View Full Version : Pilot Shortages ?
swisstony
3rd Nov 2018, 15:15
I keep hearing more and more lately about pilot shortages in the corporate world.
Does anyone believe it can level out soon again or get worse as airlines continue to expand and provide greater career stability longer term than the corporate jobs do
Where are these shortages and in which types now and more importantly in the future. light, mid or large cabin ?
Thanks for any replies
His dudeness
3rd Nov 2018, 16:15
"Where are these shortages"
Good questions, I think they are like certain animals, one hears a lot of em, I have never seen a real one.
bafanguy
3rd Nov 2018, 16:19
There are certainly such allegations about a "shortage" here in the USA but I'm not sure what segment of corporate flying is affected. We have individual-owner Part 91, corporate-owner Part 91, Part 135 charter and fractional Part 91K. The airline hiring would appear to be drawing at least some pilots from the corporate world. How many ? Dunno...
I don't know enough about this area of aviation to comment. Maybe someone who does know will comment.
https://www.flyingmag.com/pilot-shortage-business-aviation
longlayover
4th Nov 2018, 13:14
There seams to be a shortage of first officers. Many first officers has been working for years on nice corporate jets only flying a few hours a month. They can see their upgrade are still years away, and are finding better opportunities with the airlines. Others that meet the requirements for upgrading will not change operator in hopes on internal upgrading, unless a new employer will hirer them for the left seat. In all cases the coporete sector are loosing first officers.
hans brinker
4th Nov 2018, 15:52
Left corporate in 2013, we had close to 400 pilots in 2010. We had a Facebook page, all posts were people looking for jobs. Every post now is “airplane looking for pilot “
bafanguy
4th Nov 2018, 17:57
Left corporate in 2013, we had close to 400 pilots in 2010.
hans b,
Was it a frax operator ?
I keep hearing more and more lately about pilot shortages in the corporate world.
Does anyone believe it can level out soon again or get worse as airlines continue to expand and provide greater career stability longer term than the corporate jobs do
Where are these shortages and in which types now and more importantly in the future. light, mid or large cabin ?
Thanks for any replies
there are enough pilots in general, just not enough that fulfill the "requirements" of the operators.
We [EASA] have f.ex. a charter A/C (light jet) in the company that is grounded about every second week bc not enough crew to sustain complete coverage. sales would charter it out non stop if they could.
in this example the company seems to rather prefer to lose money than investing in a type rating and some line training for a rookie pilot. Instead they are waiting for a rated & experienced FO that prob. will never show up.
That is not an issue on light jets only. Finding suitable FO candiates for GV is also not easy as long as nobody is willing to invest in type ratings.
To answer your question: Can be leveled out easily. Somebody just has to open its purse.
The Deec
4th Nov 2018, 20:35
there are enough pilots in general, just not enough that fulfill the "requirements" of the operators.
We [EASA] have f.ex. a charter A/C (light jet) in the company that is grounded about every second week bc not enough crew to sustain complete coverage. sales would charter it out non stop if they could.
in this example the company seems to rather prefer to lose money than investing in a type rating and some line training for a rookie pilot. Instead they are waiting for a rated & experienced FO that prob. will never show up.
That is not an issue on light jets only. Finding suitable FO candiates for GV is also not easy as long as nobody is willing to invest in type ratings.
To answer your question: Can be leveled out easily. Somebody just has to open its purse.
I agree totally, alot of qualified well capable pilots out there ready and waiting. Maybe need just a little additional training / recurrency to get them up to speed. A little investment on the companys behalf would be enough to get them into the right seat.
pilot dude
4th Nov 2018, 22:00
there are enough pilots in general, just not enough that fulfill the "requirements" of the operators.
We [EASA] have f.ex. a charter A/C (light jet) in the company that is grounded about every second week bc not enough crew to sustain complete coverage. sales would charter it out non stop if they could.
in this example the company seems to rather prefer to lose money than investing in a type rating and some line training for a rookie pilot. Instead they are waiting for a rated & experienced FO that prob. will never show up.
That is not an issue on light jets only. Finding suitable FO candiates for GV is also not easy as long as nobody is willing to invest in type ratings.
To answer your question: Can be leveled out easily. Somebody just has to open its purse.
i thinkt the time that pilots invest in a rating is definitely finished. It’s time the operators do this now!
TFE731
5th Nov 2018, 05:33
Hopefully things are changing regarding type-ratings. I was made redundant at the end of last year. Even though I had 8000 hours total and 6500 on biz jets I couldn’t get a lookin without the right type. The type I had was the Falcon 900EX (classic) which was regarded as old. In the end I applied to an airline. They were so eager they practically ripped my arm off ( and paid for my 737 rating)!
His dudeness
5th Nov 2018, 07:19
Hopefully things are changing regarding type-ratings. I was made redundant at the end of last year. Even though I had 8000 hours total and 6500 on biz jets I couldn’t get a lookin without the right type. The type I had was the Falcon 900EX (classic) which was regarded as old. In the end I applied to an airline. They were so eager they practically ripped my arm off ( and paid for my 737 rating)!
As they should have. This rating payment sh!t would be so easy to end, one stroke by the EASA which seems to be willing to regulate ANYTHING but this. Any company not paying up deserves to fail IMO. And any pilot willing to pay deserves to be unemployed.
OutsideCAS
5th Nov 2018, 08:19
Many employers are like horses with blinkers on - they cant see much further ahead than the immediate road they are plodding along on. They (employers) are also I suspect praying for some return of global recession that would return the employment market back in their favour when considering terms and conditions, whilst also hoping it does not affect their own business in any way and that they can take full advantage of the employment market again.
Brizeguy
7th Nov 2018, 21:07
It seems so dated to hire pilots on hours and not landings. Corporate world regularly fly three or four sectors a day and only put in five or six hours but quality hours. Bigger jets = bigger wages, makes sense I guess but it’s not long before less pilots are needed on the airliners and the guys flying will all be sat in an office. “Never gonna happen” I hear people say but if you’d said you don’t need a navigator or flight engineer in the 70’s people would’ve thought you were mad.
Advertise an FO position and you’ll have hundreds of applicants in minutes, requirements will change and everyone will keep flying but maybe those low hour wannabes paying for type ratings can keep their money for the next few years.
Miserable Old Git
10th Nov 2018, 12:42
A recruiter from another airline told me a month ago "we have no problem finding pilots, but a problem finding good pilots"
alkor
10th Nov 2018, 14:46
A recruiter from another airline told me a month ago "we have no problem finding pilots, but a problem finding good pilots"
define a "good" pilot.
Miserable Old Git
10th Nov 2018, 15:40
One with sufficient experience, who can speak English and is properly motivated.
josephfeatherweight
10th Nov 2018, 21:49
and is properly motivated. - to pay for their own type rating... That's the issue!
Think what the world would be like if everyone just stuck to their guns and refused to pay for a type rating?
I can assure you that ANY aircraft owner that owns an aircraft requiring a type rating can afford to pay for that type rating for the right individual - if they can't then they actually can't afford their toy...
Far Canel
11th Nov 2018, 01:11
Probably would motivate a pilot if Type rating was funded by company.��
RAFAT
11th Nov 2018, 17:39
Think what the world would be like if everyone just stuck to their guns and refused to pay for a type rating?
I stuck to my guns and refused to pay for a type rating, result = didn't get the job. Hey ho, moved on.
richardthethird
11th Nov 2018, 19:32
I recently heard that someone had applied for a job with us. He was offered 7/5. He said that he could not accept that. He then got a call saying OK we will give you full time. He went to Jet2 in the end, I think. Good luck to him!
josephfeatherweight
12th Nov 2018, 02:36
RAFAT - sorry to hear, but I applaud your stance.
The key word in what i said was "everyone".
His dudeness
12th Nov 2018, 10:07
I can assure you that ANY aircraft owner that owns an aircraft requiring a type rating can afford to pay for that type rating for the right individual - if they can't then they actually can't afford their toy...
You are dead wrong here. Thats exactly how many of em made their fortune. Do I need to explain Marx ?
Anyhuw, the "best" people in the trade are aircraft managers who take the T/R coming with an airplane and sell them to the crew.
And "everyone" ? Never happened, never will. Ask yourself, how Mr.O`Leary manages to keep his little exploitation scheme going ? Humans are overwhelmingly stupid when part of a mass....
josephfeatherweight
12th Nov 2018, 22:10
And "everyone" ? Never happened, never will. Ask yourself, how Mr.O`Leary manages to keep his little exploitation scheme going ? Humans are overwhelmingly stupid when part of a mass....
Yeah, I know - hence my "Think what the world would be like..."
Just some unrealistic optimism! :ok:
His dudeness
13th Nov 2018, 08:56
Just some unrealistic optimism!
I knew it, a bloody optimist ! Get lost !!! :)
Quote:Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/615025-pilot-shortages-2.html#post10308693)I can assure you that ANY aircraft owner that owns an aircraft requiring a type rating can afford to pay for that type rating for the right individual - if they can't then they actually can't afford their toy...You are dead wrong here. Thats exactly how many of em made their fortune. Do I need to explain Marx ?
Spot on :D:D:D
CaptainProp
7th Dec 2018, 12:11
IJM looking for rated G650 captain, 18/12 roster and they’re really offering an amazing package of €7000!!! Don’t step on eachother as you’re trying to get through the door for that interview!
#thisindustryisfd
Good luck!
CP
Deep and fast
7th Dec 2018, 17:56
IJM looking for rated G650 captain, 18/12 roster and they’re really offering an amazing package of €7000!!! Don’t step on eachother as you’re trying to get through the door for that interview!
#thisindustryisfd
Good luck!
CP
Thats not even Embraer Legacy 650 money...
Globally Challenged
8th Dec 2018, 04:13
It’s not much more than my RHS CL605 compensation ...
Atm there are a minimum of 5 European companies looking for G650 FOs and on top of that a couple of Cpt positions need to be filled. And that‘s just Europe!
I just hope nobody accepts an offer like that... absolutely no need, there are better options available.
His dudeness
8th Dec 2018, 11:08
I just hope nobody accepts an offer like that...
To say it with Aerosmith: Dream on.
To say it with Aerosmith: Dream on.
Two Austrian operators are hiring (a couple of weeks ago)and paying more for an FO...
There is no excuse for someone to sign on the dotted lign under those conditions!
WanderingAround
19th Dec 2018, 20:45
IJM looking for rated G650 captain, 18/12 roster and they’re really offering an amazing package of €7000!!! Don’t step on eachother as you’re trying to get through the door for that interview!
#thisindustryisfd
Good luck!
CP
The key word here is "offering". If you are a normal person and can negotiate, the salary can quickly go up to 10-12k and don't forget that on an Austrian contract you get your salary 14 times per year.
7K that is the day rate, right? :}
Private jet
20th Dec 2018, 13:26
And "everyone" ? Never happened, never will. Ask yourself, how Mr.O`Leary manages to keep his little exploitation scheme going ? Humans are overwhelmingly stupid when part of a mass....
I believe in psychology there is a well known principle. The "Wolf's dilemma".
bafanguy
28th Jun 2019, 09:03
Article about an interview with the head of a well known US corp pilot headhunter:
"Quickly to the subject at hand, she confirms the shortage is real, causing major disruptions within business-aviation flight departments, altering careers and 'is the No. 1 topic in every pilot lounge'.”
"Ultimately, she would like to see a national pilot training academy established with rigorous standards and financed by the aviation industry."
https://www.apiaviation.com/recruiter-barden-pilot-shortage/
His dudeness
29th Jun 2019, 07:55
Meanwhile I get a call from a call center, doing a survey on behalft of GAMA (IIRC), how would you like a single crew cockpit in your - 25 aircraft ?
Dead silence on my end.... "helllllloooo?" - "you realize you´re talking to a pilot".... "Umhhyeah, but we´d put up data link and have experienced pilots available 24H to help"... "allright, were do you get experienced pilots, who wanna sit in a box, apart maybe from medically disqualified ones and where do you get EXPERIENCED people from after the last 2 man cokcpit is gone ?" Dead silence on their end.
This shortage (who apparently exists in the US, over here there is none) is the last time, the pilots can get something outta their jobs. Aviation - jobwise - will be dead as a dodo in a few years. Ask the checkin folks, excuse the FORMER check in people. Loaders will be gone next and then flight crew. Last to retire will be SAFA/FAA-Checker....maybe time to sent a CV...
flyboyike
29th Jun 2019, 11:34
"Ultimately, she would like to see a national pilot training academy established with rigorous standards and financed by the aviation industry."
That gave me a chuckle. They can't even agree on a national curriculum, let alone an actual academy.
bafanguy
29th Jun 2019, 13:07
That gave me a chuckle. They can't even agree on a national curriculum, let alone an actual academy.
Yes, it would be a tall order. And the US airlines are not terribly interested in spending money on something like that since they haven't needed to...ever...and won't in the future either. The airline sector of US aviation would likely have to be the major contributor.