Tamworth selected for VA training school

[pinkpanther1]

https://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/5731815/breaking-virgin-to-set-up-world-class-training-school-in-tamworth/

It would seem Qantas aren't the only ones establishing flying schools. This was kept pretty quiet....

[Rated De]

https://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/5731815/breaking-virgin-to-set-up-world-class-training-school-in-tamworth/

It would seem Qantas aren't the only ones establishing flying schools. This was kept pretty quiet....

For all the fanfare, it appears VAH have actually quietly gone about setting up a training school.

Quite a contrast to the Fort Fumble approach of media spin, poorly disguised info-mercials and endless dribble.

[Derfred]

If you're going to do it, why do it quietly?

Unless it was a cloak and dagger approach to secure staff (or the location) out from under QF's nose.

This might be a good thing, a monopoly of the scale QF is proposing can't be good for either instructors or students.

[Kranz]

Cant help but think this is just another "piece of fluff" by Virgin where they'll take on 10-20 full fee paying 'cadets' each year... probably 90% female.

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

Who actually carries out the training for Virgin? Or do they have a Part142 AOC for initial training?

[normanton]

Game changing.

[hawk_eye]

The prospect of both the Virgin and QANTAS pilot training academies are certainly quite interesting, especially considering that the locations seem to be in regional cities.

The plus side for the airlines is obviously the amount of cash that the local / state governments are willing to throw in, plus any private money ala the Wagners in Toowoomba.

However I would imagine the practicalities of running flight training schools and trying to retain qualified (and more importantly experienced) instructor and engineering staff will quickly become apparent. Training 100 pilots a year will require in the order of 20-30 Instructors. I simply can’t see where these people will come from. All you have to do is look at CAE and their expansion into Tamworth - they are constantly advertising for Instructors up there, and I believe they are currently flying Flight Test Examiners from Melbourne to do student flight tests. The airlines would have to offer a fairly big carrot to retain staff (essentially they would have to offer positions at the end of a return of service), but I don’t see that as being likely.

It certainly will be interesting to see when these schools will get off the ground, and how they will be travelling 2-3 years into their operation.

[pilotchute]

Can somebody please tell me when it was decided that the already established Australian flying schools weren't producing enough CPL holders per year?

[Berealgetreal]

Need to keep supply up pilotchute as the alternative means increasing conditions. The old shake a tree and 50 pilots fall out.

[TBM-Legend]

Training means more jobs for pilots/engineers/ground staff/admin and money for the community. Not everyone wants to punt an airliner around the magenta lines for a living...

[tio540]

Can somebody please tell me when it was decided that the already established Australian flying schools weren't producing enough CPL holders per year?

Flying schools are producing plenty of CPLA’s, but few that can do a P chart correctly, do a basic radio call, or land an airplane.

[pilotchute]

Tio,
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.

Virgin and Qantas will skim the cream and GA will be left to pick up the pieces when dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150k you are not up to our standard.

[porch monkey]

Despite what they told you in school, there ARE winners and losers in life. Everywhere. Buyer beware.

[dr dre]

Tio,
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.


Got any evidence for that?

Like it or lump it if you want to get a start in one of the two major airline groups in Australia you are now probably going to have to attend either of their academies. I can’t see VA taking over an entire airport’s well established training facility to only churn out a handful of trainees per year. The total number of trainees that are being talked about would be more than enough to cover most of each group’s required numbers.

Will every graduate of one of these academies get a start in a major airline? No but most will.

Will every new hire at a major airline come from the respective academy? No but again most will.

There will still be an alternative path to enter a major airline but it will become very narrow after both academies are up and running.

[pilotchute]

Yes I do have evidence Mr Dre. I used to to do pre employment checkrides and my opinion was bigger the school the less the skills.

One large provider in Melbourne doesn't allow landing on dirt or grass. Tailwind landings or night PIC outside the circuit area. Most are thoroughly disappointed when they don't get into "insert name of airline" upon graduation.

We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.

As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.

[Seagull201]

Tio,
Unfortunately it's big vet fee help schools like the ones Qantas and Virgin are building that are the worst offenders for putting out bad product.

Virgin and Qantas will skim the cream and GA will be left to pick up the pieces when dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150k you are not up to our standard.



Quote: Virgin and QF will skim the cream?

QF just knocked back a couple of hundred good pilots, from all sorts of levels in general aviation, during the most recent pilot recruitment,
a few months ago.

Quote: Dozens of kids are told that even though you spent $150K you are not up to our standard?

A person cannot expect to be up to airline standard, after only, flying a Piper warrior, Cessna 172, Duchess/Seneca.
Where's the IFR, night, turbine, glass cockpit experience?

A CPL is just an entry level qualification.

Unless a person is airline sponsored, experience and hours are needed to get to bigger and better things.

[Seagull201]

Yes I do have evidence Mr Dre. I used to to do pre employment checkrides and my opinion was bigger the school the less the skills.

One large provider in Melbourne doesn't allow landing on dirt or grass. Tailwind landings or night PIC outside the circuit area. Most are thoroughly disappointed when they don't get into "insert name of airline" upon graduation.

We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.

As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.

Quote:
We will turn into the USA pre 2015 when any person with a CPL/IR could be a crew member on aircraft operated under part 121. People with a fresh licence were flying E170's around for $2000 a month.

You will find, that U.S regional airlines, always hired new F/O's, pre 2015, that had up to 800 hours experience.

It's rare, that someone got into a regional, with just the basic CPL/IR qualifications.

[Berealgetreal]

As another poster said, this isn't about any make believe shortage it's about controlling costs.

As is the sudden interest in Women in aviation. All under the guise of equity and diversity.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I personally suspect this is not an "Airline academy" so much as a branded retail exercise - another money making subsidiary business trading off the reputation of the parent company. These Big-Brand sausage factories will turn out big-brand sausages.
Then again, I am old and cynical.
I have been told that Qlink have gone to some effort to improve the product from FTA and nurture the best candidates to ensure good skills on graduation. Maybe I will be proven wrong.

[Derfred]

I would imagine there would be ways to secure sufficient supply of instructors if you possess they key to something they want.... e.g. an airline job after a couple of years instructing.

They could also possibly retain some of their graduates, put them through an instructors course with the “reward” of a better opportunity - e.g. straight into a jet rather than a turbo-prop afterwards, and a frozen seniority position.

That wouldn’t solve the issue of senior instructors and examiners, but simple $$$ could fix that.

Don’t forget, both VA and QF are doing this mainly to ensure pilot supply for their lower-paid subsidiaries, not so much their mainline jet operations. Mainline jet jobs will remain a large carrot if they need one.

As for standards, if the airlines have a vested interest in the quality of the graduates, this should be good for training standards shouldn’t it? Why would they want to churn out poorly trained pilots? Of course this may depend upon the terms of the contract they have with the contracted training organisation, and whether the airline maintains any involvement in the training and standards, and perhaps who foots the bill if a student needs extra training to meet a standard.

They would also get to choose the applicants. Any mug with $150K can do a CPL course, only to be told at the end of it that they are unemployable by an airline. Wouldn’t it be better to be told beforehand that you would never stand a chance of a job with an airline?

I also doubt that this will become the only route into the airlines. Why would they close other doors? It is very healthy for an airline to have a range of backgrounds in their pilots. For example, I just found myself considering the range of backgrounds in the QF management. The current head of training is ex-TN, the previous ex-Military, and I think the one before that may have been a cadet. People are people, whatever route you have taken, there will be a range of candidate quality.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

This is a clever exercise in having private and public airport owners, the applicant, and the taxpayer pay for many applicants to be qualified for a few jobs. This allows the companies to employ pilots who are DESPERATE to get that airline job and start paying back that debt, and will accept any conditions that allow them to start doing that, especially as the same system will be churning out equally qualified competition regularly. Supply and demand folks. Guarantee a supply of eager young hopefuls, and you can demand what you want.

[Derfred]

Of course it is! If supply/demand is working for you, milk it. If it's working against you, take charge of the supply, then milk it.

[TTY]

From the Northern Dailey Leader facebook site this morning , the deal with Virgin has fallen over. Surprise Surprise

[Green.Dot]

The first of many indicators that VA is in a serious world of hurt

[wheels_down]

I’d say it’s more they are in a soon to be situation of carrying a few hundred excess pilots (Tiger, 330) that are entitled to the position as per EBA when the job is available again.

They simply have no means to give these kids jobs or even have a job for them. Come back next decade

[Fieldmouse]

The Qantas hatred went away, as will half the VAR services to Tamworth mid March. This is what happens when no one signs contracts.

[belongamick]

The first of many indicators that VA is in a serious world of hurt

What the hell are you talking about.

It's hardly the first of many, it's one of the most recent of an extraordinarily long list that has been well known and talked about on this forum for years.

If anything it is a good sign that at least someone in management has realised that this school is something they don't need and has the potential for being another money pit. Even if this has happened out of neglect or incompetence, it's clearly a good thing considering the oversupply of experienced pilots the company has given it's current trading environment and announcements of future plans.