bogans on the LCCs would react to someone jumping the queue. Perhaps the vets don’t need that experience.

Square Bear
4th Nov 2018, 10:33
Observed it in the States, and I think it is a great gesture that draws attention to a group, not simply the individual taking the offer.

And is up to the Veteran if he/she wishes to take the offer of boarding first, the privilege being there if it is wanted. Goes to convey a deep appreciation for the sacrifices given historically by a certain group of our society.

As Break Right said....wonderful...

As to QF response...I was a First Responder for some time...never ever thought myself in the same league as a Veteran, and most First Responders I interacted with would have had the same feelings.

Good on Virgin!!!

dr dre
4th Nov 2018, 11:15
As to QF response...I was a First Responder for some time...never ever thought myself in the same league as a Veteran, and most First Responders I interacted with would have had the same feelings.



Why Not? Our emergency services (please don't use the Americanised term First Responders, we've already got enough American cultural infiltration) have high rates of death and injury in the job, they put their bodies in harm's way to save lives of our citizens, sacrifice a lot of time away from home and their families and miss birthdays, holidays etc to serve the community, have high rates of trauma and stress as a result of their actions and for lot of them they do it on a completely volunteer basis for no monetary reward. They absolutely deserve to be in the highest league of people honoured in our country. I'd argue for police officers they do that while copping a fair amount of undeserved abuse from the public as well. A total of 47 emergency service workers have been killed on the job in Australia since 2003, which is similar to the amount of military personnel killed in conflicts for the same time period.

Let's not get into a contest about which vital professions are more worthy or deserving of respect, either we single out every individual group for praise or we treat all citizens equally. I'd rather the latter.

morno
4th Nov 2018, 11:23
My father was an ex-serviceman, and heíd be embarrassed by this.

Donít go down the American path, for Godís sake!

machtuk
4th Nov 2018, 11:37
My father was an ex-serviceman, and heíd be embarrassed by this.

Donít go down the American path, for Godís sake!

couldn't agree more morno, most ex servicemen stand proud without the need to be part of a commercial excersise! They could be honoured in many different silent ways👍

witwiw
4th Nov 2018, 12:11
a father of a Paramedic and other family members as Doctors, Nurses and Police officers aka First Responders I truly believe that they all should be offered priority boarding after all disabled passengers.

Priority boarding, to me, means you get to sit longer in your seat whilst waiting for the doors to be closed - nothing more. Except, maybe, being able to find an empty locker to put your carry-on baggage in to.

PDR1
4th Nov 2018, 16:33
I think we should avoid failing to show gratitude for any particular person's contribution and sacrifice by giving ALL passengers priority boarding - that has to be the fairest solution, surely?

PDR

aussie1234
4th Nov 2018, 20:11
So if a veteran is embarrassed and doesnít wish to be recognised, stay seated and just walk on with everyone else. Virgin doesnít know that youíre a veteran unless you tell them or are wearing something to identify yourself. Even if you have a small pin or something else that you wear, you can remain seated if you wish.

RodH
4th Nov 2018, 20:56
So if a veteran is embarrassed and doesnít wish to be recognised, stay seated and just walk on with everyone else. Virgin doesnít know that youíre a veteran unless you tell them or are wearing something to identify yourself. Even if you have a small pin or something else that you wear, you can remain seated if you wish.

This sums it up perfectly.
You are not obliged to take up this offer , if you don't like it then just stay seated until the normal boarding call.
The choice is yours , it's NOT compulsory so make your own choice.

Kranz
4th Nov 2018, 22:12
The whole thing stinks of American patriotism. Next thing we know Tiger will be petitioning for all residential allotments to install flagpoles. I thank all past and present veterans, nay, ADF members - but in my experience, us Australians are a tad more humble. Let businesses put their money where their mouth is - if they truly value the service of the ADF then make financial contributions to necessary and underfunded veteran welfare services rather than embarrassingly singling out veterans for the pathetic benefit of boarding an aircraft 30 people earlier.

Horatio Leafblower
4th Nov 2018, 22:54
I would be interested in how many people in favour of this are actually past ADF members.
From my circle, about 90% of the ADF personnel I know (aged between 30 and 90) find it a bit embarrassing... yet people with no military background are all for it.

Reminds me of a local stoush over pool access rules for kids under 15.
The local Council has put up the age for mandatory parental/guardian supervision to "all ages below 15" citing sex predators and drowning hazards and risk management.
None of the Councillors has children or grandchildren affected by the decision.
None of the loudest supporting voices in the community have children affected by the decision.

Reminds me also of the stoush over Part 135/121 and its approval by RAAus, Virgin and Qantas.
They are in favour of these shitty rules that don't affect them at all.

Motorists all seem far more in favour of bike helmets than cyclists.

Australians seem pretty good at supporting shit that doesn't affect them.

angryrat
5th Nov 2018, 00:19
I have no living veterans in my family but I do have family that have served. That disclaimer aside, I think itís a great idea because it is bringing discussions on veterans issues outside the normal discussions around ANZAC Day and Rememberance Day(although itís around the corner).

As humble Australians, we donít like to be singled out for something that we individually see as part of our duty. We then deflect that attention and want our mates to be looked after who are less fortunate. That has been the general writings by veterans already in this thread.

I say use this power to your mates advantage. Use it to create awareness and help heap pressure on the politicians to get better help for PTSD suffers and those who are injured as part of their service. Anytime anyone says thanks to you, ask them if they really want to say thank you to take 5 minutes to write to their local member expressing that the government should be increasing their support for those who have served and are suffering as a direct result.

More community awareness is what you need and this Virgin initiative has brought that. Donít waste an opportunity.

ruprecht
5th Nov 2018, 01:45
So the ADMINO in the MEAO whose biggest risk was a paper cut gets to waltz on to the aircraft before a paramedic or a firefighter?

Biggest. Joke. Ever.

5_mile_sniper
5th Nov 2018, 01:56
Interesting all of the commentary is along the lines of "I've never served but...", "whataboutisms" of Dr Dre or even veterans themselves with "Americanisms" all seem to immediately deride or shut this simple gesture down. Sure it could be better with cheap airfares but that is unlikely...

What we should be asking "why do our veterans not feel proud enough of their service to even identify themselves?", or
"why do Australian veterans continue to feel the need to hide in anonymity?" Alot of it has to do with the continued public perpetuation of humble, stoic and silent ANZAC digger stereotype.

After 19 years in the Army the only time anyone has ever gone out of their way and thanked me for my service was in a foreign country (US). It is not something I seek out or need, but like when someone compliments you, it does change your day. It also says a lot about how we look at and treat veterans in Australia. Perhaps more 'silent honoring' is the true Australian way.

Maybe I will identify myself and board early, maybe I won't. The fact that I ask the question speaks to a larger cultural issue. In the future, maybe a younger serviceman or woman will accept this offer and never even ask this question to themselves.

A small gesture by Virgin, but nonetheless they have at least done something, which is better than nothing.

ernestkgann
5th Nov 2018, 02:27
Yep it’s not service men and women asking for anything but something being proffered by a company to those people who have served the country. It doesn’t take away from the legitimate recognition that members of other civil organisations should get. In Australia we don’t even let poppies get tall before we cut them down.

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 02:40
What we should be asking "why do our veterans not feel proud enough of their service to even identify themselves?.

The only country that promotes its military to that extent is the United States.

Australians donít engage in the same type of jingoism Americans do. It isnít an issue that needs fixing, it is our culture. We see being in the military as a job just like any other, some roles in the military carry a greater risk of harm than most civilian jobs but then again a lot of them donít, as ruprecht pointed out. It is a cultural difference because us Australians donít automatically heap platitudes on people for belonging to a particular group, we recognise what we do as individuals. Just because people in America did it to you doesnít mean that Australians should start doing the same.

Iím sure if I was rescued by military forces I would thank them, just as if I had a doctor perform lifesaving surgery on me I would thank them or if I had a child who was struggling at school and a teacher went out of their way to help my child I would thank them, but would I automatically thank every single soldier, doctor or teacher I met? No.

This proposal is getting almost exclusively negative feedback, even the Australian Defence Association isnít supporting it.

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 03:00
And that looks like it will be the end of that. Virgin have just issued this on social media:

We are very mindful of the response that our announcement about recognising people who have served in defence has had today. It was a gesture genuinely done to pay respects to those who have served our country. Over the coming months, we will consult with community groups and our own team members who have served in defence to determine the best way forward. If this process determines that public acknowledgement of their service through optional priority boarding or any announcement is not appropriate, then we will certainly be respectful of that.

Looks like they’re backtracking on the proposal.

junior.VH-LFA
5th Nov 2018, 03:05
So the ADMINO in the MEAO whose biggest risk was a paper cut gets to waltz on to the aircraft before a paramedic or a firefighter?

Biggest. Joke. Ever.

While I get where you're coming from, they're part of the team and spend as much time away as anyone else in the ADF. They didn't ask for this either.

machtuk
5th Nov 2018, 03:11
And that looks like it will be the end of that. Virgin have just issued this on social media:



Looks like theyíre backtracking on the proposal.

They are indeed considering the backlash. Personally I think it was just a cunning stunt (that's backfired) to get free media attention, after all the Red Rat are always in the papers & the vision news, they where smart enough to see how Virgins great idea went before they weighed in on the story to their advantage which they have done by not having a bar of it. America go about this recognition in a huge way nationwide, it's in their culture they are a very proud nation, we are simply different not right not wrong just different. Am sure our servicemen & women past & present know that Australians respect their service in our own special way:-)

megan
5th Nov 2018, 04:20
Am sure our servicemen & women past & present know that Australians respect their service in our own special wayThe Nashos suffering the abuse of the anti war movement as they filed in to report for duty would have far different opinions, as would those who were told don't go in public in uniform when you return home from Vietnam. And Bob Hawke with his ACTU hat on denying transport of goods to the war zone, yet taking pride of place on the saluting dais at the Sydney welcome home parade. Yes, Bob was a driving force behind organising the parade, but I see it as a little hypocritical given his ACTU action.

Mention of how dangerous other professions can be is a little precious, comparing that to a job which requires you to be a target for an enemy. No H & S rep ever seen on a battle front.

WingNut60
5th Nov 2018, 04:40
The whole thing stinks of American patriotism. Next thing we know Tiger will be petitioning for all residential allotments to install flagpoles. I thank all past and present veterans, nay, ADF members - but in my experience, us Australians are a tad more humble. Let businesses put their money where their mouth is - if they truly value the service of the ADF then make financial contributions to necessary and underfunded veteran welfare services rather than embarrassingly singling out veterans for the pathetic benefit of boarding an aircraft 30 people earlier.

Absolutely.
You want to recognise and honour our servicemen? Then get your butt out of bed next Anzac Day and attend your local dawn service.
That's the AUSTRALIAN way of recognising our veterans.

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 04:41
Mention of how dangerous other professions can be is a little precious, comparing that to a job which requires you to be a target for an enemy. No H & S rep ever seen on a battle front.

Most military personnel outside of the deployed combat units never saw dangers like a raging bushfire or a deranged gun wielding maniac or a violent ice addict either. Plenty of military personnel doing safe jobs in an office environment like a “precious civilian OH&S rep” I’m sure. What’s your point?

pilotchute
5th Nov 2018, 04:55
Just to make a point. In the USA only current serving military personnel in uniform get priority boarding. A Vet in civilian clothing has to wait like everyone else.

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 05:09
Just to make a point. In the USA only current serving military personnel in uniform get priority boarding. A Vet in civilian clothing has to wait like everyone else.

Even if the personnel have never been sent outside of the US, and just do a 9-5 job at the base or if they’re fresh out of training ? Then it’s even a bigger load of nonsense than I thought.

Pearly White
5th Nov 2018, 05:15
This smacks of tokenism. If the airline or the government wants to do something that truly recognises veterans, they could start by asking them what they need. This might mean the airline offers discounts, better seat allocation, or, in the government's case, properly funding services that care for the veteran's mental and physiological health post-discharge.

The reason they love this in the USA is they are fond of openly displaying their "virtues" and the simple fact that Defence spending powers the economic engine of the country. It's about all they have left that they still make there.

I can remember close relatives who witnessed - and even carried out - unspeakable acts on behalf of their country in WW2. None of them wanted to talk about it. The only comment I recall from a twice shot-down Stirling and Wellington pilot was "we went too far" (about Dresden). Reminding them or asking them to recount stories of their service reopened too many old wounds. We weren't encouraged to ask and in some cases were sharply reprimanded if we did.

junior.VH-LFA
5th Nov 2018, 05:16
Most military personnel outside of the deployed combat units never saw dangers like a raging bushfire or a deranged gun wielding maniac or a violent ice addict either. Plenty of military personnel doing safe jobs in an office environment like a ďprecious civilian OH&S repĒ Iím sure. Whatís your point?





Yeah cool, while they might not actively be behind the wire they still volunteer to spend copiously long periods of time in some pretty shit places to make the team work.

I get the point youíre trying to make but pull your head in.

Pearly White
5th Nov 2018, 05:23
This smacks of tokenism. If the airline or the government wants to do something that truly recognises veterans, they could start by asking them what they need. This might mean the airline offers discounts, better seat allocation, or, in the government's case, properly funding services that care for the veteran's mental and physiological health post-discharge.

The reason they love this in the USA is they are fond of openly displaying their "virtues" and the simple fact that Defence spending powers the economic engine of the country. It's about all they have left that they still make there.

I can remember close relatives who witnessed - and even carried out - unspeakable acts on behalf of their country in WW2. None of them wanted to talk about it. The only comment I recall from a twice shot-down Stirling and Wellington pilot was "we went too far" (about Dresden). Reminding them or asking them to recount stories of their service reopened too many old wounds. We weren't encouraged to ask and in some cases were sharply reprimanded if we did.

And another thing... They could own up to and fund the care of the poor servicemen and women, and their surviving families, for the horrendous and often terminal health damage caused by things like fuel exposure cleaning out F1-11 fuel tanks, instead of spending squillions on lawyers fighting their claims every step of the way. The government has behaved as badly as James Hardie Industries did about the asbestos. Shame on them all.

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 05:36
Yeah cool, while they might not actively be behind the wire they still volunteer to spend copiously long periods of time in some pretty shit places to make the team work.

I get the point you’re trying to make but pull your head in.




Lots of civilians do that too, spend long amounts of time in undesirable places to make a team work. Because I’ve known many who have seen their relationships fall apart as a result.

How about we just agree that both military and civilian occupations can both equally include dangerous tasks and/or spending time away from home?

jetlikespeeds
5th Nov 2018, 06:05
What next? A seperate boarding area for LGBTIís (May have missed some there). This is yet more mindless corporate drivel, dreamily conjured up over a weeklong brainstorming session.

Just get on the effing aeroplane!

megan
5th Nov 2018, 06:41
How about we just agree that both military and civilian occupations can both equally include dangerous tasks and/or spending time away from home?Absolutely not, there's not a long list of civilian occupations that require the worker to fill out a cheque made payable to the community for a sum of up to and including his/her life. All civilian jobs have the protection of OH & S, absolutely no protection in the military. A civvy can certainly spend time away from home in rotten places, but they do it by choice, a little different to a government deciding to send troops into a conflict, and the unrelenting grind the current folks are doing by way of the number of rotations.

Peacetime a job in the military is no different to many civvy jobs, truck driver, office worker etc etc but put them in a combat zone then all caveats are off, they're in the front line and not knowing if the community gets to cash that cheque. Cue me a civvy job that can impose the stress of a jet night carrier landing. For your info it can be greater than the actual combat part.

The damn RSL wouldn't allow Vietnam guys to join because they hadn't been to a real war. Community respect for the troops? Not even an organisation of ex vets was willing to respect troops coming home. What's your point indeed.

Berealgetreal
5th Nov 2018, 06:53
Just get on the effing aeroplane!

Thats the hardest I’ve laughed in a long time. I’d put money on jetlikespeeds being a Virgin 73 pilot.

WingNut60
5th Nov 2018, 07:16
Mid-day news - Virgin announce they're having a re-think in light of public backlash.

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 07:20
.... Cue me a civvy job that can impose the stress of a jet night carrier landing.

Bush pilot in PNG/Indonesia. I reckon they’d have a higher accident toll as well.

H-Dog
5th Nov 2018, 07:44
Bush pilot in PNG/Indonesia. I reckon they’d have a higher accident toll as well.


........No. This seems an odd point to argue dr dre, that the military is not a dangerous/stressful/selfless occupation. Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason.

normanton
5th Nov 2018, 07:56
It's been canned. Smart decision Virgin. Someone in marketing should be shot.

TimmyTee
5th Nov 2018, 09:18
Yeah cool, while they might not actively be behind the wire they still volunteer to spend copiously long periods of time in some pretty shit places to make the team work.

I get the point youíre trying to make but pull your head in.

I have a pilot mate sitting on Horn Island that ticks all those boxes!

dr dre
5th Nov 2018, 09:24
........No. This seems an odd point to argue dr dre, that the military is not a dangerous/stressful/selfless occupation. Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder for some reason.



Nowhere on this thread have I argued that. I’ve just tried to explain to some people who are obsessed with elevating everything about the military above everything civilian that civilians are comparable. It’s obvious some will never accept that.

I feel a lot like Larry David:

Curb Your Enthusiasm - Thank you for your service

I’ll bow out now, and say thank you for your service (to all, civil and military who’ve gone above and beyond for us all).

777Nine
5th Nov 2018, 09:25
So a public company that has an interest in making money (which it isn't) that is owned by foreign companies, pulls a stunt to recognise veterans. I'm sorry but as others have said, there is a lot more that can be done for them rather than these marketing stunts.

Nice gesture, but announcing it like they have has backfired spectacularly

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
5th Nov 2018, 10:56
but put them in a combat zone then all caveats are off, they're in the front line and not knowing if the community gets to cash that cheque
Yeah, but all that was in the brochure before they signed on the dotted line. None of that should be a surprise to them. Every single member is a volunteer.
All civilian jobs have the protection of OH & S, absolutely no protection in the military
Rubbish.
http://www.defence.gov.au/WHS/

virginexcess
5th Nov 2018, 10:58
Just because veterans don't seek recognition is no reason not to give it.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
5th Nov 2018, 11:18
But bad PR apparently is.

Professional Amateur
5th Nov 2018, 12:34
My grandmother once gave me a crap cardigan for Christmas. Instead of abusing her and telling her how awful it was I simply thanked her for the gesture and left it in the bottom draw. Pretty similar to the virgin announcement, not many people will take them up on the offer but it’s a damn good gesture…. And I’m not going to lampoon them for it.

The views expressed on here are anecdotal (all the ADF people I know…. Blah blah), one layer deep and miss the point of the GESTURE. Virgin has shown leadership and as some have pointed out brought veterans to the forefront.

Some have likened police and paramedics to those in the ADF; on the surface they appear to be similar however in the eyes of the law, which is where the distinction lies, they are very different. Ascribing deaths over a period of time as some sort of measure of similarity is naive at best.

I have farewelled a few guys from the ADF and every time I say that it’s not what they have done whilst serving that is the most important; rather it is the fact that they volunteered and stepped across the line on day one. The fact that they have signaled to the nation that they are willing to do anything the country asks of them, up to and including laying down their life, is the real point. All whilst making careful distinction that the job function they chose was irrelevant to that oath.

When you sign up to the ADF the deal is that you no longer have a say when it comes to being placed in harms way. An emergency services person does not, when signing up make this same agreement, and whilst the numbers may be similar, their death whilst tragic was not part of the deal.

You simply can’t compare the ADF by any standard to any other job – you are not an employee, you are a member. You are not working for the ADF, you are in the ADF or serving. You don’t quit, you petition the Governor General (or Career Managers). You can’t form contract with the ADF. You will be thrown in gaol if you don’t show up to work (ask the virgin pilot who was AWOL). It appears like a job from the outside but the reality is far from perception.

zanthrus
5th Nov 2018, 13:37
Professional Amateur, what a load of shit. So Police don't sign up to risk their lives for the community the same as ADF members do? By the way many ADF members are not risking their lives as they are not in combat roles. You are a tosser to think that the military is all high and mighty above all else. I respect their service, but no more than any other profession.

pilotchute
5th Nov 2018, 13:51
Zanthrus,
Just because a military person isn't in a combat job doesn't mean that they don't take risks.

Ships catch fire and helicopters crash even in peace time.

I'm not going to get into an argument about what job is more dangerous but remember that police, firefighters etc all get go to home at end of shift. Many defence personel spend weeks and months away from home. Even the lowly clerks and cooks.

jumby164
5th Nov 2018, 14:21
So the ADMINO in the MEAO whose biggest risk was a paper cut gets to waltz on to the aircraft before a paramedic or a firefighter?

Biggest. Joke. Ever.

Pretty sure my ADMINO was as much risk as we were, yet many more were at a much higher risk. Everyone involved there was an important part of the overall mission. This type of argument has been an absolute embarrassment on the DVA related FB pages, remember we were all part of the team.

jumby164
5th Nov 2018, 14:33
Professional Amateur, what a load of shit. So Police don't sign up to risk their lives for the community the same as ADF members do? By the way many ADF members are not risking their lives as they are not in combat roles. You are a tosser to think that the military is all high and mighty above all else. I respect their service, but no more than any other profession.

In my stint in AFG I wish that I could say that the risk to defence personnel (of all NATO forces - AUS included) was less than our brave police and emergency members, sadly it was not the case. I can't stomach the idea of arguing which profession has lost more, what I witnessed first hand is not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

AerialPerspective
5th Nov 2018, 15:02
Sorry, Gents, I have to disagree.

I think the community as a whole should be more appreciative of their current and ex defence members.

I say this as an ex defence member myself.

With a wife in the allied health industry, it has angered me in times past when I have heard about the treatment of veterans by the Dept of Vet Affairs. You would swear that the shiny bum bureaucrats were personally funding the treatment that these ex members (who had suffered mental or physical damage on our behalf) were seeking. The veterans (or their spouses) had to really fight the clerks to have their course of treatment approved. This was not exceptional. It was usual.

If this is a step to recognise the contribution of these people to our nation, regularly and routinely - not just on ANZAC day, then I am for it. Yes it is a bit cheesy, but it is moving in the right direction.

Give the Vets it all: cheap fares, higher tax free threshold, reduced car rego, etc.

For the most part, I enjoyed my military time. While I got away from my time in the military unscathed, I went to 13 funerals of friends and colleagues - in peacetime! Not to mention the sacrifices of the families involved.

I know that friends who have not had exposure to the military life cannot believe some of the stories my wife has told them about her life as a military spouse. The public as whole has no idea.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice. Lest we forget.

While I respect your opinion - I think what you have said is exactly the problem. This government has obfuscated and fought every claim for compensation from every returned soldier or ADF person that has lodged one, in many cases destroying lives before finally accepting that it was some defence procedure or equipment or chemical that caused the damage. They are happy to pay lip service to the ex soldier community and then they come out with this ridiculous cynical load of rubbish.

Are you aware of what Dutton's department is currently doing to the niece of Nancy-Bird Walton??? Some trumped up rubbish about her not being a citizen, despite having held passports all her life which stated Australian citizen. Her mother was from PNG (an Australian Colony/Territory at the time) and her father is Nancy-Bird's younger brother, decorated by both Australia and the USA for his service in the Pacific.

Nancy-Bird's niece who is being victimised and intimidated by this joke of a department (Border Farce) has explained how she was threatened by an ABF case-worker, being told "Do you know I can knock your door down, drag you out of your apartment and I would be happy to do it".

I mean, how does a department get to a place where it even has the thought process that leads it to a point where it goes looking for ADF serving personnel (of 29 years) to find a target for its almost fascist behaviour. The document that ABF claim is the basis of their assault on her they are unable to produce.

Against this background I find it completely disgusting and vomit inducing that this vile excuse for a government would have the gall to suggest cards and lapel pins. Virgin has just jumped without looking into the web of a desperate government move. The linked TND article below sums it up better than I could.

Yes, give them discounts, give them better benefits, give them REAL services but don't victimise and oppose them then cynically come out with this. I'm sorry but the VA move is just as cynical.

Yes Americans do this theatrical nonsense and their 'veterans' are littered around the streets of their major cities begging and homeless. My father was in the Army, I'd prefer he and other friends that were are dealt with in a decent and human manner rather than being offered what amounts to an empty gesture.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2018/11/05/patriotism-last-refuge-scoundrel/

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
5th Nov 2018, 15:03
It appears like a job from the outside but the reality is far from perception.
Except it is sold as a job now https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/
It used to be a career.
Maybe that why it's a bit of a shock when you don't
get (to) go to home at end of shift

AerialPerspective
5th Nov 2018, 15:07
Professional Amateur, what a load of shit. So Police don't sign up to risk their lives for the community the same as ADF members do? By the way many ADF members are not risking their lives as they are not in combat roles. You are a tosser to think that the military is all high and mighty above all else. I respect their service, but no more than any other profession.

Exactly - and those that have been accused of murdering locals in Afghanistan, are we going to let them board first too - just like showing respect to a corrupt police officer. I want to see our troops supported and looked after but I'd pay higher taxes for a proper support mechanism for former fighting men and women. I don't blame VA for this, I blame our cynical PM who's thought bubble this obviously was - just like cynically suggesting we move our Embassy to Jerusalem... not because of any policy reason, but because there just happened to be a strong Jewish block voting in Wentworth which if they lost might lose them government. The Jewish people of Wentworth saw through it.

AerialPerspective
5th Nov 2018, 15:15
Anything to stop university students saying delete all reference to WW1 and 2, or the word 'remembrance' and 'the fallen' and stating, in public, that they would be 'moved to physically rip off a person's poppy'. I see the OP's point of view but by drawing attention to veterans we can hopefully push these worldly wise, know-it-all eighteen year olds right back in their boxes, where they belong.:*

Seriously, I think that's a minority. My kids are approaching 18 and they have a lot of respect for those who have served. I think most young people feel the same and the idiots that talk about ripping off poppies are a fringe minority.

AerialPerspective
5th Nov 2018, 15:28
Iím an ADF member.

I think itís hilarious that Virgin (and Scomo for that matter) think this is a priority when mental health support for veterans suffering from PTSD remains under funded, DVA argues the point to the literal cent with people with permanent injuries received in combat and at home through bad WH&S practices and more diggers are killing themselves every year than what we ever lost in Afghanistan.

While Iím sure Virgin means well, I donít know anyone either past or present ADF thatís asked for it, or would want this over the government actually looking after the people theyíve assisted in breaking.

No one wants discounts, we donít want your thanks (although Iím sure itís appreicated), what everyone wants is for those who are suffering to be looked after and helped, even if it costs the government some money.

Hear, Hear. I haven't been in the services but my Dad was between wars, my Grandad was in WWI and his brother was killed in WWII. That means I have some concept of people broken by war and that my Mum never got to meet her Uncle. I would rather pay higher taxes to make sure people who answered the call are looked after properly. I'd rather buy a digger a coffee and chat about what they did (not intrusively) to show real interest and appreciation rather than some empty gesture that costs nothing. Excellent article in the New Daily sums it up.

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2018/11/05/patriotism-last-refuge-scoundrel/

itsnotthatbloodyhard
5th Nov 2018, 20:41
Exactly - and those that have been accused of murdering locals in Afghanistan, are we going to let them board first too - just like showing respect to a corrupt police officer.


If youíd said Ďguilty of murdering localsí Iíd happily agree with you (except that then theyíd hopefully be in prison and not boarding a 737). But Ďaccusedí? As far as I know, we still have something called Ďpresumption of innocenceí here, and just being accused of something doesnít automatically put you on the same moral level as a corrupt cop.

benjam
6th Nov 2018, 00:25
While I respect your opinion - I think what you have said is exactly the problem. This government has obfuscated and fought every claim for compensation from every returned soldier or ADF person that has lodged one, in many cases destroying lives before finally accepting that it was some defence procedure or equipment or chemical that caused the damage.

AP, I think you are agreeing with me but am not sure.

dr dre
6th Nov 2018, 03:21
Some have likened police and paramedics to those in the ADF; on the surface they appear to be similar however in the eyes of the law, which is where the distinction lies, they are very different. Ascribing deaths over a period of time as some sort of measure of similarity is naive at best.

When you sign up to the ADF the deal is that you no longer have a say when it comes to being placed in harms way. An emergency services person does not, when signing up make this same agreement, and whilst the numbers may be similar, their death whilst tragic was not part of the deal.
.


OK I have to respond to that.

Bollocks.

Nobody signs up to the ADF to die. You sign up to perform roles, some of which may incur a higher chance of death like some civilian roles may incur.

You think a firefighter rocks up to a burning house and says “yeah looks a bit hot, I might sit this one out” without ramifications? I don’t think their career will be going too far in that case.

I’ve tried not to defame any military personnel on this thread but I’ve got to say some of the put downs that have been directed at civilian occupations, especially emergency services members on this thread are sickening.

parabellum
6th Nov 2018, 04:11
Dr Dre you said you were leaving, please do and delete your mad ravings on this thread as you leave. The whole point you seem to have missed is that the Virgin option was voluntary to veterans, if they didn't want to be noticed they simply didn't make it known that they were veterans. And as for this little gem:

And where do they exist outside of your own imagination, or a miniscule fringe element on some dark corner of the internet? Most veterans I know wouldn't want to be singled out to be used as political pawns.

Maybe you should catch up with national and international news before you comment, the biggest offenders being students unions both here and in the UK.

megan
6th Nov 2018, 05:27
Traffic_Is_Er_Was, loved your defence link where it says,However, at all times we will manage risk to ensure that when risks are taken they are understood, accounted for, and integrated into our plans and the way we operate.Can remember leading a flight of Hueys on an insertion where the brief gave me the distinct feeling that we were going to be lucky to survive. We had absolute crap rain down upon us, small arms, B40, air burst mortar, you name it. Another, benign insertion I though as I lead the formation again, landed and all hell broke loose in an ambush by a heavy weapons company, 25% of the troops wounded, 50% dead, all aircraft unflyable and sling loaded home by Chinook. While one of my crewmen escaped with an AK47 round in the neck and back he survived, I merely received one round in the back between the shoulder blades, thank God for armour plate. Perhaps you can tell us what we did wrong in the OH & S sphere.You think a firefighter rocks up to a burning house and says “yeah looks a bit hot, I might sit this one out”A fire fighter did just that on TV news a few nights ago, they're brave, not stupid, they don't do suicidal stuff, occupants had died, going in would have extended the list.

ruprecht
6th Nov 2018, 06:05
Traffic_Is_Er_Was, loved your defence link where it says,Can remember leading a flight of Hueys on an insertion where the brief gave me the distinct feeling that we were going to be lucky to survive. We had absolute crap rain down upon us, small arms, B40, air burst mortar, you name it. Another, benign insertion I though as I lead the formation again, landed and all hell broke loose in an ambush by a heavy weapons company, 25% of the troops wounded, 50% dead, all aircraft unflyable and sling loaded home by Chinook. While one of my crewmen escaped with an AK47 round in the neck and back he survived, I merely received one round in the back between the shoulder blades, thank God for armour plate. Perhaps you can tell us what we did wrong in the OH & S sphere.A fire fighter did just that on TV news a few nights ago, they're brave, not stupid, they don't do suicidal stuff, occupants had died, going in would have extended the list.

...and you should be recognised and thanked for your service, not used as a part of some political flag-wrapping exercise by a desperate government.

Break Right
6th Nov 2018, 07:41
Priority boarding, to me, means you get to sit longer in your seat whilst waiting for the doors to be closed - nothing more. Except, maybe, being able to find an empty locker to put your carry-on baggage in to.
The empty locker alone is enough for me to get on early. :p

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
6th Nov 2018, 08:19
Megan, obviously in a war zone or combat situation, then OH&S goes out the window. I was responding to your assertion that OH&S does not apply to the military. For the 99.9% of the time you are not in combat, it does. It could be argued that the helmet on your head and the armour plate in your helicopter are OH&S in action.

RickNRoll
6th Nov 2018, 08:37
Just because veterans don't seek recognition is no reason not to give it.

It is. It's embarassing and awkward for everyone. Let them put their money where their mouth is and give veterans a discount. otherwise it's just publicity seeking virtue signalling.

5_mile_sniper
6th Nov 2018, 08:58
No one has any problems with "Virgin flight XXX would like to welcome velocity rewards members to board first via the priority lane..." but VETERANS!!! howls of protest.

Professional Amateur
6th Nov 2018, 16:39
Zanthrus thanks for the rant and personal attack.

Moving on, in your fury to be the first to respond you completely missed my point.

Police do indeed accept risk when they sign up, not sure how you felt my position contradicted that. My whole point is about the law and the powers that these laws ascribe to the government. My point was not to argue who job is the most risky (as it is irrelevant), in fact I was very careful to stay away from this issue.

You stated ‘risk their lives for the community the same as ADF members do’, this is where you are wrong. The risk may be the same by way of deaths/injury etc but the laws that govern each occupation are very different meaning it is not the same. This being the very point I was making, not that emergency services are lesser beings or that the military is high and mighty…..rather they are just different (and its not me defining this difference, its parliament).


Dr Dre, Same point as above. It’s a matter of law and the application of that law. You are correct, ‘no body signs up to the ADF to die’, they do however hand over the control of that choice to the Government. This is where the distinction lays.

Read my point again fellas: ‘When you sign up to the ADF the deal is that you no longer have a say when it comes to being placed in harms way. An emergency services person does not, when signing up make this same agreement, and whilst the numbers may be similar, their death whilst tragic was not part of the deal.’

To be clear and back on topic, I wouldn't take the offer up, but hey if someone else wants to then go for it.
Yep, the skeptic in me knows Virgin didn't do it out of the goodness of their heart. Its Corporate Social Responsibility 101; Do things which appear to be good for society....but only if it is good for our bottom line. People don't get pissy when Qantas buys Brazil nuts from Peruvian farmers and then puts a quasi add in the in-flight magazine explaining how they are doing it to support the farmers...... BS; its for Qantas' net benefit.

The backlash is actually a good thing, it shows that corporations can't take the piss when it comes to national symbols.

megan
7th Nov 2018, 01:55
obviously in a war zone or combat situation, then OH&S goes out the windowDid I not say that at post #37?No H & S rep ever seen on a battle frontWhen I said "absolutely no protection in the military" it was to mean when the military are doing what they exist for, combat. As for 99.9% time not in combat, I wish, and the current troops would be of the same opinion with the number of rotations they are required to perform.

Matt48
7th Nov 2018, 07:40
As a Physically Disabled (Totally and Permanently Incapacitated Ė TPI) ex-Vietnam Veteran in my 70ís, I find Virginís offer to veterans to have priority boarding and an announcement onboard as an insult to the veteran community.

I normally board first in anycase as Iím disabled. Does this mean Iíll board in front of other disabled persons? Itís all a joke and publicity stunt to attract customers. Most veterans I know would prefer to keep their anonymity while boarding and as for an announcement on board that just adds to further embarrassment.

Maybe a discount (e.g. ID travel) would provide greater recognition for their service to Australia where veterans 'lay their lives on the line', instead of priority boarding and an announcement.

Maybe Qantas could look at my suggestion in acknowledging the operational service with some form of discount seeing the Minister for Veterans Affairs announced the initiative to have a ĎVeterans Cardí whereby companies could offer discounts to veterans?

Why not let veterans get off the plane first, it would be worth more as no one is going anywhere until after the last person on is seated.

dr dre
7th Nov 2018, 07:52
Dr Dre, Same point as above. It’s a matter of law and the application of that law. You are correct, ‘no body signs up to the ADF to die’, they do however hand over the control of that choice to the Government. This is where the distinction lays.

Read my point again fellas: ‘When you sign up to the ADF the deal is that you no longer have a say when it comes to being placed in harms way. An emergency services person does not, when signing up make this same agreement, and whilst the numbers may be similar, their death whilst tragic was not part of the deal.’
.

Well I'll say I disagree with that point, but you seem to be saying it's that point alone which determines that the military should be honoured or recognised more in our society above emergency services.

I could as easily say that the people in the military are already well rewarded via pay and benefits, in all cases they are paid while training whereas almost all civilians aren't (case in point pilots) and receive allowances when they are deployed. Therefore they already receive a much larger reward than one group who puts their lives on the line for us, emergency services volunteers. Volunteers do what they do for zero monetary reward (or in some circumstances very small allowances but nothing substantial).

Isn't that enough to place them in the highest league of those who are recognised in our society?

Cloudee
7th Nov 2018, 09:58
Iíll bow out now, and say thank you for your service (to all, civil and military whoíve gone above and beyond for us all).
Perhaps you should have bowed out like you said you would at post 54. Was your application to join the military unsuccessful?

dr dre
7th Nov 2018, 10:59
Perhaps you should have bowed out like you said you would at post 54. Was your application to join the military unsuccessful?






I've never been inclined to join the military. I commented because I was told to delete my "mad raving" posts even though I was basically agreeing with what the Australian Defence Association said and what an ex Australian military officer wrote about it here (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/05/as-a-veteran-the-idea-of-boarding-a-plane-first-is-trite-and-embarrassing). And it seems now Virgin as well, because due to the public backlash they have all but dropped this proposal.

VH-UFO
7th Nov 2018, 17:47
I've never been inclined to join the military.

Good, don't.

AerialPerspective
7th Nov 2018, 17:52
No one has any problems with "Virgin flight XXX would like to welcome velocity rewards members to board first via the priority lane..." but VETERANS!!! howls of protest.

Perhaps that's because they DON'T say, that. They let Business Class and certain status Velocity members board early or in a separate line because they make a disproportionate contribution to the company's bottom line - they don't 'invite' velocity members to board separately just as Qantas don't invite frequent flyers, just Business, First, Platinum One, Platinum and Gold.

AerialPerspective
7th Nov 2018, 17:58
If youíd said Ďguilty of murdering localsí Iíd happily agree with you (except that then theyíd hopefully be in prison and not boarding a 737). But Ďaccusedí? As far as I know, we still have something called Ďpresumption of innocenceí here, and just being accused of something doesnít automatically put you on the same moral level as a corrupt cop.

Well obviously I meant accused when they are found guilty. I support equality under the law.

KZ Kiwi
7th Nov 2018, 19:48
Unless you were conscripted, joining the military has always been voluntary and the risks known (as with many other mentioned civilian careers). This is just a publicity stunt and it's made virgin look very amateur.

junior.VH-LFA
8th Nov 2018, 02:41
Well I'll say I disagree with that point, but you seem to be saying it's that point alone which determines that the military should be honoured or recognised more in our society above emergency services.

I could as easily say that the people in the military are already well rewarded via pay and benefits, in all cases they are paid while training whereas almost all civilians aren't (case in point pilots) and receive allowances when they are deployed. Therefore they already receive a much larger reward than one group who puts their lives on the line for us, emergency services volunteers. Volunteers do what they do for zero monetary reward (or in some circumstances very small allowances but nothing substantial).

Isn't that enough to place them in the highest league of those who are recognised in our society?

I've always found this very interesting. I think you'll find that those who are commanding KC-30's and similar sized jets, flying in some pretty "interesting parts" of the world, staying in usually worse accommodation and for months at a time are earning considerably less than their commercial counterparts. China Southern certainly has recognised that fact and capitalised on it quite effectively! I can't comment on a lot of other trades as I don't have that much involvement with them, but I think you'll find that the average digger isn't exactly flush with coin.

I've also always been intrigued by the rare disdain I've seen in some of my GA mates when it comes to being paid to learn how to fly. Granted we aren't paying for it, but I'm yet to see any school in Australia that you are on a daily renewable contract with (maybe cadetships, I'm honestly not sure). Pilot's course was pretty brutal, we started with 18 and finished with 11. Given the context of how the ADF employs those skills they've invested time and money into giving you, I think it's a fair trade.

virginexcess
8th Nov 2018, 04:39
This thread says so much more about pilots, yet again, than it does about the proposal
Why do we as a group always find ways to belittle the contributions of others, rather than accepting a gift graciously and then pushing for more.
It never ceases to amaze me the attitude of those who, when they see imbalance, want to take from the better off, rather than work to bring everyone else up to the same standard.
It's a pretty easy argument to justify benefits for veterans, and importantly incredibly hard to argue against (in person that is, not on an anonymous forum). Once one group gets some sort of advantage/benefit it then becomes significantly easier to argue for that benefit to be extended to other worthy recipients. It's not rocket science, but we'd rather the short term satisfaction of cutting down a tall poppy than work together for the benefit of everyone in the long run.

CEO's must be laughing their tits off at us. We can find a way to create division from just about anything. Negotiating with pilots must be like taking candy from babies. Just throw out a divisive idea and wait for the shit fight to commence.



Did anyone notice that Ryanair Captains have knocked back 5000 pounds to work on a day off. Fat chance of that happening here as we'd race to undermine each other.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
8th Nov 2018, 14:14
I've always found this very interesting. I think you'll find that those who are commanding KC-30's and similar sized jets, flying in some pretty "interesting parts" of the world, staying in usually worse accommodation and for months at a time are earning considerably less than their commercial counterparts.
I don't think it was implied they were. They do however earn whatever their employment contract that they agreed to sign says they earn. If it is not sufficient, or comes with some other unsavoury conditions, then they are free to leave as soon as their contract expires, which the vast majority seem to do.

ernestkgann
8th Nov 2018, 21:44
I don’t think you understand the concept of ‘service’ to others. Members of the ADF do.

benjam
9th Nov 2018, 01:29
Granted we aren't paying for it, but I'm yet to see any school in Australia that you are on a daily renewable contract with (maybe cadetships, I'm honestly not sure). Pilot's course was pretty brutal, we started with 18 and finished with 11. Given the context of how the ADF employs those skills they've invested time and money into giving you, I think it's a fair trade.

Don't sell yourself short, dude.

You are paying for it in:

Return of Service Obligation;
many, many interstate moves;
higher risk at work (bullets);
non-negotiable conditions;
forced family separation;
steep and difficult learning curve during training, with a two strikes and you're out mentality;
route marches, putting up with the crap without recourse, having to respond "yes Sir" when some absolutely hopeless dipsh!t gives you a totally absurd secondary duty, etc, etc.

benjam
9th Nov 2018, 01:30
...and your spouse and children are also paying for it in your many absences.

megan
9th Nov 2018, 04:36
benjam, no doubt things have changed since my time, pay was so low for some folks that they qualified for welfare (below poverty line I think was the issue), we payed into a superannuation fund but if you got out before retirement you got back exactly what you had paid in minus a handling charge - no interest earned. To top it off, if your family was in married quarters housing you had to get out if being sent into combat, you didn't requalify until you returned from your tour of combat. Oh, and you had to ask permission of the CO in order to get married, not a family friendly organisation was the military in my day.

benjam
9th Nov 2018, 06:17
Nor in my time. That why it gets my goat when I hear that I received "free" training.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
9th Nov 2018, 09:02
I don’t think you understand the concept of ‘service’ to others. Members of the ADF do.
At least until their Return Of Service obligation runs out.

Pinky the pilot
9th Nov 2018, 09:28
I have found this thread to be somewhat 'interesting. :hmm: Purely from the fact that some posters simply cannot pass up the opportunity to 'sink the boot in.' Feel free to apply your own interpretation of my observation. IDGAS!

However, as far as I'm concerned, a letter to the Editor in The Australian (in the 'last post' section, somewhat appropriately I would think!) on Thursday 8th November inst says it all....

My Father was a veteran and was always the first to board the aircraft and the last to disembark, but this was 1944, the airline was 466 Squadron, RAAF, the aircraft, a Halifax bomber and he was the pilot.
On his final trip, as usual he was the last out, but this time by parachute.

George Glass
9th Nov 2018, 09:46
Good grief. As if we need more proof that the internet empowers idiots.I seriously wonder how the current generation would have responded in 1939.Perhaps the moderators on this site should just give up on the quality implied by the title "Professional" pilots network.Its getting embarrassing. Maybe about time to give up on this site entirely. Anybody out there able to recommend an alternative?

ADawg
9th Nov 2018, 11:25
The military veterans I have had the pleasure to meet and grow up with do not seek priority boarding, or additional benefits from the government. And they certainly don't try and get into a pissing contest with their civilian counterparts on whose job is more dangerous.
I have never heard any of them complain about time away from families, superannuation, pay, marching or RoS obligations. They just got in and did it. What fine people they are/were.
Different generation perhaps. (WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam)